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	<title>Comments on: Backlash Against the Charlotte Allen Anti-Atheist Piece in the LA Times: Part 2</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/21/backlash-against-the-charlotte-allen-anti-atheist-piece-in-the-la-times-part-2/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/21/backlash-against-the-charlotte-allen-anti-atheist-piece-in-the-la-times-part-2/</link>
	<description>by Hemant Mehta</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 05:42:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Thilina</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/21/backlash-against-the-charlotte-allen-anti-atheist-piece-in-the-la-times-part-2/#comment-312013</link>
		<dc:creator>Thilina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 04:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=11825#comment-312013</guid>
		<description>Charlotte Allen had every right to write that article there&#039;s no law against that.

Should the editor have published it, No.
But only because its clear bigotry, even for an opinion piece. Replace the word atheist with blacks, Christians or Jews (as Hemant did) and it would have never been published.

Had she made the same points in a more intellectual fashion, without the generalizations and clear hate and anger (which she hypocritically accuse some us of being) it would be a different story

If the publisher was just trying to cause controversy and get web traffic they should go with my earlier suggestion and replace the atheist with a more socially protected minority (blacks, Jews, Muslims, NRA members, Republicans, Xtians)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlotte Allen had every right to write that article there&#8217;s no law against that.</p>
<p>Should the editor have published it, No.<br />
But only because its clear bigotry, even for an opinion piece. Replace the word atheist with blacks, Christians or Jews (as Hemant did) and it would have never been published.</p>
<p>Had she made the same points in a more intellectual fashion, without the generalizations and clear hate and anger (which she hypocritically accuse some us of being) it would be a different story</p>
<p>If the publisher was just trying to cause controversy and get web traffic they should go with my earlier suggestion and replace the atheist with a more socially protected minority (blacks, Jews, Muslims, NRA members, Republicans, Xtians)</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/21/backlash-against-the-charlotte-allen-anti-atheist-piece-in-the-la-times-part-2/#comment-311919</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 21:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=11825#comment-311919</guid>
		<description>Newspapers, like many businesses try to find a balance between principles and expediency.  They may have some standards of quality for their journalism and for their editorial practices, while they also know that appealing to the most base impulses of the public can get them at least a short term gain in readership. There are trade-offs for both these strategies.

Each newspaper falls somewhere on that spectrum from high-principled journalism to gossip rag, smut rag or hate rag.  Some have clawed their way from disrepute to respectability, but for most it has been a downhill route.  As newspapers around the world face extinction in the Internet Epoch, I expect that we&#039;ll see more of them whoring for any kind of readership instead of appealing to the best in their public.

I subscribed to the Los Angeles Times for many years, but some years ago I canceled because the paper started turning &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;yellow&lt;/a&gt; long before the sun had baked it on my driveway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Newspapers, like many businesses try to find a balance between principles and expediency.  They may have some standards of quality for their journalism and for their editorial practices, while they also know that appealing to the most base impulses of the public can get them at least a short term gain in readership. There are trade-offs for both these strategies.</p>
<p>Each newspaper falls somewhere on that spectrum from high-principled journalism to gossip rag, smut rag or hate rag.  Some have clawed their way from disrepute to respectability, but for most it has been a downhill route.  As newspapers around the world face extinction in the Internet Epoch, I expect that we&#8217;ll see more of them whoring for any kind of readership instead of appealing to the best in their public.</p>
<p>I subscribed to the Los Angeles Times for many years, but some years ago I canceled because the paper started turning <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism" rel="nofollow">yellow</a> long before the sun had baked it on my driveway.</p>
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		<title>By: Aj</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/21/backlash-against-the-charlotte-allen-anti-atheist-piece-in-the-la-times-part-2/#comment-311883</link>
		<dc:creator>Aj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 18:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=11825#comment-311883</guid>
		<description>On the grounds that nearly every paragraph contained an untruth, along with some egregious misquoting, an editor would be fully justified in not publishing. I have no idea how anyone could say it &quot;deserved the space&quot;. It wasn&#039;t written well, basically just parroting the same facile and ignorant talking points, it added nothing new whatsoever. I would love for theists to actually justify what they say about sophisticated theologians using examples and analysis, it would be damn hilarious. There was very little content, much of it was simple minded namecalling and whines.

The First Amendment right is for the newspaper, and if the editor decides not to publish an article then he is wielding that right. If anyone cries that the writer&#039;s right has been suppressed then they&#039;re ignorant fools who don&#039;t understand the First Amendment in the first place. Editors don&#039;t have to publish every piece of crap they recieve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the grounds that nearly every paragraph contained an untruth, along with some egregious misquoting, an editor would be fully justified in not publishing. I have no idea how anyone could say it &#8220;deserved the space&#8221;. It wasn&#8217;t written well, basically just parroting the same facile and ignorant talking points, it added nothing new whatsoever. I would love for theists to actually justify what they say about sophisticated theologians using examples and analysis, it would be damn hilarious. There was very little content, much of it was simple minded namecalling and whines.</p>
<p>The First Amendment right is for the newspaper, and if the editor decides not to publish an article then he is wielding that right. If anyone cries that the writer&#8217;s right has been suppressed then they&#8217;re ignorant fools who don&#8217;t understand the First Amendment in the first place. Editors don&#8217;t have to publish every piece of crap they recieve.</p>
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		<title>By: Siamang</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/21/backlash-against-the-charlotte-allen-anti-atheist-piece-in-the-la-times-part-2/#comment-311875</link>
		<dc:creator>Siamang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 18:32:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=11825#comment-311875</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;And in effect…what you are saying is that you think a newspaper should only print articles you agree with.&lt;/blockquote&gt;


Got Straw?



I merely expect my paper to only run well-argued, well-written views I disagree with.

I used to work at a small newspaper, and I edited newspapers in high school and at my university.  I&#039;m a &quot;true newspaper man&quot;, whatever that is supposed to mean.

This was a shit article that I wouldn&#039;t have run.
&lt;blockquote&gt;
I know exactly what it means.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, I don&#039;t actually think you do.  Or if you do, you ignored what it really means in order to make your point, which is a faulty point if you think the First Amendment guarantees Charlotte Allen ink in the Los Angeles Times.

The LA TIMES doesn&#039;t owe ink to anyone, as it is not a public forum.  Every editor knows this... in fact that&#039;s WHAT an editor does... The job of editor is to choose who and what deserves column-inches and what does not.

I will agree that having her write very poorly and then having the respondents write and act better is a way to make lemonade out of lemons.  In that way, I should be thankful that this enemy is ridiculous.

However, only through our anger and action is this enemy made to look ridiculous.  The only way we make this lemonade is to respond exactly as we did.

By clamoring for a better and more discerning editorial treatment of stories like this, we are asking that the conversation advance, and not remain forever at the level of schoolyard sophistry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>And in effect…what you are saying is that you think a newspaper should only print articles you agree with.</p></blockquote>
<p>Got Straw?</p>
<p>I merely expect my paper to only run well-argued, well-written views I disagree with.</p>
<p>I used to work at a small newspaper, and I edited newspapers in high school and at my university.  I&#8217;m a &#8220;true newspaper man&#8221;, whatever that is supposed to mean.</p>
<p>This was a shit article that I wouldn&#8217;t have run.</p>
<blockquote><p>
I know exactly what it means.</p></blockquote>
<p>No, I don&#8217;t actually think you do.  Or if you do, you ignored what it really means in order to make your point, which is a faulty point if you think the First Amendment guarantees Charlotte Allen ink in the Los Angeles Times.</p>
<p>The LA TIMES doesn&#8217;t owe ink to anyone, as it is not a public forum.  Every editor knows this&#8230; in fact that&#8217;s WHAT an editor does&#8230; The job of editor is to choose who and what deserves column-inches and what does not.</p>
<p>I will agree that having her write very poorly and then having the respondents write and act better is a way to make lemonade out of lemons.  In that way, I should be thankful that this enemy is ridiculous.</p>
<p>However, only through our anger and action is this enemy made to look ridiculous.  The only way we make this lemonade is to respond exactly as we did.</p>
<p>By clamoring for a better and more discerning editorial treatment of stories like this, we are asking that the conversation advance, and not remain forever at the level of schoolyard sophistry.</p>
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		<title>By: llewelly</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/21/backlash-against-the-charlotte-allen-anti-atheist-piece-in-the-la-times-part-2/#comment-311870</link>
		<dc:creator>llewelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 18:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=11825#comment-311870</guid>
		<description>So, by Larry Huffman&#039;s logic, if a bad neighbor takes a dump on his lawn, it&#039;s good because it raises awareness about unsanitary people who defecate on the lawns of others. Gotcha.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, by Larry Huffman&#8217;s logic, if a bad neighbor takes a dump on his lawn, it&#8217;s good because it raises awareness about unsanitary people who defecate on the lawns of others. Gotcha.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick_O</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/21/backlash-against-the-charlotte-allen-anti-atheist-piece-in-the-la-times-part-2/#comment-311863</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick_O</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 17:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=11825#comment-311863</guid>
		<description>I think some folks forget that newspapers - and other media  - are business ventures. It&#039;s in their express interest to generate readers and they&#039;ve clearly done that; controversy always brings in readership, especially when the article/piece has the tone and substance of Allen&#039;s. 

Speaking of tone and substance, the article is clearly meant to provoke. A success, from what I can see.

Personally, I wouldn&#039;t want my name attached to writing that&#039;s so poor but I don&#039;t necessarily see a problem with the article. I disagree on many points, find others quite laughable, but I have no problem with it being published in a &quot;reputable&quot; newspaper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think some folks forget that newspapers &#8211; and other media  &#8211; are business ventures. It&#8217;s in their express interest to generate readers and they&#8217;ve clearly done that; controversy always brings in readership, especially when the article/piece has the tone and substance of Allen&#8217;s. </p>
<p>Speaking of tone and substance, the article is clearly meant to provoke. A success, from what I can see.</p>
<p>Personally, I wouldn&#8217;t want my name attached to writing that&#8217;s so poor but I don&#8217;t necessarily see a problem with the article. I disagree on many points, find others quite laughable, but I have no problem with it being published in a &#8220;reputable&#8221; newspaper.</p>
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		<title>By: Lost Left Coaster</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/21/backlash-against-the-charlotte-allen-anti-atheist-piece-in-the-la-times-part-2/#comment-311861</link>
		<dc:creator>Lost Left Coaster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 17:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=11825#comment-311861</guid>
		<description>C&#039;mon, it&#039;s not an issue of freedom of speech in any sense. It was a poorly written, pointless, scattershot and hateful piece that was directing ire at atheists without backing it up with sufficient evidence. Are we wrong to ask for higher editorial standards from the LA Times? No one is saying that the paper should only print opinions that we agree with. As it is, the flaws in this piece are exhibited in far too many op-ed pieces in newspapers around the country. I demand a higher quality of writing and thought to be expressed in the opinion sections of newspapers, be the opinions liberal, conservative, Christian, atheist, or anything else. 

By the way, editors squelch pieces all the time. That&#039;s their job; it&#039;s called editing. Running that piece was poor editing. Space on an op-ed piece is finite; editors make judgment calls every day as to what deserves to appear there and what doesn&#039;t. Nothing to do with freedom of speech.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>C&#8217;mon, it&#8217;s not an issue of freedom of speech in any sense. It was a poorly written, pointless, scattershot and hateful piece that was directing ire at atheists without backing it up with sufficient evidence. Are we wrong to ask for higher editorial standards from the LA Times? No one is saying that the paper should only print opinions that we agree with. As it is, the flaws in this piece are exhibited in far too many op-ed pieces in newspapers around the country. I demand a higher quality of writing and thought to be expressed in the opinion sections of newspapers, be the opinions liberal, conservative, Christian, atheist, or anything else. </p>
<p>By the way, editors squelch pieces all the time. That&#8217;s their job; it&#8217;s called editing. Running that piece was poor editing. Space on an op-ed piece is finite; editors make judgment calls every day as to what deserves to appear there and what doesn&#8217;t. Nothing to do with freedom of speech.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Huffman</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/21/backlash-against-the-charlotte-allen-anti-atheist-piece-in-the-la-times-part-2/#comment-311853</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Huffman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 17:19:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=11825#comment-311853</guid>
		<description>And...I will add one more thing. If any atheist writer wrote an article expressing our views of christianity (that it is not based on reason or fact, that the followers are indoctrinated and gullible, etc.)...based on what you are saying about how this editor acted, those articles would have to be stifled as well. Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens, for example, are just as outspoken...and they would be squelched by the same standards you are stating. 

We cannot expect secular and atheistic views to be able to be presented while stopping all theistic viewpoints. And as I said, this article did more FOR atheism than against it.

Except, I suppose, for atheists who read it and get all offended and shocked...as if they did not know that the fundamentalists thought this about us. But again, a reasonable person affords others their own viewpoint...even in print...if they also expect their viewpoint to be allowed and show up in print.

I disagree with everything the article says (except that we are a bit angry...yes, that is true...with cause)...but I do not understand how alleged open minded freethinkers can want a newspaper to squelch an article simply because they disagree with it. The fact is, just as many most likely DO agree with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And&#8230;I will add one more thing. If any atheist writer wrote an article expressing our views of christianity (that it is not based on reason or fact, that the followers are indoctrinated and gullible, etc.)&#8230;based on what you are saying about how this editor acted, those articles would have to be stifled as well. Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens, for example, are just as outspoken&#8230;and they would be squelched by the same standards you are stating. </p>
<p>We cannot expect secular and atheistic views to be able to be presented while stopping all theistic viewpoints. And as I said, this article did more FOR atheism than against it.</p>
<p>Except, I suppose, for atheists who read it and get all offended and shocked&#8230;as if they did not know that the fundamentalists thought this about us. But again, a reasonable person affords others their own viewpoint&#8230;even in print&#8230;if they also expect their viewpoint to be allowed and show up in print.</p>
<p>I disagree with everything the article says (except that we are a bit angry&#8230;yes, that is true&#8230;with cause)&#8230;but I do not understand how alleged open minded freethinkers can want a newspaper to squelch an article simply because they disagree with it. The fact is, just as many most likely DO agree with it.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Huffman</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/21/backlash-against-the-charlotte-allen-anti-atheist-piece-in-the-la-times-part-2/#comment-311844</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Huffman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 16:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=11825#comment-311844</guid>
		<description>And in effect...what you are saying is that you think a newspaper should only print articles you agree with. And that editors should stifle differing opinions. You do know that the OP in op-ed is &#039;opinion&#039;...right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And in effect&#8230;what you are saying is that you think a newspaper should only print articles you agree with. And that editors should stifle differing opinions. You do know that the OP in op-ed is &#8216;opinion&#8217;&#8230;right?</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Huffman</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/21/backlash-against-the-charlotte-allen-anti-atheist-piece-in-the-la-times-part-2/#comment-311840</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Huffman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 16:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=11825#comment-311840</guid>
		<description>I know exactly what it means. But how it has been applied by newspapers for a very long time is very differnet. But you guys are all entitled to your opinions. I am not concerned who disagrees with me, really. But I am also not as thin skinned as the christians are, and I do not cry foul or claim I am offended when people write their opinions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know exactly what it means. But how it has been applied by newspapers for a very long time is very differnet. But you guys are all entitled to your opinions. I am not concerned who disagrees with me, really. But I am also not as thin skinned as the christians are, and I do not cry foul or claim I am offended when people write their opinions.</p>
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