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	<title>Comments on: High Schooler Gets in Trouble After Not Standing for the Pledge of Allegiance</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/17/high-schooler-gets-in-trouble-after-not-standing-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/17/high-schooler-gets-in-trouble-after-not-standing-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/</link>
	<description>by Hemant Mehta</description>
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		<title>By: muggle</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/17/high-schooler-gets-in-trouble-after-not-standing-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/#comment-397627</link>
		<dc:creator>muggle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18310#comment-397627</guid>
		<description>Now, that&#039;s a weird coincidence.  I&#039;m home from work today because my bum leg is acting up (I can barely walk) and just as I hit submit, got a call from the guy in personnel who deals with discrimination and sexual harrassment issues regarding some e-mails I sent him about some sexist remarks made and on-going issues with my boss and the coworker I work with.  Keep your fingers crossed.  He&#039;s meeting with me Monday.  No nothing religion-related -- for a change.  Just bullying and sexist remarks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now, that&#8217;s a weird coincidence.  I&#8217;m home from work today because my bum leg is acting up (I can barely walk) and just as I hit submit, got a call from the guy in personnel who deals with discrimination and sexual harrassment issues regarding some e-mails I sent him about some sexist remarks made and on-going issues with my boss and the coworker I work with.  Keep your fingers crossed.  He&#8217;s meeting with me Monday.  No nothing religion-related &#8212; for a change.  Just bullying and sexist remarks.</p>
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		<title>By: muggle</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/17/high-schooler-gets-in-trouble-after-not-standing-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/#comment-397618</link>
		<dc:creator>muggle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18310#comment-397618</guid>
		<description>Daniel, sorry I didn&#039;t see this sooner but I want to absolutely encourage you.  You did the right thing making a stand and you are doing the right thing now by respecting your parents&#039; wishes.  You may have lost the battle but not the war.  

Whether FFRF&#039;s letter will help, I don&#039;t know.  They&#039;re very good and have often made a difference.  (I&#039;ve been a member for 13 years.)  In any case, you have my support and admiration.  This was very brave of you and I know you will make a difference in the future if you haven&#039;t already.  (You may very will have, in others you&#039;re inspiring as will as in the letter to your school district.)

I don&#039;t think you&#039;re conceding the battle by standing.  You are merely living to fight another day.  You gain nothing from the principal (illegal as it might be) standing in the way of your graduation.  With the diploma, you can further your education, whether you go into the law or some other field that interests you, and go out into this world as an adult and fight for your rights and those of others.  Others&#039; rights are important because it makes for the society we live in and inevitably protects our own.  I&#039;ve a feeling you already realize this.

I had a friend in junior high with a similar problem with our homeroom teacher who wouldn&#039;t stand for the pledge because he was a Jehovah&#039;s Witness.  In the end, he didn&#039;t have to and the principal told the teacher she couldn&#039;t make him but she gave him a hard time for a couple of weeks.  He hung in there and we kids backed him up (though if I had that to go back and do over again, I&#039;d encourage the lot of us to sit down with him and do our own sit down strike; I didn&#039;t know my rights back then, I only learned because of his actions that Jehovah&#039;s Witnesses didn&#039;t have to) because we liked him and didn&#039;t like the teacher.  We did do the pledge but there was a lot of foot shuffling, coughing, sneezing, etc. until the principal made her relent.  Hmm, any chance some of your friends might join you in that sort of thing?

If you&#039;re still uncomfortable with it, you can do what I did in high school and no one will ever notice.  I went through a phase where I was really down on America because I was seeing all the things wrong with it and didn&#039;t want to pledge.  I took a page from my favorite singer, Paul Simon, and pledged allegiance to the wall.  I&#039;d look at the wall next to the flag.

If you do want to be more obvious, along with feet shuffling, etc., there were a couple of suggestions here.  I love the one turning your back and the one about the salute, but either of those is really as blatant as sitting so you probably might as well sit down and since you already decided to respect your parents&#039; wishes (understandably!) probably not good options.  Even foot shuffling and coughing and sneezing are obvious if you&#039;re the only one doing it.  In the case of my friend, he continued to sit while we did that.

Hang in there.  Being underaged is a pain but an extremely temporary thing, roughly a quarter of your life, less as people live longer and longer.  And keep your chin up!  Hold your head high.  Even while standing (and continue not to recite, they only said you had to stand) knowing that you made your stand, said your piece and it was heard -- unlike everyone else who never said a thing in the first place.  Just doing that much, was an act against it and you have made a difference.

To all the commenters who shared stories, likewise.  Hang in there and take pride in having had the courage to do what you can.  I&#039;m among those of you who didn&#039;t even know I could refuse (even after my friend I thought it was just a religious exclusion for a religion who didn&#039;t believe in pledging to a country).  But we survived and we&#039;re sure making up for lost time now.  That counts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, sorry I didn&#8217;t see this sooner but I want to absolutely encourage you.  You did the right thing making a stand and you are doing the right thing now by respecting your parents&#8217; wishes.  You may have lost the battle but not the war.  </p>
<p>Whether FFRF&#8217;s letter will help, I don&#8217;t know.  They&#8217;re very good and have often made a difference.  (I&#8217;ve been a member for 13 years.)  In any case, you have my support and admiration.  This was very brave of you and I know you will make a difference in the future if you haven&#8217;t already.  (You may very will have, in others you&#8217;re inspiring as will as in the letter to your school district.)</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re conceding the battle by standing.  You are merely living to fight another day.  You gain nothing from the principal (illegal as it might be) standing in the way of your graduation.  With the diploma, you can further your education, whether you go into the law or some other field that interests you, and go out into this world as an adult and fight for your rights and those of others.  Others&#8217; rights are important because it makes for the society we live in and inevitably protects our own.  I&#8217;ve a feeling you already realize this.</p>
<p>I had a friend in junior high with a similar problem with our homeroom teacher who wouldn&#8217;t stand for the pledge because he was a Jehovah&#8217;s Witness.  In the end, he didn&#8217;t have to and the principal told the teacher she couldn&#8217;t make him but she gave him a hard time for a couple of weeks.  He hung in there and we kids backed him up (though if I had that to go back and do over again, I&#8217;d encourage the lot of us to sit down with him and do our own sit down strike; I didn&#8217;t know my rights back then, I only learned because of his actions that Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses didn&#8217;t have to) because we liked him and didn&#8217;t like the teacher.  We did do the pledge but there was a lot of foot shuffling, coughing, sneezing, etc. until the principal made her relent.  Hmm, any chance some of your friends might join you in that sort of thing?</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re still uncomfortable with it, you can do what I did in high school and no one will ever notice.  I went through a phase where I was really down on America because I was seeing all the things wrong with it and didn&#8217;t want to pledge.  I took a page from my favorite singer, Paul Simon, and pledged allegiance to the wall.  I&#8217;d look at the wall next to the flag.</p>
<p>If you do want to be more obvious, along with feet shuffling, etc., there were a couple of suggestions here.  I love the one turning your back and the one about the salute, but either of those is really as blatant as sitting so you probably might as well sit down and since you already decided to respect your parents&#8217; wishes (understandably!) probably not good options.  Even foot shuffling and coughing and sneezing are obvious if you&#8217;re the only one doing it.  In the case of my friend, he continued to sit while we did that.</p>
<p>Hang in there.  Being underaged is a pain but an extremely temporary thing, roughly a quarter of your life, less as people live longer and longer.  And keep your chin up!  Hold your head high.  Even while standing (and continue not to recite, they only said you had to stand) knowing that you made your stand, said your piece and it was heard &#8212; unlike everyone else who never said a thing in the first place.  Just doing that much, was an act against it and you have made a difference.</p>
<p>To all the commenters who shared stories, likewise.  Hang in there and take pride in having had the courage to do what you can.  I&#8217;m among those of you who didn&#8217;t even know I could refuse (even after my friend I thought it was just a religious exclusion for a religion who didn&#8217;t believe in pledging to a country).  But we survived and we&#8217;re sure making up for lost time now.  That counts.</p>
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		<title>By: Allison</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/17/high-schooler-gets-in-trouble-after-not-standing-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/#comment-397404</link>
		<dc:creator>Allison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18310#comment-397404</guid>
		<description>Wow, talk about flashbacks. The exact same thing happened to my best friend and I in high school. We both objected to standing and my bf even wrote an opinion piece in the school paper saying that it was because she was agnostic. A teacher had a reply published saying, yep, you guessed it, that my friend wasn&#039;t really an agnostic and didn&#039;t know what she was talking about. They were woefully unprepared for the ACLU calling them and sending them letters, something I initiated because I knew they could not make us stand or recite (which was what my friend&#039;s teacher and the principle were insisting on.) Eventually they got off our backs but boy was it exciting for a while there! And extremely frustrating of course. I thought it was funny that I was supposed to be deciding what college to go to, what to major in and basically what to do with the rest of my life but I couldn&#039;t make a decision about patriotism or religion. Hmm... I feel very patriotic about our country and the ideals it was founded on. Daniel is right, he is expressing his freedom. I hope that he inspires other students who may be &quot;in the closet&quot; to come out :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, talk about flashbacks. The exact same thing happened to my best friend and I in high school. We both objected to standing and my bf even wrote an opinion piece in the school paper saying that it was because she was agnostic. A teacher had a reply published saying, yep, you guessed it, that my friend wasn&#8217;t really an agnostic and didn&#8217;t know what she was talking about. They were woefully unprepared for the ACLU calling them and sending them letters, something I initiated because I knew they could not make us stand or recite (which was what my friend&#8217;s teacher and the principle were insisting on.) Eventually they got off our backs but boy was it exciting for a while there! And extremely frustrating of course. I thought it was funny that I was supposed to be deciding what college to go to, what to major in and basically what to do with the rest of my life but I couldn&#8217;t make a decision about patriotism or religion. Hmm&#8230; I feel very patriotic about our country and the ideals it was founded on. Daniel is right, he is expressing his freedom. I hope that he inspires other students who may be &#8220;in the closet&#8221; to come out <img src='http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Royston</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/17/high-schooler-gets-in-trouble-after-not-standing-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/#comment-397389</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Royston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18310#comment-397389</guid>
		<description>@Reality chic:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Wasilla High School’s homepage:

http://www.matsuk12.us/whs/site/default.asp

And right there on the front page is the e-mail address for Dwight Probasco, Principal

Dwight.Probasco@matsuk12.us

Hmmmm . . . .&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;strong&gt;That is not my high school&lt;/strong&gt;. I do not attend Wasilla High, nor am I even in the boundary zones for it. At this time, I choose not to post the contact information for my school and my principal, simply because this is going through the school district as it is.

The FFRF has faxed a letter to the Mat-Su Borough School District&#039;s Superintendent. There are about 4 or 5 high schools in the district, and I would rather anyways that no one contact him directly.

Again, thanks for all the wonderful support. The most influential of these comments are being printed in large type and taped to my wall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Reality chic:</p>
<blockquote><p>Wasilla High School’s homepage:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.matsuk12.us/whs/site/default.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.matsuk12.us/whs/site/default.asp</a></p>
<p>And right there on the front page is the e-mail address for Dwight Probasco, Principal</p>
<p><a href="mailto:Dwight.Probasco@matsuk12.us">Dwight.Probasco@matsuk12.us</a></p>
<p>Hmmmm . . . .</p></blockquote>
<p><strong>That is not my high school</strong>. I do not attend Wasilla High, nor am I even in the boundary zones for it. At this time, I choose not to post the contact information for my school and my principal, simply because this is going through the school district as it is.</p>
<p>The FFRF has faxed a letter to the Mat-Su Borough School District&#8217;s Superintendent. There are about 4 or 5 high schools in the district, and I would rather anyways that no one contact him directly.</p>
<p>Again, thanks for all the wonderful support. The most influential of these comments are being printed in large type and taped to my wall.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed T</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/17/high-schooler-gets-in-trouble-after-not-standing-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/#comment-397376</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:39:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18310#comment-397376</guid>
		<description>Bryan,
   It would have been less troublesome for him, certainly, to stand and say nothing. It would have been less troublesome for Rosa Parks to give up her seat on the bus as well. But neither would have been better, if better means improving the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryan,<br />
   It would have been less troublesome for him, certainly, to stand and say nothing. It would have been less troublesome for Rosa Parks to give up her seat on the bus as well. But neither would have been better, if better means improving the world.</p>
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		<title>By: gmcfly</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/17/high-schooler-gets-in-trouble-after-not-standing-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/#comment-397363</link>
		<dc:creator>gmcfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18310#comment-397363</guid>
		<description>He ought to play it the other way.  &quot;I won&#039;t stand for the pledge because it looks like worship, and it is idolatrous. I will only pledge my allegiance to Jesus Christ, not to a piece of cloth.&quot;  Use the Ten Commandments.  Fast and pray about it.  Throw around Christianese like, &quot;I felt a strong conviction from God,&quot; and that you had to &quot;step out of my comfort zone and make a radical stand.&quot;

Then the narrative changes from &quot;rebellious teen refuses to honor America&quot; into &quot;secular school tries to indoctrinate young people into worshiping idols.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He ought to play it the other way.  &#8220;I won&#8217;t stand for the pledge because it looks like worship, and it is idolatrous. I will only pledge my allegiance to Jesus Christ, not to a piece of cloth.&#8221;  Use the Ten Commandments.  Fast and pray about it.  Throw around Christianese like, &#8220;I felt a strong conviction from God,&#8221; and that you had to &#8220;step out of my comfort zone and make a radical stand.&#8221;</p>
<p>Then the narrative changes from &#8220;rebellious teen refuses to honor America&#8221; into &#8220;secular school tries to indoctrinate young people into worshiping idols.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Procrustes</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/17/high-schooler-gets-in-trouble-after-not-standing-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/#comment-397345</link>
		<dc:creator>Procrustes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18310#comment-397345</guid>
		<description>Stand, but face the opposite direction.  Is there a policy about that, I wonder?

It seems the state law confers to the students a legal right not to participate, &quot;A school district shall inform all affected persons at the school of their right not to participate in the pledge of allegiance. The exercise of the right not to participate in the pledge of allegiance may not be used to evaluate a student or employee or for any other purpose.&quot;  

I think it&#039;s fairly clear, then, that Daniel does not have to stand, and anyone who tries to make him stand or threatens to punish him in any way for his refusal to participate is in violation of that law.  Within the confines of the school, I think the parents have a significant lack of control -- for instance, they can&#039;t insist that Daniel must skip his math classes every day.  There have been some religious exceptions for certain classes, and, of course, exceptions for sex ed, but I don&#039;t think the parents actually have the legal power to force their children to stand for the (corrupt) pledge.

However, his choice to obey his mother&#039;s wish is probably good to maintain a healthy family atmosphere (and to prevent a lawsuit where she would undoubtedly endure a lot of harassment and time consumption).  I&#039;m hoping Daniel is making this choice not because he feels threatened, but because he has thought it through and decided that it&#039;s the best course of action for him.

At minimum, the principal should be fired, and the teacher should be reprimanded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stand, but face the opposite direction.  Is there a policy about that, I wonder?</p>
<p>It seems the state law confers to the students a legal right not to participate, &#8220;A school district shall inform all affected persons at the school of their right not to participate in the pledge of allegiance. The exercise of the right not to participate in the pledge of allegiance may not be used to evaluate a student or employee or for any other purpose.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s fairly clear, then, that Daniel does not have to stand, and anyone who tries to make him stand or threatens to punish him in any way for his refusal to participate is in violation of that law.  Within the confines of the school, I think the parents have a significant lack of control &#8212; for instance, they can&#8217;t insist that Daniel must skip his math classes every day.  There have been some religious exceptions for certain classes, and, of course, exceptions for sex ed, but I don&#8217;t think the parents actually have the legal power to force their children to stand for the (corrupt) pledge.</p>
<p>However, his choice to obey his mother&#8217;s wish is probably good to maintain a healthy family atmosphere (and to prevent a lawsuit where she would undoubtedly endure a lot of harassment and time consumption).  I&#8217;m hoping Daniel is making this choice not because he feels threatened, but because he has thought it through and decided that it&#8217;s the best course of action for him.</p>
<p>At minimum, the principal should be fired, and the teacher should be reprimanded.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/17/high-schooler-gets-in-trouble-after-not-standing-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/#comment-397278</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18310#comment-397278</guid>
		<description>In that situation, wouldn&#039;t it have been better to just stand and say nothing? Others may disagree.  But I think it might be better for the student to not say the pledge, but stand so that he doesn&#039;t put himself on the radar for some crazy administrator to target him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In that situation, wouldn&#8217;t it have been better to just stand and say nothing? Others may disagree.  But I think it might be better for the student to not say the pledge, but stand so that he doesn&#8217;t put himself on the radar for some crazy administrator to target him.</p>
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		<title>By: Neal O</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/17/high-schooler-gets-in-trouble-after-not-standing-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/#comment-397255</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal O</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18310#comment-397255</guid>
		<description>Daniel for principal!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel for principal!</p>
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		<title>By: Liudvikas</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/11/17/high-schooler-gets-in-trouble-after-not-standing-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/#comment-397142</link>
		<dc:creator>Liudvikas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18310#comment-397142</guid>
		<description>What does it matter whether he is a minor or not. Parents cannot restrict minors freedom of speech and even if parents strictly told that the kid must stand during the pledge it wouldn&#039;t matter anyways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What does it matter whether he is a minor or not. Parents cannot restrict minors freedom of speech and even if parents strictly told that the kid must stand during the pledge it wouldn&#8217;t matter anyways.</p>
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