To make that happen, we have to reach out to them. That takes a variety of tactics and manpower. National organizations can’t spearhead things like that. It takes all of us, encouraging other atheists to be more vocal about their beliefs.

(emphasis mine)
I agree that there is not only a place, but a need, for more than one approach. But I wouldn’t want some high command arguing over whether this is the time for the carrot or the stick. Let each of us pursue the matter in our own style.

(Well, now that I think about it, maybe some of us could work a bit on improving our style! )

If we have the right to a popular vote against the rights of one minority, we should have the right to a popular vote against them all! There will be nothing to prevent you from being on the wrong side of that minority/majority gap.

Bingo.

Alexi, any response to that point?

I think the comparison to the LGBT movement is very astute. When a loudmouth atheist desecrates sacred cows, many news media outlets cover it. Many also let ‘moderate’ voices onto the programs to talk about what brought on the desecration. This is a win/win situation for a philosophy that has been traditionally closeted. The more press atheism gets, the more people are forced to talk about it,and address its complaints.

I’m not much a firebrand myself. The last person who found out about my atheism told my sister ‘He’s an atheist? But he’s so NICE!’. She then asked me about those crazy atheists who were trying to take ‘In God We Trust’ off our money. She stared with ‘You don’t support those guys who want to take the motto off our money do you?”. That was a great opportunity for me to educate her on the McCarthy era, and how they changed our currency. After we talked, she understood why so many atheists are offended by the motto. She had her eyes opened, but it required offensive atheists with litigious actions to get her asking questions that a friendly atheist could answer.

Its the one two punch. Shake em up with something shocking, then console them with a nice explanation of why the shaker is so strident.

But specifically to your charge of endorsing ‘Bigoted crap’, I fail to see how PZ is bigoted.

You had written, “If PZ Myers wants to call them [theists] all idiots, great.” Theists are not all idiots, and saying that they are is, well, bigoted. In short, you endorsed the idea of Myers saying bigoted things.

Now to be fair, Myers has said that not all theists are stupid, etc., (which unfortunately hasn’t stopped him from playing the game of how to call theists stupid without calling them stupid). Also, I’d say that when Myers said of Ed Brayton of Dispatches From the Culture Wars that he “loathes atheists, and would like to see them silenced,” I’d say that was without merit. Sometimes Myers just goes batshit, and that’s not good for anybody.

‘I’d have gays prove they’re born that way.’

Homosexuality has been shown to have a clear genetic component. It’s common in many animal species, not just our own. Black Swans are often brought up as examples. Nearly 30% of all male Black Swans are homosexual, they form long term relationships with other male swans, and even steal eggs from hetero couples and raise families. The male swans raised by homosexual couples have exactly the same chance of being homosexual as those raised by heterosexual couples.

I was referencing a specific event by mentioning Mooney and Myers. Mooney is an accommodationist, and Myers is the fire breathing dragon. Mooney wrote a book called Unscientific America, where he advocated for being nice with theists in order to advance science education. Basically the honey and medicine technique. Myers harshly criticized Mooneys book as accommodationist and said it won’t work.

My argument during that event was that it was a waste of time for Mooney to write a book trying to convince those who choose the abrasive method, and a further waste for Myers to spend so much time and effort criticizing it.

Mooney should be working as the nice guy. Sucker them in with a nice smile and calming platitudes. If they don’t learn their science, then we have Myers to slap some sense into them.

But specifically to your charge of endorsing ‘Bigoted crap’, I fail to see how PZ is bigoted. Perhaps the word might fit, but I always associated that word with ignorance. PZ’s criticisms are scathing, blunt, often rude, but never ignorant or without merit.

What happened to free thought & free enquiry?

Um, are you under the impression that having people criticize what you say is a violation of free thought and enquiry? You’re free to say and think what you like. Others are free to point out that you don’t make any sense. And you don’t.

You’re spewing nonsense, Alexi. Homosexuality is no more based on faith than heterosexuality is. Is your sexuality based on faith? And what does that even mean anyway?

Clearly you’re struggling to justify your anti-gay feelings, which is exceedingly hard to do for someone who is (presumably) not religious, since you can’t thump a Bible passage like so many anti-gay Christians can do. And you’re clearly turning a deaf ear to some of the commenters here who have shared a bit about their struggles dealing with growing up gay in a world that is still bigoted against LGBT people.

Reading your comments is an exercise in watching heterosexual privilege at work. You have a very easy time writing off the struggles of LGBT people because you do not have to struggle in that way. It’s depressing to see.

No LGBT person should have to justify their right to have rights to you, simply because you do not feel like even trying to understand or use a bit of empathy. To me, one of the most frightening things to ever encounter in this world is a person with a lack of empathy, whether that person is a Christian, Muslim, Jew, or atheist.

Tell that to the slaves in America who were freed by the Civil War. (Yes, the Emancipation Proclamation technically freed the slaves. It wouldn’t have mattered much if the states of the south had been able to form a separate nation in which that law didn’t apply.) Tell that to the people who were rescued from Auschwitz. Tell that to the Muslims of Kosovo. Tell that to the Cambodians who survived the reign of the Khmer Rouge.

Violence, properly applied, has liberated more people than legislation.