There are plenty of softer-speaking, more appeasement-minded voices out there, and they’re getting attention, too (witness the AHA bus campaign, the Harvard Humanist “Chaplain,” Hemant).

If you think that a billboard reading “Why believe in God?” is “appeasement-minded,” then you don’t know what appeasement means.

Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham, on the other hand, are myopically ideological, and would find a way to criticize Obama for saving a baby from a burning building.

There was always a christmas tree, which is now officially a holiday tree. Then a menorah got added. Then a real estate agent wanted to add a nativity scene and was denied, and so he sued (of course). The case was settled and he was allowed to put it up. So no, not a law, but it did involve a lawsuit. As long as there is no favoritism, it’s constitutional.

Now bunches of people are making requests to add all sorts of things, including a Festivus pole. We could have a very interesting capitol by the time this is finished.

It’s just weird because while a Christmas tree is just a co-opted pagan symbol, and the menorah is arguably “just a candelabra” (despite the mythology of the Maccabee story), while the nativity scene is an explicit recreation of the birth of a man-god. I mean, no one would say “Eh, the nativity scene is just the birth of some dude who happened to be pretty awesome!” The nativity was the birth of GOD in human form. It’s explicitly religious in my opinion. Now I personally have no real problem with a Christmas tree, but a nativity scene? There is simply no way to remove the religion from it!

On the other hand, I’m not sure how putting a nativity scene in a public building is constitutional? I mean, obviously they didn’t pass a law to put there, but it seems quite questionable…

There was always a christmas tree, which is now officially a holiday tree. Then a menorah got added. Then a real estate agent wanted to add a nativity scene and was denied, and so he sued (of course). The case was settled and he was allowed to put it up. So no, not a law, but it did involve a lawsuit. As long as there is no favoritism, it’s constitutional.

Now bunches of people are making requests to add all sorts of things, including a Festivus pole. We could have a very interesting capitol by the time this is finished.

The whole point of the nativity is so that Jesus can be born and then die and save us from hell. Jesus threatened to damn his listeners to hell with every other breath in the gospels, so if people don’t believe in hell, then the nativity was completely pointless and so is calling yourself a Christian.

If I don’t believe in God, think Jesus never existed, never go to church, never pray, have never read the bible and think all the ideas in the gospels are evil nonsense (from what I’ve heard) and still call myself a Christian, am I Christian or not? I know all about the True Scotsman fallacy, but it seems you have to draw the line somewhere.

I agree with Dan Barker and I don’t blame him for getting upset and saying something like this. Jesus does blackmail us with hell! Bill Donohue called Dan the devil for crying out loud!

Hear, hear. FFRF is my fav secularist organization ATM. Annie Laurie Gaylor & Dan Barker are wonderful antidotes to all the christian crap out there. Their monthly “Freethought Today” newspaper is always a delight. I recommend Dan’s book Godless to everyone.

Atheists don’t & shouldn’t all speak in one voice. There are plenty of softer-speaking, more appeasement-minded voices out there, and they’re getting attention, too (witness the AHA bus campaign, the Harvard Humanist “Chaplain,” Hemant). It takes all kinds. We waste way too much time arguing over just which voice is the “atheistically correct” (AC?) one to use.

If I don’t believe in God, think Jesus never existed, never go to church, never pray, have never read the bible and think all the ideas in the gospels are evil nonsense (from what I’ve heard) and still call myself a Christian, am I Christian or not?

The first two (belief in God and Jesus) are the only two many American Christians really think about. There’s a divide between cultural Christians and religious Christians almost, and the cultural Christians still put up nativity scenes and perhaps pray before meals, etc. They’re a big group, and they’re going to keep identifying as “Christian” in surveys and polls, and personally I’m glad that they don’t all believe in hell.

… calling the nativity scene “hate speech” when NOT all xians believe in hell or damnation (or even that Christianity is the only way to heaven/happiness) is just shooting himself (and his organization) in the foot.

The whole point of the nativity is so that Jesus can be born and then die and save us from hell. Jesus threatened to damn his listeners to hell with every other breath in the gospels, so if people don’t believe in hell, then the nativity was completely pointless and so is calling yourself a Christian.

If I don’t believe in God, think Jesus never existed, never go to church, never pray, have never read the bible and think all the ideas in the gospels are evil nonsense (from what I’ve heard) and still call myself a Christian, am I Christian or not? I know all about the True Scotsman fallacy, but it seems you have to draw the line somewhere.

I agree with Dan Barker and I don’t blame him for getting upset and saying something like this. Jesus does blackmail us with hell! Bill Donohue called Dan the devil for crying out loud!

I also don’t think it’s ass-kissing to criticize Barker. I think the sign sucks and that he’s making a fool out of himself.

J.J.:

But not from nearly as many people.

Yes, I’m well aware of that. Because O’Reilly didn’t choose to blow it up. Probably due to the fact that it was on the side of a bus, and fully paid for by atheists. Although technically government property, it’s legit advertising. Had it been on government property like the current one, O’Reilly would’ve went nuts, and we’d be in the same situation. I guarantee it.

To a Christian “Why Believe in God” is just as much of an attack as the current sign is. And yes, from my own personal experiences on a daily basis, ass-kissing agnostics as well. The ones who think atheists should shut up — OVER EVERYTHING! I encounter them more often than not. It’s 100% Kumbaya with them.

The people who tended to criticize atheists for acting like jerks when they really do act like jerks had no problems with the display

Are you kidding me? Yes, I’m sorry, they most certainly did. If I had a dollar for every “fundamentalist atheist” and “Two sides of the same coin” comments by self described, holier than thou agnostics, I’d be able to pay off Andrea Mackris for the O’Reilly sex tapes.

I’d revise your false dichotomy into a spectrum

For crying out loud, J.J., all I did was sum up the gist of it, hence the use of the word “basically”. We’re actually on the same page, as I agree with your breakdown. But an honest look at recent events show that there is a certain black and whiteness proving that my “dichotomy” is anything but “false”, “however much you refuse to see it”.

On the other hand, I’m not sure how putting a nativity scene in a public building is constitutional? I mean, obviously they didn’t pass a law to put there, but it seems quite questionable…