<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The Candidates for Governor of Illinois and Their Views on Evolution</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/29/the-candidates-for-governor-of-illinois-and-their-views-on-evolution/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/29/the-candidates-for-governor-of-illinois-and-their-views-on-evolution/</link>
	<description>by Hemant Mehta</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 13:03:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/29/the-candidates-for-governor-of-illinois-and-their-views-on-evolution/#comment-416408</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=19901#comment-416408</guid>
		<description>Matt,

You obviously didn&#039;t get the point I was trying to make.  I do not know what &quot;theory of evolution&quot; is supposed to mean.  Give me an unambiguous question and I will answer it.

If, as some have suggested here, the question is a euphemistic way of asking &quot;are you a religious nut or not?&quot;, then I would answer no (to this latter question).  I&#039;m probably third, maybe fourth, generation agnostic.  I been in three churches my entire life, each time for a wedding.  I couldn&#039;t be farther away from religious.  But the polar opposite of being religious is not one who blindly accepts anything with the label science attached to it - whatever it means to &quot;accept&quot; something scientific - I&#039;m not sure.

If, as Richard suggests, the question is posed to gauge the level of scientific sophistication, let me offer this as food for thought: I am a paid physicist.  I have a Bachelor&#039; and Master&#039;s degree in mathematical physics.  I have published in peer-reviewed mathematics and physics journals.  I have guest lectured advanced quantum mechanics courses for graduate students.  So let me ask you, do I have enough scientific sophistication for you?

Most interested in science are probably like I was as a high-school and even undergraduate student - just waiting to finish my degree because at the end I would know how the world really works.   After all science has the answers, right?  I focused on quantum physics because, at the end - since it is &quot;the&quot; fundamental theory of nature, I would have working knowledge of the mechanics of my natural surroundings, right?

As a near Ph.D., I am now intimately familiar with what &quot;science&quot; is - or more precisely - what it isn&#039;t.

Turns out, this old proverb couldn&#039;t sum it up any better: The more you know, the more you will know how little you know.


Going back to the original question: I have high-school level knowledge of evolution.  So, I &quot;accept&quot; the theory of evolution as much as I &quot;accept&quot; that poster in your high-school science class of the planets going around the sun in concentric circles as the &quot;theory of our solar system&quot; - which is about as far as I can throw it.

I can only assume evolutionary science is like the science I do know: it&#039;s foundations are riddled with unknown and unstated assumptions which are not questioned.  Worse than that, it&#039;s students are told not to question them, to &quot;shut up and calculate&quot; until the point were they become financial and socially vested in toeing the party line.

I&#039;ve come to have a great deal of respect for the scientific contrarians - because if you are not constantly questioning your assumptions, it might as well be a religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt,</p>
<p>You obviously didn&#8217;t get the point I was trying to make.  I do not know what &#8220;theory of evolution&#8221; is supposed to mean.  Give me an unambiguous question and I will answer it.</p>
<p>If, as some have suggested here, the question is a euphemistic way of asking &#8220;are you a religious nut or not?&#8221;, then I would answer no (to this latter question).  I&#8217;m probably third, maybe fourth, generation agnostic.  I been in three churches my entire life, each time for a wedding.  I couldn&#8217;t be farther away from religious.  But the polar opposite of being religious is not one who blindly accepts anything with the label science attached to it &#8211; whatever it means to &#8220;accept&#8221; something scientific &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure.</p>
<p>If, as Richard suggests, the question is posed to gauge the level of scientific sophistication, let me offer this as food for thought: I am a paid physicist.  I have a Bachelor&#8217; and Master&#8217;s degree in mathematical physics.  I have published in peer-reviewed mathematics and physics journals.  I have guest lectured advanced quantum mechanics courses for graduate students.  So let me ask you, do I have enough scientific sophistication for you?</p>
<p>Most interested in science are probably like I was as a high-school and even undergraduate student &#8211; just waiting to finish my degree because at the end I would know how the world really works.   After all science has the answers, right?  I focused on quantum physics because, at the end &#8211; since it is &#8220;the&#8221; fundamental theory of nature, I would have working knowledge of the mechanics of my natural surroundings, right?</p>
<p>As a near Ph.D., I am now intimately familiar with what &#8220;science&#8221; is &#8211; or more precisely &#8211; what it isn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Turns out, this old proverb couldn&#8217;t sum it up any better: The more you know, the more you will know how little you know.</p>
<p>Going back to the original question: I have high-school level knowledge of evolution.  So, I &#8220;accept&#8221; the theory of evolution as much as I &#8220;accept&#8221; that poster in your high-school science class of the planets going around the sun in concentric circles as the &#8220;theory of our solar system&#8221; &#8211; which is about as far as I can throw it.</p>
<p>I can only assume evolutionary science is like the science I do know: it&#8217;s foundations are riddled with unknown and unstated assumptions which are not questioned.  Worse than that, it&#8217;s students are told not to question them, to &#8220;shut up and calculate&#8221; until the point were they become financial and socially vested in toeing the party line.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve come to have a great deal of respect for the scientific contrarians &#8211; because if you are not constantly questioning your assumptions, it might as well be a religion.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Matt D</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/29/the-candidates-for-governor-of-illinois-and-their-views-on-evolution/#comment-416190</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 05:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=19901#comment-416190</guid>
		<description>@Chris,

one question: do YOU accept the theory of evolution. Please explain?

seriously, I&#039;m really curious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Chris,</p>
<p>one question: do YOU accept the theory of evolution. Please explain?</p>
<p>seriously, I&#8217;m really curious.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/29/the-candidates-for-governor-of-illinois-and-their-views-on-evolution/#comment-416057</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=19901#comment-416057</guid>
		<description>The question about accepting the theory of evolution is not a religious question, yet most of the candidates felt compelled to include a remark about God in their responses. 

I wonder if all that religious connotation, posturing and pandering, as well as all the nit-picking about the definition and public understanding of the word &quot;theory&quot; could be avoided if a different question was asked, one that doesn&#039;t use the &quot;E&quot; word, like:
&lt;em&gt;
How old do you think the Earth is?&lt;/em&gt; 

An answer hovering around 6,000 to 10,000 years will give us one impression of the candidate&#039;s level of scientific sophistication, while an answer more like 4.5 billion years, or even &quot;Oh, millions and millions of years, I&#039;ve heard&quot; will give us a different impression of their level of scientific saavy, and either answer might also give us an inkling about their general attitude toward the value of science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question about accepting the theory of evolution is not a religious question, yet most of the candidates felt compelled to include a remark about God in their responses. </p>
<p>I wonder if all that religious connotation, posturing and pandering, as well as all the nit-picking about the definition and public understanding of the word &#8220;theory&#8221; could be avoided if a different question was asked, one that doesn&#8217;t use the &#8220;E&#8221; word, like:<br />
<em><br />
How old do you think the Earth is?</em> </p>
<p>An answer hovering around 6,000 to 10,000 years will give us one impression of the candidate&#8217;s level of scientific sophistication, while an answer more like 4.5 billion years, or even &#8220;Oh, millions and millions of years, I&#8217;ve heard&#8221; will give us a different impression of their level of scientific saavy, and either answer might also give us an inkling about their general attitude toward the value of science.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Aj</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/29/the-candidates-for-governor-of-illinois-and-their-views-on-evolution/#comment-415909</link>
		<dc:creator>Aj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=19901#comment-415909</guid>
		<description>Chris,

That&#039;s awful cherry picking and misrepresentation, not much different from how you treated the Wikipedia article. Not all of science is like gravity. Newton was unhappy with his hypotheses on gravity, they were not so important to his theory as the descriptive power of his laws, and gravity remains unresolved to this day. Newton&#039;s laws on gravity still work, within limits, general relativity reduces to Newtonian gravity in these lower limits of gravity.  This is why on some specific phenomena you can still use Newton&#039;s laws e.g. NASA, where as an astrophysicist dealing with gravity beyond the limits of Newton&#039;s laws would not. No sensible person is going to argue with Newton&#039;s laws when it comes to things like aeronautics, which is the point people are making when they ask whether someone accepts the theory of gravity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s awful cherry picking and misrepresentation, not much different from how you treated the Wikipedia article. Not all of science is like gravity. Newton was unhappy with his hypotheses on gravity, they were not so important to his theory as the descriptive power of his laws, and gravity remains unresolved to this day. Newton&#8217;s laws on gravity still work, within limits, general relativity reduces to Newtonian gravity in these lower limits of gravity.  This is why on some specific phenomena you can still use Newton&#8217;s laws e.g. NASA, where as an astrophysicist dealing with gravity beyond the limits of Newton&#8217;s laws would not. No sensible person is going to argue with Newton&#8217;s laws when it comes to things like aeronautics, which is the point people are making when they ask whether someone accepts the theory of gravity.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: hoverFrog</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/29/the-candidates-for-governor-of-illinois-and-their-views-on-evolution/#comment-415899</link>
		<dc:creator>hoverFrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 16:59:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=19901#comment-415899</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure that some of these candidates should be allowed to stand.  Or vote for that matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that some of these candidates should be allowed to stand.  Or vote for that matter.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/29/the-candidates-for-governor-of-illinois-and-their-views-on-evolution/#comment-415826</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 15:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=19901#comment-415826</guid>
		<description>Since gravity was already alluded to, let me illustrate my point with that analogy.

First of all, asking &quot;do you accept gravity?&quot; is a question suitable only for parody so let us concentrate on &quot;do you accept the THEORY OF gravity?&quot; 

Regardless whether you answer yes or no to question, to answer it all and, more so, to even ask it displays your gross ignorance of  what science is all about.

THERE IS NO THEORY OF GRAVITY.  There are many &lt;em&gt;theories&lt;/em&gt; of gravity.  They do not build on one other and do indeed &quot;throw out many principles&quot; of their predecessors.  In fact, the assumptions of any two competing theories are contradictory.  Newton&#039;s theory posits a balance between accelerated motion and a force which is inversely proportional to the square of the distance to other objects.  Einstein&#039;s theory posits spacetime whose curvature guides the path of objects.  And, quantum field theory&#039;s foundations are purely abstract mathematical concepts such as Hilbert spaces and operator alegbras.

So what theory do you accept?  Quantum field theory is our most &quot;fundamental&quot; theory of nature so I should accept that one, right?  If I were a NASA scientist programming the shuttle with the lives of American heroes in the palm of my hand, I should &quot;accept&quot; that theory, right?  Wrong.

Turns out you can land a man on the moon using a our most primitive theory of gravity.  So does a rocket scientist accept Newton?  Gladly.  Would an astrophysicist accept Newton?  Doubtful, Einstein is where it&#039;s at.  By the time you get to quantum physicists, we only use Newton&#039;s theory as a comedic device.

By forcing people to parrot the yes response to the question is forcing them to blindly follow to new majority instead of the old.  The question does not make sense and that should be the answer to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since gravity was already alluded to, let me illustrate my point with that analogy.</p>
<p>First of all, asking &#8220;do you accept gravity?&#8221; is a question suitable only for parody so let us concentrate on &#8220;do you accept the THEORY OF gravity?&#8221; </p>
<p>Regardless whether you answer yes or no to question, to answer it all and, more so, to even ask it displays your gross ignorance of  what science is all about.</p>
<p>THERE IS NO THEORY OF GRAVITY.  There are many <em>theories</em> of gravity.  They do not build on one other and do indeed &#8220;throw out many principles&#8221; of their predecessors.  In fact, the assumptions of any two competing theories are contradictory.  Newton&#8217;s theory posits a balance between accelerated motion and a force which is inversely proportional to the square of the distance to other objects.  Einstein&#8217;s theory posits spacetime whose curvature guides the path of objects.  And, quantum field theory&#8217;s foundations are purely abstract mathematical concepts such as Hilbert spaces and operator alegbras.</p>
<p>So what theory do you accept?  Quantum field theory is our most &#8220;fundamental&#8221; theory of nature so I should accept that one, right?  If I were a NASA scientist programming the shuttle with the lives of American heroes in the palm of my hand, I should &#8220;accept&#8221; that theory, right?  Wrong.</p>
<p>Turns out you can land a man on the moon using a our most primitive theory of gravity.  So does a rocket scientist accept Newton?  Gladly.  Would an astrophysicist accept Newton?  Doubtful, Einstein is where it&#8217;s at.  By the time you get to quantum physicists, we only use Newton&#8217;s theory as a comedic device.</p>
<p>By forcing people to parrot the yes response to the question is forcing them to blindly follow to new majority instead of the old.  The question does not make sense and that should be the answer to it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/29/the-candidates-for-governor-of-illinois-and-their-views-on-evolution/#comment-415801</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=19901#comment-415801</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I’m not seeing why you criticize responses like Proft’s, Quinn’s, and Andrzejewski’s, as having objectionable elements. In fact, I would argue that these responses, arguing that their Christian beliefs are compatible with belief in evolution, are probably more helpful than Hynes’s.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think it&#039;s because it&#039;s something of a non-sequitur.  Answering &quot;Do you accept evolution?&quot; with &quot;Yes but I think God is absolutely smashing&quot; is like answering &quot;What sort of car do you drive?&quot; with &quot;A dodge caravan but I am rather partial to scrambled egg with cheese&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I’m not seeing why you criticize responses like Proft’s, Quinn’s, and Andrzejewski’s, as having objectionable elements. In fact, I would argue that these responses, arguing that their Christian beliefs are compatible with belief in evolution, are probably more helpful than Hynes’s.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think it&#8217;s because it&#8217;s something of a non-sequitur.  Answering &#8220;Do you accept evolution?&#8221; with &#8220;Yes but I think God is absolutely smashing&#8221; is like answering &#8220;What sort of car do you drive?&#8221; with &#8220;A dodge caravan but I am rather partial to scrambled egg with cheese&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Elizabeth</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/29/the-candidates-for-governor-of-illinois-and-their-views-on-evolution/#comment-415548</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 02:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=19901#comment-415548</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve heard a lot of people say &quot;I believe God drives evolution&quot; or that &quot;He created the earth 6 billion years ago and started evolution and let nature take course&quot; and honestly, I like the answers. Well a lot more than someone saying &quot;God created the earth 6000 years ago and everything to go along with it and that&#039;s final&quot;

They&#039;ve dropped the mythology of creationism and that&#039;s good enough for me. So don&#039;t beat on someone for believing that God drives evolution or caused the big bang. It&#039;s progress, and hopefully in time they figure things out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve heard a lot of people say &#8220;I believe God drives evolution&#8221; or that &#8220;He created the earth 6 billion years ago and started evolution and let nature take course&#8221; and honestly, I like the answers. Well a lot more than someone saying &#8220;God created the earth 6000 years ago and everything to go along with it and that&#8217;s final&#8221;</p>
<p>They&#8217;ve dropped the mythology of creationism and that&#8217;s good enough for me. So don&#8217;t beat on someone for believing that God drives evolution or caused the big bang. It&#8217;s progress, and hopefully in time they figure things out.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: muggle</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/29/the-candidates-for-governor-of-illinois-and-their-views-on-evolution/#comment-415536</link>
		<dc:creator>muggle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 01:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=19901#comment-415536</guid>
		<description>Actually, I didn&#039;t accept the theory of evolution for about a dozen years or so after becoming an Atheist.  I was just too uneducated to know there was so much known about it.

The internet has changed my life.

I let the ones saying yes but off the hook too though with a groan.  They know the kiss of death when put to them.

After all, no one&#039;s asking them if they accept the theory of gravity, are they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I didn&#8217;t accept the theory of evolution for about a dozen years or so after becoming an Atheist.  I was just too uneducated to know there was so much known about it.</p>
<p>The internet has changed my life.</p>
<p>I let the ones saying yes but off the hook too though with a groan.  They know the kiss of death when put to them.</p>
<p>After all, no one&#8217;s asking them if they accept the theory of gravity, are they?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/12/29/the-candidates-for-governor-of-illinois-and-their-views-on-evolution/#comment-415517</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=19901#comment-415517</guid>
		<description>Chris,
&lt;blockquote&gt;What is the point of this question anyway? To identify the scientific “luddites” for further ridicule?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes. 

Is there a problem with identifying the retrogressive candidates running for Governor of an entire state?

In a world that is every day more and more dependent on a steady supply of good, reliable science, expecting and demanding that our leaders have some basic understanding and appreciation of science and how it works is essential to our survival.

In a world that is every day more and more threatened by people who blindly follow superstitious, anti-scientific dogma, identifying political candidates with such a mindset is essential to our survival.  

Knowing how a candidate answers this question gives us an idea if he&#039;s going to lead Illinois forward into the 21st century, or back into the 19th, 18th, 17th... 

Knowing how a candidate answers this question gives us an insight into how much he is influenced by the force of reason or by the force of authority.

And that will give us an insight into how he will govern, by force of reason or by force of authority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,</p>
<blockquote><p>What is the point of this question anyway? To identify the scientific “luddites” for further ridicule?</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes. </p>
<p>Is there a problem with identifying the retrogressive candidates running for Governor of an entire state?</p>
<p>In a world that is every day more and more dependent on a steady supply of good, reliable science, expecting and demanding that our leaders have some basic understanding and appreciation of science and how it works is essential to our survival.</p>
<p>In a world that is every day more and more threatened by people who blindly follow superstitious, anti-scientific dogma, identifying political candidates with such a mindset is essential to our survival.  </p>
<p>Knowing how a candidate answers this question gives us an idea if he&#8217;s going to lead Illinois forward into the 21st century, or back into the 19th, 18th, 17th&#8230; </p>
<p>Knowing how a candidate answers this question gives us an insight into how much he is influenced by the force of reason or by the force of authority.</p>
<p>And that will give us an insight into how he will govern, by force of reason or by force of authority.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Minified using disk: basic (User agent is rejected)
Page Caching using disk: enhanced (User agent is rejected)
Database Caching 1/4 queries in 0.005 seconds using disk: basic
Object Caching 380/384 objects using disk: basic
Content Delivery Network via Amazon Web Services: S3: wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com (user agent is rejected)

Served from: www.patheos.com @ 2012-05-28 08:10:24 -->
