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	<title>Comments on: God&#8217;s Politics on the Atheist Bus Ads</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/03/24/gods-politics-on-the-atheist-bus-ads/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/03/24/gods-politics-on-the-atheist-bus-ads/</link>
	<description>by Hemant Mehta</description>
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		<title>By: Tom N</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/03/24/gods-politics-on-the-atheist-bus-ads/#comment-289828</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom N</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=9719#comment-289828</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s true. While I consider myself atheist, it doesn&#039;t SOUND like we have a purpose and I&#039;m sure many religious types hear it as &quot;religious anarchist.&quot;

We really need to start calling ourselves humanists or social-humanists. Something like that sounds way more positive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s true. While I consider myself atheist, it doesn&#8217;t SOUND like we have a purpose and I&#8217;m sure many religious types hear it as &#8220;religious anarchist.&#8221;</p>
<p>We really need to start calling ourselves humanists or social-humanists. Something like that sounds way more positive.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/03/24/gods-politics-on-the-atheist-bus-ads/#comment-289761</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=9719#comment-289761</guid>
		<description>Hi Eugene, welcome.  It&#039;s odd that as soon as we all got up to item #3, conversation, it all stopped.  I&#039;ve been watching this thread for two days, but it&#039;s just silent. I&#039;d go over to comment again at your site, but it&#039;s difficult to use.  The other thing is I can&#039;t think of things to ask you. 

I just wanted you to know that someone is still here listening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Eugene, welcome.  It&#8217;s odd that as soon as we all got up to item #3, conversation, it all stopped.  I&#8217;ve been watching this thread for two days, but it&#8217;s just silent. I&#8217;d go over to comment again at your site, but it&#8217;s difficult to use.  The other thing is I can&#8217;t think of things to ask you. </p>
<p>I just wanted you to know that someone is still here listening.</p>
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		<title>By: Autumnal Harvest</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/03/24/gods-politics-on-the-atheist-bus-ads/#comment-289232</link>
		<dc:creator>Autumnal Harvest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 04:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=9719#comment-289232</guid>
		<description>Eugene, looks like you might have missed most of the conversation :( I can give you my answer to (2), although Richard Wade has already stated my beliefs more eloquently than I&#039;m going to. 

I both agree and disagree with the atheists here who have claimed that we&#039;re not atheists in reaction to your god. Yes, a lack of belief in deities is just a lack of belief, so doesn&#039;t entail anything, and it&#039;s not the basis of any purpose in life, or guiding moral force. If I have an ethical problem, I don&#039;t go &quot;As an atheist, how should I handle this?&quot; any more than you go &quot;Given that I don&#039;t believe in reincarnation, how should I handle this?&quot; You don&#039;t believe in reincarnation (I&#039;m assuming), but you probably don&#039;t do much with that lack of belief.

On the other hand, while being an atheist doesn&#039;t entail anything, choosing to read an atheist blog, or wanting atheist signs on buses, is a reaction to your god. After all, there are lots of things we don&#039;t believe, but most of them we just don&#039;t think about. There aren&#039;t blogs about how Santa Claus doesn&#039;t exist, or bus signs about how you don&#039;t need to believe in the tooth fairy. In general, if atheists are organizing as atheists, it&#039;s because they see some bad influences of religion on the world around them; so the organization of atheists as atheists is a purely negative reaction. Views of posters on this blog about what that bad stuff is run the gamut from &quot;Religion is always evil and destructive,&quot; to &quot;Religion is OK, but some religious people discriminate against atheists, and that kind of sucks,&quot; but they invariably see something bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eugene, looks like you might have missed most of the conversation <img src='http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' />  I can give you my answer to (2), although Richard Wade has already stated my beliefs more eloquently than I&#8217;m going to. </p>
<p>I both agree and disagree with the atheists here who have claimed that we&#8217;re not atheists in reaction to your god. Yes, a lack of belief in deities is just a lack of belief, so doesn&#8217;t entail anything, and it&#8217;s not the basis of any purpose in life, or guiding moral force. If I have an ethical problem, I don&#8217;t go &#8220;As an atheist, how should I handle this?&#8221; any more than you go &#8220;Given that I don&#8217;t believe in reincarnation, how should I handle this?&#8221; You don&#8217;t believe in reincarnation (I&#8217;m assuming), but you probably don&#8217;t do much with that lack of belief.</p>
<p>On the other hand, while being an atheist doesn&#8217;t entail anything, choosing to read an atheist blog, or wanting atheist signs on buses, is a reaction to your god. After all, there are lots of things we don&#8217;t believe, but most of them we just don&#8217;t think about. There aren&#8217;t blogs about how Santa Claus doesn&#8217;t exist, or bus signs about how you don&#8217;t need to believe in the tooth fairy. In general, if atheists are organizing as atheists, it&#8217;s because they see some bad influences of religion on the world around them; so the organization of atheists as atheists is a purely negative reaction. Views of posters on this blog about what that bad stuff is run the gamut from &#8220;Religion is always evil and destructive,&#8221; to &#8220;Religion is OK, but some religious people discriminate against atheists, and that kind of sucks,&#8221; but they invariably see something bad.</p>
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		<title>By: Eugene</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/03/24/gods-politics-on-the-atheist-bus-ads/#comment-289079</link>
		<dc:creator>Eugene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:25:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=9719#comment-289079</guid>
		<description>@mike: thanks for the invite.

@everyone:  i&#039;m here to save everyone.
sorry, was that a really bad joke? :)

not sure how much time i have but i guess this would be a good way to follow up on #3.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@mike: thanks for the invite.</p>
<p>@everyone:  i&#8217;m here to save everyone.<br />
sorry, was that a really bad joke? <img src='http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>not sure how much time i have but i guess this would be a good way to follow up on #3.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Lundgren</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/03/24/gods-politics-on-the-atheist-bus-ads/#comment-289058</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Lundgren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=9719#comment-289058</guid>
		<description>I just commented over on that post.  One of the previous commentators said, &quot;Dawkins always irks me with his smugness...&quot;  To which I replied, now you know how we feel about Fallwell, Robertson, Huckabee, Warren, Bush W, etc...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just commented over on that post.  One of the previous commentators said, &#8220;Dawkins always irks me with his smugness&#8230;&#8221;  To which I replied, now you know how we feel about Fallwell, Robertson, Huckabee, Warren, Bush W, etc&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: MV</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/03/24/gods-politics-on-the-atheist-bus-ads/#comment-289057</link>
		<dc:creator>MV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:41:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=9719#comment-289057</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; I find it funny that “atheists” are identified by an opposition to the belief of God.  It’s a reactive belief system. To atheists:  What is your purpose?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I find it funny that &quot;Christians&quot; are identified by a belief in Christ. Amazing huh?

Moving on from there, I take exception with the belief that Atheism is the antithesis to a reactive belief system. Before we continue, we need to get some groundwork laid on the definition of reactive.

A reactive belief system relies upon reaction(hence the name). There are two general characteristics of a reactionary belief or policy:

1) Reactionary systems, beliefs, and ideals rely upon moving back toward old ideas proven wrong. It is a nostalgia for old times. 

2) Reactionary systems, beliefs, and ideals restict freedom.

By analyzing religion, we find:

1) An urge to live as we did 2000+ years ago. We think the past was better and we need to live how they did. It relies on false assumptions such as Creationism and that using condoms spreads AIDS.

2) Religion tries to restrict the freedom of its practicionars. Best examples right now is the treatment of women (female Catholic priests please say hello...*crickets*) and homosexuals among others.

Apply the same test to Atheism:
1) It rejects old ideas and supplies new ones.
2) The whole of idea atheism is to let people believe what they want.

Thus, atheism is a progressive lack-of-belief system.

Moving on from there, the answer to the question is intensly personal, but the question is also broad.

I will begin with the broad. My purpose in life is to achieve my goals. I have a passion. I want to use that passion and make something lasting. I want to live life as intensely as possible because I only have one.

To answer what I think you mean by your question, What is our purpose with the bus ads? It is to make people think, to rely on reason, not faith or emotion. I don&#039;t care if they reason out that God does exist, I just want them to &lt;em&gt;think&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> I find it funny that “atheists” are identified by an opposition to the belief of God.  It’s a reactive belief system. To atheists:  What is your purpose?</p></blockquote>
<p>I find it funny that &#8220;Christians&#8221; are identified by a belief in Christ. Amazing huh?</p>
<p>Moving on from there, I take exception with the belief that Atheism is the antithesis to a reactive belief system. Before we continue, we need to get some groundwork laid on the definition of reactive.</p>
<p>A reactive belief system relies upon reaction(hence the name). There are two general characteristics of a reactionary belief or policy:</p>
<p>1) Reactionary systems, beliefs, and ideals rely upon moving back toward old ideas proven wrong. It is a nostalgia for old times. </p>
<p>2) Reactionary systems, beliefs, and ideals restict freedom.</p>
<p>By analyzing religion, we find:</p>
<p>1) An urge to live as we did 2000+ years ago. We think the past was better and we need to live how they did. It relies on false assumptions such as Creationism and that using condoms spreads AIDS.</p>
<p>2) Religion tries to restrict the freedom of its practicionars. Best examples right now is the treatment of women (female Catholic priests please say hello&#8230;*crickets*) and homosexuals among others.</p>
<p>Apply the same test to Atheism:<br />
1) It rejects old ideas and supplies new ones.<br />
2) The whole of idea atheism is to let people believe what they want.</p>
<p>Thus, atheism is a progressive lack-of-belief system.</p>
<p>Moving on from there, the answer to the question is intensly personal, but the question is also broad.</p>
<p>I will begin with the broad. My purpose in life is to achieve my goals. I have a passion. I want to use that passion and make something lasting. I want to live life as intensely as possible because I only have one.</p>
<p>To answer what I think you mean by your question, What is our purpose with the bus ads? It is to make people think, to rely on reason, not faith or emotion. I don&#8217;t care if they reason out that God does exist, I just want them to <em>think</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: Aj</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/03/24/gods-politics-on-the-atheist-bus-ads/#comment-289008</link>
		<dc:creator>Aj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=9719#comment-289008</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;...that lack of belief does in fact influence other concerns and attitudes that you have.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s understandable coming from a christian, but I&#039;m not an atheist as a reaction to your god. There are so many things that I lack belief in, even things I haven&#039;t even heard about, that includes many gods. It&#039;s not a surprise that you would frame my concerns and attitudes compared to if I believed in your god.  Not that anyone can agree on what god is, let alone have a coherent concept of what that god is, or resist resorting to supernaturalism as a nonexplanation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8230;that lack of belief does in fact influence other concerns and attitudes that you have.</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s understandable coming from a christian, but I&#8217;m not an atheist as a reaction to your god. There are so many things that I lack belief in, even things I haven&#8217;t even heard about, that includes many gods. It&#8217;s not a surprise that you would frame my concerns and attitudes compared to if I believed in your god.  Not that anyone can agree on what god is, let alone have a coherent concept of what that god is, or resist resorting to supernaturalism as a nonexplanation.</p>
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		<title>By: siamang</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/03/24/gods-politics-on-the-atheist-bus-ads/#comment-288989</link>
		<dc:creator>siamang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=9719#comment-288989</guid>
		<description>And yes, I recognized that since I was commenting on a blog called &quot;God&#039;s Politics&quot; that I was primarily talking to political readers and democrats, and so I pitched my argument toward the more partisan, and political-wonk side of things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And yes, I recognized that since I was commenting on a blog called &#8220;God&#8217;s Politics&#8221; that I was primarily talking to political readers and democrats, and so I pitched my argument toward the more partisan, and political-wonk side of things.</p>
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		<title>By: siamang</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/03/24/gods-politics-on-the-atheist-bus-ads/#comment-288988</link>
		<dc:creator>siamang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=9719#comment-288988</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s what I wrote, in case it doesn&#039;t get on the God&#039;s politics comment system:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Commenting here as an atheist... there&#039;s one reason and one reason alone I use the word atheist to describe myself:  To make this world a better place for people afraid to say what they believe.  We live in a world where to go to public school my daughter has to pledge an oath to God every day.   Now that may line up fine with your beliefs, but not mine.  And I don&#039;t believe it&#039;s the job of a school or government to start the 5 year olds swearing oaths to God.  But unless I want to make a federal case out of it, and raise a messed-up kid, I don&#039;t burden her with that stuff.  Ultimately she will be old enough to understand that it&#039;s wrong to coerce children to swear oaths without asking their parents what they as a family believe first.

It was becoming a new parent that caused me to come out and be more public in a dialog with believers.  I knew that if we didn&#039;t do something, America would become a land more and more hostile to people with a minority belief.  She would have it harder than I did, if atheists remained closeted.


I didn&#039;t like what was happening in this country toward nonbelievers especially after 9/11, when the words &quot;God and Country&quot; started getting mooshed together as if they were the same thing, and the voices of the punditocracy were shouting how democrats needed to &quot;get faith&quot;.  I heard quite a few commentators talking very strongly about how, if democrats wanted to win elections, they had to distance themselves from secular values and push the Jesus talk.  I even heard a number of people on tv and in the newspapers opining that atheist democrats needed to choose one and shut up about the other.

When you look at how Elizabeth Dole&#039;s campaign slandered Kay Hagan, and pushed the notion that atheists should be persona non grata to even MEET with our elected representatives... now we&#039;re talking anti-democratic ideas.   The notion that we are or should be political poison, and we can&#039;t even attend fundraisers for democratic candidates?    The campaign pushed ugly stuff like saying that most North Carolinians wouldn&#039;t even eat dinner with the kind of people that atheists are.    After that, I gave a good amount of money to the Hagan campaign... But she very clearly did NOT do the right thing and make any statement about how it was wrong to tar atheists.  No, she instead continued the impression that it was a grave insult to call someone an atheist instead of taking the high road that Candidate Obama did when people falsely accused him of being a Muslim.   Obama clearly and strongly said that there was nothing to be ashamed of or wrong about being a Muslim, there are great Muslim Americans, the world Muslim is not and should never be an epithet, It&#039;s just merely that he is not a Muslim.  

No such statement from Kay Hagan, even after she won the election.  And that was throwing away a great chance for understanding and bridge-building.  It was an ugly episode in an ugly campaign, and Hagan, IMO, threw us under the bus.  I and others organized an online giving campaign for Hagan on the atheist blogosphere, and we raised thousands for her, only to see her take zero steps toward building understanding.  I guess Dole was right, we are personae non grata.  We&#039;re as popular as gay Republicans!


Anyway it was the fear that I was being told to shut up or leave my own political party that was the &quot;last straw&quot; in my silence.  I would become a loud and proud atheist, and let my fellow democrats and fellow Americans know that I was just like them... a human being.  I may have a different idea than you as to what happens in the next life... but I SHARE this world with you, and it&#039;s time you recognized that we need to get along better.



What is my &quot;purpose&quot;?  I&#039;m only an &quot;atheist&quot; when speaking to believers and attempting to build bridges of understanding.  All the rest of my days and nights I&#039;m merely &quot;me.&quot;  Just an American dad, and a democrat, and a taxpayer and a citizen.  All that stuff that doesn&#039;t seem to mean much to people anymore, while everyone marches from war to poverty to church and back.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s what I wrote, in case it doesn&#8217;t get on the God&#8217;s politics comment system:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Commenting here as an atheist&#8230; there&#8217;s one reason and one reason alone I use the word atheist to describe myself:  To make this world a better place for people afraid to say what they believe.  We live in a world where to go to public school my daughter has to pledge an oath to God every day.   Now that may line up fine with your beliefs, but not mine.  And I don&#8217;t believe it&#8217;s the job of a school or government to start the 5 year olds swearing oaths to God.  But unless I want to make a federal case out of it, and raise a messed-up kid, I don&#8217;t burden her with that stuff.  Ultimately she will be old enough to understand that it&#8217;s wrong to coerce children to swear oaths without asking their parents what they as a family believe first.</p>
<p>It was becoming a new parent that caused me to come out and be more public in a dialog with believers.  I knew that if we didn&#8217;t do something, America would become a land more and more hostile to people with a minority belief.  She would have it harder than I did, if atheists remained closeted.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t like what was happening in this country toward nonbelievers especially after 9/11, when the words &#8220;God and Country&#8221; started getting mooshed together as if they were the same thing, and the voices of the punditocracy were shouting how democrats needed to &#8220;get faith&#8221;.  I heard quite a few commentators talking very strongly about how, if democrats wanted to win elections, they had to distance themselves from secular values and push the Jesus talk.  I even heard a number of people on tv and in the newspapers opining that atheist democrats needed to choose one and shut up about the other.</p>
<p>When you look at how Elizabeth Dole&#8217;s campaign slandered Kay Hagan, and pushed the notion that atheists should be persona non grata to even MEET with our elected representatives&#8230; now we&#8217;re talking anti-democratic ideas.   The notion that we are or should be political poison, and we can&#8217;t even attend fundraisers for democratic candidates?    The campaign pushed ugly stuff like saying that most North Carolinians wouldn&#8217;t even eat dinner with the kind of people that atheists are.    After that, I gave a good amount of money to the Hagan campaign&#8230; But she very clearly did NOT do the right thing and make any statement about how it was wrong to tar atheists.  No, she instead continued the impression that it was a grave insult to call someone an atheist instead of taking the high road that Candidate Obama did when people falsely accused him of being a Muslim.   Obama clearly and strongly said that there was nothing to be ashamed of or wrong about being a Muslim, there are great Muslim Americans, the world Muslim is not and should never be an epithet, It&#8217;s just merely that he is not a Muslim.  </p>
<p>No such statement from Kay Hagan, even after she won the election.  And that was throwing away a great chance for understanding and bridge-building.  It was an ugly episode in an ugly campaign, and Hagan, IMO, threw us under the bus.  I and others organized an online giving campaign for Hagan on the atheist blogosphere, and we raised thousands for her, only to see her take zero steps toward building understanding.  I guess Dole was right, we are personae non grata.  We&#8217;re as popular as gay Republicans!</p>
<p>Anyway it was the fear that I was being told to shut up or leave my own political party that was the &#8220;last straw&#8221; in my silence.  I would become a loud and proud atheist, and let my fellow democrats and fellow Americans know that I was just like them&#8230; a human being.  I may have a different idea than you as to what happens in the next life&#8230; but I SHARE this world with you, and it&#8217;s time you recognized that we need to get along better.</p>
<p>What is my &#8220;purpose&#8221;?  I&#8217;m only an &#8220;atheist&#8221; when speaking to believers and attempting to build bridges of understanding.  All the rest of my days and nights I&#8217;m merely &#8220;me.&#8221;  Just an American dad, and a democrat, and a taxpayer and a citizen.  All that stuff that doesn&#8217;t seem to mean much to people anymore, while everyone marches from war to poverty to church and back.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Reginald Selkirk</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/03/24/gods-politics-on-the-atheist-bus-ads/#comment-288987</link>
		<dc:creator>Reginald Selkirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=9719#comment-288987</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;2.  I find it funny that “atheists” are identified by an opposition to the belief of God.  It’s a reactive belief system. To atheists:  What is your purpose?&lt;/i&gt;

1) Encouragement to atheists who read the signs, some of whom are still in the closet due to societal pressure.

2) Get across the point to others that we exist, and expect to receive the same tolerance and rights as others (note that I am purposefully not using the word &quot;respect&quot; here). Large numbers of believers still equate atheism with immorality/amorality. See any number of polls to back this up, or spend just a little time reading letters to the editor from across the land. 

Comparisons to the gay movement are appropriate here; homosexuals have been around forever, but it wasn&#039;t until they got angry and out and demanded their rights that progress was made in recognizing those rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>2.  I find it funny that “atheists” are identified by an opposition to the belief of God.  It’s a reactive belief system. To atheists:  What is your purpose?</i></p>
<p>1) Encouragement to atheists who read the signs, some of whom are still in the closet due to societal pressure.</p>
<p>2) Get across the point to others that we exist, and expect to receive the same tolerance and rights as others (note that I am purposefully not using the word &#8220;respect&#8221; here). Large numbers of believers still equate atheism with immorality/amorality. See any number of polls to back this up, or spend just a little time reading letters to the editor from across the land. </p>
<p>Comparisons to the gay movement are appropriate here; homosexuals have been around forever, but it wasn&#8217;t until they got angry and out and demanded their rights that progress was made in recognizing those rights.</p>
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