A Child Gets Debaptised

I CAN SEE!

I like that girl already.

That “de-baptism” bit WAS much better than I’d expected. The whole thing was a good time.

I was withholding judgement until de-baptism was explained a little better… and now I LOVE it!!! There needs to be more of it!

The officiant was funny.

That’s hilarious

How endearing.

I’m a little torn…I mean, it’s funny and the guy was cracking me up…but someone is gonna come off pissed off!

@Fabulously in the City

only if they came out of it with split ends.

Evaporating the Baptism water is genius.

Sorry…it being cute of funny or entertaining does not overcome the fact that a group of atheists are behaving as if there is baptism in place oin these people that needs to be removed. I am sorry…maybe it is just me, but when I became an atheist…the last thing in the world I wanted was to have rituals or any other such mularkey wrapped around it. I suppose there are those who are doing this against religion rather than a personal enlightenment or moment of clarity. But that is what this shold be called…’a group af atheidsts who wnat to publically make fun of religon”…ok, I will buy that. Cute and funny. But to wrap this around people coming out, kind of cheapens the actual event that took place in their lives…and rather than focus on the truth, they focussed right back on the bullshit that had them deluded. Beccause…if there is no god…there is nothing in place to remove. In fact, since there is no god, your orignal baptism was just you getting wet. To even pretend there is something to remove is intellectually deficient.

Sorry…cute and funny…yes. Pointless…absolutely. Should have celebrated what they accomplished rather than what they walked away from…because their new belief is not about being against religoon, it is about being able to see the world for what it is. Their baptism should have been regarded as nothing at all and not worthy of even revisitng.

It’s just a joke Larry. Calm down.

Are they going to get de-confirmed? De-communioned? De-saved? Maybe they can all form a circle and un-pray? Maybe they should un-pray over every meal and before bed at night. Why stop at baptism…lets really give it to religion. We can ordain un-priests…after all, the person will have to have the right authority. Robes…good touch…perfect…every religion needs robes.

Leave the bible as it is though…is condemns religion better than it supports it.

Are the American Atheists going offer these ritual services for everyone? Kind of a de-religion? Excellent!

How can atheists expect to keep religion out of government and schools, when we cannot even keep it out of our own celebrations such as this. If you want to give these people what they need…discuss their atheism in terms of what it is and means, and not in context of what they left behind. Atheism is not about being non-religious…it is about being about seeing the word as it is.

Uh… I think you’re taking this way too seriously Larry. It looks like they were just goofying around. I can’t imagine an atheist would seriously believe they need to be de-baptized. They’re just screwing around.

Looks very funny!!

When are you coming to Mexico to do something like that?

I was at the party yesterday, and it was a lot of fun! I had been a little worried about the de-baptism being negative and unnecessary, but when I actually saw what they were doing, I just had to participate. It was like a comedy skit with audience participation. Edwin was hilarious! After some clever latin gibberish, which I REALLY hope was captured on film, a bunch of us got in line to be blow dried. We were then given a cracker with peanut butter and honey on it because, as it says in the Bible, man cannot live by bread alone. LOL! I can’t wait to see more pictures and videos. It was a blast!

I love that it was in Westerville Ohio – that is where I attended our church youth camp as a child. The irony!

Yes…i suppose i over reacted…to a point.

I still stand by my comments with respect to the perception it gives others though. That is what irked me about it.

I understand it could be a fun and funny way to kind of get over it. The more I sat ehre and thought about the video, the more I think the idea grew on me. So I beg the pardon of anyone who may have felt my comments strong…they were not in the right context.

I am just very concerned with the way atheists are perceived. Sometimes, as is the case here, my initial reaction is because i see something tha tI know will me miscontrued and used to support their claims of us. I cannot help but believe that a picture of a leader of an atheist organization wearing a robe performing a de-baptism, regardless of the actual intent, will be used to show us as a religion, or some other such nonsense. But then, they will always find something to do that about…and I certainly think that the the ‘ritual’ was funny and would possibly be good for those leaving religion. (I was also forgetting how I felt right afterwards…very differently than I do now…and I would have loved this, to be honest).

So, while I believe the perception could be bad…it it harmless otherwise…and fun. I am getting to be such a crumudgeon. lol.

Sorry…it being cute of funny or entertaining does not overcome the fact that a group of atheists are behaving as if there is baptism in place oin these people that needs to be removed.

Actually, Larry, they made of point of it having “exactly as much effect as the original baptism.” And the “ceremony” managed to be both ridiculous (there was some pig latin in there, I think, and some silly stuff) while also having everyone taking part affirm that we are rational beings who consider ourselves responsible for ourselves.

First, let me say that I did find this amusing. I don’t want it to look like I am without a sense of humor…

Also, obviously, I don’t know this girl’s back story… But, doesn’t having children participate in this kind of thing make us responsible for the same “crimes” we accuse fundies of? Is it not indoctrination (or at least have the potential of becoming indoctrination) of children in the same vein as baptizing children, or referring to them as “Christian children” or “Muslim children?” Can we now call this girl an “atheist child?” Is that any less reprehensible?

Again, I have no way of knowing this girl’s story. It very well could be that her parents are fundies and she threw off the yoke of fundamentalism, in which case, party on!

This mock ceremony trivializes baptism, and in so doing, trivializes itself. Such atheists give the impression that they are a bunch of iconoclastic jokers who love to ridicule the serious beliefs of others. I can anticipate the response of believers to this kind of thing, and it doesn’t reflect well on all the thoughtful, positive, friendly, persuasive types of atheists. The circus that is American fundamentalist religion isn’t defeated by the added clowning of atheists.

First, let me say that I did find this amusing. I don’t want it to look like I am without a sense of humor…

Also, obviously, I don’t know this girl’s back story… But, doesn’t having children participate in this kind of thing make us responsible for the same “crimes” we accuse fundies of? Is it not indoctrination (or at least have the potential of becoming indoctrination) of children in the same vein as baptizing children, or referring to them as “Christian children” or “Muslim children?” Can we now call this girl an “atheist child?” Is that any less reprehensible?

Again, I have no way of knowing this girl’s story. It very well could be that her parents are fundies and she threw off the yoke of fundamentalism, in which case, party on!

I agree. this is what I was wondering as well.

I got to give Larry some credit.

Very rarely does anyone ever own up and say, “Yeah, you’re right, I may have overreacted.” Especially on comment posts. So, cheers Larry.

Oh and the De-baptism is hilarious.

Whaaaat?!

I live in central Ohio and I didn’t know that this shindig was going on. No one informed me, or else I would have been there with heathen bells on!

Dang.

Also, obviously, I don’t know this girl’s back story… But, doesn’t having children participate in this kind of thing make us responsible for the same “crimes” we accuse fundies of? Is it not indoctrination (or at least have the potential of becoming indoctrination) of children in the same vein as baptizing children, or referring to them as “Christian children” or “Muslim children?” Can we now call this girl an “atheist child?” Is that any less reprehensible?

I had the same thought. Aren’t these people “child abusers” according to Richard Dawkins’ definition?

Hey folks,

How many atheists does it take to tell a joke?

33!

4 to tell the joke.
12 to wonder if joke telling sends the “wrong message” to the religious majority.
7 to argue back and forth about why humor is or is not an appropriate mind-changing tool.
3 to sternly suggest that religion is NOT a laughing matter.
4 to self-righteously assert that children NOT be let in on the joke. Because that is child-abuse.
2 to intone darkly about how this “doesn’t reflect well” on atheists.
1 to imagine that the joke actually will metamorphisize into the thing being parodied, and that atheism will then make a religion of itself, with all the exact same trappings, robes, songs and candle-lighting.

Mike wrote:

I had the same thought. Aren’t these people “child abusers” according to Richard Dawkins’ definition?

Hi Mike.

The number of times you bring that up, when nobody here brings it up in reference to children being raised religious… it makes me think… you really WANT that argument, don’t you? And yet nobody is willing to defend the point. Plenty of us here have gone out of our way to reject it, including posters in this thread.

You really hope that people will all say that raising a child religious is child abuse, so that you can have that argument, don’t you?

Or does it only apply when a kid goes to an atheism meeting? Hell, I’ve gone to baptisms. OF BABIES!!! And I NEVER ONCE CALLED child-protective services!! The HORROR!!!!!

Hi Siamang,
I understand it’s a joke. Like I said, I thought it was funny. But at the same time, if this girl was brought to this party (I wish I was there!) by her parents, are they not doing the same thing religious people do when they bring their children to Bible camps?

And I disagree with Dawkins that labeling children is a form of child abuse. I was baptized and brought up Christian as well, but I had a very happy childhood. Definitely no abuse!

As far as I see it, you’re saying two opposite things here, Toby. Which is what I’m complaining about with Mike.

You seem to be simultaneously saying:

1 Bringing kids to church/religious camp ain’t a bad thing.
2 How could those horrible people bring their kid to an atheist party?!?!?

So which is it? Is it bad to take your kid to a thing like this, or not? I don’t think it’s a big deal at all. I’ve brought my child to the baptisms of other children. I’ve let her witness the HORROR!!! No big whoop.

Isn’t it possible that her parents are exactly like you are, thinking it’s no big deal to involve your kid in your beliefs, especially if you make it clear that they have the ability and freedom to participate or not, believe or disbelieve and follow their own conscience, even to a religious belief, if that’s what they desire?

Heck, I’ve brought my child to church. She knows bible stories. She tells me she believes in “God, and Buddha and science.” She doesn’t know the word “atheism.” She’s five.

That said, I’ve seen people do some pretty twisted mind-fucks on their kids, using religion as a power trip. It’s messed up. And religion gets WAY too much of a free pass on messing with kids minds, and using the unequal power between adults and children to prey on young minds. I remember when I was a kid, there was some predatory proselitysing going on with me, though I was too naive to understand what was happening at the time.

I don’t think that’s happening to this girl in the video.

My apologies. I went back and read my comment and I see how it’s confusing.

What I should have said and what I meant was that I am uncomfortable with children going to events like this or Bible Camp. To me, they are comparable events with different belief systems. But, I don’t think that it amounts to child abuse. It’s not that severe. Hope this clears that up. Again, my apologies for not being more clear.

Isn’t it possible that her parents are exactly like you are, thinking it’s no big deal to involve your kid in your beliefs, especially if you make it clear that they have the ability and freedom to participate or not, believe or disbelieve and follow their own conscience, even to a religious belief, if that’s what they desire?

Absolutely. Which is why I prefaced my original comment by saying I didn’t know the girl’s situation. If this girl is there on her own accord (which, admittedly, she seems to be), it’s fun and entertaining. If her parents didn’t give her a choice, that would be where I would have a problem.

Well then, I think what can be said about this is that different people have different feelings along a range of how one’s children should be raised when it comes to questions of religion.

Which is something worth noting for Mike Clawson: We are not all lockstep same-think Dawkins-bots. Some people think one way, some people think another.

I think it’s cool that people think all different ways on this.

Praise Jesus! Amen! I agree with you!

It’s child abuse no matter what the content if 1) the content is false and 1) the child is subjected to “mind-fucks” (as Siamang calls it) in the imparting of it.

For example, teaching your child a philosophy of peace and love, in a loving and open way, is not abuse; teaching your child a philosophy of us versus them in the name of some angry monarch in the sky, in a fanatical and fearmongering way–that’s child abuse.

Oh, how different my life would have turned out if I had been raised by Massachusetts liberals!

Nothin’ like a bit of ‘piss taking’ to spread joy!
Looks like great fun. I’m sure that the kids shown in the clip got the joke too.

Good to see that no crackers got damaged, at least.

I don’t think it’s child abuse, or even indoctrination, necessarily. I do think it sends the child mixed messages. They really should have thought of that, and I have a problem with the fact that they apparently allowed their anger toward religion to override their common sense and consideration for the child’s emotional well-being.

The whole thing was pointless and silly. And using the word “diabolicum” – I mean, really.

They really should have thought of that, and I have a problem with the fact that they apparently allowed their anger toward religion to override their common sense and consideration for the child’s emotional well-being.

Hands up everyone who thinks that participation in this humorous skit harms a child’s emotional well-being, AND is a parent?

The number of times you bring that up, when nobody here brings it up in reference to children being raised religious… it makes me think… you really WANT that argument, don’t you? And yet nobody is willing to defend the point. Plenty of us here have gone out of our way to reject it, including posters in this thread.

You really hope that people will all say that raising a child religious is child abuse, so that you can have that argument, don’t you?

No, I don’t want that argument because I’ve already had it here, multiple times, which means that there have, in fact, been folk here (more than a few IIRC) who will defend Dawkins’ assertion that raising a child with religion is child abuse. You may not agree, and you’ve stated that, repeatedly, but don’t pretend that no one here thinks that way.

I don’t know whether the people who agree with Dawkins on that are any of the same people who are laughing and applauding this ceremony (I personally see nothing wrong with it and think it’s all a bit of good fun), but I would hope that if they are they’d at least be honest about their own hypocrisy. Of course for those who disagree with Dawkins, it’s a moot point, thus I wasn’t really talking about any of you. If the shoe doesn’t fit, then there’s no reason for you to get bent out of shape when someone points out those for whom it does.

I think the thing to do would be to ask the question: “does anyone who thinks that involving kids in a church skit is child abuse think that THIS is not child abuse when it’s their own beliefs being acted out”?

Otherwise it just feels to me like you think you caught us (collectively) in a contradiction.

Could it really be possible that the parents of that child also take her to church sometimes, and are open and broad-minded about religion? In fact, probably far, far more broad-minded, considered, nuanced and pluralistic than about a billion people on the planet who have a direct line to the One True God (may those who consider anything otherwise be smote!)?

Note to self: I must begin to take my daughter to non-Christian religious experiences. She’s only been to Catholic, Anglican and Methodist services. Still hasn’t been to an atheist meeting. She better not get videotaped while there, because then my parenting skills would be fodder for internet discussions. No such sturm und drang if I filmed her in a church.

Where’s that double-standard again?

Raise your hand if you think participating in a Renaissance Fair skit is going to cause a child emotional distress? Cause them to run off and join the fair? I would. Trying to compare a (probably) one time party skit with a lifetime of religious indoctrination is comparing apples and oranges.

While this doesn’t ruffly my feathers as badly as it does Larry Huffman’s, I’m inclined to see his side of it. I see no positive value in this stunt. And even if that’s debatable (or at least subjective), I think that the sheer pointlessness and self-contradiction of holding such an event is hard to deny. Are we next going to establish an atheist creed to be recited? No wonder so many religionists can’t grasp the notion of atheism not being a religion when atheists act like it’s a religion as well! ;^D

Seriously, “de-baptism” is achieved when someone who has been baptized by a minister fully realizes that it means no more than when he gets his hair washed by a stylist. There is no ceremony or ritual to undo the original one, because the original one never did anything in the first place — so the neutralization of baptism is a fait accompli.

I do understand that this is intended to be mass satire (no pun intended), and I can concede the humor potential for it in a comedy skit or something; Carol Burnett or the Two Ronnies (or possibly even the Monty Python crew) could have run with this and done an awesome job! But as an actual organized event, it just seems to undermine atheist credibility more than it does anything else. Whatever point there is to this seems lost in that noise.

~David D.G.

Otherwise it just feels to me like you think you caught us (collectively) in a contradiction.

I never said anything about “catching” anyone. In fact the only person I referenced in my original post was Dawkins himself. I think you’re being overly sensitive about this. Again, if the shoe doesn’t fit then I wasn’t talking about you in the first place, so you can stop acting like I was addressing you personally.

I never said anything about “catching” anyone. In fact the only person I referenced in my original post was Dawkins himself.

… and by implication the parents of the child in this video. I realize that as a parent, if my child was videotaped taking part in any such skit at an atheist meeting, I’d hear about it from you, but if I uploaded my video (that actually exists) of my child singing “Away in a Manger” standing next to the creche at the Methodist Church connected to her preschool, you wouldn’t even ask the question about Dawkins.

Maybe it’s just that as a parent I’m more touchy about people judging other people’s parenting choices based on a 20 second youtube.

@Mike Clawson,

Aren’t these people “child abusers” according to Richard Dawkins’ definition?

If Dawkins really says that teaching children one’s faith is child abuse, then he’s wrong. (I don’t know what he says and I don’t really care)

BUT, raising a child as an atheist, or even liberal believer, isn’t the same as teaching them about Hell or the superiority of one group of people over others.

In my view, the problem with teaching children beliefs is not that they might be incorrect, but that they might be incorrect AND harmful.

But, then even that doesn’t constitute “abuse” necessarily. Abuse is something that has to be determined on a case by case basis. Indoctrination of harmful beliefs is only one of many possible ways to screw up your child.

My wife, a grown woman, sometimes gets worried that she “won’t make it” to heaven. Irrational fear of a fate that’s out of your control and dependent on the whims of a capricious, all-powerful being is emotionally damaging and the opposite of empowering. Can you think of an example where not believing in god would ever produce the equivalent?

Siamang, I understand about being tired about hearing again about the Dawkins/child abuse thing but there have been people on this site who seemed to think that any form of religious instruction was child abuse (regardless of what Dawkins may have meant by his remark).

I realize that as a parent, if my child was videotaped taking part in any such skit at an atheist meeting, I’d hear about it from you.

Why do you think Mike C. would object when he said this:

I personally see nothing wrong with it and think it’s all a bit of good fun.

You also said:

Maybe it’s just that as a parent I’m more touchy about people judging other people’s parenting choices based on a 20 second youtube

Or simply based on the fact that they send their kids to Sunday School or celebrate their bar/bat mitzvah.

You both seem like you would be very good dads, from what I have seen in your comments. I guess that daddies can play mommy wars too, but from experience I can say its a waste of time!

Why do you think Mike C. would object when he said this:

I personally see nothing wrong with it and think it’s all a bit of good fun.

I don’t think he would voice objection. But I do think he would “notice” and do what he did on this thread, which is to use it as an occasion to talk about wondering if atheists have double-standards on this.

Which is a way to intone general dissatisfaction with the child partaking in it without actually voicing dissatisfaction.

And I’m pretty sure he’s not going to a bunch of youtube videos with kids singing religious Christmas carols and “wondering” if those kids are getting a pluralistic, open, considering view on religious viewpoints other than their parents’.

I mean, I guess atheists just can’t have our kids do something with us that pertains to atheism. Even those who claim not to have anything against it really seem to “notice” it when we do.

Polly, teaching your child incorrect notions about ultimate matters–life, death, heaven, hell, sin, judgment, “human nature,” God, the Devil, God’s will, salvation, damnation, etc., especially when it gets mixed with politics–is child abuse because it does harm them to some degree.

Definitely lots of opinions going either way about this event. I suppose I could understand the viewpoint that this may undermine the credibility of atheism. At the same time, I imagine some people view atheists as “too serious”. Who knows? I guess it depends on what media people have or haven’t seen.

As for child abuse, I think it’s really a matter of degree. Children tend to take after their parent’s in many respects, so you can’t really condemn them for fulfilling a basic facet of human nature. However, once you start causing emotional trauma, threatening your child, forcing them to conform to a belief they oppose, then I think you are edging close to grounds for child abuse.

Personally I think a good parent provides opportunities for a child to learn and grow and lets them evolve their own sense of self. I also think that there is a big difference between someone with a bad parenting method, and a child abuser.

Siamang – what I hear in Mike C.’s comments is not so much as a rush to judge as residual anger/hurt at having been judged.

I do agree that in general, parents who are deemed to be outside the community norm are likely to get random judgments from strangers. Many people felt compelled to tell my husband and me that we were committing “child abuse” by putting our child in a bike trailer.

I do agree that in general, parents who are deemed to be outside the community norm are likely to get random judgments from strangers.

I guess that’s what I’m reacting to. I’m just waiting for the first person to lip off on me about not getting my daughter baptized or whatever.

What’s a “bike trailer?”

I don’t think he would voice objection. But I do think he would “notice” and do what he did on this thread, which is to use it as an occasion to talk about wondering if atheists have double-standards on this.

Which is a way to intone general dissatisfaction with the child partaking in it without actually voicing dissatisfaction.

And I’m pretty sure he’s not going to a bunch of youtube videos with kids singing religious Christmas carols and “wondering” if those kids are getting a pluralistic, open, considering view on religious viewpoints other than their parents’.

I mean, I guess atheists just can’t have our kids do something with us that pertains to atheism. Even those who claim not to have anything against it really seem to “notice” it when we do.

You’ve got my reaction completely backwards Siamang. As I said before, I have absolutely no problem with these kind of ceremonies. I don’t care if they’re atheist, or Christian, or Wiccan, or whatever. I completely support the right of parents to raise their own children according to their own beliefs, even when I disagree with them. In a free and pluralistic society I don’t see how we could do otherwise. I was not judging those parents one bit, and I had no “dissatisfaction” with the child partaking in it.

The only person I have a problem with is Dawkins and those who agree with him that these sorts of ceremonies are in fact child abuse. If I was judging anyone, it was those (like Dawkins) who would look at this YouTube video and judge the parents, or else those who wouldn’t judge this family simply because they’re atheists but would hypocritically judge an equivalent religious ceremony. It’s the hypocrisy and double standards that bug me (not to mention the immense disrespect it shows to real victims of actual child abuse to equate baptizing or de-baptizing with the genuine trauma that they’ve suffered). If I had my way we wouldn’t be judging either side for stuff like this. By all means, have your atheists ceremonies. I’m all for it.

Darryl asked:

What’s a “bike trailer?”

A little cart you that hitches on to your bike. Not just for kids of course.
Have you really never seen one?
One thing that really used to tick me off was this ancient van, the kind that would never pass a smog test, which always seemed to pass me when I was huffing and puffing up a hill on my way to my daughter’s pre-school. It would blow exhaust in my face and display its self-righteous little Earth First! bumper sticker: “Love your mother – don’t become one.”

Responding to another of your comments:

Teaching your child incorrect notions about ultimate matters–life, death, heaven, hell, sin, judgment, “human nature,” God, the Devil, God’s will, salvation, damnation, etc., especially when it gets mixed with politics–is child abuse

Oh god. I don’t know if all/any of my notions on these things are correct. And I definitely mix them up with politics all the time. And no one around me, including my daughter, is in any doubt how I feel about them (on any given day.) And since she still considers me an “authority” (hah! that’ll change soon) I am “teaching” them to her. How will I live with the guilt. Oh well, at least she’ll have plenty to talk about with her therapist.

“Teaching your child incorrect notions about ultimate matters–life, death, heaven, hell, sin, judgment, “human nature,” God, the Devil, God’s will, salvation, damnation, etc., especially when it gets mixed with politics–is child abuse”

Oh god. I don’t know if all/any of my notions on these things are correct. And I definitely mix them up with politics all the time. And no one around me, including my daughter, is in any doubt how I feel about them (on any given day.) And since she still considers me an “authority” (hah! that’ll change soon) I am “teaching” them to her. How will I live with the guilt. Oh well, at least she’ll have plenty to talk about with her therapist.

Ditto that.

“Teaching your child incorrect notions about ultimate matters–life, death, heaven, hell, sin, judgment, “human nature,” God, the Devil, God’s will, salvation, damnation, etc., especially when it gets mixed with politics–is child abuse”

Oh god. I don’t know if all/any of my notions on these things are correct. And I definitely mix them up with politics all the time.

I’m hoping that your “notions” are to identify them as fantasy rather than to scare your children by painting them as fact.

Can I get a ditto?!

Ditto.