“Teaching your child incorrect notions about ultimate matters–life, death, heaven, hell, sin, judgment, “human nature,” God, the Devil, God’s will, salvation, damnation, etc., especially when it gets mixed with politics–is child abuse”

Oh god. I don’t know if all/any of my notions on these things are correct. And I definitely mix them up with politics all the time.

I’m hoping that your “notions” are to identify them as fantasy rather than to scare your children by painting them as fact.

Can I get a ditto?!

“Teaching your child incorrect notions about ultimate matters–life, death, heaven, hell, sin, judgment, “human nature,” God, the Devil, God’s will, salvation, damnation, etc., especially when it gets mixed with politics–is child abuse”

Oh god. I don’t know if all/any of my notions on these things are correct. And I definitely mix them up with politics all the time. And no one around me, including my daughter, is in any doubt how I feel about them (on any given day.) And since she still considers me an “authority” (hah! that’ll change soon) I am “teaching” them to her. How will I live with the guilt. Oh well, at least she’ll have plenty to talk about with her therapist.

Ditto that.

What’s a “bike trailer?”

A little cart you that hitches on to your bike. Not just for kids of course.
Have you really never seen one?
One thing that really used to tick me off was this ancient van, the kind that would never pass a smog test, which always seemed to pass me when I was huffing and puffing up a hill on my way to my daughter’s pre-school. It would blow exhaust in my face and display its self-righteous little Earth First! bumper sticker: “Love your mother – don’t become one.”

Responding to another of your comments:

Teaching your child incorrect notions about ultimate matters–life, death, heaven, hell, sin, judgment, “human nature,” God, the Devil, God’s will, salvation, damnation, etc., especially when it gets mixed with politics–is child abuse

Oh god. I don’t know if all/any of my notions on these things are correct. And I definitely mix them up with politics all the time. And no one around me, including my daughter, is in any doubt how I feel about them (on any given day.) And since she still considers me an “authority” (hah! that’ll change soon) I am “teaching” them to her. How will I live with the guilt. Oh well, at least she’ll have plenty to talk about with her therapist.

I don’t think he would voice objection. But I do think he would “notice” and do what he did on this thread, which is to use it as an occasion to talk about wondering if atheists have double-standards on this.

Which is a way to intone general dissatisfaction with the child partaking in it without actually voicing dissatisfaction.

And I’m pretty sure he’s not going to a bunch of youtube videos with kids singing religious Christmas carols and “wondering” if those kids are getting a pluralistic, open, considering view on religious viewpoints other than their parents’.

I mean, I guess atheists just can’t have our kids do something with us that pertains to atheism. Even those who claim not to have anything against it really seem to “notice” it when we do.

You’ve got my reaction completely backwards Siamang. As I said before, I have absolutely no problem with these kind of ceremonies. I don’t care if they’re atheist, or Christian, or Wiccan, or whatever. I completely support the right of parents to raise their own children according to their own beliefs, even when I disagree with them. In a free and pluralistic society I don’t see how we could do otherwise. I was not judging those parents one bit, and I had no “dissatisfaction” with the child partaking in it.

The only person I have a problem with is Dawkins and those who agree with him that these sorts of ceremonies are in fact child abuse. If I was judging anyone, it was those (like Dawkins) who would look at this YouTube video and judge the parents, or else those who wouldn’t judge this family simply because they’re atheists but would hypocritically judge an equivalent religious ceremony. It’s the hypocrisy and double standards that bug me (not to mention the immense disrespect it shows to real victims of actual child abuse to equate baptizing or de-baptizing with the genuine trauma that they’ve suffered). If I had my way we wouldn’t be judging either side for stuff like this. By all means, have your atheists ceremonies. I’m all for it.

I do agree that in general, parents who are deemed to be outside the community norm are likely to get random judgments from strangers.

I guess that’s what I’m reacting to. I’m just waiting for the first person to lip off on me about not getting my daughter baptized or whatever.

I do agree that in general, parents who are deemed to be outside the community norm are likely to get random judgments from strangers. Many people felt compelled to tell my husband and me that we were committing “child abuse” by putting our child in a bike trailer.

As for child abuse, I think it’s really a matter of degree. Children tend to take after their parent’s in many respects, so you can’t really condemn them for fulfilling a basic facet of human nature. However, once you start causing emotional trauma, threatening your child, forcing them to conform to a belief they oppose, then I think you are edging close to grounds for child abuse.

Personally I think a good parent provides opportunities for a child to learn and grow and lets them evolve their own sense of self. I also think that there is a big difference between someone with a bad parenting method, and a child abuser.