You are completely missing my point. I agree with you whole-heartedly, Vatican 2 does not. The rules are set out by the pope and those around him, not the people who I would agree are much more in tune with the right thing to do.

The rules I am citing are not my rules for what makes a Catholic a Catholic but the Church’s. My point is that, by a strict definition, many if not most catholics are not practicing their faith. I think these people should realize this and find another more tolerant group to belong to.

However, I also understand that b/c of tradition and familiarity, this will never happen.

Someone in the progressive Xtian community needs to make a huge splash like Dawkins has that you guys are out there.

Isn’t there a fella in Germany, Christians need to get him, what’s his name… Martin something.. Martin.. Lester, Lang, Loius… it begins with and L, I’m sure of it.

So now I still wonder how it is possible to call yourself an adherent of Catholicism but hold moderate/liberal views. By continuing to call youself Catholic, you are silently showing support for the conservative Catholic doctrine. But I think a lot stay because of the community, the beauty of the rituals, the social aspects or they do not see the need to vocally criticize the church.

Because Catholicism isn’t a democracy and is controlled by men, a lot of Catholics are left without a voice in the church (particularly women). So, changing your religion is not going to happen. So why not join another church? Why not leave and criticize the church? Why not leave religion all together?

First off, atheism isn’t a religion.

Secondly, I honestly think you have a very shallow understanding of what makes a Catholic a “Catholic”

Not going to church? Contraception? I’ve met a healthy number of people in my local community who are very supportive of proper sex education, and don’t see the point of going to church every Sunday.

Not that they’re hypocritical heathens – they’re very active in the local charities and outreach programs for impoverished communities, and simply don’t have the time to go to mass, and certainly don’t see the practicality of an abstinence-only sex education program.

By your definition, these people are not Catholic?

On that note, a known child molester in my area was recently released from jail. He has yet to show any repentance for his actions, but was reputedly a regular churchgoer in prison. Does that makes him a “true” Catholic by your definition?

How dare you.

I think most vividly of the interview Richard Dawkins has with the Anglican bishop in his The God Delusion documentary. Dawkins only criticism of him is that, being as liberal as he is, why is he not atheist.

I’m not saying liberal catholics need to renounce their faith entirely but few of them actually believe much of it. They are just not confronted with the reality that they actually do not believe in things such as the resurrection or other supernatural religious phenomena.

For these people, they are probably catholic b/c they were born into it and have never really examined their faith on a well-what-are-my-options level. Clearly from most of these people’s behavior (premarital sex, contraception, not going to church on sunday) they are NOT catholic. Catholics listen, if you are not following Vatican 2, then you are not catholic, end of story. You may believe in some sort of higher power or even that christ IS God but you are not catholic.

For these people it’s about (a lax interpretation of) tradition and group identity. *phew* I guess I’m one of those “new atheists” that Baggini dislikes so much.

Sorry, Mike, I didn’t post there.

I read the comments, and I feel like I’m from an alien planet next to most of those folks.

Oh, me too. Like I said, most of the commentors there tend to be the conservative trolls, not Sojo supporters.

I have to laugh that the discourse here is so much more polite than over there, and they are a liberal evangelical site.

Keep in mind that the commentors at God’s Politics are usually far more Right-wing than the contributors. Given Wallis’ increasing level of national prominence as a leader of progressive evangelicalism, his site tends to become a lightning rod for all the conservative haters out there.

“Yeah, i’m a republican, but i’m pro-choice. And i don’t support the war in Iraq, although of course i support the troops. And I think its a scandal how much those corporate execs get paid when so many poor people can barely make ends meet. And i’m against torture, what with it being a war crime and all.”

To which i always thought “Why not become a democrat?”

I used to live with a great guy, a not-really-practising catholic. He was liberal, pro-choice, sex before marriage, didn’t believe in the popes infallibility, etc. In effect, he wasn’t a catholic. But it was obviously part of his self identity that he was.

I sometimes wonder what holds people to catholicism, self identity, fear, community?