In my youth as a catlicker we were told that we were “rebellious and brave” to pray before a meal because so few people did it. This sets up the martyr complex when we are young.

In Christ, I pray for your soul. May God send you His Holy Spirit.

Olivier , french catholic.

I think a better thing would to do a blind taste test.

Not a clever suggestion. If you had done your homework you would know that in the Middle Ages this was debated and it was reasoned that the wafer, even though it’s physical attributes do not change, what the wafer is actually becomes the “Body of Christ”. This is theology and if you think it is unbelievable then you are taking the Protestant view that the wafer just a symbol. Don’t waste your energy picking apart Christianity, enough time has been spent by the some of the greatest minds of the last 2000 years doing that. If you are interested you can read their books.

I think people are getting agitated about this because it is an affront to Christianity. Think about how you would feel if the guy had, say, blown up a Buddhist statue just to make a point about his lack of belief in that philosophy. (c.f. Buddhas at Bamyan).

Part of the Christian meta-meme is persecution: that Christians will be persecuted for their faith. If you do this kind of thing you are just reinforcing their faith. Ignoring them, not showing up at church, living a good righteous atheist life is far more damaging to Christianity.

According to Meyers, there have been some flowing in the other direction. So presumably the balance of the universe is restored and we can all get on with things other than defending grand silliness.

What if one of PZ’s radicals decide to storm a church with a weapon simply to procure a host and to make a point?

I presume you’re familiar with the acronym ‘W.T.F?’

All the threats of violence thus fur have been in one direction.

But don’t get all pissy and start making rationalized justifications when someone calls you a dick.

I think PZ wished all that people did was call him a dick. Death threats are something else entirely.

I think one of the basic problems is that many believers aren’t used to having their beliefs challenged. Of course the people from your own church share your beliefs. For most other people, it’s somewhat of an unwritten rule that you don’t critique others’ beliefs, it’s what’s considered civil behavior. So when many believers enter an atheist forum, they suddenly get all these rude requests to explain why exactly they believe whatever it is they believe. I can understand that that might seem uncivilized and quite shocking at first, because it breaks this unwritten rule. However, it is perfectly understandable from the viewpoint of an atheist: no belief is sacred, no belief is beyond criticism. It’s fine to have a belief, but you’d better be prepared to back it with good arguments if you want to discuss your belief in an atheist forum.

Another common mistake is assuming atheists are only atheists because they just don’t know about the Bible, or have never heard the great arguments that the believers were taught in church. However, many atheists were raised religious, and have only become atheists after detailed studies of the Bible. Also, believers will regularly offer arguments that they may think will sway the atheists’ opinion, without realizing that they are only repeating arguments that have been heard and refuted many times before. For example, you’ll probably understand that a simple “The Bible says so” or “I just know it” will not be received well, but you still see them pop up regularly. If you want to argue about your beliefs, you’ll have to understand why these arguments won’t do. A little knowledge of the basic logical fallacies won’t hurt either.

That brings me to the next point: trolls. I don’t think you’re really aware of the exact meaning of the word “troll”, as I don’t think it applies to your behavior here (if only because very few real trolls will announce they’re trolls). “Troll” is not a derogatory term for a theist, or for someone that simply doesn’t agree with the regulars. You are not really a troll, as far as I can tell; while you don’t agree with most people here, you seem genuinely interested in a discussion. A troll, on the other hand, only (or at least mostly) posts to get people angry or disrupt the discussion. For instance, they’ll rarely refute arguments, but instead will change the topic all the time, or refuse to state a clear position, nitpick about definitions of words, or any number of other tactics. Sadly, any blog or forum that has a topic that is even remotely controversial will have a good number of trolls visiting regularly, often masquerading under different aliases, sometimes even pretending to share some of the ideas of the regulars. Trolls come in various forms, shapes and sizes and can be really annoying and tiresome.

Even more sadly, sometimes it’s difficult to separate the trolls from people with a real interest in discussion. At some point, people give up giving new posters the benefit of the doubt. It’s unfortunate, but it gets understandable after you’ve dealt with a few real trolls.

I hope this has given you some insight in why atheist discussions may seem somewhat inhospitable to believers. Remember, as long as you’re in the discussion with a will to learn new things, and willing to have your beliefs challenged, you’ll be fine. Everyone else, sorry for the long, slightly OT post

It seems there is some concern in your community about how the ‘outside’ world may view you as a group in light of PZ’s comments and those who posted on his blog. Being an outsider myself, and after viewing countless blogs and commentary regarding PZ’s comments, i would have to say that your group is likely to be viewed as unkind, hate-filled, pompous and just plain mean. If you honestly and sincerely cared about open dialog with those with differing views, then maybe it’s not optimal to be so hate-filled with constant unkind comments?
Some feel the moderate view isn’t helping your cause. It’s hard to say as i have yet to find one thread on any of the atheistic forums i have viewed where a comment was made without some ‘dig’ and cruel remark toward a non atheist. I said nothing unkind or cruel in any of my posts, yet it took no time at all for someone here to ridicule me and suggest i am schizo. You are absolutely entitled to that belief. It is your right to feel this way about me. All i was doing is sharing what this whole thing might feel like to an outsider who does not share the mob mentality of killing PZ. As i said, all groups have their radicals, but even a 2yo knows you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
FWIW, NOBODY is expecting you to respect BELIEFS that you don’t share. We are asking instead to respect your fellow human beings REGARDLESS of their beliefs. As Ron pointed out, there may very well be someone out there who doesn’t see the humor/satire/whatever in PZ’s comments to go into a church and procure a Consecrated Host. It is not very reasonable in my opinion to dismiss the possibility that violence could occur, whether at the church i attend with my daughter or some other church. If PZ had a caring gene he would make it crystal clear that he does NOT want radicals barging into Catholic Churches procuring Hosts where an ‘innocent’ could be hurt. Maybe all those death threats he is getting are just radicals who mean no harm, but just what if one of them acts on his threat? Why am i schizo because i fear there COULD be violence during a church service because of PZ’s comments but it’s perfectly reasonable and sane to think a radical believer could kill PZ? What if one of PZ’s radicals decide to storm a church with a weapon simply to procure a host and to make a point? What end does any of this serve then? I have no trouble at all respecting atheists as fellow human beings even if i don’t respect their beliefs.