Ground Zero Church

People are getting all hot and bothered by the (close to) Ground Zero Mosque (and community center)… but why aren’t we paying more attention to this?

That is one freaky website, too…

(via Reddit — Thanks to Joe for the link)

  • http://twitter.com/artiofab artiofab

    At least they recognize Obama as God’s Enemy… Uh. …hmm.

  • Random Kitty

    I think the freakiest thing about that site is that they still have videos in Real Player.

  • Jon Peterson

    Oh. My.

    Poorly-compressed .jpg’s in a table with IMAGE MAPS? What caveman designed that site?! For goodness sake, get Smultron or Notepad++, and subscribe to Smashing Magazine already! Ow, it hurts my eyes.

  • http://ottodestruct.com Otto

    The people who are getting all hot and bothered over the mosque are the same people who created this. Simple.

  • Ben

    Because I like my masochism in less obvious ways?

  • Karl

    I’m sure the invite does not include ALL 9-11 families and 1st Responders: It undoubtedly excludes Jews or Muslims, being a “Christian” center and all. Once again, exclusiveness rules.

  • http://deviatehulk.blogspot.com Keith

    Did anyone see the “Gold for Souls” link on that site? That gave me the heebie-jeebies something fierce. I just got through with a triple play of “Evil Dead,” “Evil Dead 2″ and “Army of Darkness,” and all I can think when I see that is “I’ll swallow your soul!” I’m not too keen on the soul concept, true, but on the off chance that I have one, dammit, it’s mine, you can’t have it!

  • http://lagunatic.wordpress.com/ Lagunatic

    I personally need more Nutella.
    Think they’ll pray for me?

  • Jim

    Sheesh, cashing in on 9/11 much?

  • Joost

    That “Gold for Souls” thing is totally the reverse of what the title implies. I’m disappointed.

  • Amy G

    oh oh oh. I love this “devotional” from the website:

    http://www.liveprayer.com/ddarchive3.cfm?id=2431
    “The False Religion of Islam and the Courage to Tell One Billion People They are Going to Hell”

    Classic.

  • Hazor

    My sentiments were similar to Jon Peterson’s. The person who did that has committed sins against the internet gods.

    Also, “God’s Enemy.” Nice.

  • http://bestlittlestudio.com James

    The gold for souls thing is hilarious.
    You send them gold, they give you a receipt for it for ax purposes.
    Then they take a crap ton of gold and sell it to those cash for gold people and laugh all the way to the bank.

    I thought it was gonna be gold for my soul. Or at least cash. I could sell it a few dozen times at least. Whats the going rate for a 30 year old never been used soul?

    It has to be enough to cover rent for a couple of months at least.

  • Patti

    Tax fraud! Look at the “Gold for Souls” link on their website. You send them your jewelery, and they’ll send you a tax receipt for 10 times the market resale value. Holy gods, that is shocking behavior from these good Christian Americans!

  • Gliewmeden

    Freaky website is correct! I think not too many people go there because they would have some copyright lawyers on their tails. The pic for the “Abortion” icon is the cover of a book I own.

    Silly buggers.

  • http://davidellisdickerson.com wordboydave

    http://www.liveprayer.com/ddarchive3.cfm?id=2431
    “…The Courage to Tell One Billion People They are Going to Hell”

    They call it courage. Why not call it class?

  • Erp

    I assume the non-Christian (Jews, Muslim, humanists, etc) first responders and 9-11 families would feel less than welcome (unless they convert to Christianity).

    Personally I’m still trying to puzzle out why the NY Times article on their recent poll states “Opposition is more intense in the boroughs outside Manhattan — for example, 54 percent in the Bronx — but it is even strong in Manhattan, considered a bastion of religious tolerance, where 41 percent are against it” but does not state that most of the people in Manhattan (51%) support the mosque/Islamic center.

    Also Bill Keller, the person behind the posters, has a somewhat spotty history

  • Bawruss

    why aren’t we paying more attention to this?

    Because the 9/11 hijackers didn’t scream “Jesus is great” before impact. Religions are problematic for sure. But there are differences, and by now they should be obvious.

  • Jonboy

    Ummm…I’ll take a stab at your question. Maybe people aren’t bothered by it because Christians didn’t fly any planes into the twin towers on 9/11? Call me nutty…

  • http://republic-of-gilead.blogspot.com Ahab

    The media is paying little attention to this because fundamentalist Christianity is generally more accepted in this country than Islam. Unfortunately, this means that a lot of fundamentalist Christian wackiness goes unnoticed.

  • Sarah

    I am amused about the great deal of support the site has for hurting people.

    However, it is messed up that there isn’t coverage of this. Just the name is insulting and should be questioned.

    Such things as this that happen help give me more backbone for speaking out.

  • http://vancouvermoose.livejournal.com/ VancouverMoose

    “…The Courage to Tell One Billion People They are Going to Hell”

    I sometimes tell people to go to Hell. Does that make me courageous?

  • http://stochasticmutters.blogspot.com/ Aaron

    why aren’t we paying more attention to this?

    Because when religious nuts act crazy, it isn’t news.

  • http://miketheinfidel.blogspot.com/ MikeTheInfidel

    Re:

    why aren’t we paying more attention to this?

    Bawruss said:

    Because the 9/11 hijackers didn’t scream “Jesus is great” before impact. Religions are problematic for sure. But there are differences, and by now they should be obvious.

    Jonboy said:

    Ummm…I’ll take a stab at your question. Maybe people aren’t bothered by it because Christians didn’t fly any planes into the twin towers on 9/11? Call me nutty…

    YOU ARE NUTTY.

    What the hell is with people painting every single Muslim with the terrorist brush? Does the concept of gray exist for you people, or is it all black and white? These aren’t the same people that attacked us. Learn to tell the difference.

  • http://miketheinfidel.blogspot.com/ MikeTheInfidel

    To expand on the “you are nutty:” Are you forgetting that Christians have bombed abortion clinics? That it was a Christian who committed the Oklahoma City bombing?

    Not the same KIND of Christian as these, but by your ‘guilt by association’ rules, they’re culpable, and you should be up in arms about this.

  • Jim

    “Gold for Souls” ??? Now they are trying to profit of their members? What is this? Glenn Beck’s new website?

  • http://deviatehulk.blogspot.com Keith

    Does the concept of gray exist for you people,

    No bearing on anything whatsoever, but I read that as “Does the concept of gravy exist for you people.” And now, well, I want some mashed potatoes. That is all.

  • ATL-Apostate

    Religion in general, and Islam in particular is the enemy.

    If I got to choose between a church or a mosque being erected near ground zero (and I couldn’t choose “none of the above”), I would choose a Christian church. And so would most of you if you really were honest with yourselves.

    Can someone please show me what a moderate muslim looks or sounds like? I don’t think they exist.

    Even though the liveprayer group are a bunch of kooky X-tians, they aren’t about to fly a plane into a building or commit mass murder any time soon.

    Please, Hemant. You’re taking the “friendly” thing too far. Islam is wicked. It is the worst of the worst, as far as religions go.

  • muggle

    ATL, don’t make assumptions about me the way you are Muslims. I wouldn’t choose. I’d say I don’t give a flying fuck what’s built there. If forced to (yeah, right, good luck with that) I’d look at both proposals and both organizations and see what the fuck they stood for.

    Given that Park 51′s all about reaching out to others and the church linked above is about condemning others, if I did have to play tyrant for the day, I’d pick the mosque.

    To answer Hemant’s question, because this is honestly the first I’m hearing of them. Which goes to show you, there is a discrimination component to this. That church’s sign is exploiting 9/11 and not respectfully (to put it mildly) of those who died there yet there’s been nothing on the news while the Park 51 hoopla is utterly unending. Now try telling me again that Islamaphobia is made up.

    That said, disgusting as they are, they’ve a right to exist though as others have mentioned, that website looks like they definitely skirt the law. Perhaps I should have linked that WKRP episode here instead of the thread on University discrimination.

  • ATL-Apostate

    I didn’t make any assumptions about you, muggle. I said, “most of you” would choose the kooky Xtian church over the mosque. Also, not chosing was not an option.

    In my opinion, Islam is the most dangerous, destructive religion on the planet. I oppose it in all its forms. In other words, of all the fuckwittery out there, Islam is the fuckwittiest. And yes, I’m making an assumption about Muslims.

    Let’s have a prominent “moderate” muslim step up and prove me wrong.

    You won’t hear any moderate muslims speak out against the Islamist fuckwits because they’re afraid of being killed. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has 24/7 security. And she doesn’t count as a muslim any more, because she’s an atheist. Other muslim scholars use pen names for fear of being discovered by their muslim brethren.

  • Nordog

    “You won’t hear any moderate muslims speak out against the Islamist fuckwits because they’re afraid of being killed. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has 24/7 security. And she doesn’t count as a muslim any more, because she’s an atheist. Other muslim scholars use pen names for fear of being discovered by their muslim brethren.”

    This alone should demonstrate the difference between Christian kooks and Muslim kooks.

  • Brian Macker

    ATL,

    “Islam is wicked. It is the worst of the worst, as far as religions go.”

    Well second worst, the Aztecs had a much more bad ass religion.

    Were you speaking of living religions. Yes. Oh, well you got me there.

  • Erp

    You mean like the issuers of various fatwas against terrorism some of which are listed at http://makkah.wordpress.com/2007/09/22/reminder-fatwa-issued-against-osama-bin-laden/

  • ATL-Apostate

    You mean like the issuers of various fatwas against terrorism some of which are listed at http://makkah.wordpress.com/2007/09/22/reminder-fatwa-issued-against-osama-bin-laden/

    That’s a good start. However, the issuer of that Fatwa, Mansur Escudero, has predictably come under numerous death threats from the Muslim community.

    Here’s an excerpt, from page 62 of this 107 page report:

    “Because Escudero was the fatwa’s primary author, he has been the chief target of violent Islamists seeking to respond. One of the most notable threats appeared
    on a website associated with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the former leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq, which named Escudero as an ‘infidel’. The statement was believed to have come from Abu Maysara al-Iraqi, the
    so-called media coordinator for Zarqawi, and declared that members of the Islamic Commission would ‘be defeated and never be victorious because Allah has promised us victory.’184 Escudero has also received a
    string of e-mails which has been regarded as death threats.”

    The entire report, detailing what happens to Muslims who dare speak out can be found here:
    http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/files/1231525439_1.pdf

    These few outspoken individuals are not simply told they are going to hell, they have been assaulted, threatened and even murdered by these Islamist assholes.

    Take Samira Munir, a Pakistani women’s rights activist who was shoved in front of a train. The kooks at Westboro Baptist are bad, but they haven’t killed any “infidels” to my knowledge.

    Any other religion >> Islam

  • Brian Macker

    MikeTheInfidel,

    “What the hell is with people painting every single Muslim with the terrorist brush?”

    What the hell is it with you that you keep making shit up? I didn’t see that happen here. Point to the specific statement that you misinterpreted.

    “These aren’t the same people that attacked us. Learn to tell the difference.”

    These ARE the same people who defended the terrorists, fail to condemn terrorist organizations such as Hamas, are funded by terrorist front organizations, seek funding in countries that have state supported terrorism, advocate the establishment of Sharia world wide to supplant western laws such are freedom of religion, associate themselves with Fatwas against the building of churches, etc.

    Learn to tell the similarities.

  • http://hoverfrog.wordpress.com hoverfrog

    I particularly like the picture of Obama and Hitler. ‘Cos we all know that Hitler would have been best mates with with Obama, don’t we.

    Seriously crap web site though. I always say to site designer to decide on content first and then build a theme around it. That just looked like a teenager had vomited Christian stereotypes onto a page and tried to add HTML tags afterwards.

  • Brian Macker

    MikeTheInfidel,
    “Are you forgetting that Christians have bombed abortion clinics?”

    No, I don’t think the atheists here have forgotten. Especially with so many confused people bringing it up all the time.

    It’s not a valid analogy. They were not murdering people to spread Christianity. The bible doesn’t say, murder abortionists. Etc. There are many important differences.

    There are Christians who quite reasonably see abortion clinics as factories for murder. If you gave a woman a forcible abortion don’t you see that as tantamount to murdering her fetus? They don’t see the distinction when the mother does the same thing for trivial reasons, and especially in the third trimester, and especially against the wishes of the husband and/or family who have a direct interest in the child.

    I don’t want to get into an abortion debate and have to demolish both Christian fundamentalists and radical feminists, but they are both wrong. Abortion sanctioned by the mother can both be murder and not be murder depending on the circumstance.

    Plus McVeigh and the abortion bombers were lone nuts immediately condemned by Christians. Not like the 9/11 terrorists who have wide support throughout the Muslim world, polling quite favorably right after it happened. The number of terrorist organizations in the Islamic world is astounding and you’d be very hard pressed to name any in the Christian world, and if you did they would not be harking back to Christs teachings.

    Muslims who view non-Muslims as failing the “innocent” test feel quite justified in saying they are against the killing of innocents, while at the same time being for killing innocents from our point of view. The innocents they are thinking of just aren’t the same ones we are thinking of.

    So you get terrorist organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood, or Hamas making crocodile tear statements against 9/11, without actually condemning it. Ambigous as to whether they are upset about the innocent non-Muslims, and quite clear in condemning US actions.

    You just are NOT paying attention. Respected Imams from the most prestigious Islamic institutions throughout the world are constantly advocating Jihad, violence, murder, Sharia, stoning, slavery, etc. Islamic politicians too, elected ones. Hell, Palestinians have voted in two separate terrorist organizations, ones that target the innocent.

    Pay attention.

    Now if you had brought up witch burning then you might have had a valid point. Guess what, you’d get a different response from Christians, and me.


    “That it was a Christian who committed the Oklahoma City bombing?”

    Now you are just being nutty. McVeigh did not invoke Christianity for his acts.

    As a non-Christian there is no reason to be worried that any Christians (or especially atheists commenting here against this Imam) will bomb us in order to spread Christianity. Especially not based on McVeigh. He made no claims that he was going to heaven over this.

    “Not the same KIND of Christian as these, but by your ‘guilt by association’ rules, they’re culpable, and you should be up in arms about this.”

    They are not using guilt by association. The methods they are using are quite rational and reasonable.

    Are you against Nazi philosophy? Do you like Nazis? How about guys who form Nazi
    organizations, and become leaders of such organizations? You know like Imams are leaders in the front for spreading Islamic philosophy as contained in the Quran.

    Would you trust someone who said they were a Nazi, were nice and polite, but refused to condemn Hitler and his acts. How about if they said that Hitler was a good guy, and that his message was peaceful and only about getting the trains running on time, justice, animal rights, and justice for Germany. How about if they said to you that there was no Holocaust and that was
    just a lie by dirty Jews out to slander Nazism?

    What if someone was born to a family of Nazis and taught all this kind of nonsense about Nazism?

    What if Nazism was still a grave danger in the world and yet they denied the history, the acts against Jews, etc. had anything to do with Hitler? Is willful ignorance an excuse?

    What if they were actively making excuses about an ongoing campaign where Jews were being thrown in ovens, blaming it on them for their involvement with banking, and general greediness?

    Worse yet. Suppose that these Nazis believed that Hitler didn’t write Mein Kampf but only dictated what an infallible god had stated, at the beginning of time.

    Suppose that the Hitler wasn’t so shy about calling for extermination of his enemies, the Jews, (for Mohammad it’s the Idolators and people of non-Judeaochristian backgroud who are his main targets for extermination. Although Jews are also targets for ethnic cleansing). Suppose Hitler was successful in his ethnic cleansing of Europe (Muhammad ethnically cleansed the Arab Pennisula of Jews and Idolators). Suppose Hitler had won, but did so 1400 years ago.

    Suppose these Nazis claimed that not only were they for peace but that Nazism was the only valid path to it.

    Those are more valid and analogous questions you need to ask yourself about Islam.

    You also have to ask yourself why you don’t assume that you are using guilt by association when you denounce members of the KKK, the Nazis, the Stalinists, the Maoists, the Khmer Rouge, etc.

    I’m sure there were nice and polite members of those groups who also didn’t open their mouths against those movements for fear of death.

    You sure leap to condemn people against the mosque for rational reasons based bigoted statements by a few, by guilt by association. It’s clear that you haven’t even read the reasons given by the protests organizers. Reasons that have to do with Rauf’s support of terrorism.

    You are ignorant and ill informed on the subject, and paint with a very broad brush. It’s not like the protest were organized on the bullshit arguments you put into their mouths. That’s a straw man. Islam on the other hand was founded on evil principles.

    One of the methods I use for excusing Muslims for their membership in Islam is that they are ignorant of their own Quran. Another is that they are too scared to speak up because Islam itself advocates their murder if they do, and Mohammed directly practiced this method. Also there is lots of family pressure (your family with literally murder you) to tow the line.

    So no, I don’t blame people who self identify as Muslim, by guilt of association, for terrorist acts.

    I do however blame those who know the Quran, like Imams, and then lie about it. Especially when they advocate acting consistently with the very rights violating aspects of the religion that I find objectionable.

    Islam has problems Christianity doesn’t. The Qur’an was directly written by an vicious infallible diety, the bible by man. Mohammad was a vicious psychopath, unlike “love thy neighbor, don’t cast the stone” Jesus.

    Mohammad wrote down and provides an example of the most two faced double standard ethical rules, and the use new speak that the world has ever seen.

    No Muslim can admit that the fault lies in Islam, and therefore Islam cannot reform. It will forever be spawning off violent sects just so long as the Imams teach that the Qur’an is infallible. That’s because it plainly calls for violence.

    The proper solution is [analogously, admitting that Hitler was a mass murderer, and abandoning Nazis anti-semitism] cannot occur without a rejection of the message of the Qur’an. The whole religion falls to pieces the minute any truth is admitted about Mohammad.

    The Ostrich head in the sand solution won’t work. Truly rejecting Islams violence while still calling oneself Muslim has been tried by two sects. Both sects are tiny and subject to violent persecution at the hands of “moderate muslims” who rightly view them as non-Muslim apostates and therefore worthy of death.

    The violent nature of Islam was recognized by these peacefull sects long before 9/11, they attempted to correct it, and it is a dismal failure.

    I’m certain that the only reason they even call themselves Muslim is to prevent the death penalty for apostates. It’s the only option available to them, and it is best for them that they truly believe it lest they be found out and murdered.

    Just like many atheists used to profess their belief in god while at the same time criticizing Christianity. You don’t really think Thomas Paine was a theist, do you? He used god talk to sway because he knew the realities.

    Not very hard for him given Christs message.

    Things will not go well for such strategies with Islam. Mohammad was a terrorist, not a pacifist.

  • Brian Macker
  • Erp

    Brian, your initial statement was

    You won’t hear any moderate muslims speak out against the Islamist fuckwits because they’re afraid of being killed.

    Then when shown some Muslims who do speak out pointed out that they were threatened. Well yes but that was not the point being made.

    The Cordoba Initiative on 9/11

    Isn’t the location insensitive given that the 9/11 attackers were Muslims?? ?
    The events of 9/11 were horrific. What happened that day was terrorism, and it shames us that it was cloaked in the guise of Islam. It was inhumane, un-Islamic and is indefensible regardless of one’s religious persuasion. Not only Americans but also all Muslims are threatened by the lies and actions being perpetrated by these self-serving extremists and their perverted view of Islam.

    http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/frequently-asked-questions

  • http://www.twitter.com/shoopdeloop Jacob

    This has to be fake… right?

  • Erp

    Jacob, which ‘this’?

    The poster and the people behind it? No they are real enough. The New York Times has an article on their first meeting.

  • muggle

    Sigh, I’ll pointlessly point out (no need to link because Erp beat me to it) once again that moderate Muslims are speaking out — and this is what’s happening to them from their oh, so enlightened neighbors.

  • Brian Macker

    “I particularly like the picture of Obama and Hitler. ‘Cos we all know that Hitler would have been best mates with with Obama, don’t we.”

    They’re just doing tit for tat with all the Bushitler stuff, because they are just as crazy as the lefies.

  • Brian Macker

    Erp, and Muzzle,

    Telling you in English what you want to hear, while saying the opposite in Arabic to a different audience puts them in no danger whatsoever.

    The Muslims know what they are doing as they have been doing it for thousands of years. You however seem clueless even after the Arabic statements are pointed out.

    What explains their opposite positions in the two languages other than the bad kind of Taqiyya. The lies start with their very first paragraph describing what Cordoba was.

    These particular Muslims are having it both ways. Saying Peace Peace when they are in bed with you, but War War when they are sleeping with the Muslims. Which lover do you think they really want to marry, a kafir or a Muslim? They can’t marry you both with their rhetoric.

  • Brian Macker

    Erp,

    Brian, your initial statement was …”

    No it wasn’t.

    I never said:
    “You won’t hear any moderate muslims speak out against the Islamist fuckwits because they’re afraid of being killed.”

    I think Muslims in the US are much safer against such barbarity and it’s much more likely for them to speak out here. I suggest you research what happens to them in places like Iran where the ground zero Mosque Imam is seeking support because he can’t find it here.

  • Erp

    My apologies it was ATL-Apostate who wrote that.

    So which ones are lying and which ones are saying it because it is safe?

  • ATL-Apostate

    Yes, I take full credit for that little intellectual gem – “Islamist fuckwits.”

    Has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it?

    :-)
    (smiley emoticon at the end makes everything right… right?)

  • swedishskinjer

    …and all of these arguments about what Islam is and isn’t are irrelevant to the fact that the center is not solely a mosque (when I see someone refer to it as a “Ground Zero mosque”, as others on this article have done, I skip the remainder of their argument), is on legally owned property, was approved by the local zoning board, etc. Whether or not you are for or against the “mosque” constitutes no legal ground to deny them their right to construct it between an adult club and a grocery store in Manhattan.

    And the Islam/Nazism analogy is just terrible. It makes you sound like someone who has only read the Quran very briefly, only to come to the same simplistic conclusions about it as an art student who graduates and thinks he has such a profound understanding of the world without bothering to understand its complexities, its ability to be interpreted, etc.

  • bob

    I write political satire as a hobby, but the disgusting political exploitation of this “ground zero mosque” issue made me adopt a semi-serious approach.

  • Brian Macker

    Swedishskinjer,

    I never said it wasn’t legal. Are you saying the protest against it isn’t legal. All you mosque lovers arguments are irrelevant to whether people who oppose it can protest it, or even protest the very existence of Islam itself.

    I’ve read the Qur’an and it’s absolutely vile. Even the supposedly peaceful parts which are, in context, laughably intolerant.

    I don’t think you’ve read it. In fact, I think you are an ignoramus on the subject.

  • Brian Macker

    Bob,

    Your satire is stupid because it commits the very mistake it is satirizing. I haven’t heard anyone say “All Muslims are X” on this thread. You might have, but even if you did your argument rests on broad brushing all opponents of the Mosque based on those few individuals who think that way. Thus you think that way too.

    People are opposed to this Muslim, and this Mosque, and the particular teachings and practices of Islam. Undeniable and widespread practices, sanctioned by popular support, respected Islamic religious leaders, and politicians, as proven by the pollsters and polls.


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