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	<title>Comments on: The Will with the Jew-Only Clause</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/09/26/the-will-with-the-jew-only-clause/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/09/26/the-will-with-the-jew-only-clause/</link>
	<description>by Hemant Mehta</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 08:43:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Stephen P</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/09/26/the-will-with-the-jew-only-clause/#comment-370005</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:19:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=16467#comment-370005</guid>
		<description>Finn:
&lt;blockquote&gt;I’m a little surprised by all the kneejerk reactions calling the grandfather a bigot.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

Firstly: how do you know they were kneejerk reactions? How do you know how long each poster thought before posting?

More importantly: this person is threatening to deprive his grandchildren of a substantial sum of money; this is based not in any way on how good they are as people, or on how good their spouses are as people, but on the ethnic/religious group their spouse happened to be born into. If this is not bigotry, then what on earth do you think the word &#039;bigot&#039; means?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finn:</p>
<blockquote><p>I’m a little surprised by all the kneejerk reactions calling the grandfather a bigot.</p></blockquote>
<p>Firstly: how do you know they were kneejerk reactions? How do you know how long each poster thought before posting?</p>
<p>More importantly: this person is threatening to deprive his grandchildren of a substantial sum of money; this is based not in any way on how good they are as people, or on how good their spouses are as people, but on the ethnic/religious group their spouse happened to be born into. If this is not bigotry, then what on earth do you think the word &#8216;bigot&#8217; means?</p>
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		<title>By: stogoe</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/09/26/the-will-with-the-jew-only-clause/#comment-369942</link>
		<dc:creator>stogoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=16467#comment-369942</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;@DSimon… I think I baited an Ayn Rand worshiper.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Bad jemand!  Bad!  No!

I don&#039;t have any knowledge about the legality of grandpa bigot&#039;s booby-trapped will.  But I do know that&#039;s it&#039;s a dick move either way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>@DSimon… I think I baited an Ayn Rand worshiper.</p></blockquote>
<p>Bad jemand!  Bad!  No!</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have any knowledge about the legality of grandpa bigot&#8217;s booby-trapped will.  But I do know that&#8217;s it&#8217;s a dick move either way.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/09/26/the-will-with-the-jew-only-clause/#comment-369916</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=16467#comment-369916</guid>
		<description>In regard to Finns comments, it always amazes me how people are willing to let jews get away with things they don&#039;t let any other group get away with. How on earth is the ethnicity/culture/heritage talk supposed to make the grandfathers actions any better? If this was any other minority, we would all automatically recognize that that made it worse. If a black grandfather put a clause in his will saying that his grandchildren wouldn&#039;t inherit anything if they married a white person, we would all recognize that as bigotry instantly. Doesn&#039;t seeing judaism as an ethnicity put this grandfathers action even firmer in the same category as my hypothetical black grandfathers action?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In regard to Finns comments, it always amazes me how people are willing to let jews get away with things they don&#8217;t let any other group get away with. How on earth is the ethnicity/culture/heritage talk supposed to make the grandfathers actions any better? If this was any other minority, we would all automatically recognize that that made it worse. If a black grandfather put a clause in his will saying that his grandchildren wouldn&#8217;t inherit anything if they married a white person, we would all recognize that as bigotry instantly. Doesn&#8217;t seeing judaism as an ethnicity put this grandfathers action even firmer in the same category as my hypothetical black grandfathers action?</p>
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		<title>By: Steven</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/09/26/the-will-with-the-jew-only-clause/#comment-369902</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:42:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=16467#comment-369902</guid>
		<description>I suspect that this sort of thing is not that uncommon. It seems that while a parent&#039;s or grandparent&#039;s love might be unconditional if you want their cash you better not &quot;disappoint&quot; them. Fortunately for me, my parents have always had more love than cash and I won&#039;t be inheriting (in the distant future - please.) much more than good memories. My mother-in-law on the other hand is reasonably well-off and regularly threatens to &quot;spend it all&quot; or &quot;just leave it to the grandchildren&quot; whenever we piss her off. Being a gentleman, I have resisted the temptation to tell her to stuff it up her withered backside.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect that this sort of thing is not that uncommon. It seems that while a parent&#8217;s or grandparent&#8217;s love might be unconditional if you want their cash you better not &#8220;disappoint&#8221; them. Fortunately for me, my parents have always had more love than cash and I won&#8217;t be inheriting (in the distant future &#8211; please.) much more than good memories. My mother-in-law on the other hand is reasonably well-off and regularly threatens to &#8220;spend it all&#8221; or &#8220;just leave it to the grandchildren&#8221; whenever we piss her off. Being a gentleman, I have resisted the temptation to tell her to stuff it up her withered backside.</p>
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		<title>By: TXatheist</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/09/26/the-will-with-the-jew-only-clause/#comment-369899</link>
		<dc:creator>TXatheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=16467#comment-369899</guid>
		<description>Judaism is on it&#039;s way out, thank Darwin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judaism is on it&#8217;s way out, thank Darwin.</p>
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		<title>By: Finn</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/09/26/the-will-with-the-jew-only-clause/#comment-369779</link>
		<dc:creator>Finn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 01:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=16467#comment-369779</guid>
		<description>On &quot;proof&quot;: In other similar cases (believe me, there have been a lot), it was often specified that the spouse had to have Jewish parents in order to be considered Jewish for the purposes of the will.

I&#039;m a little surprised by all the kneejerk reactions calling the grandfather a bigot. In a lot of ways Jewishness is more an ethnic and cultural identity than a religion, and there&#039;s a real sense of being an &quot;endangered species,&quot; if you will. In one famous case, the father specified that his sons had to marry a Jewish woman by a certain age in order to get the inheritance (his only daughter was already married and living in Israel at the time), and if they didn&#039;t, the money went to the state of Israel. The court basically pointed out that he was obviously trying to use his money to maintain the Jewish state, whether through his own offspring or not.

I think this is probably more about maintaining your &quot;heritage&quot; through the family line than religion, especially given that we&#039;re talking Judaism here and not, say, some branch of fundamentalist Christianity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On &#8220;proof&#8221;: In other similar cases (believe me, there have been a lot), it was often specified that the spouse had to have Jewish parents in order to be considered Jewish for the purposes of the will.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a little surprised by all the kneejerk reactions calling the grandfather a bigot. In a lot of ways Jewishness is more an ethnic and cultural identity than a religion, and there&#8217;s a real sense of being an &#8220;endangered species,&#8221; if you will. In one famous case, the father specified that his sons had to marry a Jewish woman by a certain age in order to get the inheritance (his only daughter was already married and living in Israel at the time), and if they didn&#8217;t, the money went to the state of Israel. The court basically pointed out that he was obviously trying to use his money to maintain the Jewish state, whether through his own offspring or not.</p>
<p>I think this is probably more about maintaining your &#8220;heritage&#8221; through the family line than religion, especially given that we&#8217;re talking Judaism here and not, say, some branch of fundamentalist Christianity.</p>
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		<title>By: AxeGrrl</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/09/26/the-will-with-the-jew-only-clause/#comment-369408</link>
		<dc:creator>AxeGrrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 08:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=16467#comment-369408</guid>
		<description>Delphine wrote:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I’m always slightly disgusted at people who consider inheritance their “right”. This sense of entitlement is totally beyond me.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

This.

Where the hell do people get the nerve to try to contest the will (literally and figuratively) of a relative?  Gramma has every right to leave her entire fortune to her &lt;em&gt;cats&lt;/em&gt; if she wants to.

Where &lt;em&gt;does&lt;/em&gt; this sense of &#039;entitlement&#039; come from anyway?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Delphine wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>I’m always slightly disgusted at people who consider inheritance their “right”. This sense of entitlement is totally beyond me.</p></blockquote>
<p>This.</p>
<p>Where the hell do people get the nerve to try to contest the will (literally and figuratively) of a relative?  Gramma has every right to leave her entire fortune to her <em>cats</em> if she wants to.</p>
<p>Where <em>does</em> this sense of &#8216;entitlement&#8217; come from anyway?</p>
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		<title>By: Jerad</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/09/26/the-will-with-the-jew-only-clause/#comment-369397</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 07:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=16467#comment-369397</guid>
		<description>While I agree with his right to be a jerk in his inheritance, also who is he to force the court to determine a person&#039;s religion? I think the best option for the woman (if married) would be to say here&#039;s my husband, a non practicing jew.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree with his right to be a jerk in his inheritance, also who is he to force the court to determine a person&#8217;s religion? I think the best option for the woman (if married) would be to say here&#8217;s my husband, a non practicing jew.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen P</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/09/26/the-will-with-the-jew-only-clause/#comment-369386</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 06:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=16467#comment-369386</guid>
		<description>My first reaction was to agree with the court and with the first few commentators. But on thinking further, I have partly changed my mind.

Yes, it is the testator&#039;s money and it is his decision where it should go. But I think that if he wants to cut out one of his five grandchildren he should have to change his will to say explicitly that the money is to go to A, B, D and E. And if B then does something he disagrees with, he should have to change his will again to leave the money to A, D and E. In other words he can be a jerk, but he has to do some work if he wants to be a jerk. He shouldn&#039;t be allowed to leave a paper booby-trap lying around.

The only conditional clauses allowed should be to cover the situation if a person dies or an organisation ceases to exist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My first reaction was to agree with the court and with the first few commentators. But on thinking further, I have partly changed my mind.</p>
<p>Yes, it is the testator&#8217;s money and it is his decision where it should go. But I think that if he wants to cut out one of his five grandchildren he should have to change his will to say explicitly that the money is to go to A, B, D and E. And if B then does something he disagrees with, he should have to change his will again to leave the money to A, D and E. In other words he can be a jerk, but he has to do some work if he wants to be a jerk. He shouldn&#8217;t be allowed to leave a paper booby-trap lying around.</p>
<p>The only conditional clauses allowed should be to cover the situation if a person dies or an organisation ceases to exist.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/09/26/the-will-with-the-jew-only-clause/#comment-369360</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 04:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=16467#comment-369360</guid>
		<description>I have to side with the court as well.  There are plenty of legal structures to prevent problematic wills from being enforced.  This one does not violate them.  

It&#039;s cumbersome, yes.  He certainly didn&#039;t have to deem them &quot;deceased&quot; for purposes of the will.  Wills can contain language that devises property based on conditions without having to go quite that far.

Also, @Bobby, Volokh wouldn&#039;t apply, as I see it.  The court wasn&#039;t deciding who&#039;s Jewish and who is not.  It&#039;s deciding whether the clause in the will is valid as applied to the grandchildren.

@muggle - The Rule Against Perpetuities prevents a testator from controlling the property that many generations down the road.  Most states have enacted a version of it for property transactions and wills/trusts.  It goes like this: &quot;No interest is good unless it must vest, if at all, no later than 21 years after some life in existence at the creation of the interest.&quot;

In other words, if X is the last grandkid born during the grandfather&#039;s life, the will may not control the property for more than 21 years after X&#039;s death.  (roughly)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to side with the court as well.  There are plenty of legal structures to prevent problematic wills from being enforced.  This one does not violate them.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s cumbersome, yes.  He certainly didn&#8217;t have to deem them &#8220;deceased&#8221; for purposes of the will.  Wills can contain language that devises property based on conditions without having to go quite that far.</p>
<p>Also, @Bobby, Volokh wouldn&#8217;t apply, as I see it.  The court wasn&#8217;t deciding who&#8217;s Jewish and who is not.  It&#8217;s deciding whether the clause in the will is valid as applied to the grandchildren.</p>
<p>@muggle &#8211; The Rule Against Perpetuities prevents a testator from controlling the property that many generations down the road.  Most states have enacted a version of it for property transactions and wills/trusts.  It goes like this: &#8220;No interest is good unless it must vest, if at all, no later than 21 years after some life in existence at the creation of the interest.&#8221;</p>
<p>In other words, if X is the last grandkid born during the grandfather&#8217;s life, the will may not control the property for more than 21 years after X&#8217;s death.  (roughly)</p>
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