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	<title>Comments on: Ask Richard: Is My Belief in Karma Incompatible with My Atheism?</title>
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	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/07/17/ask-richard-is-my-belief-in-karma-incompatible-with-my-atheism/</link>
	<description>by Hemant Mehta</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 07:27:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: CG</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/07/17/ask-richard-is-my-belief-in-karma-incompatible-with-my-atheism/#comment-330913</link>
		<dc:creator>CG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=13697#comment-330913</guid>
		<description>Karma has a couple different conceptualizations. In discussing it, it&#039;s useful to have either an operative definition - or a clear distinction between the forms.

One is roughly a form of &quot;divine justice&quot; - this is the Hindu form, sometimes seen in Buddhism. The other is roughly equivalent to what we today would call &quot;game theory&quot; - and this is the form it takes in nontheistic or simply atheistic Buddhism. (And I&#039;m not familiar enough to speak of the Jain understanding.)

The one is compatible. The other isn&#039;t - I&#039;ll leave &quot;which is which&quot; as an strenuous exercise to the reader. :)

But my only real point - and others do make this: most of our culture &quot;understands&quot; karma only in one context, but more than one context exists. It&#039;s an error to condemn a concept entirely based on just one understanding of it, when there exist two or more - perhaps distinctly - different concepts that use the same word.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karma has a couple different conceptualizations. In discussing it, it&#8217;s useful to have either an operative definition &#8211; or a clear distinction between the forms.</p>
<p>One is roughly a form of &#8220;divine justice&#8221; &#8211; this is the Hindu form, sometimes seen in Buddhism. The other is roughly equivalent to what we today would call &#8220;game theory&#8221; &#8211; and this is the form it takes in nontheistic or simply atheistic Buddhism. (And I&#8217;m not familiar enough to speak of the Jain understanding.)</p>
<p>The one is compatible. The other isn&#8217;t &#8211; I&#8217;ll leave &#8220;which is which&#8221; as an strenuous exercise to the reader. <img src='http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>But my only real point &#8211; and others do make this: most of our culture &#8220;understands&#8221; karma only in one context, but more than one context exists. It&#8217;s an error to condemn a concept entirely based on just one understanding of it, when there exist two or more &#8211; perhaps distinctly &#8211; different concepts that use the same word.</p>
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		<title>By: K. Eerie</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/07/17/ask-richard-is-my-belief-in-karma-incompatible-with-my-atheism/#comment-330658</link>
		<dc:creator>K. Eerie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 13:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=13697#comment-330658</guid>
		<description>IMHO atheists shouldn&#039;t engage in belief at all, so far as being convinced of anything.  Obviously as a practical matter we must behave as if we can take certain things for granted and the strength of these contingent &quot;beliefs&quot; is only due to the weight of the evidence that supports them.  Echoing Matt above and Sam Harris, I can find no good reason to believe anything on insufficient or nonexistent evidence.  However, Buddhism, and its version of the principle of karma pared down to its rational core is not religion at all, and does not require faith, and does conform very well with evidence from a variety of sciences as I stated above.  The issue is not any particular term, but the nature of &quot;beliefs&quot; that self described atheists are engaging: contingent on real evidence, or blind faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMHO atheists shouldn&#8217;t engage in belief at all, so far as being convinced of anything.  Obviously as a practical matter we must behave as if we can take certain things for granted and the strength of these contingent &#8220;beliefs&#8221; is only due to the weight of the evidence that supports them.  Echoing Matt above and Sam Harris, I can find no good reason to believe anything on insufficient or nonexistent evidence.  However, Buddhism, and its version of the principle of karma pared down to its rational core is not religion at all, and does not require faith, and does conform very well with evidence from a variety of sciences as I stated above.  The issue is not any particular term, but the nature of &#8220;beliefs&#8221; that self described atheists are engaging: contingent on real evidence, or blind faith.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/07/17/ask-richard-is-my-belief-in-karma-incompatible-with-my-atheism/#comment-330646</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 11:31:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=13697#comment-330646</guid>
		<description>I personally reserve a little space in my epistemology that there are things about nature that we haven&#039;t yet figured out and also some things that our &quot;monkey brains&quot; will never be able to figure out.  I don&#039;t consider this &quot;reserved space&quot; God or anything supernatural.  It is just an acceptance that there will always be some things unknown about the world.  Religious people fill this gap (and more) with God.  Spiritual, but not religious, people fill this gap with &quot;spirituality&quot;.  Others may fill it with &quot;Karma&quot;.  I&#039;m personally comfortable in not filling it.  I simply admit and recognize that there is a gap there and some of it may never get filled.  For me, that is the root definition of atheism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally reserve a little space in my epistemology that there are things about nature that we haven&#8217;t yet figured out and also some things that our &#8220;monkey brains&#8221; will never be able to figure out.  I don&#8217;t consider this &#8220;reserved space&#8221; God or anything supernatural.  It is just an acceptance that there will always be some things unknown about the world.  Religious people fill this gap (and more) with God.  Spiritual, but not religious, people fill this gap with &#8220;spirituality&#8221;.  Others may fill it with &#8220;Karma&#8221;.  I&#8217;m personally comfortable in not filling it.  I simply admit and recognize that there is a gap there and some of it may never get filled.  For me, that is the root definition of atheism.</p>
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		<title>By: K</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/07/17/ask-richard-is-my-belief-in-karma-incompatible-with-my-atheism/#comment-330640</link>
		<dc:creator>K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 11:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=13697#comment-330640</guid>
		<description>Obviously a long way to go. You used the word &quot;faith&quot; to describe your conversion to atheism. A little oxymoronic, don&#039;t you think? Yeah, I had to stop reading at that point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously a long way to go. You used the word &#8220;faith&#8221; to describe your conversion to atheism. A little oxymoronic, don&#8217;t you think? Yeah, I had to stop reading at that point.</p>
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		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/07/17/ask-richard-is-my-belief-in-karma-incompatible-with-my-atheism/#comment-330630</link>
		<dc:creator>matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 10:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=13697#comment-330630</guid>
		<description>karma? totally incompatable with atheism in my life. 

where is the evidence for it?

that which is asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>karma? totally incompatable with atheism in my life. </p>
<p>where is the evidence for it?</p>
<p>that which is asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof</p>
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		<title>By: Is Karma Incompatible With Atheism? &#124; Phasing</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/07/17/ask-richard-is-my-belief-in-karma-incompatible-with-my-atheism/#comment-330628</link>
		<dc:creator>Is Karma Incompatible With Atheism? &#124; Phasing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 09:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=13697#comment-330628</guid>
		<description>[...] excellent question posed by a Scot, a reader at The Friendly Atheist. While Richard gives a fine answer supposing belief in a supernatural version of Karma, I find [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] excellent question posed by a Scot, a reader at The Friendly Atheist. While Richard gives a fine answer supposing belief in a supernatural version of Karma, I find [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Victorb</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/07/17/ask-richard-is-my-belief-in-karma-incompatible-with-my-atheism/#comment-330617</link>
		<dc:creator>Victorb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 07:56:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=13697#comment-330617</guid>
		<description>@ungullible:
&lt;blockquote&gt;There may be karma as a (weak) rule of thumb, but not as a law of the universe. Why confuse people with a term that is laden with concepts of magical thinking?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I will gladly agree that my view is one of &quot;weak karma.&quot; I do not believe it is an absolute law because it is an emergent one. It therefore must be probabilistic, which means that not all good deeds will be rewarded and sometimes bad things will happen to good people (and vice versa). It appears that in our universe, karma operates with at least a slight a pro-good-deed bias, though this could be up for debate.

As for terminology, that&#039;s up to the user. If you feel better calling it &quot;Ungullible&#039;s weak causality principle&quot; then go ahead. But I think the word &quot;karma&quot; already means most of what you want it to mean, so why not use the term more people will understand?

A Hindu would tell you that karmic law is enforced by God. A Buddhist would tell you that it&#039;s a law of nature. A Jain would tell you something inbetween. There is enough room in the word &quot;karma&quot; for all these definitions because the differences aren&#039;t enough to warrant a new word.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ungullible:</p>
<blockquote><p>There may be karma as a (weak) rule of thumb, but not as a law of the universe. Why confuse people with a term that is laden with concepts of magical thinking?</p></blockquote>
<p>I will gladly agree that my view is one of &#8220;weak karma.&#8221; I do not believe it is an absolute law because it is an emergent one. It therefore must be probabilistic, which means that not all good deeds will be rewarded and sometimes bad things will happen to good people (and vice versa). It appears that in our universe, karma operates with at least a slight a pro-good-deed bias, though this could be up for debate.</p>
<p>As for terminology, that&#8217;s up to the user. If you feel better calling it &#8220;Ungullible&#8217;s weak causality principle&#8221; then go ahead. But I think the word &#8220;karma&#8221; already means most of what you want it to mean, so why not use the term more people will understand?</p>
<p>A Hindu would tell you that karmic law is enforced by God. A Buddhist would tell you that it&#8217;s a law of nature. A Jain would tell you something inbetween. There is enough room in the word &#8220;karma&#8221; for all these definitions because the differences aren&#8217;t enough to warrant a new word.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/07/17/ask-richard-is-my-belief-in-karma-incompatible-with-my-atheism/#comment-330613</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 06:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=13697#comment-330613</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Maybe Richard’s next letter will be “Can I keep believing in psychics and stay an atheist?” or “Is my belief that Jesus Christ is the Messiah incompatible with my atheism?”&lt;/blockquote&gt;  

:D  LOL! 

Fortunately, no one has asked those yet.  The next few letters are more about daily life issues.  Also fortunately, I&#039;m not the authority who determines who is and is not an atheist.  I just try to clarify the implications of such questions so the questioners can answer them for themselves. 

Remember back, those of you who came from a place of gods and souls,  when your present views were new to you.  Perhaps your convictions were tentative or fragile.  Perhaps your ideas were uneven and conflicting.  Perhaps you were uneasy and unsettled. Perhaps you were downright scared and distraught. 

What could a person as clear as you are now, say to a person as confused as you were then, to encourage you to keep going, to coax you to finally be free of the last of your mind-mist?  Maybe some kindly person did that for you, maybe not, but we all have opportunities to comfort and inspire those who are now in that uncomfortable halfway place where we were for a time. 

Think of it as (ahem) ;)  &quot;good karma,&quot; both earned and delivered in the same moment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Maybe Richard’s next letter will be “Can I keep believing in psychics and stay an atheist?” or “Is my belief that Jesus Christ is the Messiah incompatible with my atheism?”</p></blockquote>
<p> <img src='http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' />   LOL! </p>
<p>Fortunately, no one has asked those yet.  The next few letters are more about daily life issues.  Also fortunately, I&#8217;m not the authority who determines who is and is not an atheist.  I just try to clarify the implications of such questions so the questioners can answer them for themselves. </p>
<p>Remember back, those of you who came from a place of gods and souls,  when your present views were new to you.  Perhaps your convictions were tentative or fragile.  Perhaps your ideas were uneven and conflicting.  Perhaps you were uneasy and unsettled. Perhaps you were downright scared and distraught. </p>
<p>What could a person as clear as you are now, say to a person as confused as you were then, to encourage you to keep going, to coax you to finally be free of the last of your mind-mist?  Maybe some kindly person did that for you, maybe not, but we all have opportunities to comfort and inspire those who are now in that uncomfortable halfway place where we were for a time. </p>
<p>Think of it as (ahem) <img src='http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />   &#8220;good karma,&#8221; both earned and delivered in the same moment.</p>
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		<title>By: Autumnal Harvest</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/07/17/ask-richard-is-my-belief-in-karma-incompatible-with-my-atheism/#comment-330605</link>
		<dc:creator>Autumnal Harvest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 05:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=13697#comment-330605</guid>
		<description>Most of the explanations of here as to why karma is real strike me as magical thinking (or &quot;woo,&quot; if you wish), in that they seek to conclude that good results invariably come to good people, and bad results to bad people, despite tons of evidence to the contrary. People often do bad things, not because they&#039;re stupid, but because those bad things can often (not always) be beneficial. If bad things weren&#039;t beneficial, no one would do them.

But I wonder if this really means that karma is incompatible with atheism? My gut feelings is that an atheist &quot;shouldn&#039;t&quot; believe in karma, but I&#039;m not sure this is really the case. The only thing truly incompatible with being an atheist is believing in one or more gods. Maybe believing in karma is incompatible with critical thinking about karma, but lots of things fail by that test. I guess you can believe in astrology, psychics, UFOs, or 9-11 conspiracy theories, and still be an atheist.

Gosh, I had no idea so many atheists were concerned with what they&#039;re allowed to believe, as atheists: &lt;a href=&quot;http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/07/11/ask-richard-is-my-buddhism-suitable-for-an-atheist/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ask Richard: Is My Buddhism Suitable for an Atheist?&lt;/a&gt;. Maybe Richard&#039;s next letter will be &quot;Can I keep believing in psychics and stay an atheist?&quot; or &quot;Is my belief that Jesus Christ is the Messiah incompatible with my atheism?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the explanations of here as to why karma is real strike me as magical thinking (or &#8220;woo,&#8221; if you wish), in that they seek to conclude that good results invariably come to good people, and bad results to bad people, despite tons of evidence to the contrary. People often do bad things, not because they&#8217;re stupid, but because those bad things can often (not always) be beneficial. If bad things weren&#8217;t beneficial, no one would do them.</p>
<p>But I wonder if this really means that karma is incompatible with atheism? My gut feelings is that an atheist &#8220;shouldn&#8217;t&#8221; believe in karma, but I&#8217;m not sure this is really the case. The only thing truly incompatible with being an atheist is believing in one or more gods. Maybe believing in karma is incompatible with critical thinking about karma, but lots of things fail by that test. I guess you can believe in astrology, psychics, UFOs, or 9-11 conspiracy theories, and still be an atheist.</p>
<p>Gosh, I had no idea so many atheists were concerned with what they&#8217;re allowed to believe, as atheists: <a href="http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/07/11/ask-richard-is-my-buddhism-suitable-for-an-atheist/" rel="nofollow">Ask Richard: Is My Buddhism Suitable for an Atheist?</a>. Maybe Richard&#8217;s next letter will be &#8220;Can I keep believing in psychics and stay an atheist?&#8221; or &#8220;Is my belief that Jesus Christ is the Messiah incompatible with my atheism?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Pustulio</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/07/17/ask-richard-is-my-belief-in-karma-incompatible-with-my-atheism/#comment-330600</link>
		<dc:creator>Pustulio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 05:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=13697#comment-330600</guid>
		<description>I think believing in karma is like believing in ghosts.  It&#039;s not strictly theism so technically you can believe and still be an &quot;atheist&quot;, but it&#039;s still a belief in the supernatural and therefore doesn&#039;t really jive with what most people consider atheism to be.  And I think that trying to broaden the definition of karma so as to make it compatible is akin to what theists do when they try to insist that atheism requires &quot;faith&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think believing in karma is like believing in ghosts.  It&#8217;s not strictly theism so technically you can believe and still be an &#8220;atheist&#8221;, but it&#8217;s still a belief in the supernatural and therefore doesn&#8217;t really jive with what most people consider atheism to be.  And I think that trying to broaden the definition of karma so as to make it compatible is akin to what theists do when they try to insist that atheism requires &#8220;faith&#8221;.</p>
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