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	<title>Comments on: Barack Obama on Faith Based Initiatives</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/</link>
	<description>by Hemant Mehta</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:44:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Friendly Atheist &#187; The Religious Right Picks Up the Tab</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-217103</link>
		<dc:creator>Friendly Atheist &#187; The Religious Right Picks Up the Tab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 21:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-217103</guid>
		<description>[...] Obama may be expanding the Faith Based Initiatives office, but paradoxically, he is making it more secular than before. I [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Obama may be expanding the Faith Based Initiatives office, but paradoxically, he is making it more secular than before. I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Darryl</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-197296</link>
		<dc:creator>Darryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 23:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-197296</guid>
		<description>Ol&#039; Barack is beating them at their own game, and they can&#039;t stand it.  You see, the demigod that Republicans love to invoke--Reagan--made an art of organizing the Christian &quot;values&quot; voters into a reliable voting block for the Party.  The swing to the right has damaged the Party (see the real conservatives abandoning the Republican Party), nevertheless the Republicans need these voters to win, and Barack may be able to break up that block.  

This really is funny.  The Heritage types can&#039;t really press him too hard because they&#039;ll risk tipping their hand and show how that they&#039;ve been pandering and manipulating these idiots for years.  Hypocrisy of hypocrisies, they&#039;ll charge him with the very things of which they&#039;re guilty.  Hilarious.

If anyone wonders why our country is so fucked-up now, just examine how we choose our Presidents.  Pitiful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ol&#8217; Barack is beating them at their own game, and they can&#8217;t stand it.  You see, the demigod that Republicans love to invoke&#8211;Reagan&#8211;made an art of organizing the Christian &#8220;values&#8221; voters into a reliable voting block for the Party.  The swing to the right has damaged the Party (see the real conservatives abandoning the Republican Party), nevertheless the Republicans need these voters to win, and Barack may be able to break up that block.  </p>
<p>This really is funny.  The Heritage types can&#8217;t really press him too hard because they&#8217;ll risk tipping their hand and show how that they&#8217;ve been pandering and manipulating these idiots for years.  Hypocrisy of hypocrisies, they&#8217;ll charge him with the very things of which they&#8217;re guilty.  Hilarious.</p>
<p>If anyone wonders why our country is so fucked-up now, just examine how we choose our Presidents.  Pitiful.</p>
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		<title>By: David Crespo</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-197243</link>
		<dc:creator>David Crespo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 21:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-197243</guid>
		<description>If the Heritage Foundation is pissed, you must be doing something right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the Heritage Foundation is pissed, you must be doing something right.</p>
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		<title>By: siamang</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-196220</link>
		<dc:creator>siamang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 03:42:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-196220</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right, there aren&#039;t that many atheists. I didn&#039;t mean to imply that the bulk of giving was being done by taxes levyied upon atheists.  Merely that the PR value of these good works can be lessened by the knowledge that its the greater public at large doing the work, and not the partiular sect pouringthe soup.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, there aren&#8217;t that many atheists. I didn&#8217;t mean to imply that the bulk of giving was being done by taxes levyied upon atheists.  Merely that the PR value of these good works can be lessened by the knowledge that its the greater public at large doing the work, and not the partiular sect pouringthe soup.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Clawson</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-196039</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-196039</guid>
		<description>Siamang, it sounds like you&#039;re basically agreeing with what I suggest above, that:
&lt;blockquote&gt;this “loss leader” theory of yours describes more of an unintended extra benefit that churches receive from their charity work, not their actual driving motivation.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

However, what you said here is significantly overstated:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Given that a primary claim of most religions is that they have a better idea of living than your average nonbeliever, I find it laughable that their single strongest evidence of that…good works… is underwritten by atheists like me in a form of a forced tithe.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

According to Wikipedia &quot;in 2005 more than $2.2 billion in competitive social service grants were awarded to faith-based organizations&quot;. But surely this is a drop in the bucket compared to the total amount of charitable giving and work being done by religious people. According to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=4&amp;page=161&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this site&lt;/a&gt;, Americans gave over $260 billion to charity in that same year. Even if you subtract what was given to directly fund churches themselves (the site says $93 billion was given to religious organizations, though it doesn&#039;t specify how much of that the organizations themselves used for other charitable work), and subtract the percentage of that $260 billion (let&#039;s say 10%) which was given by non-religious people, that still leaves around $140 billion given by religious people to charity. Thus, in terms of pure numbers alone, to imply that the bulk of their good works are actually being underwritten by atheists in the form of government grants is rather overstating the case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Siamang, it sounds like you&#8217;re basically agreeing with what I suggest above, that:</p>
<blockquote><p>this “loss leader” theory of yours describes more of an unintended extra benefit that churches receive from their charity work, not their actual driving motivation.</p></blockquote>
<p>However, what you said here is significantly overstated:</p>
<blockquote><p>Given that a primary claim of most religions is that they have a better idea of living than your average nonbeliever, I find it laughable that their single strongest evidence of that…good works… is underwritten by atheists like me in a form of a forced tithe.</p></blockquote>
<p>According to Wikipedia &#8220;in 2005 more than $2.2 billion in competitive social service grants were awarded to faith-based organizations&#8221;. But surely this is a drop in the bucket compared to the total amount of charitable giving and work being done by religious people. According to <a href="http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=4&amp;page=161" rel="nofollow">this site</a>, Americans gave over $260 billion to charity in that same year. Even if you subtract what was given to directly fund churches themselves (the site says $93 billion was given to religious organizations, though it doesn&#8217;t specify how much of that the organizations themselves used for other charitable work), and subtract the percentage of that $260 billion (let&#8217;s say 10%) which was given by non-religious people, that still leaves around $140 billion given by religious people to charity. Thus, in terms of pure numbers alone, to imply that the bulk of their good works are actually being underwritten by atheists in the form of government grants is rather overstating the case.</p>
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		<title>By: PhillyChief</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-195848</link>
		<dc:creator>PhillyChief</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-195848</guid>
		<description>I find it amusing that on one hand &lt;i&gt;those&lt;/i&gt; christians he represents may be bad yet what &quot;self-serving&quot; thing are they trying to advance? Isn&#039;t it christianity? I would argue that although they may be principled, they subscribe to what they think are HIGHER principles, ones that supercede ones like Federal hiring practices or even a charity mission. You can&#039;t tell me these are just &quot;bad&quot; christians falling victim to ends justify the means thinking. Ends justify the means is at the core of the belief, reflected in story after story. 

Since their goals are not just self-serving, that they are to advance the faith, no doubt the &quot;good&quot; christians will turn a blind eye to the behavior, or downplay the violations because they&#039;d look at teh violators and think &quot;their hearts were in the right place&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it amusing that on one hand <i>those</i> christians he represents may be bad yet what &#8220;self-serving&#8221; thing are they trying to advance? Isn&#8217;t it christianity? I would argue that although they may be principled, they subscribe to what they think are HIGHER principles, ones that supercede ones like Federal hiring practices or even a charity mission. You can&#8217;t tell me these are just &#8220;bad&#8221; christians falling victim to ends justify the means thinking. Ends justify the means is at the core of the belief, reflected in story after story. </p>
<p>Since their goals are not just self-serving, that they are to advance the faith, no doubt the &#8220;good&#8221; christians will turn a blind eye to the behavior, or downplay the violations because they&#8217;d look at teh violators and think &#8220;their hearts were in the right place&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Pseudonym</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-195593</link>
		<dc:creator>Pseudonym</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 06:10:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-195593</guid>
		<description>Sure, I know what types you&#039;re talking about.  I&#039;m just commenting that self-serving people are found everywhere.

Philly&#039;s comment reminded me of all those no-bid contracts.  I can imagine someone from Blackwater or Haliburton saying the same thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, I know what types you&#8217;re talking about.  I&#8217;m just commenting that self-serving people are found everywhere.</p>
<p>Philly&#8217;s comment reminded me of all those no-bid contracts.  I can imagine someone from Blackwater or Haliburton saying the same thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Darryl</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-195577</link>
		<dc:creator>Darryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 05:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-195577</guid>
		<description>Pseudo, it didn&#039;t require editing.  I was referring to Philly&#039;s last post.  Come on, you know the types I&#039;m talking about.  They have no principles.  He was quoting this guy from the Center for Public Justice.  Even the name is meant to deceive--they&#039;re a Christian advocacy group, just like the FRC, and the even more deceptive Family Watch International. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pseudo, it didn&#8217;t require editing.  I was referring to Philly&#8217;s last post.  Come on, you know the types I&#8217;m talking about.  They have no principles.  He was quoting this guy from the Center for Public Justice.  Even the name is meant to deceive&#8211;they&#8217;re a Christian advocacy group, just like the FRC, and the even more deceptive Family Watch International.</p>
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		<title>By: Pseudonym</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-195572</link>
		<dc:creator>Pseudonym</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 05:17:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-195572</guid>
		<description>Darryl, here, I edited it for you:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Is anyone surprised that some &lt;b&gt;people&lt;/b&gt; don’t really give a flying flip about &lt;b&gt;[...]&lt;/b&gt; compliance with rules for eligibility for funds. They want what they want, and they don’t much care how they get it. Let’s hope that the rules are scrupulously enforced and these types are weeded out.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Nope, nobody is surprised at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darryl, here, I edited it for you:</p>
<blockquote><p>Is anyone surprised that some <b>people</b> don’t really give a flying flip about <b>[...]</b> compliance with rules for eligibility for funds. They want what they want, and they don’t much care how they get it. Let’s hope that the rules are scrupulously enforced and these types are weeded out.</p></blockquote>
<p>Nope, nobody is surprised at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Darryl</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-195563</link>
		<dc:creator>Darryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 04:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/01/barack-obama-on-faith-based-initiatives/#comment-195563</guid>
		<description>Is anyone surprised that some Christians don&#039;t really give a flying flip about separation of church and state, or compliance with rules for eligibility for funds.  They want what they want, and they don&#039;t much care how they get it.  Let&#039;s hope that the rules are scrupulously enforced and these types are weeded out.  I don&#039;t want to see any money going to groups like the friggin&#039; Family Research Council and dirtbags like Tony Perkins.  No more abstinence education--what a waste of money.  If the fundies want their kids to remain abstinent, let them see to that.  I want condoms and sound medical advice funded by my tax dollars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is anyone surprised that some Christians don&#8217;t really give a flying flip about separation of church and state, or compliance with rules for eligibility for funds.  They want what they want, and they don&#8217;t much care how they get it.  Let&#8217;s hope that the rules are scrupulously enforced and these types are weeded out.  I don&#8217;t want to see any money going to groups like the friggin&#8217; Family Research Council and dirtbags like Tony Perkins.  No more abstinence education&#8211;what a waste of money.  If the fundies want their kids to remain abstinent, let them see to that.  I want condoms and sound medical advice funded by my tax dollars.</p>
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