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	<title>Comments on: The Problems with the &#8220;New Atheist&#8221; Approach</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/06/25/the-problems-with-the-new-atheist-approach/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/06/25/the-problems-with-the-new-atheist-approach/</link>
	<description>by Hemant Mehta</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 09:41:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Infinite Monkey</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/06/25/the-problems-with-the-new-atheist-approach/#comment-322905</link>
		<dc:creator>Infinite Monkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 21:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=12986#comment-322905</guid>
		<description>Did I miss something? How is giving to charity and volenteering become an example of morality? They are nice things, but how is that moral?

I&#039;d like to suggest that some of the worst people out there, to hide their true side, or maybe to compensate for their evils, give money to charity and volenteer. After all, when was the last time a serial killer was caught, and his neighbors said, &quot;I knew it, he was always an asshole. Why didn&#039;t I put two and two together?&quot; I&#039;m under the impression they are way more likely to say &quot;I never would have guessed. He was the sweetest man, always giving to the community&quot;.

Other questions that appear in my mind is: What is defined by giving to charity? Usually, charity is usually defined as a non-profit organization. If that&#039;s correct, then wouldn&#039;t that make tithing &quot;giving to charity&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did I miss something? How is giving to charity and volenteering become an example of morality? They are nice things, but how is that moral?</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to suggest that some of the worst people out there, to hide their true side, or maybe to compensate for their evils, give money to charity and volenteer. After all, when was the last time a serial killer was caught, and his neighbors said, &#8220;I knew it, he was always an asshole. Why didn&#8217;t I put two and two together?&#8221; I&#8217;m under the impression they are way more likely to say &#8220;I never would have guessed. He was the sweetest man, always giving to the community&#8221;.</p>
<p>Other questions that appear in my mind is: What is defined by giving to charity? Usually, charity is usually defined as a non-profit organization. If that&#8217;s correct, then wouldn&#8217;t that make tithing &#8220;giving to charity&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Aj</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/06/25/the-problems-with-the-new-atheist-approach/#comment-322855</link>
		<dc:creator>Aj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:32:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=12986#comment-322855</guid>
		<description>More on what religious dispatches and so called &quot;liberal&quot; or &quot;moderate&quot; religion, how they simply refuse to combat religious fundamentalism and harm. 

Lets have a look at how they &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/scienceenvironment/1566/when_medicine_and_religion_conflict_around_children%3A_the_case_of_daniel_hauser&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;deal with the Daniel Hauser story&lt;/a&gt;. Apparantly, according to the author, the circumstances around the Hauser case raise &quot;complex ethical questions&quot;, that apparantly were missed by atheist bloggers. For instance should: parents be allowed to neglect their ill children, courts protect children, children be allowed to refuse important treatment. No, yes, and no you religious monster, that&#039;s not complex at all.

The news media is criticized for not making it clear that most conflicts between religion and medicine are resolved without the parents fleeing to avoid court ordered treatments. The author mentions religious families working with doctors but doesn&#039;t go into detail, that could mean not giving blood tranfusions despite professional medical opinion. Apparantly the US government won&#039;t step in unless it&#039;s life threatening or could cause severe or permanent harm.

Note that the beliefs aren&#039;t criticized for being irrational. There&#039;s no dismay at the harm these beliefs that involve denial of medical treatment cause. The parents aren&#039;t criticized for actively withholding life saving treatment. Sites like this don&#039;t combat harmful religion, they seem callously indifferent to the harm it causes, despite having no problem with non-religiously motivated harm (even imaginary). &lt;a href=&quot;http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/05/16/minnesota-judge-may-end-up-saving-daniel-hausers-life/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Atheist blogs don&#039;t have this problem&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More on what religious dispatches and so called &#8220;liberal&#8221; or &#8220;moderate&#8221; religion, how they simply refuse to combat religious fundamentalism and harm. </p>
<p>Lets have a look at how they <a href="http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/scienceenvironment/1566/when_medicine_and_religion_conflict_around_children%3A_the_case_of_daniel_hauser" rel="nofollow">deal with the Daniel Hauser story</a>. Apparantly, according to the author, the circumstances around the Hauser case raise &#8220;complex ethical questions&#8221;, that apparantly were missed by atheist bloggers. For instance should: parents be allowed to neglect their ill children, courts protect children, children be allowed to refuse important treatment. No, yes, and no you religious monster, that&#8217;s not complex at all.</p>
<p>The news media is criticized for not making it clear that most conflicts between religion and medicine are resolved without the parents fleeing to avoid court ordered treatments. The author mentions religious families working with doctors but doesn&#8217;t go into detail, that could mean not giving blood tranfusions despite professional medical opinion. Apparantly the US government won&#8217;t step in unless it&#8217;s life threatening or could cause severe or permanent harm.</p>
<p>Note that the beliefs aren&#8217;t criticized for being irrational. There&#8217;s no dismay at the harm these beliefs that involve denial of medical treatment cause. The parents aren&#8217;t criticized for actively withholding life saving treatment. Sites like this don&#8217;t combat harmful religion, they seem callously indifferent to the harm it causes, despite having no problem with non-religiously motivated harm (even imaginary). <a href="http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/05/16/minnesota-judge-may-end-up-saving-daniel-hausers-life/" rel="nofollow">Atheist blogs don&#8217;t have this problem</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/06/25/the-problems-with-the-new-atheist-approach/#comment-322828</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=12986#comment-322828</guid>
		<description>In addition to the above comment, the research on religiosity and altrusim shows that although religious people give more in a planned or unspontaneous way, that less traditionally religious individuals, including atheists are more helpful in spontaneous or unplanned contexts, such as the stranger by the side of the road scenario where religion is not relevant to the context. This is particularly so when the individual in need of assistance is a &quot;value violator&quot; or someone who is outside the mainstream (gays, homeless, etc). In the laboratory, priming religious concepts by making them more salient improves generosity and honesty, but so does priming secular social concepts (e.g., justice, law, court). 

So the interesting aspects brought up by such research are: why are the religious helpful moreso in planned contexts where they can choose what to give or whom to help, whereas the non religious are less discriminating about who is being helped.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to the above comment, the research on religiosity and altrusim shows that although religious people give more in a planned or unspontaneous way, that less traditionally religious individuals, including atheists are more helpful in spontaneous or unplanned contexts, such as the stranger by the side of the road scenario where religion is not relevant to the context. This is particularly so when the individual in need of assistance is a &#8220;value violator&#8221; or someone who is outside the mainstream (gays, homeless, etc). In the laboratory, priming religious concepts by making them more salient improves generosity and honesty, but so does priming secular social concepts (e.g., justice, law, court). </p>
<p>So the interesting aspects brought up by such research are: why are the religious helpful moreso in planned contexts where they can choose what to give or whom to help, whereas the non religious are less discriminating about who is being helped.</p>
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		<title>By: Reginald Selkirk</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/06/25/the-problems-with-the-new-atheist-approach/#comment-322807</link>
		<dc:creator>Reginald Selkirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:16:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=12986#comment-322807</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;In fact, study after study has shown that deeply religious people tend to give substantially more to charity and to volunteer more often than their nonreligious counterparts.&lt;/i&gt;

They need to factor in the negative impact of religious activity. For example, if you give to your church, and the money ends up funding a witch hunting minister in Africa, or if your volunteer activity is protesting at a reproductive services clinic, that&#039;s a bad thing, not a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>In fact, study after study has shown that deeply religious people tend to give substantially more to charity and to volunteer more often than their nonreligious counterparts.</i></p>
<p>They need to factor in the negative impact of religious activity. For example, if you give to your church, and the money ends up funding a witch hunting minister in Africa, or if your volunteer activity is protesting at a reproductive services clinic, that&#8217;s a bad thing, not a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron in Houston</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/06/25/the-problems-with-the-new-atheist-approach/#comment-322764</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron in Houston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=12986#comment-322764</guid>
		<description>I think the key is balance.  When you take the position the Hitchens does that &quot;religion poisons everything,&quot; even if you have a lot of concrete evidence, you still end up discounting or dismissing the contrary evidence.

I think it&#039;s good to point out that religion is not benign.  However when you take an extreme position you end up marginalizing yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the key is balance.  When you take the position the Hitchens does that &#8220;religion poisons everything,&#8221; even if you have a lot of concrete evidence, you still end up discounting or dismissing the contrary evidence.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s good to point out that religion is not benign.  However when you take an extreme position you end up marginalizing yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: Cannonball Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/06/25/the-problems-with-the-new-atheist-approach/#comment-322698</link>
		<dc:creator>Cannonball Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:42:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=12986#comment-322698</guid>
		<description>Sneakily writing this at work so didn&#039;t have time to read all the comments. Just wanted to add that my usual reply to this objection stands - is it really moral if they&#039;re doing these good deeds out of fear of punishment or desire for reward? The author tries to say that religion doesn&#039;t use fear to inspire these acts of benevolence but he really needs to back that up I think. The &#039;good books&#039; are peppered with warnings about the eternal horrors awaiting you if you don&#039;t play nice, is he really suggesting that has no effect on believers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sneakily writing this at work so didn&#8217;t have time to read all the comments. Just wanted to add that my usual reply to this objection stands &#8211; is it really moral if they&#8217;re doing these good deeds out of fear of punishment or desire for reward? The author tries to say that religion doesn&#8217;t use fear to inspire these acts of benevolence but he really needs to back that up I think. The &#8216;good books&#8217; are peppered with warnings about the eternal horrors awaiting you if you don&#8217;t play nice, is he really suggesting that has no effect on believers?</p>
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		<title>By: Charon</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/06/25/the-problems-with-the-new-atheist-approach/#comment-322695</link>
		<dc:creator>Charon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:27:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=12986#comment-322695</guid>
		<description>Oh, and that&#039;s just personal charity. As Saint Gasoline points out, that&#039;s far from the whole story. Denmark and Sweden are hotbeds of atheism, and also have very strong social support funded by high taxes. This is charity, on a much larger scale than most religious people in the US can conceive of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and that&#8217;s just personal charity. As Saint Gasoline points out, that&#8217;s far from the whole story. Denmark and Sweden are hotbeds of atheism, and also have very strong social support funded by high taxes. This is charity, on a much larger scale than most religious people in the US can conceive of.</p>
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		<title>By: Charon</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/06/25/the-problems-with-the-new-atheist-approach/#comment-322694</link>
		<dc:creator>Charon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=12986#comment-322694</guid>
		<description>Zuckerman, in &lt;em&gt;Society Without God&lt;/em&gt;, says the &quot;religious=gives more to charity&quot; idea is wrong. As a sociologist who studies religion, he might know.

This is &lt;em&gt;after&lt;/em&gt; you exclude donations that are purely for support of the church. Money for your church&#039;s food bank counts as charity, money for new stained-glass windows doesn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zuckerman, in <em>Society Without God</em>, says the &#8220;religious=gives more to charity&#8221; idea is wrong. As a sociologist who studies religion, he might know.</p>
<p>This is <em>after</em> you exclude donations that are purely for support of the church. Money for your church&#8217;s food bank counts as charity, money for new stained-glass windows doesn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Underwhelmed</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/06/25/the-problems-with-the-new-atheist-approach/#comment-322693</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Underwhelmed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=12986#comment-322693</guid>
		<description>The organizations representing us are so narrowly focused on fighting religious right nonsense that they rarely take a stand on issues that should be even more important to us, like genocide, poverty, torture, etc. Not to imply that the separation of church and state is not an issue worth fighting for, but it is not the most important issue of our time (at least domestically, which is where efforts are focused). 

How can a movement that, as represented in public, focuses almost exclusively on squabbles with fundies while staying mum on poverty, racism, genocide, etc. ever seem on an equal moral level with, for example Unitarians advocating for policies that reduce poverty and an end to the genocide in Darfur, or the churches involved in the civil rights movement?
 
Can&#039;t we do a little better?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The organizations representing us are so narrowly focused on fighting religious right nonsense that they rarely take a stand on issues that should be even more important to us, like genocide, poverty, torture, etc. Not to imply that the separation of church and state is not an issue worth fighting for, but it is not the most important issue of our time (at least domestically, which is where efforts are focused). </p>
<p>How can a movement that, as represented in public, focuses almost exclusively on squabbles with fundies while staying mum on poverty, racism, genocide, etc. ever seem on an equal moral level with, for example Unitarians advocating for policies that reduce poverty and an end to the genocide in Darfur, or the churches involved in the civil rights movement?</p>
<p>Can&#8217;t we do a little better?</p>
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		<title>By: Saint Gasoline</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/06/25/the-problems-with-the-new-atheist-approach/#comment-322675</link>
		<dc:creator>Saint Gasoline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 05:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=12986#comment-322675</guid>
		<description>Those studies of charity are, to put it bluntly, a bunch of crap.  What you also find with atheists is that they tend to be extremely liberal.  And what do liberals emphasize?  Social welfare programs run by the government.  That is, we prefer to have our charity doled out by secular systems, like the government, rather than religious institutions.  And for all the talk of how &quot;inefficent&quot; government-run programs are, they are surely more efficient than the &quot;charity&quot; of someone like Mother Theresa, who put the poor in hovels.

Besides, the New Atheism doesn&#039;t say NOTHING good ever comes from religion, so this is basically a straw man, to boot.

I always found it ironic, of course, that those religious folk who proudly give to their church will rail at length about how horrible welfare is.  I really don&#039;t understand such a cognitive gap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those studies of charity are, to put it bluntly, a bunch of crap.  What you also find with atheists is that they tend to be extremely liberal.  And what do liberals emphasize?  Social welfare programs run by the government.  That is, we prefer to have our charity doled out by secular systems, like the government, rather than religious institutions.  And for all the talk of how &#8220;inefficent&#8221; government-run programs are, they are surely more efficient than the &#8220;charity&#8221; of someone like Mother Theresa, who put the poor in hovels.</p>
<p>Besides, the New Atheism doesn&#8217;t say NOTHING good ever comes from religion, so this is basically a straw man, to boot.</p>
<p>I always found it ironic, of course, that those religious folk who proudly give to their church will rail at length about how horrible welfare is.  I really don&#8217;t understand such a cognitive gap.</p>
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