To use a culinary metaphor, I think religious belief for a lot of people is like the fancy food processor on the top shelf of the cupboard that you only dust off for special occasions. In this context, due to the marvelous flexibility of human language, when I hear Richard say, “I don’t believe in food processors,” I don’t conclude that he believes food processors don’t exist, but rather that he is handy with a knife and is not convinced that food processors are worth the time or trouble.

Monkeymind,

I LOVE that metaphor. Anything to do with food!! Very sharply put.

Too bad that the food processor on the shelf is most likely an imitation.

Have you ever considered the idea that it’s not the food processor or the knife that’s the driving force that produces the results? Worshipping and/or criticizing the processor is what we often end up doing, though. I think we can end up with gourmet meals regardless of what tool we use.

My wandering mind again… just throwing a thought out there… (sorry)

To use a culinary metaphor, I think religious belief for a lot of people is like the fancy food processor on the top shelf of the cupboard that you only dust off for special occasions. In this context, due to the marvelous flexibility of human language, when I hear Richard say, “I don’t believe in food processors,” I don’t conclude that he believes food processors don’t exist, but rather that he is handy with a knife and is not convinced that food processors are worth the time or trouble.

Monkeymind,

I LOVE that metaphor. Anything to do with food!! Very sharply put.

Too bad that the food processor on the shelf is most likely an imitation.

Have you ever considered the idea that it’s not the food processor or the knife that’s the driving force that produces the results? Worshipping and/or criticizing the processor is what we often end up doing, though. I think we can end up with gourmet meals regardless of what tool we use.

My wandering mind again… just throwing a thought out there… (sorry)

I’m late to the party but I have to agree with Darryl that I’m getting a “I know logic and I’m not afraid to use it!” vibe from Gary.

Gary did say one thing that intrigued me: “Does this mean that Christians are atheists whenever they’re not thinking about God?”

I think that in fact a lot of believers are functional atheists. Their belief in God does not affect their behavior or decision-making in any meaningful way. This was the point, as far as I remember, of Nietzsche’s parable about the death of god. The man who discovers that god is dead is overcome with grief and runs into the marketplace shouting “God is dead!” However, the people in the marketplace couldn’t care less whether god is dead or not, because they never really believed that he was alive. What matters to them is keeping up appearances.

To use a culinary metaphor, I think religious belief for a lot of people is like the fancy food processor on the top shelf of the cupboard that you only dust off for special occasions. In this context, due to the marvelous flexibility of human language, when I hear Richard say, “I don’t believe in food processors,” I don’t conclude that he believes food processors don’t exist, but rather that he is handy with a knife and is not convinced that food processors are worth the time or trouble.

I suppose I agree with Austin Cline on this issue, but the whole “belief vs. lack of belief” discussion can get pretty sticky. Here are some points:

1. For me atheism is just a disagreement. A believer makes a claim about God and the atheist will say “I don’t believe that.” Weak atheists aren’t making any claims themselves. Disagreement does not necessarily imply that the one doing the disagreeing is promoting the opposite position. Some folks will say that’s just agnosticism, which is fine too, but I’ve found that people misunderstood me when I said I was an agnostic. They thought I was claiming it’s impossible to know things about God (which I disagree with) or that I was somehow on the fence about Jesus (the idea that an agnostic just hasn’t made up their mind yet.)

2. As usual a lot hinges on the particular god under discussion. Some descriptions of God are self-contradictory and a good case can be made for the positive claim of such a god’s nonexistence. I prefer the ignostic position. The ignostic has no idea what people mean by the word “God”. If I ask you, “Do you believe Zrefyup exits?” how can you even answer that question with a yes or no? I know definitions of God exist (the omnipotent omniscient creator of the universe) but I feel such definitions are empty, and no more useful than the new-agers use of the word “energy”.

3. Although I said I agree with Austin Cline, and therefore Richard’s comments above, I do still have some trouble with the whole “lack of belief” line. How do we differentiate between people who lack a belief in X because they have never heard of it, and people like weak atheists who have heard of God? (Eg: Do you believe Mary Jones exists? But I don’t know who she is, so I guess I lack that belief(??) Can I lack a belief in the nebulous concept of gods in general, but believe in the non-existence of specific gods like Yahweh or Allah? Or isn’t my belief that believers are mistaken also a belief?

Besides all that, I also have trouble with the English grammar behind the two forms: “believe X is not” and “don’t believe X is”. This issue usually comes up with atheists claiming “I don’t believe God exists” is different from “I believe God doesn’t exist”. Sometimes I get it, but then sometimes it seems they are the same. Is there really a difference between “I believe Mary doesn’t live in Seattle” and “I don’t believe Mary lives in Seattle”? Is it true that “don’t believe” = “lack of belief”? It doesn’t seem right.

What do you think?

Gary, you remind me of me 25 yrs ago. But, I’ve changed (somewhat) for the better. I still have one flaw though: I can’t resist speaking my mind. I’m not as tolerant of stupidity as Richard, so I’ll say what everyone’s probably been thinking:

Gary, “you ignorant slut,” you’re an insecure, pedantic, fatuous, quarrelsome bore who’s probably had an intro. to logic course or PHI 101 and thinks that that qualifies him to bother people with his pointless banter.

I notice, Darryl, that you are quite bold in your willingness to assert your opinion as to what “everyone’s probably been thinking,” in the absence of evidence as to what all but a few people are thinking. Is this a positive assertion that shifts the “burden of proof” to you to demonstrate that everyone has actually been thinking what you claim they have been thinking? Or does the use of the word “probably” hedge your bet sufficiently as to relieve you of that intolerable burden?

Allow me to hypothesize that “everyone” who says that he is a weak atheist is “probably” in fact a strong atheist who is so frightened of, or offended by, the word “believe” that he wants to take the position that he believes precisely nothing. Note Richard’s eccentric definition of the word “belief”: “the persistent assumption of the truth of something in the absence of evidence.” How about “The psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true” instead? Seems to me that’s a better definition.

You are so funny.

Gary, “you ignorant slut,” you’re an insecure, pedantic, fatuous, quarrelsome bore who’s probably had an intro. to logic course or PHI 101 and thinks that that qualifies him to bother people with his pointless banter.

What I really find disappointing is the elitism that seeps into atheist communities, such as people who say or imply that because they make the positive claim that there is no god, that they are more genuine atheists than those other “insufficient” (read inferior) atheists who only lack belief in god and who hardly have the right to even call themselves atheists.

I get the distinct impression, Richard, that you think that weak atheism is an intellectually superior position to strong atheism. David D.G. certainly made such a claim upthread:

Some atheists go on to make a positive claim that no gods exist, but this is not the case with all atheists (and in my opinion it is a logically untenable position as well as simply an unnecessary one).

Was this an expression of weak atheist “elitism”?