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	<title>Comments on: No Crucifixes in Italian Public Schools Anymore</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/04/no-crucifixes-in-italian-public-schools-anymore/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/04/no-crucifixes-in-italian-public-schools-anymore/</link>
	<description>by Hemant Mehta</description>
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		<title>By: muggle</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/04/no-crucifixes-in-italian-public-schools-anymore/#comment-391299</link>
		<dc:creator>muggle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:55:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=17949#comment-391299</guid>
		<description>I concur.  Good riddance.  

I also concur with Edmond.  Religion is dying. The horrors we are seeing now are its death throes.  It doesn&#039;t go down without a fight -- unfortunately. 

And crippled or not, if I live to see its demise, I am going to join the dancing in the street!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I concur.  Good riddance.  </p>
<p>I also concur with Edmond.  Religion is dying. The horrors we are seeing now are its death throes.  It doesn&#8217;t go down without a fight &#8212; unfortunately. </p>
<p>And crippled or not, if I live to see its demise, I am going to join the dancing in the street!</p>
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		<title>By: Devil's Advocate</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/04/no-crucifixes-in-italian-public-schools-anymore/#comment-391243</link>
		<dc:creator>Devil's Advocate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=17949#comment-391243</guid>
		<description>I am an athiest, but I must say that I am saddened by some of the comments on here. Like Dawkins, I consider myself a cultural christian, in that I acknowledge the effect that this religion had on the shaping European history, culture and philosophies and thus, ultimately, me. 

I can listen to the cantatas of Bach offered for the greater glory of god without mocking his beliefs. I can revel in the physical and allegorical beauty of Michalangelo&#039;s &lt;em&gt;pieta&lt;/em&gt; without scoffing at the immaculate conception and resurrection. I certainly would not want to see something like Chatres turned into something gaudy and obscene. 

The crucifix does symobolise christianity, yet get away from the trappings of the religion, the supernatural being, the horrific biblia, there is an inherent nobility to christ and &lt;strong&gt;some&lt;/strong&gt; of his followers. This aspect (love) motivated men and women to do great things. Admittedly other aspects have also inspired terrible, however right they thought they were.

I think that athiests getting too gleeful at sticking the boot into the benighted enlightened are in grave danger of repeating the latter. Many of us think that we are doing the right thing, ignoring the example of those who did as we do, though motivated differently.

Getting rid of crucifixes on all public buildings demonstrates too much willingness to dismiss the past and the way in which it has shaped us and society. Pulling down the old icons to deify the new is obscene and alienates the moderate elements in society at the expense of an antagonistic minority swelling at their own self-importance. It is downright Orwellian.

People who demand that things be pulled down should be ignored, especially if they do so because said object &#039;offends&#039; them. People need to stop being so bloody precious and deal with it, everyone should be offended at least once a day. Besides, I was educated at a Catholic school, devout as can be until I read the bible when I was 12 and could not reconcile it and articles of faith with science. Crucifixes on walls certainly did not oppress me if I ever noticed them at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am an athiest, but I must say that I am saddened by some of the comments on here. Like Dawkins, I consider myself a cultural christian, in that I acknowledge the effect that this religion had on the shaping European history, culture and philosophies and thus, ultimately, me. </p>
<p>I can listen to the cantatas of Bach offered for the greater glory of god without mocking his beliefs. I can revel in the physical and allegorical beauty of Michalangelo&#8217;s <em>pieta</em> without scoffing at the immaculate conception and resurrection. I certainly would not want to see something like Chatres turned into something gaudy and obscene. </p>
<p>The crucifix does symobolise christianity, yet get away from the trappings of the religion, the supernatural being, the horrific biblia, there is an inherent nobility to christ and <strong>some</strong> of his followers. This aspect (love) motivated men and women to do great things. Admittedly other aspects have also inspired terrible, however right they thought they were.</p>
<p>I think that athiests getting too gleeful at sticking the boot into the benighted enlightened are in grave danger of repeating the latter. Many of us think that we are doing the right thing, ignoring the example of those who did as we do, though motivated differently.</p>
<p>Getting rid of crucifixes on all public buildings demonstrates too much willingness to dismiss the past and the way in which it has shaped us and society. Pulling down the old icons to deify the new is obscene and alienates the moderate elements in society at the expense of an antagonistic minority swelling at their own self-importance. It is downright Orwellian.</p>
<p>People who demand that things be pulled down should be ignored, especially if they do so because said object &#8216;offends&#8217; them. People need to stop being so bloody precious and deal with it, everyone should be offended at least once a day. Besides, I was educated at a Catholic school, devout as can be until I read the bible when I was 12 and could not reconcile it and articles of faith with science. Crucifixes on walls certainly did not oppress me if I ever noticed them at all.</p>
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		<title>By: pinkydead</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/04/no-crucifixes-in-italian-public-schools-anymore/#comment-391241</link>
		<dc:creator>pinkydead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=17949#comment-391241</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;“I think a longstanding tradition like the crucifix can’t be offensive to anyone”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Maybe he has a point.  He should at least be given the opportunity to test this viewpoint - that&#039;s really the only fair option.

So if he can&#039;t find anyone who finds it offensive then they should be allowed to keep their zombie sticks.

Wait, the results are in already:  at least two people find it offensive - Soile Lautsi and me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>“I think a longstanding tradition like the crucifix can’t be offensive to anyone”</p></blockquote>
<p>Maybe he has a point.  He should at least be given the opportunity to test this viewpoint &#8211; that&#8217;s really the only fair option.</p>
<p>So if he can&#8217;t find anyone who finds it offensive then they should be allowed to keep their zombie sticks.</p>
<p>Wait, the results are in already:  at least two people find it offensive &#8211; Soile Lautsi and me.</p>
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		<title>By: Edmond</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/04/no-crucifixes-in-italian-public-schools-anymore/#comment-391174</link>
		<dc:creator>Edmond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 07:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=17949#comment-391174</guid>
		<description>Religion... is... DYING!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Religion&#8230; is&#8230; DYING!!</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/04/no-crucifixes-in-italian-public-schools-anymore/#comment-391125</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 02:56:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=17949#comment-391125</guid>
		<description>Without the crucifixes how will they keep the vampires away?  Won&#039;t someone think of the children?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without the crucifixes how will they keep the vampires away?  Won&#8217;t someone think of the children?</p>
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		<title>By: Tommaso</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/04/no-crucifixes-in-italian-public-schools-anymore/#comment-391059</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommaso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=17949#comment-391059</guid>
		<description>I went to public school in Italy K-2nd grade and my parents had to force the admins to offer an alternative class to &#039;Religion&#039; because it was solely focused on catholicism. 

At first it was awkward with other parents (and apparently I complained that I wanted to be in Religion class because I wanted to be with my friends), but eventually more and more parents started sending their kids to  &#039;Alternative&#039; class where we talked about ancient stories myths and the morals that they teach. 

I had to go back to public schools to take my Middle School accreditation exam and had a really hard time concentrating with the bloody christ on the wall. Keep in mind, this is the full on gory catholic christ, not the barren protestant cross. Pretty gross to be staring at while trying to remember how to do multiplication problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went to public school in Italy K-2nd grade and my parents had to force the admins to offer an alternative class to &#8216;Religion&#8217; because it was solely focused on catholicism. </p>
<p>At first it was awkward with other parents (and apparently I complained that I wanted to be in Religion class because I wanted to be with my friends), but eventually more and more parents started sending their kids to  &#8216;Alternative&#8217; class where we talked about ancient stories myths and the morals that they teach. </p>
<p>I had to go back to public schools to take my Middle School accreditation exam and had a really hard time concentrating with the bloody christ on the wall. Keep in mind, this is the full on gory catholic christ, not the barren protestant cross. Pretty gross to be staring at while trying to remember how to do multiplication problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Amyable Atheist</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/04/no-crucifixes-in-italian-public-schools-anymore/#comment-391007</link>
		<dc:creator>Amyable Atheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=17949#comment-391007</guid>
		<description>Just to clarify, with that joke I didn&#039;t by any mean to imply that (a) Catholic schools are necessarily good at teaching math (especially not in my case!) or that (b) the cross ISN&#039;T a universal symbol of Christianity (for anyone besides the unindoctrinated), because of course it is. There, I fell better, hehe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to clarify, with that joke I didn&#8217;t by any mean to imply that (a) Catholic schools are necessarily good at teaching math (especially not in my case!) or that (b) the cross ISN&#8217;T a universal symbol of Christianity (for anyone besides the unindoctrinated), because of course it is. There, I fell better, hehe.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/04/no-crucifixes-in-italian-public-schools-anymore/#comment-390984</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=17949#comment-390984</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;“I think a longstanding tradition like the crucifix can’t be offensive to anyone&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

Why is it that people think that because a bad idea is old, that makes it a good idea?  How does the length of the beard on an inappropriate practice make it an appropriate practice?  

Fill in the blank with your own &quot;longstanding tradition&quot;:

&quot;I think a longstanding tradition like __________ can’t be offensive to anyone.” 

Just a few suggestions:
forced marriage
reviling gays
beating wives
binding girls&#039; feet
burning forests for one season of agriculture
genital mutilation
killing apostates
torturing and killing animals for sport
infanticide for gender preference
oppressing minorities
using rhinoceros horn to enhance erections 
jailing political dissidents
torturing to extract information
war

These can&#039;t be offensive to anyone because they&#039;ve been around for centuries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>“I think a longstanding tradition like the crucifix can’t be offensive to anyone&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Why is it that people think that because a bad idea is old, that makes it a good idea?  How does the length of the beard on an inappropriate practice make it an appropriate practice?  </p>
<p>Fill in the blank with your own &#8220;longstanding tradition&#8221;:</p>
<p>&#8220;I think a longstanding tradition like __________ can’t be offensive to anyone.” </p>
<p>Just a few suggestions:<br />
forced marriage<br />
reviling gays<br />
beating wives<br />
binding girls&#8217; feet<br />
burning forests for one season of agriculture<br />
genital mutilation<br />
killing apostates<br />
torturing and killing animals for sport<br />
infanticide for gender preference<br />
oppressing minorities<br />
using rhinoceros horn to enhance erections<br />
jailing political dissidents<br />
torturing to extract information<br />
war</p>
<p>These can&#8217;t be offensive to anyone because they&#8217;ve been around for centuries.</p>
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		<title>By: Amyable Atheist</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/04/no-crucifixes-in-italian-public-schools-anymore/#comment-390977</link>
		<dc:creator>Amyable Atheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=17949#comment-390977</guid>
		<description>Great news! Speaking of secular trends in Europe, did you catch the NYT op-ed piece about a week ago speculating that Pope&#039;s conserva-grab at the Anglican Church could have the unintended consequence of progressing Britain towards complete secularism? Sorry for no link but their site doesn&#039;t let me use the search function lately.

And now if you&#039;ll indulge me, this totally reminds me of a great joke...

Jimmy was doing poorly in math at the public school so his parents sent him to Catholic school to straighten him out.  After his first day of Catholic school, he comes home, goes straight to his room and does his homework immediately.  This goes on until his first report card, when he gets an A in math. Delighted, his parents ask what the nuns did differently - was it the discipline? some innovative technique? No, says Jimmy - &quot;when I walked in the first day and saw that guy nailed to the plus sign, I know those nuns meant business!&quot;

Thank you and remember to tip your server...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great news! Speaking of secular trends in Europe, did you catch the NYT op-ed piece about a week ago speculating that Pope&#8217;s conserva-grab at the Anglican Church could have the unintended consequence of progressing Britain towards complete secularism? Sorry for no link but their site doesn&#8217;t let me use the search function lately.</p>
<p>And now if you&#8217;ll indulge me, this totally reminds me of a great joke&#8230;</p>
<p>Jimmy was doing poorly in math at the public school so his parents sent him to Catholic school to straighten him out.  After his first day of Catholic school, he comes home, goes straight to his room and does his homework immediately.  This goes on until his first report card, when he gets an A in math. Delighted, his parents ask what the nuns did differently &#8211; was it the discipline? some innovative technique? No, says Jimmy &#8211; &#8220;when I walked in the first day and saw that guy nailed to the plus sign, I know those nuns meant business!&#8221;</p>
<p>Thank you and remember to tip your server&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: sc0tt</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/04/no-crucifixes-in-italian-public-schools-anymore/#comment-390973</link>
		<dc:creator>sc0tt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=17949#comment-390973</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Crucifixes were an undeniable symbol of Catholicism, the court ruled.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Somebody should explain that to Scalia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Crucifixes were an undeniable symbol of Catholicism, the court ruled.</p></blockquote>
<p>Somebody should explain that to Scalia.</p>
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