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	<title>Comments on: Christians: Do You Defend Your Own Freedom?</title>
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	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/08/06/christians-do-you-defend-your-own-freedom/</link>
	<description>by Hemant Mehta</description>
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		<title>By: 2009ThePatriot</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/08/06/christians-do-you-defend-your-own-freedom/#comment-356893</link>
		<dc:creator>2009ThePatriot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 08:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=14795#comment-356893</guid>
		<description>Blog Mallmal Says:
2 hours… No comments…

Hypocrisy is the christian motto…

This is my point name calling and innuendo on all sides of belief.  The Atheist has every right to freedom of speech  and his religious belief as I do.  I would lay down my very life if need be to do this for even a Satan worshiper.  Which by the way I was prepared to do for 13 years.

I am tired or atheists, Islamists, Christians etc etc etc all fighting who is right and who is wrong.

I am truly tired of my so called christian wannabe brothers and sisters.  It is obvious that they do not read or understand history.  Christianity is the bloodiest religion on the planet.  We have fought more wars and killed more people in the Name of the Christian God than any other religion.  Seems to be kind of opposite to what Jesus teaches does it not?

In answer to your question, tell me how I can help you win your fight for Freedom of Speech and Religious Belief.  After all in mine God gave us  ALL Free Will to choose.  I do not have to answer for your actions, only mine.

Do you all realize that if all of us here in America put aside all these petty differences accepted each other for what we believed that our very Government would be extremely afraid of us.  Thus they would not be doing what they are doing today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blog Mallmal Says:<br />
2 hours… No comments…</p>
<p>Hypocrisy is the christian motto…</p>
<p>This is my point name calling and innuendo on all sides of belief.  The Atheist has every right to freedom of speech  and his religious belief as I do.  I would lay down my very life if need be to do this for even a Satan worshiper.  Which by the way I was prepared to do for 13 years.</p>
<p>I am tired or atheists, Islamists, Christians etc etc etc all fighting who is right and who is wrong.</p>
<p>I am truly tired of my so called christian wannabe brothers and sisters.  It is obvious that they do not read or understand history.  Christianity is the bloodiest religion on the planet.  We have fought more wars and killed more people in the Name of the Christian God than any other religion.  Seems to be kind of opposite to what Jesus teaches does it not?</p>
<p>In answer to your question, tell me how I can help you win your fight for Freedom of Speech and Religious Belief.  After all in mine God gave us  ALL Free Will to choose.  I do not have to answer for your actions, only mine.</p>
<p>Do you all realize that if all of us here in America put aside all these petty differences accepted each other for what we believed that our very Government would be extremely afraid of us.  Thus they would not be doing what they are doing today.</p>
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		<title>By: Euan</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/08/06/christians-do-you-defend-your-own-freedom/#comment-341061</link>
		<dc:creator>Euan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 04:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=14795#comment-341061</guid>
		<description>The statement on that site reads: &quot;We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.&quot;

Umm, can&#039;t see the problem.  Evidence for Darwinian theory is being constantly examined and re-evaluated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The statement on that site reads: &#8220;We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.&#8221;</p>
<p>Umm, can&#8217;t see the problem.  Evidence for Darwinian theory is being constantly examined and re-evaluated.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/08/06/christians-do-you-defend-your-own-freedom/#comment-340927</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 21:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=14795#comment-340927</guid>
		<description>imissbubby,
I expected that someone would try to elevate that to the level of a free speech issue. I&#039;d rather not have this thread degrade into yet another inane &quot;debate&quot; about teaching the so-called controversy, but I will say this: 

All free speech exists in a context, and is uttered in a context.  That free speech is not so free that it can be uttered in a context that is inappropriate for its topic.  


When the Riverbend City Council invites public discussion in its chambers over the proposed storm drain project, if I go there and want to talk instead about the West Meadowville City Council&#039;s proposed street beautification program, then the Riverbend City Council has the right to tell me to stop disrupting their meeting, and to go exercise my right to free speech in the appropriate context. 

When I was in junior high school, my English teacher was also my wood shop teacher.  He was excellent at teaching both.  But when he was in the English class, he never, ever spent precious English class time explaining when we should use a cross-cut saw blade and when we should use a rip saw blade.  When he was in the wood shop class he never, ever spent precious wood shop class time explaining when we should use the word &quot;who&quot; and when we should use the word &quot;whom.&quot; If he had not been so conscientious about teaching the subjects in their proper context, I would probably not have become as skilled as I am in both English and woodworking.  

When Darwin&#039;s theory can be convincingly shown to be a religion, as you put it, instead of a scientific theory with a large body of supporting evidence, and which, unlike a religion, is continually being amended and revised as new evidence comes to light,  then it should be taught in a religion class.  So far, only a few religionists are calling it that, and their arguments for that are weak.  

When creationism and its science-pretending clone, &quot;intelligent design&quot; can produce a strong body of convincing empirical evidence supporting the existence of the central tenet of its claim, the intelligent designer, instead of merely whining about &quot;gaps, weaknesses and controversies&quot; in the competing theory, and when that body of evidence is submitted to scientific peer review, and when it holds up to the challenges that all hypotheses must endure in science, then it should be taught in a science class. So far, despite centuries of repeating the same claims which are now repackaged in modern jargon, nothing even close to that has been offered.    

Your freedom of speech exists in appropriate contexts.  You are not free to speak whatever you wish in an inappropriate context.  You can&#039;t falsely yell &quot;Fire!&quot; in a crowded theater, or joke about bombs at an airport. If you want to change the context where you can freely speak on a topic, then you will have to show convincing evidence that your topic is appropriate for the new context.  

You are free to produce convincing evidence that wood shop is actually English, and that saw blade usage should be taught in English classes.  Until you can produce such evidence that the context you want to use is appropriate for the subject you want to talk about, then you&#039;ll have to make do with speaking freely within the context where it presently fits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>imissbubby,<br />
I expected that someone would try to elevate that to the level of a free speech issue. I&#8217;d rather not have this thread degrade into yet another inane &#8220;debate&#8221; about teaching the so-called controversy, but I will say this: </p>
<p>All free speech exists in a context, and is uttered in a context.  That free speech is not so free that it can be uttered in a context that is inappropriate for its topic.  </p>
<p>When the Riverbend City Council invites public discussion in its chambers over the proposed storm drain project, if I go there and want to talk instead about the West Meadowville City Council&#8217;s proposed street beautification program, then the Riverbend City Council has the right to tell me to stop disrupting their meeting, and to go exercise my right to free speech in the appropriate context. </p>
<p>When I was in junior high school, my English teacher was also my wood shop teacher.  He was excellent at teaching both.  But when he was in the English class, he never, ever spent precious English class time explaining when we should use a cross-cut saw blade and when we should use a rip saw blade.  When he was in the wood shop class he never, ever spent precious wood shop class time explaining when we should use the word &#8220;who&#8221; and when we should use the word &#8220;whom.&#8221; If he had not been so conscientious about teaching the subjects in their proper context, I would probably not have become as skilled as I am in both English and woodworking.  </p>
<p>When Darwin&#8217;s theory can be convincingly shown to be a religion, as you put it, instead of a scientific theory with a large body of supporting evidence, and which, unlike a religion, is continually being amended and revised as new evidence comes to light,  then it should be taught in a religion class.  So far, only a few religionists are calling it that, and their arguments for that are weak.  </p>
<p>When creationism and its science-pretending clone, &#8220;intelligent design&#8221; can produce a strong body of convincing empirical evidence supporting the existence of the central tenet of its claim, the intelligent designer, instead of merely whining about &#8220;gaps, weaknesses and controversies&#8221; in the competing theory, and when that body of evidence is submitted to scientific peer review, and when it holds up to the challenges that all hypotheses must endure in science, then it should be taught in a science class. So far, despite centuries of repeating the same claims which are now repackaged in modern jargon, nothing even close to that has been offered.    </p>
<p>Your freedom of speech exists in appropriate contexts.  You are not free to speak whatever you wish in an inappropriate context.  You can&#8217;t falsely yell &#8220;Fire!&#8221; in a crowded theater, or joke about bombs at an airport. If you want to change the context where you can freely speak on a topic, then you will have to show convincing evidence that your topic is appropriate for the new context.  </p>
<p>You are free to produce convincing evidence that wood shop is actually English, and that saw blade usage should be taught in English classes.  Until you can produce such evidence that the context you want to use is appropriate for the subject you want to talk about, then you&#8217;ll have to make do with speaking freely within the context where it presently fits.</p>
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		<title>By: imissbubby</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/08/06/christians-do-you-defend-your-own-freedom/#comment-340803</link>
		<dc:creator>imissbubby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 14:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=14795#comment-340803</guid>
		<description>Dear Richard, The world doesn&#039;t seem to be a fair place, does it?

When are atheists going to petition the government to stop forcing children in public schools to believe in Darwin&#039;s religion?  When will the government stop protecting the religion of atheism masquerading as science?

www.dissentfromdarwin.com

We all have to work together to get freedom of speech.  It can&#039;t be one sided.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Richard, The world doesn&#8217;t seem to be a fair place, does it?</p>
<p>When are atheists going to petition the government to stop forcing children in public schools to believe in Darwin&#8217;s religion?  When will the government stop protecting the religion of atheism masquerading as science?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dissentfromdarwin.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.dissentfromdarwin.com</a></p>
<p>We all have to work together to get freedom of speech.  It can&#8217;t be one sided.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/08/06/christians-do-you-defend-your-own-freedom/#comment-340605</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 23:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=14795#comment-340605</guid>
		<description>Keith, 
Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keith,<br />
Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/08/06/christians-do-you-defend-your-own-freedom/#comment-340595</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 23:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=14795#comment-340595</guid>
		<description>GodisReal, 
Your question about what have I done to fight for Christian freedoms is a fair one.  Since Christians are the majority in this country, I seldom see their rights to express themselves stifled in the general public arena, as was done to atheists in the Des Moines bus case.  More often, I see that happen in forums where atheists predominate, and Christians are dismissed out of hand, shouted down or driven away with insults.  On many occasions, both in discussions where people are physically present, and in blogs like this one right here, I have stood up and called for fair and respectful treatment of Christians and other theists so that their opinions can be expressed without intimidation or upset. 

On another discussion board a few years ago, I argued again and again against vicious attacks against a Muslim woman, awful vitriol from Christians and atheists alike, simply because she was Muslim. She taught me by her example the value of patient engagement and respectful dialogue, and I consider her my friend.  I spend a good percent of my time getting in the faces of atheists  or anyone else who forget their manners, and if they dislike me for that, too bad. Freedom is freedom.  I don&#039;t distinguish between the freedom of those with one opinion and another.  We are either all free or none of us will be. 

Now your fair question comes back to you:

I assume from your screen name and your comment that you are a Christian.  Did &lt;em&gt;you&lt;/em&gt; take any action in this case to protect your freedom to express yourself from arbitrary discrimination, or did you leave it up to  me, an atheist, to protect your right to disagree with me? That&#039;s what I&#039;m doing. Talk is cheap. What you value is shown by what you actually do. 

There are plenty of other opportunities to help.  Will you stand beside a godless comrade?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GodisReal,<br />
Your question about what have I done to fight for Christian freedoms is a fair one.  Since Christians are the majority in this country, I seldom see their rights to express themselves stifled in the general public arena, as was done to atheists in the Des Moines bus case.  More often, I see that happen in forums where atheists predominate, and Christians are dismissed out of hand, shouted down or driven away with insults.  On many occasions, both in discussions where people are physically present, and in blogs like this one right here, I have stood up and called for fair and respectful treatment of Christians and other theists so that their opinions can be expressed without intimidation or upset. </p>
<p>On another discussion board a few years ago, I argued again and again against vicious attacks against a Muslim woman, awful vitriol from Christians and atheists alike, simply because she was Muslim. She taught me by her example the value of patient engagement and respectful dialogue, and I consider her my friend.  I spend a good percent of my time getting in the faces of atheists  or anyone else who forget their manners, and if they dislike me for that, too bad. Freedom is freedom.  I don&#8217;t distinguish between the freedom of those with one opinion and another.  We are either all free or none of us will be. </p>
<p>Now your fair question comes back to you:</p>
<p>I assume from your screen name and your comment that you are a Christian.  Did <em>you</em> take any action in this case to protect your freedom to express yourself from arbitrary discrimination, or did you leave it up to  me, an atheist, to protect your right to disagree with me? That&#8217;s what I&#8217;m doing. Talk is cheap. What you value is shown by what you actually do. </p>
<p>There are plenty of other opportunities to help.  Will you stand beside a godless comrade?</p>
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		<title>By: Keith (the pastor)</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/08/06/christians-do-you-defend-your-own-freedom/#comment-340594</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith (the pastor)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 23:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=14795#comment-340594</guid>
		<description>GodisReal, 

You said, &quot;Richard, I pose your question back to you as food for thought. What Christian freedoms have you fought for, defended, embraced? (For the sake of us all, right?)&quot;

You did read this thread, right?  Within the first two comments, Richard is standing up for Christians.  This week, Richard stood up for Christians when it was suggested that religion provided a rationalization for George Sodoni&#039;s crimes, drawing a contrast between providing and being used.  That&#039;s just a few of the times Richard has stood up for Christians in the three blog threads I&#039;ve followed this week ... something tells me Richard&#039;s thoughtfulness and selflessness has led him to stand up for the rights of theists at other times as well.  

Not sure if your question was sarcastic ... if it wasn&#039;t, I&#039;m glad ... and I hope this helps reassure that Richard is seeking to improve atheist/theist relations from both sides.  If it was, I&#039;d encourage you to spend more time reading the posts of those you interact with before assuming you know what they think.  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GodisReal, </p>
<p>You said, &#8220;Richard, I pose your question back to you as food for thought. What Christian freedoms have you fought for, defended, embraced? (For the sake of us all, right?)&#8221;</p>
<p>You did read this thread, right?  Within the first two comments, Richard is standing up for Christians.  This week, Richard stood up for Christians when it was suggested that religion provided a rationalization for George Sodoni&#8217;s crimes, drawing a contrast between providing and being used.  That&#8217;s just a few of the times Richard has stood up for Christians in the three blog threads I&#8217;ve followed this week &#8230; something tells me Richard&#8217;s thoughtfulness and selflessness has led him to stand up for the rights of theists at other times as well.  </p>
<p>Not sure if your question was sarcastic &#8230; if it wasn&#8217;t, I&#8217;m glad &#8230; and I hope this helps reassure that Richard is seeking to improve atheist/theist relations from both sides.  If it was, I&#8217;d encourage you to spend more time reading the posts of those you interact with before assuming you know what they think.  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: george.w</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/08/06/christians-do-you-defend-your-own-freedom/#comment-340563</link>
		<dc:creator>george.w</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 22:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=14795#comment-340563</guid>
		<description>Thank you Christians for standing up for freedom of speech.  It&#039;s vitally important for both sides.

&lt;blockquote&gt;GodIsReal said; &quot;@ Neon Genesis: Hmmm…atheists quote Bible scripture? Because you’re so well versed on its context and all, right?&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Just so you know, lots of atheists are ex-Christians.  Some are ex-ministers who went to college to learn about the bible and church history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Christians for standing up for freedom of speech.  It&#8217;s vitally important for both sides.</p>
<blockquote><p>GodIsReal said; &#8220;@ Neon Genesis: Hmmm…atheists quote Bible scripture? Because you’re so well versed on its context and all, right?&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Just so you know, lots of atheists are ex-Christians.  Some are ex-ministers who went to college to learn about the bible and church history.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/08/06/christians-do-you-defend-your-own-freedom/#comment-340442</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 16:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=14795#comment-340442</guid>
		<description>Sean the Blogonaut, 
Thank you. Looking all over the internet, I have only found articles saying that the tribunal would be held on Aug. 4, and one saying that it was held on that day, but nothing about the final decision and the actual remedy.  There was apparently quite a bit of deceit by Metro Tasmania. Have you found any credible citations of the official outcome?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean the Blogonaut,<br />
Thank you. Looking all over the internet, I have only found articles saying that the tribunal would be held on Aug. 4, and one saying that it was held on that day, but nothing about the final decision and the actual remedy.  There was apparently quite a bit of deceit by Metro Tasmania. Have you found any credible citations of the official outcome?</p>
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		<title>By: Keith (the pastor)</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/08/06/christians-do-you-defend-your-own-freedom/#comment-340410</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith (the pastor)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 15:48:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=14795#comment-340410</guid>
		<description>Revyloution,

:-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Revyloution,</p>
<p> <img src='http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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