Comments on: FFRF Puts Atheist Sign in Illinois Capitol Building http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/01/ffrf-puts-atheist-sign-in-illinois-capitol-building/ by Hemant Mehta Tue, 14 Feb 2012 17:48:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: mojomitchman http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/01/ffrf-puts-atheist-sign-in-illinois-capitol-building/#comment-412016 mojomitchman Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:47:18 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18952#comment-412016 It's not the fact that the sign is put up, but rather the message. The Christmas Display does not have a sign that questions the atheist's viewpoint. It's message is about what they, the Christian's, believe in. On the other hand, the atheist's sign is not solely about what they believe in, but includes what they think Christians are wrong to believe in. The atheist's sign might be better to state in a positive way, that which they believe in, just as the Christian display is meant to do. It's well known that both sides exchange words/viewpoints all year long, but the atheist's display should not challenge the other, but instead they should promote and celebrate their belief in logic and reason. Otherwise, the sign reads like sour grapes, not scholarly wisdom. It’s not the fact that the sign is put up, but rather the message. The Christmas Display does not have a sign that questions the atheist’s viewpoint. It’s message is about what they, the Christian’s, believe in. On the other hand, the atheist’s sign is not solely about what they believe in, but includes what they think Christians are wrong to believe in. The atheist’s sign might be better to state in a positive way, that which they believe in, just as the Christian display is meant to do. It’s well known that both sides exchange words/viewpoints all year long, but the atheist’s display should not challenge the other, but instead they should promote and celebrate their belief in logic and reason. Otherwise, the sign reads like sour grapes, not scholarly wisdom.

]]> By: Joffan http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/01/ffrf-puts-atheist-sign-in-illinois-capitol-building/#comment-404450 Joffan Wed, 02 Dec 2009 20:41:47 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18952#comment-404450 I tend to agree with those who feel that the sign hits the wrong tone altogether. Their message is accurate enough but the venue and the occasion would suggest that a different approach is appropriate. It is difficult to get the right tone though. Phrases like "the empty promises and threats of religion" will keep creeping in; and the semi-magical "wishes" are hard to avoid too. The objectives are to catch the eye, make people feel that enjoying themselves is OK, and that religion is an unnecessary intrusion. Perhaps: <em><strong>Enjoy the holidays, and the time with the friends, family and others you meet this December. It's your life; make the most of the time you have without worrying about imaginary threats or rewards.</strong></em> I tend to agree with those who feel that the sign hits the wrong tone altogether. Their message is accurate enough but the venue and the occasion would suggest that a different approach is appropriate.

It is difficult to get the right tone though. Phrases like “the empty promises and threats of religion” will keep creeping in; and the semi-magical “wishes” are hard to avoid too.

The objectives are to catch the eye, make people feel that enjoying themselves is OK, and that religion is an unnecessary intrusion. Perhaps:

Enjoy the holidays, and the time with the friends, family and others you meet this December. It’s your life; make the most of the time you have without worrying about imaginary threats or rewards.

]]> By: Paul http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/01/ffrf-puts-atheist-sign-in-illinois-capitol-building/#comment-404300 Paul Wed, 02 Dec 2009 14:15:03 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18952#comment-404300 In my opinion, the FFRF often seems to come across as a bunch of jerks. The people doing the "You can be good without god" bus ads and billboards, etc. are doing it right. FFRF... not so much. Also, that sign is still freaking ugly. Like it or not, bad design leaves an impression. In my opinion, the FFRF often seems to come across as a bunch of jerks. The people doing the “You can be good without god” bus ads and billboards, etc. are doing it right. FFRF… not so much.

Also, that sign is still freaking ugly. Like it or not, bad design leaves an impression.

]]> By: martin http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/01/ffrf-puts-atheist-sign-in-illinois-capitol-building/#comment-404293 martin Wed, 02 Dec 2009 14:04:08 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18952#comment-404293 It isn't that the sign is wrong and that religion doesn't harden hearts and minds as it so clearly does to many people, but that it is a sign for the winter celebrations to be with families and friends and this type of message just isn't appropriate if we are trying to show that we as atheist celebrate the solistice for this reason. Yes its appropriate to use the signs and banners to point out that there is no god and that god isn't the "reason for the season" but we shouldn't be using the signs to point fingers as it shouldn't be about getting all displays banned (as the Christians are good at doing that themselves just by many groups asking to put up displays) but to get our voice heard. And like a few posted above, it is always a much better victory when we put something up not confrontational and they are the ones who take it out of hand. When we are posting confrontational signs it takes that higher ground that we so often take and throws it out the window, while also not thinking about other groups who may also want to put displays up. Really I am quite disappointed that FFR is taking this approach and making it look like we want some type of fight and not just the equality that many of us are really in it for. It isn’t that the sign is wrong and that religion doesn’t harden hearts and minds as it so clearly does to many people, but that it is a sign for the winter celebrations to be with families and friends and this type of message just isn’t appropriate if we are trying to show that we as atheist celebrate the solistice for this reason. Yes its appropriate to use the signs and banners to point out that there is no god and that god isn’t the “reason for the season” but we shouldn’t be using the signs to point fingers as it shouldn’t be about getting all displays banned (as the Christians are good at doing that themselves just by many groups asking to put up displays) but to get our voice heard. And like a few posted above, it is always a much better victory when we put something up not confrontational and they are the ones who take it out of hand. When we are posting confrontational signs it takes that higher ground that we so often take and throws it out the window, while also not thinking about other groups who may also want to put displays up.

Really I am quite disappointed that FFR is taking this approach and making it look like we want some type of fight and not just the equality that many of us are really in it for.

]]> By: Carlie http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/01/ffrf-puts-atheist-sign-in-illinois-capitol-building/#comment-404282 Carlie Wed, 02 Dec 2009 13:38:25 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18952#comment-404282 I'm all for confrontation, but I also think it's delicious when people get so frothily rabid about signs that are entirely innocuous (like the "You are not alone" campaign). That way the atheist group that put up the sign can innocently say "what?" and smile while the protesters look unhinged. I probably would have written the sign differently - I would have reworded the middle to something like "there are no fairies, no unicorns, no leprechauns, no ghosts, no gods, no spirits. There is only the natural world." and left the end off. But I don't disagree with the sign itself, and don't see a problem with it being put there with all the other religious declarations. I’m all for confrontation, but I also think it’s delicious when people get so frothily rabid about signs that are entirely innocuous (like the “You are not alone” campaign). That way the atheist group that put up the sign can innocently say “what?” and smile while the protesters look unhinged. I probably would have written the sign differently – I would have reworded the middle to something like “there are no fairies, no unicorns, no leprechauns, no ghosts, no gods, no spirits. There is only the natural world.” and left the end off. But I don’t disagree with the sign itself, and don’t see a problem with it being put there with all the other religious declarations.

]]> By: Jen http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/01/ffrf-puts-atheist-sign-in-illinois-capitol-building/#comment-404270 Jen Wed, 02 Dec 2009 12:49:15 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18952#comment-404270 I agree with Muggle. The FFRF puts out bus signs and billboards that are non-confrontational, and that is awesome for that purpose. Here they are making people angry, and they should be- religious displays have no place on governmental property. And I have said it before, and will say it again- it is ok for atheists to have a multi-pronged approach towards society. We can have angry atheists, friendly atheists, apathetic atheists, anti-religion atheists, intellectual atheists, and even stupid atheists (see: Maher, Bill). The people of color had MLK Jr and Malcom X. The glbt movement have marriage-oriented families and Pride Parade debauchery. It is not only ok to have several approaches, it is preferable. I agree with Muggle. The FFRF puts out bus signs and billboards that are non-confrontational, and that is awesome for that purpose. Here they are making people angry, and they should be- religious displays have no place on governmental property. And I have said it before, and will say it again- it is ok for atheists to have a multi-pronged approach towards society. We can have angry atheists, friendly atheists, apathetic atheists, anti-religion atheists, intellectual atheists, and even stupid atheists (see: Maher, Bill). The people of color had MLK Jr and Malcom X. The glbt movement have marriage-oriented families and Pride Parade debauchery. It is not only ok to have several approaches, it is preferable.

]]> By: zazazoom http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/01/ffrf-puts-atheist-sign-in-illinois-capitol-building/#comment-404197 zazazoom Wed, 02 Dec 2009 08:28:53 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18952#comment-404197 I like the idea, but it is a pretty crappy poem otherwise. I like the idea, but it is a pretty crappy poem otherwise.

]]> By: AxeGrrl http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/01/ffrf-puts-atheist-sign-in-illinois-capitol-building/#comment-404191 AxeGrrl Wed, 02 Dec 2009 08:14:21 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18952#comment-404191 Tracy wrote: <blockquote>I really don’t like this message – solstice should be a time of renewal and celebration. I wish it said something positive. I much prefer the ad campaign, “Be good for goodness’ sake.” There’s no need to be rude to the Christians, they’re going to be upset regardless that we’ve got a sign up. I think this is just going to piss people off, not win us any friends.</blockquote> that's precisely how i feel :) that particular sign is the equivalent of going up to a group of people talking and saying "tsk tsk" to them and walking away. the FFRF can (and should) do <em>much</em> better than this. Tracy wrote:

I really don’t like this message – solstice should be a time of renewal and celebration. I wish it said something positive. I much prefer the ad campaign, “Be good for goodness’ sake.” There’s no need to be rude to the Christians, they’re going to be upset regardless that we’ve got a sign up. I think this is just going to piss people off, not win us any friends.

that’s precisely how i feel :)

that particular sign is the equivalent of going up to a group of people talking and saying “tsk tsk” to them and walking away.

the FFRF can (and should) do much better than this.

]]> By: muggle http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/01/ffrf-puts-atheist-sign-in-illinois-capitol-building/#comment-404168 muggle Wed, 02 Dec 2009 07:19:28 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18952#comment-404168 <blockquote>Next year, Springfield would be wise to follow in the path of Olympia, Washington and simply discontinue the practice of letting groups put up signs altogether. It just gets out of hand.</blockquote> Wouldn't that be nice? No, this sign isn't as nice as the bus signs and all -- nor should it be. It is designed to provoke confrontation about views being given a (biased) forum from the state. A nicey-nice wouldn't so much do this, would it? We don't want to leave them with something they could live with.

Next year, Springfield would be wise to follow in the path of Olympia, Washington and simply discontinue the practice of letting groups put up signs altogether. It just gets out of hand.

Wouldn’t that be nice?

No, this sign isn’t as nice as the bus signs and all — nor should it be. It is designed to provoke confrontation about views being given a (biased) forum from the state. A nicey-nice wouldn’t so much do this, would it? We don’t want to leave them with something they could live with.

]]> By: Daniel H. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/01/ffrf-puts-atheist-sign-in-illinois-capitol-building/#comment-404138 Daniel H. Wed, 02 Dec 2009 06:11:07 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=18952#comment-404138 Unfortunately for you, the conclusion that "There is only our natural world" castrates your opinion of "perverse shit". Shit happens and the universe will collapse. Try to make your criticisms internally consistent. Unfortunately for you, the conclusion that “There is only our natural world” castrates your opinion of “perverse shit”. Shit happens and the universe will collapse.

Try to make your criticisms internally consistent.

]]>