I’ve been gradually losing my faith over the last couple of years. I was raised in and still attend services at what I would call a hyperconservative church in Tennessee. While I do not believe, I continue to attend out of respect for my wife’s devotion. When we got married, we were both sincere believers, and she still is.

With just a few minor edits (my “last couple of years” are more like eight), I could have written this paragraph. Though I don’t personally “number myself among the atheists” (rather as more agnostic with pantheist sympathies), I understand completely having to reconcile a change of beliefs with the social costs that acting on them would incur.

It’s highly unlikely that an ultra-conservative church will move away from what it considers to be “core doctrine” at any other than glacial speed. You and your family will thus have to determine how well the three of you and the church can co-exist. Would migrating to another church or denomination be feasible, or is there external pressure on either of you to retain the “faith of your fathers”? I would also imagine that, however abhorrent the church’s doctrinal line might be, bonds of community and deep friendships have built up that would be traumatic to abandon and still more daunting to rebuild elsewhere. All this has factored into my decision to stay where I am (like yourself, becoming a gadfly in group discussions, though I haven’t encountered anything resembling the hostility that you’ve faced). Everyone’s journey through this thicket is unique, though, and there’s likely lots of painful negotiation and sleepless nights ahead. For myself, disagreements over metaphysics are no match for the primacy of my family’s unity, and I suspect that you’re seeing things the same way.

Incidentally, does this church happen to be a Church of Christ? I noticed many of its artifacts – the “gospel meeting”, the overarching authority of “the elders”, the echoes of “disfellowshipping” in your “marking” – in your account. If so, well, turns out we’ve got even more in common. If in addition you happen to live around Memphis – a meet-up over an adult beverage or two might be in order. Wonderful as online community is (me, I’m all about the lurkage), we still have to function in a real world – one we now suddenly view in fundamentally different terms then those among whom we live and move and have our being. Liberating as this may be, it’s still a lonely place.

I’m not a member, so the church leaders have no authority over me, they can’t mark me because I’m not a member, and they can’t kick me out because that would be uncharitable and inhospitable.

A fascinating situation. I suspect a lot of churches would kick you out anyway, so apparently yours has a certain degree of integrity. That deserves respect.

Many members express doubt about what he says, but are too afraid to object.
…
I have had about a dozen or so members express thanks privately for what I am doing and that it helps them to hear someone challenging authority in the church.

The best possible reason for carrying on. Good luck.

Your response to the “joking” threats was exactly correct. Given the context, it is not “hypersensitive” for you to look them right in the eye and call their bluff. Being couched as a joke makes no difference. This is exactly the kind of smug, I-have-God’s-permission-to-do-whatever-I-want attitude that you have been challenging, just like the reprehensible statement by the teacher that he’d like to kill his daughter. The leaders of that church would love to take us all back to the iron age and have their vicious fantasies be the law of the land, decreed capriciously by them. Joking or not, that kind of authoritarianism should be challenged toe-to-toe every time, otherwise it grows and spreads. Bullies are cowards who crumble when you turn to face them, especially bullies who think their Goon in the sky is going to do their fighting for them.

I wish you well in your struggle. I expect you’ll help a few people to start having more sane attitudes about social issues, and maybe even pose some hard questions of their own to those Little Caesars of God. A large number of apostates coming from the congregation is probably not likely, and I don’t get the impression that that is actually your intention. I think you would be happy to simply see more humane attitudes in that church, and so would the rest of us.

The story in Joshua 6 is revolting not because of the casualties suffered due to those physically crushed by the material of the walls that came down, but because of the subsequent slaughter (supposedly commanded by God) of all men, women, young and old, cattle, sheep, goats, and donkeys. Nothing was to be spared except for the silver, gold, bronze, and iron. The church gets those things.

Then apparently (as told in Joshua 7), someone kept a little treasure for themselves (against God’s commandment). The entire family was gathered up and slaughtered (including the sons and daughters). This supposedly appeased a very angry God. Lovely.

I remember discussing this story in small group and the study guide using it as an example of God’s love in helping to bring the walls down. When I brought up that the story was disgusting, they were astonished that I would think so. When I told them it was disgusting because genocide is considered bad, they looked at me with disbelief. Their minds simply couldn’t consider that God commanding to kill every living person (and animal) as being anything bad. “If God said to do it, it is good by definition (no matter what it is).”

Jeff

apparently I am getting the cold shoulder here but I shall try my best anyway.

1) That was a brave thing to do, although note that your church doesn’t represent Christianity as a whole. As for Jericho, “walls” refer to the city walls, not to the walls of people’s houses. Most likely, children would not be out on the city walls, so that there would be no innocent children dying as a result of the city walls falling. Incidentally, archaeology done at Jericho has revealed that Jericho mostly submitted without a fight, so that there were very few casualties.

3) Well, it is encouraging that you can work things out with your wife, and hopefully that will reflect well on your child. Still, I wonder, is your son baptized yet? He would be, right?

The Golden Rule did not originate in the Bible, but the point about the Bible is that it originates from God, so everything in it, including the Golden Rule, originates from God. That’s the Christian belief, at least.

4) Good for your wife. I would guess she treasures your relationship with her more than anything else. Still though, the last I heard marriage is supposed to involve sacrifice on both sides of the fence; in this instance, what are you sacrificing?

Incidentally, have you ever thought that the reason both of you lead “secular lives” is because she is trying to accommodate you? What to you is “playing religious” to her might be a genuine expression of belief in constrained circumstances.

5) The wink and the nudge should have indicated to you that they were joking. You were being hypersensitive in threatening to report them to the authorities.

I find it ironic: if it were the reverse situation, no doubt there would be another letter complaining about “hypersensitive” theists. Double standard much?

6) Well, just because you start people questioning, doesn’t mean that they will abandon the faith.

7) “marking” is certainly un-christian behaviour, and not something Christ would approve of. Although a suggestion: you might want to endorse Theistic Evolution, which uses a thematic reading to Genesis 1 as opposed to a chronological reading. Most likely, what your elder was really reacting against was your (implicit or maybe explicit) assertion that evolution disproves the existence of God.

Good luck with your life, and stay firm. And since I am a Christian, God bless you even if you don’t believe in Him.

Regards,
your friendly neighbourhood Theist

About a month ago, I wrote a letter to the church notifying them that I no longer considered myself a member because I did not share their beliefs. I expressed my doubts about a number of things and shared my frustration of being surrounded by anti-science attitudes since I am a licensed, professional civil engineer. I also noted that I felt their portrayal of morality was innappropriate when it comes to such topics as genocide and slavery. I even quoted a song that they sing often about the walls falling down at Jericho, and noted how I couldn’t sing it because all I could think about was innocent children being slaughtered. I asked for their continued friendship and let them know that my wife wished to remain a member for the time being. As such, I expected them to treat her with the utmost respect as Jesus would surely exhort them to do this. I also made myself available to meet with anyone who had any questions.

My wife was very upset during the week leading up to the letter, but has since been adjusting as best she can. Rather than talking about it in one huge session, we’ve been discussing it a step at a time with each topic that comes up. I asked her to start coming to all the classes I am in so she can be with me when these things are said (she was teaching the baby class and wasn’t in the room for the incident mentioned in my letter, but she was horrified by what was said). She is starting to question some of the behavior and things said in church as well, so that seems to be a good start. We have a two year old little boy so that further complicates things. We have agreed that we will present both of our ideas to him and focus on teaching him to be a good, ethical person. I’m not opposed to pulling some good things out of the Bible to teach lessons about how we live, such as the Golden Rule. And yes I know that the Golden Rule did not originate in the Bible, but that’s not the point. The point is we’re trying to focus on common things we agree with and how we would like our son to behave when he is an adult.

We’re still working through issues like prayer, heaven, etc. and that will just take some time. She still considers herself a devoted believer, but is alright with me publicly expressing my dissent. Sometimes she even agrees with me. She doesn’t like a lot of attention, but she wants me to be honest with people. I’ve told her that if it gets to a point where she feels it has crossed a line and she needs me to stop that I will do that. Right now, I believe she is afraid more than anything else. She hasn’t been able to bring herself to admit that she and I both have led secular lives since we’ve been married. We’ve never really prayed together, we rarely study the Bible outside of church unless it’s for one of my debunking sessions, and we generally don’t consult the Bible or it’s teachings when we make decisions. We lead a secular life while mostly playing at being religious. I hope that I can get her to realize that. I’m hopeful that the combination of time, love, and patience will help work things out. As far as collateral damage to her goes, it appears that the admonition in the letter has worked pretty well. She has been treated well by everyone with the exception of one close former friend. This friend has completely shunned us, and this has been a difficult thing for my wife. I have apologized for causing the loss of her friend, but also pointed out that she hadn’t done anything to deserve this treatment and real friends, regardless of their belief system or lack thereof, don’t act like that. That one made a big impression on her. I am aware of the potential impacts to both my wife and son. Hopefully I can maintain a respectful balance, but if push comes to shove, I’m going to choose my wife and keep my mouth shut.

As far as the letter and the overall dissent goes, I have had three threats veiled in the disguise of humor. An example would be when one of the elders told me that in the old days, they had special nine irons to deal with people like me (all of this is done with a wink and an elbow nudge). I have found the best response to this so far has been to simply say that I cannot distinguish whether or not they are joking, and if they don’t apologize and let me know that they weren’t seriously threatening me, then I would have to report their statement as a threat to the authorities. In each instance so far, this has triggered an immediate apology and caused them to back down.

The teacher mentioned in the original letter continues to teach and I continue to use his words against him. Many members express doubt about what he says, but are too afraid to object. That’s why I still continue to go and dissent even though I’m no longer a member. If I start the questioning process for some of these people, several of whom I’ve been close friends with for a number of years, then I think that I’ve given them something worthwhile.

Part of my overall exit strategy was to renounce my membership before the church leadership could ‘mark’ me. Marking is simply being publicly called out as sinful and ordering the members to withdraw fellowship from a person. If that happened, members could only talk to me about repentence. If the topic turns to football or anything else, they have to walk away or it is a sin. By quitting without being marked, I am able to still attend and participate in discussions. I’m not a member, so the church leaders have no authority over me, they can’t mark me because I’m not a member, and they can’t kick me out because that would be uncharitable and inhospitable. They know this, and the best they can do is disagree with me. This has prompted a number of interesting responses from the church. I started a blog to air my doubts and discuss these things. Almost every time I post something, either the preacher or elders post an article trying to address it. During a private discussion about the evidence for evolution from Lenski’s experiments, an elder finally relented and admitted that evolution probably happened. This prompted the church to bring in additional speakers for the planned 2010 spring gospel meeting to address the ‘falsehoods’ of evolution. I have had about a dozen or so members express thanks privately for what I am doing and that it helps them to hear someone challenging authority in the church. I’m not sure how long I can continue this because it can be frustrating at times, but when I see comments such as “Thank God Barker and Loftus left, think of all the damage they could have done”, it makes me think I’m doing a good thing. I hope that I can work something out to attempt a debate with the anti-evolution speakers in the spring. From my experience so far, evolution seems to be the key. So many people are so heavily indoctrinated against it, that when they actually see the evidence calmly and reasonably presented by someone they personally know is a good person, it creates massive cognitive dissonance. Massive cognitive dissonance sets the stage for doubt, and doubt leads to more questions. It won’t work for everyone, but it does seem to create an opening.

I appreciate the comments and the thoughts put forward today. This has been and continues to be both a difficult change and also a thrilling time in my life, and I’m trying to move forward as best I can. It’s nice not to feel alone for a change. If anybody has additional questions or advice, I’d be glad to hear it. I no longer pretend to have all the answers, and at the end of the day, I’m just trying to be a good person. Thanks again.

- “Bill”

but from my experience, prepare for battle! Inside your home and outside. If you have the strength to question, you should have the strength to endure.

It may be worth continuing to argue your corner if you can do so in a reasonably detached fashion. You might just change one or two minds. If however every discussion leaves you feeling badly stressed, with pulse racing and blood-pressure raised, then you’d be much better off leaving.

And if you do leave, I suggest not giving as the reason that you have lost your faith (which will make it very easy for them to ignore you totally) but that you consider them to be teaching an immoral caricature of Christianity, or words to that effect (which, again, might just possibly have an effect on one or two people).

If you really want a ruckus, you could tell him that you’d reported him. None of which is much in line with Richard’s good advice, but it would definitely provoke a serious (or perhaps just heated) discussion within the church and within your marriage. And might just save a young girl’s life.

Sooner or later, though, you are going to have to talk to your wife about the status of your belief. I suppose you could potentially re-enact your loss of faith more publicly to make it a gradual transition for her; or just step up and take your lumps in one revelation. Either way, the kind of incident you’re telling us about would be a good time to express your disagreement to your wife with at least the more savage parts of the bible and your church. Personally I’d say that you could walk out of that church on the strength of that one incident alone.