I’m no disqualifying “liberal Christians” because I don’t see these people as such. Thomas Jefferson, Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris have applauded Jesus’s Sermon on the Mount for some of its moral messages. There are plenty of “atheists for Jesus”. I do not consider them Christians. Some atheists go to church, don’t believe anything spoken there, but still feel a part of the community. In Europe a lot of people associate themselves with Christian culture, but not Christian doctrine, they are culturally “Christian” but not in a religious sense, so while it’s the same word, it’s not the same meaning. Language evolves, words have multiple meanings.

From reading the progressive Christianity forum at beliefnet and I see that plenty there consider self-identification to be sufficient to be a Christian. If people want to label themselves that’s fine but no one else has to accept that label. You couldn’t say anything meaningful about “Christians” if it’s just a label one uses on themselves, and that’s probably on purpose because saying something meaningful is not something these people seem to appreciate. If anyone says anything about Christians such people can say they’re wrong when they don’t like what’s being said. That’s a nice defence mechanism, and it seems to be used a lot by “progressive Christians”, but it’s entirely dishonest.

I still think you’re disqualifying more liberal Christians than you realize. That certainly reflects my own experience of the church which is hard to quantify to be sure. But I’d encourage you to check out the progressive christian section at beliefnet or the folks at the Center for Progressive Christianity as examples.

If you take a subset of the church, define them as not Christian, and then complain that the church doesn’t have such a subset, what can one say?

…

As a side note, Spong became a bishop because his diocese put his name forward, was elected and supported by the diocese and confirmed at a general convention of the church. Again not an isolated theologian but a leader in a denomination.

But if you define those folks as not Christian, then the next step would be political liberals who are evangelicals and who fit the definition of “true Christian” as defined by you in this case. But then upon what basis can one complain about the no true scotsman fallacy?

That’s certainly not what I have written, but I see pattern here, it doesn’t seem to matter. I believe that I have written that people like Spong are not representative of liberal Christians not that they do not exist within the church.

I don’t think Spong being a bishop necessarily means that the congregations support his views on miracles, Jesus, or anything else. I don’t know whether Spong had the same views when he was confirmed as Bishop. The Episcopal Church has small membership, about 2 million. In the same denomination I do not believe Rowan Williams who is the leader of the church is representative of the church he leads. If I asked a regular church goer in an Anglican church I would not expect the responses he gives.

Is it a lack of imagination on your part or are you erecting a strawman each time you describe liberal Christians who believe in miracles as “evangelicals”? A no true scotsman fallacy involves ad hoc definitions to suit an argument. I’m sorry to disappoint you but I’ve held this definition of Christian for a while, and I think it has served me well. As soon as someone says Jesus isn’t magic, then they’re not Christian as I use the term, and I hope that’s common.

Any examples, book titles, or names of liberal theologians who you believe don’t address epistemlogy, or fit the description you’ve given?

Paul Tillich’s “Love, Power, and Justice: Ontological Analysis and Ethical Applications”. Influencing “postmodern” theologians, as with anything connected with postmodernism it comes with truth relativism, incoherency, and obscurantism.

Rowan Williams that is generously described as “wooly” starts out a radio interview in 2006 “I don’t know whether there is a God…”. Williams emphasizes a relationship with God over beliefs, just like Marcus Borg you have mentioned.

Any examples, book titles, or names of liberal theologians who you believe don’t address epistemlogy, or fit the description you’ve given?

If you take a subset of the church, define them as not Christian, and then complain that the church doesn’t have such a subset, what can one say?

If you go with evolution Sunday, historical criticism of the Bible, by definition you’re going to be running into questions about miracles, the nature of religious claims, etc. They go together. I’ve never been in a liberal church where this is not the case.

As a side note, Spong became a bishop because his diocese put his name forward, was elected and supported by the diocese and confirmed at a general convention of the church. Again not an isolated theologian but a leader in a denomination.

But if you define those folks as not Christian, then the next step would be political liberals who are evangelicals and who fit the definition of “true Christian” as defined by you in this case. But then upon what basis can one complain about the no true scotsman fallacy?

I don’t doubt that the science is not always good from the pulpits. But I don’t fault the churches for trying. And I bet, depending on where you live, I could easily find a number of congregations of similar sentiment (though we certainly need far more of them). But I do think seminaries should (like undergrad schools) introduce folks to a history and methodology course when it comes to the sciences. That is, we should ways to encourage this interaction, not discourage it because as up to now it’s not been done as well as it should be.

I think the only way to have an adequate religious or any other kind of understanding is to lift up and live out the values of dialogue, free inquiry, questioning, and the reasoning process. Those are questions that are tied into my point about theological commitments. The shift to those values in some portions of the church I think has an opportunity to relate whatever resources may exist in the Christian tradition to engage other traditions, disciplines, and the like on the problems of life.

I do appreciate this site and the discussion. I remember and appreciated Clawson’s posts and likewise I’m a seminary student and a former director of an interfaith student center. Right now, I’m at Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis, which is a Disciples of Christ school, studying for ordained ministry. I think the possibility of positively interrelating theists and atheists is an important one (not least of all for those of us informed by a progressive political vision). And definitely keen on sticking around

Spong and other theologians are not representative of even liberal Christians. The vast majority of liberal Christians would be a lot closer to evangelicals with liberal political values than liberal theologians. Spong doesn’t believe in miracles, believes Jesus was completely human, and rejects a hell of a lot of scripture and Christian tradition as fraud. That’s not even Christian as far as I’m concerned, when I call someone a Christian my definition doesn’t include people like Spong.

We wouldn’t be atheists if we thought liberal theologians addressed epistemic concerns. Liberal theologians don’t even address epistemology incorrectly, they seem to be truth relativists. Theologians rant on like stroke victims with little concern for clarity, coherency, or communication with non-theologians. I’m not aware of any Christian community where liberal theologians would be representative.

Hemant didn’t say liberal Christians reject evolution or are bibical literalists so your points about “Evolution Sunday” and “historical critical studies” doesn’t address the liberal Christians Hemant was portraying. Your portrayal of liberal Christianity is farfetched, they’re not like Spong or even much less fringe liberal theologians.

Hemant’s point is valid, liberal Christians might not have conservative politics but they still believe in irrational nonsense and superstition. They still believe in miracles, prayer, heaven, and a personal god, even if some theologians don’t.

When you have over a thousand congregations around the country who participated in Evolution Sunday (celebrating the role of science in relating to our world), when you have historical critical studies devoured by congregations around the country (Marcus Borg is quite a hit in the churches), we’re dealing with something different than what Hemnant seems to be portraying. Maybe we’re offering a different beverage all together?

I would hope so.

Now, in a realistic world more than 1000 churches would be celebrating evolution more than once a year. Seriously, you use the number 1000 like it was large! That’s like saying “over a hundred people voted for me instead of Barack Obama!”

I bet I have 1000 churches within a ten minute drive. That’s like finding a needle in a galaxy. It’s like “YAY! YOU GO, both you progressive fishes! Keep swimming upstream, I think niagra falls is losing pressure because of you!”

I’m glad 1000 churches can get a boner for paleontology. Good for them… but really not nearly enough. I like this quote by Carl Sagan: “A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. ”

Have you read PZ Myers’ take on “Evolution Sunday”? It’s a serious condemnation of the entire concept.

Here’s what he’s said:

Try reading some of their collection of Evolution Sunday sermons, and what you’ll find is usually attempts to piggyback the validity of truth by religious revelation on the credibility of evidence-based reasoning.
…
Read the sermons. They’ve very depressingly stark, full-on religion dabbed with a few inoffensive fragments of poorly understood science.

I have read a few, and I tend to agree. They’re VEEEERRRYYY light on the science. They’re cool enough with the results of science, but they don’t mention the process of science, or why it’s fruitful to… you know…TEST hypotheses and attempt to disprove them in settings that are repeatable. (That would conflict with their business model!) They don’t accept science as a method of discovering the nature of the universe…. they merely say nice things about some of the things science has found already using this method.

I think they’re doing something very Templeton-esque. Which is to attempt to pour a chocolate coating of religion over some science to give a false impression of validity to the notion that religion is a scientifically demonstrable concept.

I think you’re coming from an interesting place in your journey. And I’m trying to meet you from the path I’m on and see if we can’t learn from each other’s perspective.

I admit, I haven’t read the book. Just keep up with the blog. But what is portrayed as liberals are just evangelicals with better politics as opposed to folks who are governed by a different set of theological commitments.

Yes, those are the posts that tend to get posted here. But I will note that Hemant used to have a blog contributor here who was an Emergent Christian pastor and student at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary. We’ve had Mormon contributors and various others. We need more of them. Mike Clawson was great, but he was unfortunately treated by some of the posters here as batting practice… I think he got tired of the folks here constantly attempting to challenge him.

As for them having a different set of theological commitments, I think that’s mostly inside baseball to atheists (well, at least me.) I have not much patience for that stuff, and I’ll let the adherents duke it out over how many angels dance on each version of the metaphorical pin. Those are “Kirk vs Picard” arguments to me, only applicable if you are already a Trekkie. Neither set of theological commitments interest me, as both versions of the theology fail to show me evidence sufficient to compel me to believe that their path is the One True Path™, nor that they have an answer for my “Siamang’s Question” above.

You wrote:

The ability to engage (especially in communities) both the resources from our respective traditions with what is being learned now, is a methodology of a sort.

Well, I think it’s a dialog, and that’s good. But it’s not where religion tends to end, is it?

I was having a conversation with my wife once, and she said “maybe there is something benefitial about prayer… calming, centering… checking in with the universe…”

And I said, ‘hey, if that was all religion is, then, I’d be all for it.” But it really isn’t that, or it calls itself that when it wants to be all safe and fuzzy and roll on its back, hide its teeth and claws and bare its fluffy white belly fur. But religion is about that, plus a bunch of unverified, unverifiable and some disproven claims about the nature of the universe, lumped in with a lot of “God wants you to cut the end of your son’s penis off, God says do this, God says do that… God says always trust your pastor….etc” And it’s all wrapped up in a philosophy which says basically that we do not control our own destinies. That we are not responsible for our fellow men and women. That we are accountable to the invisible imaginary before we are accountable to our fellow man. Its wrapped up in the worst and most rigorous batch of psychological conditioning that was ever invented, and that every single tyrant since the beginning of civilization has used to the hilt.

It’s religion’s seductive little mantras that are the danger to our democracy….

“trust authority”
“don’t question”
“don’t ask for proof”
“follow without proof, for faith is a virtue”
“push out the one with outsider ideas, and don’t listen or consider them, for they are evil and they will bend your mind toward evil”

I’m glad you don’t subscribe to the last one, and maybe some of the others as well. But for me, I think people can make it just fine through this life (at the least!) without wading through the psychological mystery-maze that each religion constructs.

Whew! Sorry I wrote so much! Anyway, WELCOME Dwight! I think we do have a lot in common, and I do find you a deep thinker and a sincere conversant. I hope you stick around.

I admit, I haven’t read the book. Just keep up with the blog. But what is portrayed as liberals are just evangelicals with better politics as opposed to folks who are governed by a different set of theological commitments. Folks with a better set of politics are all good (Jimmy Carter for example) but as you noted the methodology is the same and epistemic and other concerns remain unaddressed.

Liberal protestantism as a movement developed in the early 19th/late 18th century as a way of relating faith to the emerging picture of ourselves that was developing through the natural sciences, ie relating themselves to modernity really. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t. Retired Episcopal bishop John Spong (who I have various disagreements with) more represents that general move than Jimmy Carter does.

When you have over a thousand congregations around the country who participated in Evolution Sunday (celebrating the role of science in relating to our world), when you have historical critical studies devoured by congregations around the country (Marcus Borg is quite a hit in the churches), we’re dealing with something different than what Hemnant seems to be portraying. Maybe we’re offering a different beverage all together?

I think the value (outside of hopefully making religions better neighbors)is the engagement of what we know currently with the best of what humans have come up with in the past. The ability to engage (especially in communities) both the resources from our respective traditions with what is being learned now, is a methodology of a sort. Not one that guarantees “the answers” but hopefully a fruitful way to engage the questions. I get nervous when the present is fought against or the past easily dispensed with.