Ask Richard: Atheist Isolating to Avoid Superstitious People

As a fellow gaytheist, I feel I ought to chime in and say that it is extremely tough to be an out atheist in the gay movement. I wrote a post about my experience with this at Creating Change, the National Conference on LGBT Equality:

http://zackfordblogs.com/2010/02/the-invisibility-of-atheists-at-creating-change-and-within-the-queer-equality-movement/

I had no idea that the gay community had a tendency towards religiosity. I thought that they were as rational\irrational as any other group but that the negative treatment of gay people under religious dogma would turn them away from churches. Therefore I thought that gay people were actually less religious than straight people. Why would you want to be a member of a group that condemns you?

See, you’ve succeeded in dispelling ignorance of one issue in at least one person. That is a good start.

I have never understood why so many of us homeaux cleave to their churches. To me, they’re like Log Cabiners – don’t they understand that the party/church doesn’t like them? Doesn’t want them? Downright hates them?

Eh, maybe it’s psychological masochism.

I don’t have any good advice, but I must say I was surprised to read about the prejudice against atheists in the LGBT community – i had always assumed (yeah, yeah I know!) that they were pretty tolerant.

I think where you live may have a lot to do with it. I live in Australia and I have quite religious friends who have never discussed religion with me in the 6 years I have known them (so I have never had to tell them I’m an atheist). On the other hand I met an American woman at the school the other day. In the course of our 15 min chat she mentioned her church and God 3 or 4 times (in a ‘God’s plan for me’ sort of way, not a ‘ God, i wish it would stop raining’ sort of way I’d use). I know a sample of one is hardly statistically significant but it made me realise how difficult it would be to live with that casual level of religiosity every day without going nuts. Good luck – i hope you find at least one good atheist friend you can talk to without feeling like your head will explode from the stupidity you have to listen to all the time.

I know what you mean about the LGBT community. I have a cousin who is gay (I am not) and I have no problem with that or his permanent partner or any other aspect of his life, except he is very religious and has been all of his life.

I have talked with him about it but he is one of the religious types that refuses to discuss it. I have sent him rationalist literature and asked him how he reconciles his beliefs with his life. His normal response is, “I believe what I know is right and I don’t need to hear any other argument.” In other words, STFU. He never hesitates to give me the same tired olkd theist arguments such as Pascal’s Wager (what if you’re wrong?) and the bible says it, so it must be true. He denies being brainwashed into religion as a child even though he was taken to Sunday school and church every week and sent o vacation bible school every summer, he doesn’t see that as brainwashing.

SO basically, we just don;t discuss anything about religion any more. He knows that, if he brings up anything about the subject, I’ll jump in with statements he cannot counter. Maybe that’s the best solution for us. It might work for you, too?

Acceptance of an “out-group” is probably a two-phase process.

Phase one is for the out-group to emulate a sufficient number of characteristics of the “in-group” (for many this is religiosity) for acceptance. Phase 2 is for the out-group to be fully accepted just as they are. The other gays are concentrating (maybe even unconsciously) on phase 1 and may resent your lack of religiosity. You are wanting to progress already to phase 2.

You can continue to use that ability to further the LGBT cause, but also, perhaps more subtly, you can further the cause of reason as well. Discreetly plant seeds of rational thinking in every one of your speeches. Keep them small and understated so they are accepted easily.

I’m a big fan of this as a meta-strategy, but I don’t think it’s quite as simple as you suggest. If you do it this way, you eventually get to the point where people start thinking “oh, there’s the drop-in {whatever your external goal is} paragraph; I’ll just doze off for a minute until he starts talking about something I care about.” That’s okay now and then, but it can’t be your dominant strategy. Rather, you should think about what it is that the movements have in common and why it is that you are a member of both movements and then focus your “drop-in” (or better yet, the speech itself) on what that underlying value is: that way, you stay on topic so that people don’t drift and you get across the message that “believing X is a good reason to believe the things you already believe” and let them fill in “if I believe X, then it’s reasonable for me to believe Y also” for themselves. (This is why the occasional blatant drop-in is strategically useful also.) It’s a bit tricky in this case since being LGBTQ is more a biological fact than a belief, but there is probably is a reason why you’re interested in LGBT activism. I would guess that it has to do with promoting tolerance, equality, and solidarity (both in-group and out-group), which is also a fantastic reason to be involved with organized atheism.

“Why would you want to be a member of a group that condemns you?”

Ask some black Mormons.

I’d post my serious thoughts on religious gays, but it’d probably end up being a long and offensive rant. The nicest way I can put it is that I don’t think joining the group that has led literally every single anti-gay campaign in history is the way to win our equality.

An old high school acquaintance who is now a conservative minister has been a bit hostile and accused me of not wanting to “defend” my beliefs to him as though I were required to give an accounting of myself!

And if you did give an accounting of yourself, he’s accuse you of trying to convert him. Trust me — that’s is a no-win situation, and nothing you could possibly do would be right.

As a fellow LGBT atheist (the B in that alphabet soup), I feel your pain. I have also, as I talked about in the piece Miller linked to above (thanks!), felt more alienated from the LGBT community once I started coming out as an atheist. And I’ve found myself becoming more deeply involved with the atheist movement, and stepping back from the LGBT movement somewhat… for this exact reason. But if you’re doing political work, then Ron’s suggestion above — “just don’t be friends with them” — isn’t really an option. Not if you don’t want to abandon your commitment to the work you’re doing.

What I’d like to encourage you to do is twofold:

1) Get more involved in the atheist community and the atheist movement — which is overwhelmingly LGBT-positive. I have never in my life felt as supported as a queer by straight people as I have in the atheist movement. You’ll need this support.

2) I would love to encourage you to take this on in the LGBT movement.

We are not the only ones. Every time I come out as an atheist in the LGBT community, I get people coming out to me privately about their own non-belief. We need to do more visibility and more education about godlessness in our community, so our leaders don’t keep forgetting that the beautiful ecumenical rainbow of spiritual diversity also includes those of us who aren’t spiritual at all… and don’t keep treating us like unwanted stepchildren.

Frame it as an inclusivity issue. The LGBT movement is very sensitive about inclusivity, and it’s a great way to play their guilt like a harp educate them.

And yes, I do feel more connected with the atheist community now than I do with the queer community. Which is weird, since the queer community has felt like my home and family for decades. But think of it this way: Did you ever wish that you could have been part of the LGBT movement right after Stonewall, when it was first becoming visible and vocal and organized? That’s where the atheist movement is now. This is the first time I’ve ever been part of a movement right when it was getting off the ground, instead of coming decades late to the party. And it is so exciting and satisfying, I can barely contain myself.

I’d say to get a blog. I started one after I graduated college and couldn’t find any atheist friends, and it’s helped me deal with the crap I often see/hear/experience from the religious folks.

The toughest part of being human is having to share the planet with “others.” Is that an apt description of the way things look to you? This is not uncommon, in fact if you recognize it as part of who you are, you have come a long way toward opening up to something more than that. We share the planet as humans – all of us, green, red, purple, blue and multi – all equal – all arm in arm in the sense that we have basically the same needs and the same wants as simple as wanting to be content, fulfilled and free. The good news is we are already those things. Finding this truth under all the garbage we’ve collected growing up is the tough part. Anger is a very healthy emotion if you can address it directly. Knowing you are angry is only step one. The cause for your anger lies within you. That was the biggest surprise for me when I started taking this apart and putting it back together. Placing blame and assigning responsibility for your own life in the other person’s court devalues your own self. You are responsible for your actions – all of them. No one can make you do anything. They can coerce. bribe, physically attack, mentally abuse and try to brainwash, but the one truth I have found is that it is my choice to let that information or effort gain a foothold in my consciousness. It is not my intention to downplay the difficulty in any of these encounters, simply to point out that blaming someone else for your anger or hurt or whatever gives them power over you, which is unhelpful for you. Stepping back from confrontation, pausing to breathe in and out until you can focus on the source of your anger or whatever emotion it may be and find the kernel of truth that lies at the heart of it, stripped of judgment, prejudice and past history, gives you back the reins of control. Finding out what pushes our buttons and why is worth experiencing the discomfort fully so we can desensitize ourselves to them. It is like seeing a coiled rope in the dark and believing it to be a boa constrictor. Once we find out what it really is, we are much more able to respond appropriately. Life is tough for everyone, even the bullies. Be well.