Comments on: Violations of Church and School http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/ by Hemant Mehta Tue, 14 Feb 2012 12:37:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Femdujour http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201888 Femdujour Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:20:07 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201888 Here's a more recent example: A few months ago, the Episcopal church where I sing had a guest choir for the Sunday morning service. A terrifically talented group from a West Virginia <em>public</em> high school. Apparently the conductor originally forbade the kids to take communion, probably fearing the church/state line. The rector of the church pointed out that all who attend his church are welcome at the communion rail and insisted that the students be allowed. Half the kids did take communion. At the end of the service, the same woman who was so careful before the service took the microphone to thank the congregation. She ended her spiel with "and praise be to Jesus our only Lord and Savior". I was floored. Here’s a more recent example: A few months ago, the Episcopal church where I sing had a guest choir for the Sunday morning service. A terrifically talented group from a West Virginia public high school. Apparently the conductor originally forbade the kids to take communion, probably fearing the church/state line. The rector of the church pointed out that all who attend his church are welcome at the communion rail and insisted that the students be allowed. Half the kids did take communion. At the end of the service, the same woman who was so careful before the service took the microphone to thank the congregation. She ended her spiel with “and praise be to Jesus our only Lord and Savior”. I was floored.

]]> By: Aph http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201841 Aph Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:46:45 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201841 @Alycia I also attended a elementary school in small town Ohio in the 80's. Your experience seems pretty similar to mine with the exception of the pastor actually holding bible studies in class. I suspect this is pretty common for small town Ohio. I have had the chance to go back to my old elementary for a visit. Same things are still going on now. @Alycia

I also attended a elementary school in small town Ohio in the 80′s. Your experience seems pretty similar to mine with the exception of the pastor actually holding bible studies in class.

I suspect this is pretty common for small town Ohio. I have had the chance to go back to my old elementary for a visit. Same things are still going on now.

]]> By: Bjorn Watland http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201526 Bjorn Watland Mon, 14 Jul 2008 03:37:52 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201526 If anyone is wondering whether something is unconsititutional or not, a good test is the Lemon Test. It's not used all of the time, but has been used often in the past to determine constitutionality regarding seperation of church and state issues. Be aware, however, that Boards of Education often have much more strict rules for religious conduct in schools. Generally, prayer is allowed in schools, as long as it is student led, and students are able to opt out and it doesn't provide significant disruption in the school day, like taking a half hour out. Here are the guidelines for the Lemon Test, which usually deal with the government funding religious education, which is currently happening in Washington DC. Check out secular.org for more information on that. 1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose; 2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion; 3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion. If anyone is wondering whether something is unconsititutional or not, a good test is the Lemon Test. It’s not used all of the time, but has been used often in the past to determine constitutionality regarding seperation of church and state issues. Be aware, however, that Boards of Education often have much more strict rules for religious conduct in schools. Generally, prayer is allowed in schools, as long as it is student led, and students are able to opt out and it doesn’t provide significant disruption in the school day, like taking a half hour out.

Here are the guidelines for the Lemon Test, which usually deal with the government funding religious education, which is currently happening in Washington DC. Check out secular.org for more information on that.

1. The government’s action must have a secular legislative purpose;
2. The government’s action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
3. The government’s action must not result in an “excessive government entanglement” with religion.

]]> By: Kelly http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201442 Kelly Mon, 14 Jul 2008 00:09:21 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201442 I only remember 2 things-in 8th grade science, I had a great teacher. He seemed ancient to me at the time, and was such a nice man. This would have been around 1983. On the first day he said something like "I'm a Christian man, and a science teacher. Some people's religious beliefs may differ from what I teach in this class, but my job is to teach you science." At the time I had no idea what he was talking about! The only religious thing I really remember was during my senior year(1988), they changed the baccalaureate service before graduation to something else. I seem to remember some people being in a huff over it, because they were no longer allowed to include prayer. I only remember 2 things-in 8th grade science, I had a great teacher. He seemed ancient to me at the time, and was such a nice man. This would have been around 1983. On the first day he said something like “I’m a Christian man, and a science teacher. Some people’s religious beliefs may differ from what I teach in this class, but my job is to teach you science.” At the time I had no idea what he was talking about!
The only religious thing I really remember was during my senior year(1988), they changed the baccalaureate service before graduation to something else. I seem to remember some people being in a huff over it, because they were no longer allowed to include prayer.

]]> By: SarahH http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201345 SarahH Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:07:38 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201345 Definitely plenty of creationism references in science, but all by a teacher who was very non-pushy and didn't care what you believed. One atheist/agnostic staff member (the rest were all casual or serious Christians) was often alienated and teachers insulted him in the presence of students, when he wasn't around. Any negative attribute of his teaching or personality was attributed to his atheistic "bitterness". Plenty of displays of religious belief by teachers in their workspace. Signs and frames with Bible verses on them, cross decorations, etc. Specifically Christian prayers at graduations and public outrage when the administration stopped leading it (the two top students could still "invite" everyone to a prayer anyway, which they did). Some is this stuff is kind of right on the line, but maybe not over it. I don't know whether any of it was or is unconstitutional according to the letter of the law. Definitely plenty of creationism references in science, but all by a teacher who was very non-pushy and didn’t care what you believed.

One atheist/agnostic staff member (the rest were all casual or serious Christians) was often alienated and teachers insulted him in the presence of students, when he wasn’t around. Any negative attribute of his teaching or personality was attributed to his atheistic “bitterness”.

Plenty of displays of religious belief by teachers in their workspace. Signs and frames with Bible verses on them, cross decorations, etc.

Specifically Christian prayers at graduations and public outrage when the administration stopped leading it (the two top students could still “invite” everyone to a prayer anyway, which they did).

Some is this stuff is kind of right on the line, but maybe not over it. I don’t know whether any of it was or is unconstitutional according to the letter of the law.

]]> By: Jennifurret http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201280 Jennifurret Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:13:49 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201280 The only thing that stands out to me probably isn't illegal, I just remember feeling awkward about it. It was on September 11th (during my 8th grade year). The first planes had crashed into the Twin Towers during my 2nd period Spanish class. We had been watching the news all class after a teacher came and told my teacher what was going on. It was more important to see what was going on in our country than to sit and study Spanish for an hour. My next class was Science (ironically). When we got in there, we begged our teacher to turn on the tv because we were all freaked out about what was happening and wanted to keep updated. She said no, that we should just go home and pray, and went on for her lesson for the day. I was a little more "wtf?" than the rest of the students, as I thought telling us to all go pray was a stupid thing to do (How the heck is *that* going to help, I asked myslef). Instead we were just grumpy until we got to our next class, where we watched the news some more. The only thing that stands out to me probably isn’t illegal, I just remember feeling awkward about it. It was on September 11th (during my 8th grade year). The first planes had crashed into the Twin Towers during my 2nd period Spanish class. We had been watching the news all class after a teacher came and told my teacher what was going on. It was more important to see what was going on in our country than to sit and study Spanish for an hour.

My next class was Science (ironically). When we got in there, we begged our teacher to turn on the tv because we were all freaked out about what was happening and wanted to keep updated. She said no, that we should just go home and pray, and went on for her lesson for the day.

I was a little more “wtf?” than the rest of the students, as I thought telling us to all go pray was a stupid thing to do (How the heck is *that* going to help, I asked myslef). Instead we were just grumpy until we got to our next class, where we watched the news some more.

]]> By: Jodie http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201121 Jodie Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:31:17 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-201121 Public high school, Christian nutter Spanish teacher (didn't cut her hair cuz Jesus doesn't like women with short hair. I'm not kidding). We had to watch Veggie Tales. There was one song with Spanish. We watched the entire video. At the time I also was a Christian nutter. But I still knew it was wrong. The same teacher later attempted to suspend me for wearing a "Lifesaver" condom teacher. Public high school, Christian nutter Spanish teacher (didn’t cut her hair cuz Jesus doesn’t like women with short hair. I’m not kidding). We had to watch Veggie Tales. There was one song with Spanish. We watched the entire video. At the time I also was a Christian nutter. But I still knew it was wrong. The same teacher later attempted to suspend me for wearing a “Lifesaver” condom teacher.

]]> By: Dylan Armitage http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-200997 Dylan Armitage Sun, 13 Jul 2008 08:33:30 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-200997 I went to parochial schools all the way until my freshman year in high school. First, one for preschool (if you can count that) and kindergarten, and another for 1st through 8th grade. The first one I went to I can't really say much about. I remember about four days total out of those years, and it's really not the same as grade school. For 1st through 8th I went to a Catholic school. And honestly, judging by everyone else's testimonials about all those violations, I had it pretty good. Granted, if it was a public school, it would have violated some laws, but it wasn't (obviously). Especially with attending Mass every first Friday of the month and on special days. (I was not, nor ever have been, Catholic.) However, when subjects were taught, there didn't seem to be a problem at all. Pretty much all of our books would have been used in a public school (save the religion book). When science was taught, there was no mention of "God did it" or "this is just a theory." (We also started out the year in the first chapter of the book, which made very clear the difference between the layman and the scientific definition.) There might have been some mention of the Dead Sea Scrolls when we were doing geology, but that was pretty much it. And when religion was taught, it was on its own. But also, Catholics can be pretty lenient when it comes to science. So perhaps my entire point is moot. I went to parochial schools all the way until my freshman year in high school. First, one for preschool (if you can count that) and kindergarten, and another for 1st through 8th grade.

The first one I went to I can’t really say much about. I remember about four days total out of those years, and it’s really not the same as grade school.

For 1st through 8th I went to a Catholic school. And honestly, judging by everyone else’s testimonials about all those violations, I had it pretty good. Granted, if it was a public school, it would have violated some laws, but it wasn’t (obviously). Especially with attending Mass every first Friday of the month and on special days. (I was not, nor ever have been, Catholic.)
However, when subjects were taught, there didn’t seem to be a problem at all. Pretty much all of our books would have been used in a public school (save the religion book). When science was taught, there was no mention of “God did it” or “this is just a theory.” (We also started out the year in the first chapter of the book, which made very clear the difference between the layman and the scientific definition.) There might have been some mention of the Dead Sea Scrolls when we were doing geology, but that was pretty much it. And when religion was taught, it was on its own.

But also, Catholics can be pretty lenient when it comes to science. So perhaps my entire point is moot.

]]> By: Jacqueline http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-200921 Jacqueline Sun, 13 Jul 2008 04:32:39 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-200921 Graduated from a small town HS in Michigan in '05. At graduation there is always 2 student-led prayers. After 9-11 we had a prayed during a football game, and maybe one over the PA at school. I had an English teacher who wouldn't have us read "Jesus Christ" (i.e. in vain) out loud from books, but was ok with any racial slurs the author used. In biology we were assured at the beginning of the class that we would be presented both Creationism and evolution, but the only notes my teacher wrote the whole time were "life begets life." He then pontificated about intelligent design (<em>before</em> it was cool!) and religious parables for the rest of the year. Graduated from a small town HS in Michigan in ’05. At graduation there is always 2 student-led prayers.

After 9-11 we had a prayed during a football game, and maybe one over the PA at school.

I had an English teacher who wouldn’t have us read “Jesus Christ” (i.e. in vain) out loud from books, but was ok with any racial slurs the author used.

In biology we were assured at the beginning of the class that we would be presented both Creationism and evolution, but the only notes my teacher wrote the whole time were “life begets life.” He then pontificated about intelligent design (before it was cool!) and religious parables for the rest of the year.

]]> By: David W. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-200915 David W. Sun, 13 Jul 2008 04:15:52 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/12/violations-of-church-and-school/#comment-200915 Prayers before football games, prayers before graduation, the usual. Oh, and of course having to say the pledge of allegiance. That's a big violation. Prayers before football games, prayers before graduation, the usual.

Oh, and of course having to say the pledge of allegiance. That’s a big violation.

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