Since we believe that simply sharing the message and helping people is all we’re called to do, we’re not going to try to trick, trap, or convince anyone per se. Because we believe it to be a miracle, it’s a bit hard to explain, but in response to your original comment, we’re not the subversives that you think we are. Evangelism is saying, “God loves you, like I’m trying to love you by my actions.” You can do what you like with that information, including throw it out.

Okay. I’m willing to believe you. However, without knowing what specific forms of evangelism your church participates in, it would be hard to say whether or not I would agree that this is the case. I think, though, that if your church believes just in helping people, then you wouldn’t fall under the banner of the kind of evangelical churches I was talking about in my original comment.

I do try to be upfront as possible that yes, I do believe that atheism is spiritually self-destructive, and I pray to God that He will convert my atheist friends, but that shouldn’t bother you if you don’t believe in the spirit, God, or prayer.

It bothers me only in the sense that I find it hideously disrespectful. However, I can’t control what other people do or what other people think, and my self-worth is not bound up in other people’s opinions of me. Plus, as I said before, it’s not my job to police other people’s minds. So if you want to pray that I’ll see the light and stop living a “spiritually destructive” (!) life, that’s up to you. But I sure can’t respect people who think that way. I would feel very uncomfortable around them. How can I possibly have positive feelings about your religion if that’s what it teaches about people like me?

I do try to be upfront as possible that yes, I do believe that atheism is spiritually self-destructive, and I pray to God that He will convert my atheist friends, but that shouldn’t bother you if you don’t believe in the spirit, God, or prayer.

Anna, I know a lot of Christians are like that. I’m not them, so I won’t apologize for them, but last I checked, the word, “Bazinga!” isn’t in the Bible. Jesus’ opponents were always trying to corner Him and get Him to say the wrong thing, but He never did that the other way. I like the way Jesus did it: He loved people, went out of His way to help them, answered their questions, and gave words of comfort.

When speaking with atheists, bringing up what Jesus said or what Jesus did or what other people did or said about Jesus is generally going to turn us right off. I didn’t mention Jesus once in my original comment. I was talking about churches and the possibility that many (not all) of them have hidden motives and agendas. I don’t have the slightest interest in what Jesus said about converting people or helping people or loving people. You can certainly talk about what your church believes, but why you believe it does not tend to matter the least bit to those of us who don’t believe in any gods and don’t believe your holy book has any kind of legitimacy or veracity.

On a related note:

If you were on your deathbed and said, “I’m still an atheist and always will be. Can I have a drink of water?” I’d get it for you. Because God created you & Jesus paid for your sins, I’m going to love you, because He first loved both of us.

While it’s nice that you believe in helping atheists, even if we’re on our deathbed and not interested in converting, your rationale for doing so is rather suspect. I would rather you helped us because you wanted to be a decent human being, not because your god told you to love us. And, honestly, going on and on about how you love us does not seem the least bit genuine.

By having an atheist tell us about atheists, we get rid of stereotypes and learn how better to serve (not trap) our neighbor.

Getting rid of stereotypes? Awesome. Getting rid of stereotypes so you can better “serve” (read: evangelize) us? Not so awesome. As I said earlier, just be honest about your real goals and intentions. It’s this tendency to hide them that makes people less likely to trust you.

Are we going to try to change you? No.

This statement seems dishonest to me. “We believe God changes hearts” is a cop-out. You go on to say that you believe in missionary work, so obviously you do believe in evangelism. You believe in doing everything you can to persuade, convince, or change us, and to imply otherwise really makes me (and most other atheists, I’m sure) distrust you. Trying to deliberately obscure your intentions does not make me inclined to think of your belief system favorably.

A tip for would-be evangelists when dealing with atheists: If you believe in missionary work and evangelism, do not try to hide what you believe and what you want to do. Be honest about your real motives and ultimate goals. Don’t make it sound like you’re just “leaving it up to God” to change people’s hearts when it’s obvious that you do engage in various forms of evangelism. You’re not just talking about “loving” people or “serving” people. You’re talking about changing people. Please be honest about that.

Would I like all people to become Christians? Yes, just as you’d probably be happier if all people were atheists.

Happier? I don’t think my personal happiness has anything to do with other people’s private belief systems. As long as they are not using their beliefs to impinge on my rights or my personal freedom, I could not care less what they believe. I suppose I might feel more comfortable and less frustrated in an all-atheist world, but that scenario is extremely unlikely and I don’t think it’s productive to waste time thinking about it. I certainly have no desire to forcibly change people and deconvert them against their will, or to meddle in the way they bring up their children, or to tell them to live their lives in accordance with my beliefs. Simply put, it’s not my business to police the content of other people’s minds.

And I’m in favor of missionary work. I should clarify. I believe that God uses the message of His love as shown through Jesus Christ to bring people to faith. While the intellect is involved, that transformation happens as God miraculously turns a person who is dead set against Him to believe in Him. We teach that God works through means, sometimes miraculous,like bringing people to faith through the good news of His love, and sometimes through non-miraculous means, like saving people’s lives through medical professionals, unlocking the secrets of the universe through teachers, etc.

So it’s through hearing about His love, not through rhetoric, that He creates saving faith. Christians are called to share that message through word and deed, but not called on to expertly debate (or use thumb screws).

Have you really never changed your opinion about a religious topic after hearing an interesting and well-thought argument?

And, are you against missionary work? By that, I mean not just charity work done by religious organizations, but charity work combined with promotion of the religion itself.

Are we going to try to change you? No. At least in our church, we believe God changes hearts. It’s just our job to love people and tell them why we love them. If they don’t become Christians, we still love them. If you were on your deathbed and said, “I’m still an atheist and always will be. Can I have a drink of water?” I’d get it for you. Because God created you & Jesus paid for your sins, I’m going to love you, because He first loved both of us.

Would I like all people to become Christians? Yes, just as you’d probably be happier if all people were atheists. For Christians who believe in heaven and hell, the stakes are higher if that doesn’t happen, but when you believe that God changes hearts, not Christians, you don’t go around trying to convince people of anything. You just want them to be loved and cared for and leave the rest up to God.

By having an atheist tell us about atheists, we get rid of stereotypes and learn how better to serve (not trap) our neighbor.

For example, the Jubilee conference and other panels you’ve mentioned. I might be wrong, but it seems like the vast majority of people inviting you to speak are only interested in atheists as a means to an end. They want to understand us in order to increase their chances of changing us. They don’t accept us or respect us the way we are. Somehow I think that any information we give them is going to be taken and used to form new techniques in order to “reach” us and “save” us.

So while your aim may be to increase awareness and at least get them to stop misrepresenting and telling lies about atheists and atheism (a worthy goal), there’s no two-way respect because they don’t accept us the way we are. I suppose one could argue that we don’t accept them either, except that I don’t think it’s true of all or even most atheists. I know that I personally am not on a mission to deconvert anyone, even if I think it would be in their best interests. I can accept them without wanting to change them.

I don’t know. When I read a previous comment by someone involved in the Jubilee conference, they mentioned that they had “gotten you to admit that you had faith in science.” I can’t find the actual quote now, but their wording spoke volumes. It was like they had caught you in a lie (“everyone has faith in something!”) and that despite all your efforts at education, they insist on conflating atheism and science and pretending that atheists worship science or see it as some kind of god, never mind the fact that there are probably millions of atheists who have no particular interest in science whatsoever.

I’ve actually been doing a class, discussing Ingersoll’s rebuttal of the Bible (passed on to me by an atheist friend), and while I’ve invited local atheists to come, we’ve had no takers. Sadly, that document is over 100 years old, so while I frequently hear the same arguments today, which is why we’re looking at it, the perspective and attitude is very different from that of most of my atheist friends. In fact, we audio record the class and make it available as a podcast. Anyone who has comments about any of the classes we’ve had so far is welcome to leave those comments on our website. As long as people are civil, we won’t delete opposing viewpoints and welcome the discussion. In fact, anyone in the Cleveland area is welcome to attend the roundtable-style class and offer their perspective.

OK, I’m a bit hesitant to submit this, since, being new to this site and not “one of the guys,” I don’t want to spam the blog with my comments and links, so Hemant or whoever’s moderating this, if you’d like to contact me without passing this through or edit it first, I won’t be offended and would still love to talk with you about possibilities.