A Personal Story About Proposition 8

Frequent commenter Larry shared this story with me via email and I felt it should really be passed along. If you get a chance to read the whole thing, you can see some of the core problems with people who are against gay marriage. It has much less to do with their faith than they think. It’s more about ignorance and fear of the unknown:

We live in Simi Valley, CA… and are paying very close attention to Proposition 8 out here. Prop 8 is forwarded by religious groups and it seeks to place a ban on gay marriage in California, where it is currently legal.

I am married and have 4 kids… one of whom is serving in the Navy now (yes, he is an atheist in a foxhole, so to speak). My kids living at home are 15,16 and 18. Just fyi to set this up.

So this weekend, my wife and all three of my kids had decided to make signs against Prop 8 and go stand on the corner of a busy intersection where a lot of demonstrating, both pro and con, has been taking place. My youngest is 15… and he is very well aware of the proposition. He understands what it is about and on his own can express reasons why he is against it, as can my older children. You see, their grandmother, my mother-in-law, is a lesbian and has lived with a woman since before they were born. Even back when I was a fundy, I had a different view of homosexuality because of this. My kids have grown up quite comfortable around homosexuality and none of them have been infected with ‘gayness’…

The intersection has become quite a spectacle, attracting local news vans, etc… as both sides try to out-demonstrate each other. Each weekend the same scene has played out. Early in the morning, a dozen or so middle aged or older people with small children in tow show up trying to support Prop 8 with their church printed signs. By about mid-day the sides are even, though the anti-8 side has large colorful home made posters, and very loud late teens and early twenties protesting. By about 3 PM, there are about 3 or 4 dozen people against 8, usually including a cross dresser or two…and there is one or two pro-8 people left there screaming and yelling.

My wife went with my kids just to be with them as the protested. My kids, like so many young people, are quite captivated by the entire election and all it entails. I love it… I love young people paying attention and using their own brains to think through all of this. It is a very healthy sign for a future, no matter how bad things look now. But, I could not get in the way of their obvious passion for the issue. So off they went.

While there, I have to state, my wife and kids got called some of the most terrible names you can imagine. People would walk up and get in their face and just become vulgar and abusive. My family’s strategy was to either just smile or laugh at them. My 18 yr old daughter began asking them what church they go to when they would say something particularly abusive, and they would get flustered and stomp away while she laughed at them. But, my wife’s report is that she has never seen Christians (very loudly telling everyone they were Christian and that everyone else was going to hell!) behaving so badly. So bad that they felt they have to say derogatory things to the kids and others who were holding signs. One guy in particular told my wife she was going to hell for raising a bunch of “faggots.” When she pointed out that none of her kids were gay… he asked what she was doing out there? She told him they simply cared about their fellow Americans having their rights trampled on by intolerant Christians. He shut up and went away. It seems that when they get nastiest, reminding them about their Christianity had an impact.

So, a guy came walking by with a very religious Yes-on-8 sign and he had two very small girls in tow, each holding Yes-on-8 signs. My wife guessed they were ages 6 and 8… roughly. The dad was shouting some pretty nasty stuff as he wallked by my family… but all was ok. Suddenly these two teenage boys came up and ripped the signs his little girls were carrying out of their hands and ripped them up… then ran off. The man was obviously upset and began yelling obscenities at everyone before calling the police.

The police came and went… afterwards, my wife tore one of her signs in half and using the back and some markers she had, made two small ‘Yes on 8″ signs and took them over to the little girls, who the man still had out there, even though my wife reports they were absolutely terrified when it happened. She felt so bad for them even being out there. She gave them their signs and she said they were happy and thanked her. The man then came over and got in my wife’s face about the whole thing, blaming her for the signs being ripped in the first place. (no one in my family knew or was with the two boys who did it… in fact they were not even protesting, they were just walking by). He then began grabbing my kids signs and ripping them up and screaming at them. They said he looked like he would explode. This after my wife tried to make things better for his poor little girls who had no business being out there at that age anyway. My wife does not judge people based on their views… she still wanted to help the little girls feel better, and thought the boys who did what they did were very wrong to do so.

He ranted at them using terrible language, but all the while telling them god hated them and they would be sent to hell… while his two little girls watched. He launched into a tirade about homosexuality, using lots of choice and colorful language to describe what two men would do together. He ranted and ranted… again… all while his little girls watched. And listened.

The television ads being run by the Yes-on-8 side seems to focus on one (bogus) point, and that is that schools will now teach gay marriage to their kids. This particular man kept telling my wife that he does “not want schools teaching my girls about faggot marriage” he kept saying to her. All the while, there are his girls, ages 6 and 8, holding signs about an issue they cannot possibly understand, and hearing far more about homosexuality from their own father than they would ever have from any school. So, since then I have watched… and sure enough, in every group of Yes-on-8 protestors and sign holders, there is a family or two with young kids. I suppose they think that it shows that people with family values support the issue… but in reality it shows people who obviously have no problem exposing their kids to the issue, so long as their kids land on the right side… which is the intolerant and hateful side.

If you need more reason to vote against Proposition (h)8, watch this (anti-gay-marriage) video below:

Now, watch this “revised” version of the same video:

If you’re in California, here’s hoping you’re voting No to Proposition 8.

Or else, you could vote with what seems to be the “Christian” side.

I wouldn’t do that if I had the choice.

I prefer the side that supports equality and love.

Apparently, we can’t rely on churches to lead the way in this battle.

(Thanks to Marla for the videos!)

  • Catherine

    Larry,
    Thank you for sharing this and for protesting against 8. I don’t live in California, and in fact I have never even visited California, but like many gay people living in the US, I have been watching the fight over proposal 8 rather closely.

    I’ve read several stories similar to this, about people holding signs against 8 being called all sorts of vile things by the anti-gay marriage folks.

    Please know that for gay folks like me, it means so much to know that there are so many straight folks out there who are willing to take a stand for equality.

    Voters in my state approved a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage in 2004. Even though I knew before the election that it was expected to pass by a wide margin, it still felt like a kick in the teeth when it happened.

  • Epistaxis

    I like what the guy in the blue shirt says at about 0:50 – if Prop. 8 fails, we’ll start looking like bigots! Can’t have that!

  • Maseca

    Larry,

    Thank you for sharing your story.

    My family (husband and daughter) live very close to Simi Valley (Westlake Village to be exact), and it heartens me to know that we are not the only freethinking, equality minded family in Ventura County. It sure feels like we are sometimes though.

    Thank you and your family for what you’re doing!

    Amber

  • PrimeNumbers

    Standing up for the rights of others, is great. Good work. However I’m appalled at the Christian behaviour. It’s funny that the one thing the persecuted find it hard to learn, is not the forward the persecution onto others. Some learn it, but not the Christians it seems.

  • NeuroLover

    Stories like that always make me sick to my stomach. Good for you for setting good examples for your children and acting more like Christians than the Christians.

    Loved the revised video, too. Hopefully we as a country can start getting over the whole gay marriage issue soon and get on to fixing actual problems.

  • Midnighter

    The woman at the end almost made my head explode. Religious types stopping gay people from marrying is an issue of control? Well, I guess so. But I think she has it the wrong way around. The way she says it is so odd. It’s like gay people are getting married at her or solely to spite her. I’d laugh if it weren’t so sad.

  • Beijingrrl

    I seriously think these people don’t understand that legal marriage has nothing to do with religion. Some of them seem to be dumb enough to think the only way you can be married is if you have a church ceremony.

    Perhaps the only way to convince them is to make everybody have to go to a government office and fill out the paperwork in person. See. This is what makes you legally married, not the expensive ceremony you just paid for or a blessing from your preacher.

  • Daniel H.

    How about in that second video, instead of filling in “inter-racial marriage”, fill in “three-way marriage”, or “marriage between a child and an adult”, or “marriage between a human and a dog”, or “marriage between 5 men and 6 women”?

  • Aj

    Compare homosexual relationships to pedophilia and beastiality. How Christian of you, you’re a terrible person.

  • Catherine

    I am so incredibly sick of people comparing gay marriage (or homosexuality in general) to things like pedophilia and bestiality. It’s insulting and really quite frustrating.

  • Daniel H.

    Compare homosexual relationships to pedophilia and beastiality. How Christian of you, you’re a terrible person.

    Why draw the line at homosexuality? What if the child and animal consent? On what grounds can you object? Where does this thing end?

    I am so incredibly sick of people comparing gay marriage (or homosexuality in general) to things like pedophilia and bestiality. It’s insulting and really quite frustrating.

    Why is it insulting? Are you being a bigot against pedophiles and people who engage in bestiality? I’m rather tired myself of homosexual marriage being compared to interracial marriage.

  • http://thebitchreport.blogspot.com/ Milena

    Interracial marriage = two consenting adults

    Same-sex marriage = two consenting adults

    Animal/Child-marriage =/= two consenting adults

    You’ve set up a false comparison. How exactly would an animal consent to marriage, anyway?

  • hambone79

    danielH:

    slight problem with youre logic there buddy, children cant consent to sex or marriage, animals cant consent either and there are already laws on the books for bigamy. and i guess you doint believe in life liberty and happiness for all either, or is it just for people who agree with you that have that right.

  • Daniel H.

    Animals (at least relatively intelligent mammals) typically make their objections (to something like sexual advances) known by things like backing away, kicking, snarling, etc… As for marriage, we keep dogs as pets without their “consent”, calling it “marriage” would not be much of a practical difference. Someone could make a case if they wanted to, and there are people who want to. Someone in India married a snake a while back, it was in the news.

    Why does it matter that it’s a consenting “adult”?

    And what about polygamy?

  • Daniel H.

    slight problem with youre logic there buddy, children cant consent to sex or marriage,

    Yes they can. They might not have the most mature judgment about whether they should, but then neither do some adults.

    there are already laws on the books for bigamy.

    Laws can be changed…. there’s law’s about homosexual marriage as well. Aren’t you advocating those be abolished?

    and i guess you doint believe in life liberty and happiness for all either, or is it just for people who agree with you that have that right.

    Everyone who is not a complete anarchist sets some kind of limit on liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

  • http://thebitchreport.blogspot.com/ Milena

    In the US, as in most other countries, you need to sign a marriage contract to prove consent. Seriously, let go of the animal comparison – it’s weak and it’s hurting the argument you’re trying to make.

    It matters that it’s an adult, because this protects children from being exploited and forced into marriage.

    As for polygamy, marriage is still between two individuals. We’re talking about not discriminating based on these two people’s sexual orientation and granting them all the government/institutional benefits enjoyed by heterosexual married couples. Polygamy is more complicated, because it’s nothing like the two-person structure of marriage. We can’t really presume that polygamous marriages will not become legal in the future, but I fail to see how polygamy relates to homosexuality.

  • Daniel H.

    In the US, as in most other countries, you need to sign a marriage contract to prove consent. Seriously, let go of the animal comparison – it’s weak and it’s hurting the argument you’re trying to make.

    Well, I haven’t heard a convincing answer, but alright.

    As for polygamy, marriage is still between two individuals. We’re talking about not discriminating based on these two people’s sexual orientation and granting them all the government/institutional benefits enjoyed by heterosexual married couples. Polygamy is more complicated, because it’s nothing like the two-person structure of marriage. We can’t really presume that polygamous marriages will not become legal in the future, but I fail to see how polygamy relates to homosexuality.

    It relates because when you move beyond God’s establishment the whole thing has become arbitrary. The number becomes arbitrary, the gender, the age, the species… there is no logical stopping point. Some people are sexually attracted to animals. Some people have sexual attraction to many different individuals. Some have sexual attraction to children. When people start worshiping their “rights” and make themselves the standard for right and wrong you leave yourself with no consistent grounds to object, really, to anything, beyond your opinion.

  • Aj

    It relates because when you move beyond God’s establishment the whole thing has become arbitrary. The number becomes arbitrary, the gender, the age, the species… there is no logical stopping point.

    Like the last time. This is complete bullshit. God is not a logical stopping point, there’s no logic to God as a giver of morals. “Whatever God says is right” is just as arbitrary as anything else. It’s worse because you don’t know the mind of God, you’re basing the morals of God on complete bullshit as well. Revelation… Holy Books… please.

    What if the child and animal consent?

    Equivocation, you know that’s not the type of consent we’re looking for, it doesn’t just mean willingness to accept.

  • http://gretachristina.typepad.com/ Greta Christina

    Larry, thanks so much for taking the time to tell your story.

    A quick but important note to everyone who supports same-sex marriage: Please, don’t just vote No on 8. Please, if you can, donate money to No on 8. Even a small amount. The Yes on 8 campaign is enormously well-funded, and they’re running a very widespread, unbelievably sleazy ad campaign that’s full of outright lies. We need to be able to counter with our own ads, to get the accurate information about this proposition and its effects out there.

    And Daniel H, your argument is lousy. It’s the same old tired “there’s no basis for making moral judgments without God” argument. And it’s bull. Evidence shows that we have basic moral values hard-wired into us by genetics, and we then apply those values based on our experience and perceptions and social norms. We can judge each question about marriage — interracial? same-sex? number of partners? age of consent? — on its own merits.

    Slippery slope arguments are almost always weak. If you can’t make a better argument against same-sex marriage than “it will eventually lead to X form of marriage,” then you don’t have a good argument. If you oppose X, then oppose X. Don’t try to destroy my marriage.

  • Autumnal Harvest

    I’m rather tired myself of homosexual marriage being compared to interracial marriage.

    Yes, I can imagine you are. It’s pretty much a perfect analogy, and I can see how you would be disliked being exposed as a bigot.

    I don’t know why you all are bothering to argue with Daniel. If he actually can’t see the difference between two consenting adults, and an adult and a child, then he’s not going to understand no matter how carefully you explain it to him. You might just as fruitfully spend your time explaining to a 1950′s segregationist why allowing marriage between whites and blacks wouldn’t result in the complete downfall of society.

  • http://amiable-atheist.blogspot.com amiable

    “What church do you go to?”

    I love that. Great response.

  • http://www.bernerbits.com Derek

    You might just as fruitfully spend your time explaining to a 1950’s segregationist why allowing marriage between whites and blacks wouldn’t result in the complete downfall of society.

    Or my wife’s coworkers. Seriously, sometimes I hate Tennessee.

  • noodleguy

    The fundamental problem with all arguments against gay marriage is that they depend on the view that there is something ‘wrong’ about being gay. There’s not, therefore there is no reason not to allow gay marriage.

    I would ask the father of the two girls whether he felt that two people who he probably will never meet or speak to getting married will be a worse impact on his daughter’s well being than a father who screams horrific profanity at strangers who are trying to help him out, despite their different views.

  • http://www.bernerbits.com Derek

    The fundamental problem with all arguments against gay marriage is that they depend on the view that there is something ‘wrong’ about being gay.

    Actually, DH’s arguments appear to try to defend this point. Of course, his false dichotomy of “either gay marriage is wrong, or nothing is wrong at all, ever, anywhere” is painfully obvious to everyone here but him.

  • noodleguy

    Well, that’s logical fallacy for you. People need to learn to recognize it when its spewing out of their own mouth.

    When people start worshiping their “rights” and make themselves the standard for right and wrong you leave yourself with no consistent grounds to object, really, to anything, beyond your opinion.

    This is obviously false. All natural rights stem from a person’s right to own themself. Therefore, you have the right to do anything you want, yes, unless it limits someone else’s right.

    Therefore the things that he mentioned would not be allowed. Marriage to a child is illegal because it violates the child’s rights to safety and it violates the parent’s rights to raise their own child (as well as a whole bunch of others in fact…) The only way to make a moral society is through rights. This is what our country was founded on. Let’s see…the founders of the philosophy of classical liberalism…Thomas Jefferson, John Locke, 90% of the founding fathers made contributions…

    Your argument is absurd for another reason. Try using your logic backwards. We shouldn’t allow ANY marriages because, as you pointed out, it will INEVITABLY lead to degradation of all human society, yes?

    Such arguments are merely shrouds of false logic and fallacy over a blatantly obvious edifice of bigotry.

    This is why rhetoric ought to be taught in high schools…so no one ever falls for these stupid arguments.

    I would go on but I really must go now.

  • Grimace

    Larry’s story was, of course, alarming (to say the least), but I wanted to mention the first of the two videos: is it strange if I sit there and with every statement they make, only think to myself, “These are meant to be negatives?”

  • noodleguy

    is it strange if I sit there and with every statement they make, only think to myself, “These are meant to be negatives?”

    That’s exactly what happened to me :-0

  • Catherine

    Daniel,
    I really don’t think I should have to explain to you why it is insulting to be compared to someone who has sex with children or with animals. Really though, if gay marriage is so horrible and bad, I’m sure you can explain your views without tumbling down a slippery slope.

  • Larry Huffman

    Dnaiel H…Your comments are quite ridiculous. It is obvious that those who jump to those extremes do not understand the law at all. Perhaps that explains the fear you all have…you just do not quite understand how things work.

    First of all…hetero marriage laws could also be given the same scrutiny, just between male and female. So…if you are afraid that allowing gay marriage will cause men to want to be with little boys…well, why are you not afraid of current hetero laws from allowing an adult male from marrying a little girl?

    I can tell you why…because there are laws against children…of either sex…from marrying or having sexual relations with adults. I will also add that plenty of hetero men ignore this and still have sex with young girls )and boys…oh my!). Sorry to burst your bubble…but going after kids is not a homosexual trait…it is a trait of pedophiles (both gay and straight…guess which groups numbers more? Hetero!)

    Animals. Animals are not people and therefore do not have a place in the conversation. The marriage laws in question still only cover people. So, no, this will not lead to man-beast marriage. The fact that you are fearful of this really says much more about you and your ignorance or twisted views than the people whom you fear. Perhaps all of you religious types should explore sexuality more and gain a clearer understanding before you make such assinine assumptions. It really does make you look stupid to all except the faityhful who share you totally misplaced views…a number that is growing smaller all of the time.

    Again…there are existing laws against people having sex with animals. And guess what? A vast majority of people convicted of this crime are hetero!

    So you see…what you are afraid of already is happening illegally and the majority of culprits are straight. Laws do exist however, and there is no way that allowing gay people to marry will ever degrade into allowing adults to marry children or animals. Two totally different premises.

    The only reason you have not seen a convincing argument to the contrary is because you do not want to see it. The fact that your statements are baseless and are easily countered shows that your unwillingness to accept the answers means you simply want to be contentious…and most likely means you real motivation is not these fears, but just that you are homophobic and intolerant.

  • Larry Huffman

    Thanks to all for your kind comments about the story I shared. I had not intended for the story to be printed as I typed it to Hemant…was really just wanting to point out the hypocrissy of the people bringing their kids into the fray. But I am glad it was shared.

    The only reason I recognize homosexuals as a seperate group is because they are currently severely discriminated against by the law. Once we have things balanced and equality for homosexuals and heterosexuals alike, you all just go back to just being people, ok? I hate the idea of labelling someone for something as private as sexual preference. Sexual preference is your business, and you can be whatever you want to be. You are not wrong…and if that is who you are, then it is imperically right.

    Shame on anyone who believes a god created all of us, and then for condemning people for who they are. It is hypocritical at it’s core, and really just shows the same kind of hate-brought-on-by-fear that has caused christians to treat other groups badly for centuries.

    Christians…if you really want us all to forget about how you hated and murdered thousands upon thousands during the inquisition…you have all got to stop finding new groups to spew your hate at. Do you not realize that you cannot convince those of us paying attention that you have changed if you keep saying the same hateful and ignorant things, just at different groups? Your hatred and inability to be tolerant is going to be the downfall of your religion. You can say otherwise, but it is already happening. I have been paying attention to your kids…and they are doing much better in this area than their parents. You see…our HS age kids all have gay friends, so it is kind of hard to spew your hate-talk and cause them to fear that which they already know they do not have to fear.

    I will confess right here…I was a gay-hater before my marriage. I had no reason other than some vague religious reasons (even the biblical passages do not convey the hate that the modern christians spew). I was taught to fear it…and then idoctrinated with open ridicule any time it was brought up. I was not violent, or even openly against them to their face…but I held the views. Then I met my wife who had a mother who was a lesbian…and my world changed. Why? Well, my love for my bride to be made me take the time to get to know my mother in law…which included her very-gay (some would say flaming) circle of friends. I soon came to regard all as my friends too and realized I had nothing to fear. And i was a novelty to them too…their fundy friend. We had some very good talks, I can tell you. It was revealing and showed me a very serious flaw with my fellow christians. It took me another 8 years to walk away from the fairy tale…but that entire time I had a terrible dislike for the christian treatment of homosexuals. I mean, it was painfully obvious that to treat them the way Jesus wanted them to would be to associate with them and love them. Instead, the christians reject Jesus method and prefer the old testament hatred. It just gives hateful people…like Daniel H…a chance to be hateful under the umbrella of being a follower of Jesus. Too bad the Jesus of the NT would completely disagree with Daniel. Funny though.

    So…everyone who loves freedom and loves their fellow men (regardless of belief system or sexual preference), stand up for any group being discriminated against. Any time a groups rights are taken away, we all suffer. Homosexuals simply do not deserve this. The fears that are mentioned are entirely baseless. They are desperate attempts by hateful people to prevent change that is contrary to their current belief system. I will note that their belief system is that of an ancient middle-eastern nomadic tribe…not one that is born of the American spirit for independance and equality for all. Allowing all people to be treated equally under the law is the American way. This has always met with resistence…and it is usually religious resistence. Christians in the south used their bibles to defend slavery…do not forget. So…we should all be willing to take up the fight of equality as that is truly an American endeavor…and one of the many factors that show plainly that this is not a christian nation…it is much much better than that.

  • Brad

    Beijingrrl almost went this far earlier, but…
    What is marriage?
    If it is defined as a union between a man and a woman, how did it come to be defined in that way?
    If religion is the answer, then wouldn’t the creation of any law regarding the establishment of a religious union, be against the first amendment to the constitution?
    I propose that a law be passed banning the government from using the term “marriage” and simply replace it with “civil union” or something similar.
    If one has an issue with their church recognizing their union as marriage, they could take it up with their church, not the government.
    How would the homosexuals and/or religious amongst us feel about this arraignment?

  • Larry Huffman

    I personally do not think we should compromise on an injustice. Unions between two people pre-date christianity. They may not think so, but they also think virgins have babies and boats can carry 2 of every species…so we are not dealing with very logical or astute people here in the big picture. We are dealing with people who, no matter how in touch they like to think they are…are all wound up around some very old and barbaric customs and fairy tale like stories. And that is where they derive their current views. From a book that really is out of touch with what the world of today is. THey fight scientific discoveries as long as they can…they fought the notion of the world being round until doing so made them look even more stupid than they were. They fight anything that contradicts their precious old moldy book, even when those things can be proven. So again, this is not a rational bunch…but instead they are merely elitest bigots who want the rest of the world to think and do as they.

    As for what we call it…the current term used to signify the legal union of two people in this country today is marriage. In a few states that also includes homosexual couples. There is no reason to change terminology, and compromise with the intolerant. At some point we have to claim what is right by American standards, and forget antiquated christian views.

    In fact, I am at the point where I believe we should all refuse to compromise with religion on anything…since they are the hateful ones who are wanting to vote away other’s rights. No more passes for them because they are religious. Wanting to remove the existing rights of fellow Americans is patently unamerican and we should not stand for it. If the religious want to try to remove their fellow citizens rights, let them…but we should all call it for what it is and embarass them as unamerican bigots. Religion should get the respect it deserves, which is little to none in the wake of this kind of hate filled campaign they are waging. The more it tries to get involved in this nations business, the less respect they deserve.

    So…no. I think what gay people want is the equal right to be married. To have a marriage. Using those words. Anyone who thinks they are good enough to deny another those rights should be treated as they deserve to be treated…as people with an unamerican agenda. Period.

    (Oh…and I think in a nation built on equality under the law…religions who promote the removal of their fellow citizens rights should all lose their tax exempt status. They have the right to exist…but any group as unamerican as that, does not deserve the special treatment)

  • Anonnie Mouse

    Thank you Larry! I’d have something to add, but you pretty much summed up my thoughts nicely already in both your comments.

    To Daniel, I’d like to ask why you think that everyone should have to follow the rules which only seem to apply to your version of your religion? If we do not share your religion, then we should be free of its constructs. If we as a nation are to have true freedome of and from religion, if we rae to have true separation of church and state, then we cannot sit by and allow laws to be passed which are based solely upon one religion’s narrow tenets.

  • Catherine

    Thank you Larry. I’ve really appreciated your comments here.

    Brad, I say just call it marriage for everyone.

  • http://www.saintgasoline.com Saint Gasoline

    Daniel H., what a silly argument you make!

    As others have pointed out, you miss the obvious distinction between gays and children/animals. One can’t marry children and animals because they are not capable of consenting to such a thing. Animals can’t consent to marriage for obvious reasons–how exactly is an animal to know what a marriage is, what it entails, or to pledge itself to its “partner”? And children can’t consent because they are too young to make reasonable judgments. This is why pedophilia is a crime even if the child in question enjoys the affection and wants it. The child cannot consent because it doesn’t know any better. So unless you’re willing to claim pedophilia should not be a crime, your argument simply doesn’t withstand any scrutiny.

    Further, your argument is nothing but a silly slippery slope argument, anyway. The same sort of reasoning can be applied to the right to vote. Women shouldn’t vote, because then we’ll be on a slippery slope to letting people of different races vote, or letting animals vote, or letting amoebas vote! Obviously this argument is ridiculous and foolish in this context. Hopefully this example shows you the foolishness of your own arguments.

  • Axegrrl

    Larry, you truly have a gift for summarizing the very essence of the argument in an extremely articulate and cogent way ~ just wonderful. Thank you :)

  • Sunny G.

    I’m an absentee voter in California, and I already voted No on 8. I live in primarily-conservative Orange County, and it’s absolutely ridiculous the comments you hear from people about this proposition.

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  • Bobby Nichols

    YES on Proposition 8

    Enlightening. An atheist not tolerant of those of faith… who’d of thought ? But it’s your turf.

    Nice story with all the push button imagery worthy of a Joseph Goebbels speech… but I have faith that the story you relate is true, nonetheless.

    Being of faith I do not hate, nor judge, nor fear those who differ in point of view. I sorrow if one of faith acted the way of your story’s anti-hero, it was not Christ-like.

    I do choose the right to stand up for my rights and ideals, just as you do. Someone has to stand up to society willing itself to destruction… and the judicial system just doesn’t seem to be up to the task, nor is it their role.

    People of faith have taken this issue to heart because it is an attack against faith… sadly, something an atheist would be rather happy about, I believe… but we are pushing back.

    Martin Niemöller once said:

    “In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
    And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
    And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
    And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.”

    People of faith are speaking up.

    My faith, the gospel of Jesus Christ of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is an American faith… true to the red, white, and blue. And no, we do not practice nor condone polygamy… but live the law of the land.

    I invite you to read… “The Family: A Declaration to the World” for my faith’s view of the sanctity of marriage.

    God (or no one if you prefer) be with you,
    Bobby Nichols

  • http://latterdaymainstreet.com Hellmut

    As a fellow Mormon, I appreciate your sincerity and your efforts to explain your religion’s views, Brother Nichols.

    Martin Niemöller’s words mean that we need to help vulnerable minorities, not discriminate against them.

    Did you know that Martin Niemöller was very supportive of gays? He realized that homosexuality is a natural phenomenon that is no more harmful than heterosexuality.

    I am very much in favor of respecting your rights and the rights of Mormons but our liberty ends when it infringes on other people’s freedom.

    The founding fathers referred of discrimination by vote as the tyranny of the majority. You might want to ponder that in a quiet moment.

    You don’t want Americans to infringe your religious liberty. That’s great and I support you. By the same logic, please, stop imposing your religious views on the rest of us.


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