Nope, doesn’t help ‘our cause’ but then not many religious people have ever actually read their own credo.

I consider myself pretty much atheist–the Judeochristian god, in fact, is the version that seems most especially unlikely to me. But I volunteer all the time even without that flaming baseball bat labeled “HELL” held over my head. At the Catholic soup kitchen downtown, even, and with my church (yeah, you read that correctly), among other places and times. My Christian minister of my Unitarian Universalist church, in fact, was the first one to alert me to this article, by sending out an email to see if anyone wanted to help him write a reply to this same horrible farce of an article in the Gazette. (I did, but I got to it too late, and he was probably more articulate and concise than I would have been in any case…lol. I can see if he’s okay with my posting his reply here, in fact, if anyone so desires.) This town has more than its share of fundamentalist loonies, admittedly, but I’ve found myself surprised by the number of prominent places I see the local Gay and Lesbian Fund/Pride Center popping up. Maybe it’s just the godless sodomites I hang out with (:P) but I do think we have a pretty good-sized, though less noisy and obnoxious, anti-fundamentalist underground of all sorts of disparate groups (and isn’t Internet Infidels actually based here as well??). It’s really more about who, and what organization, is posting something than the simple fact that they’re from Colorado Springs–something I suspect most of you probably already knew, but I wanted to be sure that was clear.

I think the Unitarian Universalist bunch is likely on the right track and best compromise when it comes to educating kids without brainwashing them (though I am, admittedly, biased). One of the major reasons I joined the church, in fact, was because I absolutely loved their religious education program for youth–namely, learn about and respect all religions (and atheism, too) while mandating none. I like this because I also think there’s value to be had in examining religions even if one doesn’t buy into all the weird, illogical, or otherwise questionable elements so often included as part of the package–and such a program helps to emphasize that really, we all usually have pretty similar goals in the end: be a better, happier person and make the world a better, happier place. So long as your actions align with that, I personally have trouble having a serious beef with your [essentially irrelevant] beliefs, though I still love to compare them to mine and debate about them for the fun of it.

UU, humanism, and many of the major philosophical schools, such as utilitarianism, provide ample basis for non-religious morality, if for some reason your own conscience is not enough. Heck, now that I think about it, even most of the Scout pledges I took as a kid were mainly secular words pledging good behavior–there were a few insertions of “god” in there, but I distinctly recall that I simply mouthed the theological bits and took the rest to heart.

Porn, on the other hand, is a separate topic–and probably a stupid PR move, but that has nothing to do with whether it’s right or excusable in some/all/any of its forms. And also quite different from religion and morality, or lack thereof, overall.

And while I can see what point I think the article’s trying to get at with atheists “needing to replace”, I think he is, like many Christians, confusing his own brand of religion with both love and morality. I have both in ample quantities, and give ampler consideration to them than very nearly everyone else I’ve ever come across, and yet I’ve never been Christian. I feel no dearth of great love despite my apparent religious “lack,” instead finding that the physical world around me here and now holds amazing, inspiring, wonderful things that inspire far greater depths of love and awe in me than any of my years of Bible study or Vacation Bible School have ever managed.

Thanks for sending this link. That is wonderful to see, and thank you for your organization’s hard work and devotion to the poor. I know a majority of atheists spend their time doing good in the world, rather than picking fights with people of other beliefs. Unfortunately, so many of the high-profile athiest organizations are in the business of confrontation. I’m sure they represent a minority of atheists, just as the high-profile Christian hypocrite televangelists represent a minoirty of Christians, the murderous terrorists represent a tiny minority of Muslims. I will look for an opportunity in coming weeks to point out some of the good works done in the name of atheism. Thanks again for sending this along.

Wayne Laugesen

editorial page editor

The Gazette

From: M S [mailto:md457@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:21 AM
To: Wayne Laugesen
Cc: Joy Harper; Joel Millman; larry.ryckman@gazette.com; Jeff Thomas
Subject: Texas atheists

There was no email for Wayne on the website so I am sure one of you can make sure he gets this.
Here is another group of atheists in Texas just north of San Antonio who have been doing something for 6 months, every month.
Mark Johnson
co-founder AHH
http://www.youtube.com/user/aajoeyjo#p/u/1/o2ysHgRANAM

Hemant didn’t even disagree with the premise behind the Smut for Smut campaign. What he disagreed with was with its efficaciousness. He felt that the campaign does nothing to endear us to those like yourself.

So his post was more targeted at us, his fellow atheists, rather than at the religious like yourself.

I have never said that any belief is beyond criticism.

…

I have never said that any book has “authority”…

…

To the best of my knowledge I have never defended, promoted, protected or enabled a fundamentalist beyond their civil rights.

Seems like your the lunatic fringe of religious people, because that’s not how “moderate” religious people usually behave, and a large proportion of atheists.

Here’s some unsolicited advice for the college atheists: Grown-ups don’t think it’s cute, and you don’t help the atheist cause by aligning it with porn. We’re just saying…

So his argument is “grow up”? What. A. Moron. I hope something unpredictable and horrific happens to him or his family for no reason at all. (Statistically, my hope will come true at some point without any outside intervention.)

I found this sentence meaningless too. Frankly, I would also fight for the rights of a straight man to parade down the street in pumps, make-up, and a nun outfit with a bra affixed to the outside. What does sexual preference have to do with it?

“However, Playboy is just as guilty as any of implicitly promoting unrealistic body images as an ideal.”

Chicken or the egg. Do men prefer women with a body like those in Playboy because Playboy is promoting them? Or does Playboy publish images of ‘perfect’ women because that’s what their client base wants to see? Personally, I suspect it’s the latter. Playboy is a business enterprise and their mission is to make money.

TV dramas and movies are as guilty, actually pretty much any form of media is just as guilty.

True enough. This isn’t specifically a problem with porn, it’s a problem with society.

Not sure I agree that displaying “unrealistic” body images is wrong, [...]

It’s not the mere display that’s the problem, of course. It’s the message that a lot of people get that you’re not good enough.

And yes, I’m aware that many religions are guilty of this. I hope I’m not.

You’ve never been able or willing to understand the argument, so you’re not in a position to criticize it. Last time I checked, atheists weren’t going around saying you should believe things without evidence, that certain books have authority, and that you shouldn’t criticize certain beliefs. Last time I checked, I never did anything to promote, protect, or enable Bill Maher’s belief in alternative medicine bullshit.

Last time I checked, I have never said that any book has “authority”, unless it was Hoyle’s. I have never said that any belief is beyond criticism. I’m far from perfect, but had I ever done any of these things, I’m pretty sure that I’d remember.

To the best of my knowledge I have never defended, promoted, protected or enabled a fundamentalist beyond their civil rights. Admittedly, I may have said that some beliefs are reasonable even if there is no hard evidence to back them up, but I’m pretty sure I didn’t give religious beliefs a special pass in that regard.

For the record, while you’ve said many things that I disagree with, I don’t recall I’ve ever seen you promote Zeitgeist, or claimed that fundamentalist religion is more authentic/consistent/whatever than more moderate forms of religion.

I do not want you to be tarred with a broad brush any more than I want to be. We are complex individuals. But it’s an inevitable consequence of sticking your head above the parapet that people will do it to you.

Can we at least agree that Laugesen’s op-ed is dumb, and move on?

We’re not a collective. Anybody who expects us to think, speak or behave as a monolith doesn’t know much about us.

That being said, I don’t think we’re on the decline at all. In fact, I think we’re just getting started…