When Christians Get Bullied By Gays…

Mike Adams at Townhall.com wrote one of the worst pieces you will ever read regarding the Christian response to the recent suicides in the GLBT community.

He refers to eight different incidents, including the following:

Graham was a freshman at a university in North Carolina. He was taking a class in the political science department when the issue of gay marriage came up. When Graham mentioned his opposition to same-sex marriage his professor told him to shut up. He then threatened him with prosecution under the university speech code. So Graham decided to file suit. But before the suit was filed he took his own life.

Mike was a professor in North Carolina. The director of the local LGBSTQQCCISA (Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgendered, queer, questioning, completely confused, indecisively-sexed, and allied) Center kept sending him emails promoting LGBSTQQCCISA issues. The director of the LGBSTQQCCISA Center admitted that she did it to provoke him. He felt bullied. So he killed himself.

There’s just one twist to all the stories:

These eight cases are all true except for one thing: The Christians who were bullied by gays and gay activists are all still alive. Not a single one has committed suicide. That is because they have centered their lives around Jesus Christ, rather than their sexual identity. And no amount of bullying can change my mind about that.

Where do you even begin with all that…

For Adams, “bullying” Christians amounts to criticizing their beliefs. That’s hardly an offense. In fact, we ought to be doing more of that. Bad beliefs deserve criticism.

I’d love to know why Adams thinks that no victim of suicide has ever been a Christian. Belief in Jesus doesn’t take away the pain and even Christians get depressed sometimes.

It’s not simply criticizing homosexuality that drove some of these young gay people to kill themselves — it was exposure of their most intimate moments. It was the thinking that things would never get better in their lives. And it wasn’t just Christians who caused the deaths — anyone who actively followed their lead and made the lives of gay people a living hell bear some of the burden.

Simply put, it’s a lot easier being a Christian than it is to be gay. I’d much rather be a Christian in the most liberal city in the country than be a gay man in the middle of the Bible Belt. No one is voting to take away the rights of Christians. No one is arguing that Christians aren’t fit to serve openly in the military. No one is saying Christians are unfit to be parents.

Not to mention there are plenty of gay people who call themselves Christians.

Adams is wrong on so many levels, and his lack of empathy for the gay people dying because of the way people like him treat homosexuals is very telling. He doesn’t care that they died, and if he does, he spends no time at all showing it.

  • Don Rose

    Well, now we know that Mike Adams is an idiot.

    We also know that he has no compassion for other human beings. Yet, somehow he thinks that being a christian makes him better than other people.

    I wish stupidity was painful.

  • http://alliedatheistalliance.blogspot.com/ pinkocommie

    I’ve heard this argument before. Regardless, that dude is a cock.

  • http://skepticalscribe.wordpress.com The Skeptical Scribe

    Mike Adams is the definition of a bigot.

  • http://virtualityforreal.blogspot.com/ Alankrita

    And the point of his story was???? I read that piece of whatever writing, then re-read it and did not get what he was trying to say. That bigoted people were called out for being “holier than thou” and felt bad about it? And that they did not kill themselves, but prayed in their quest for further martyrdom? So, considering how much that “suffering for religion” means to them, those 8 folk should be very grateful that people are so hostile to their religion, they are earning so much more in the afterlife!

  • Alex

    What Christians who “hate the sin, love the sinner” don’t understand is how that mentality removes the gay person’s humanity. They’re not their sexual identity, true – but what human doesn’t promote their capacity to love to the front of themselves? Even unconsciously? Those bigots argue, no, you can’t love. Your family will never be a real family. This part of you that cannot be changed is diseased and wrong. Something that feels that good and affirming – love – will condemn your soul for eternity. They hate what makes you YOU and only love the shell.

    As we all know, that’s a bunch of crap.

    • Maggie

      You are in many ways incorrect. First, when you say that we hate what makes you you and love the shell it is actually the complete opposite; we love you (homosexuality does not define who you are) and we dont like the shell of homosexuality that you have made for yourself. The Lord is the one that makes you you! He blessed us with the ability to love and asked that we follow His truths of how love is and we have slapped Him in the face and gone against His perfect order but He STILL loves use!!! A gay person who doesn’t believe in the Lord bases his/her humanity on that choice instead of on the unconditional love of God so instead of having a firm rock to stand on they are slipping in the mud and give up.

    • cecollie

      So, according to you, anything that feels good is right? NO ONE says people can’t love. Before you start calling names, maybe you better look in the mirror. The most hateful comments toward Christians all accuse Christians of lacking love. Pot meet kettle.

  • Alessa

    The thing that saddens me the most by this post is the fact that it doesn’t, in fact, surprise me at all.

  • http://villageatheist.org Drew

    There’s more truth found in the tabloids than from townhall.com.

  • keystothekid

    I think someone should let this guy know that being “bullied” for being part of the ENORMOUS MAJORITY is much different than being bullied when you are part of a minority.

    Secondly, of course Christians don’t kill themselves, they’d go to Hell! Hah. Kind of scary, there’s no way for them to escape daddy.

    • Maggie

      We would NOT go to Hell! All the Lord asks of us is to believe that He sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins and he rose from the dead As long as you believe that you will go to heaven. That doesn’t mean that you will not face the Lord’s judgement, but you will still enter Heaven!

      • cecollie

        Even the devil believes.

  • http://www.meaningwithoutgodproject.blogspot.com Jeffrey A. Myers

    Granted, professors should not tell students to ‘shut up,’ but even if true, this really doesn’t constitute ‘bullying’ anywhere remotely like what these poor kids went through. To make such a comparison is ghastly, bigoted, insulting and stupid.

    People like Mike Adams almost make me wish there was a Hell.

  • http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com miller

    Thousands of people read Mike Adam’s article and the stupid burned so much that they subsequently killed themselves.

    This story is true except for one thing: not a single one of those readers commit suicide. And yet, the mainstream media isn’t talking about this tragedy. So as usual, I have to do their jobs for them.

  • Lisa

    People like Mike Adams almost make me wish there was a Hell.

  • http://chaoskeptic.blogspot.com Iason Ouabache

    Every single Christian that he mentioned sued the people that were bullying them. So much for turning the other cheek.

    • cecollie

      Jesus said turn the other cheek…he never said lie down and be a door mat!

  • Jeff

    Even more painful to read are the comments left by Christians.

    Nothing so stupid can be uttered that a Christian won’t believe it; nothing so hateful and offensive that s/he won’t agree with it.

    • Maggie

      Might I say your comment was stupid and I don’t believe it? And that I also do not believe this article that is hateful and offensive to Christians and the Lord?!

      • cipher

        That’s the thing about your God, Maggie – for an omnipotent being, he takes offense very easily.

    • cecollie

      Wow! What a bigoted, hateful remark. Yep, you are just the epitome of love and acceptance…as long as we all agree with you. What a bunch of hypocrites!

  • Sarah

    has anyone read the comments to that article?? they are worse than the article!

    some of my “favorites” (most of which are from the same wacko)…

    You may say what pleases you. There is one bottom line: Get your life in order William. While you may. It runs out fast; and if you’re an active homosexual, you are hell-bound. You have to ask God for mercy and forgiveness. (The bottom line.) Do not die in your sins.

    i can’t even read any more nonsensical comments on that site. there are some decent ones though.

  • Miko

    He was taking a class in the political science department when the issue of gay marriage came up. When Graham mentioned his opposition to same-sex marriage his professor told him to shut up. He then threatened him with prosecution under the university speech code.

    I’d hope that we all find this objectionable (assuming it’s true). If a political science professor is simultaneously discussing a political issue and threatening prosecution against anyway who attempts to present an opposing viewpoint, something is seriously wrong.

    The director of the local LGBSTQQCCISA (Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgendered, queer, questioning, completely confused, indecisively-sexed, and allied) Center kept sending him emails promoting LGBSTQQCCISA issues.

    Slightly less objectionable: that’s what spam filters are for. Nonetheless, if he were to sue them for spamming him (i.e., sending unsolicited e-mail after he specifically asked them not to), I’d be on his side.

    For Adams, “bullying” Christians amounts to criticizing their beliefs

    Perhaps it does. But the examples you’ve quoted go beyond criticizing beliefs. Note the presence of key words such as “threatened him with prosecution” and “did it to provoke him.” These are examples of authority figures abusing their power with the specific goal of either stifling a student’s free speech or intentionally causing a person discomfort out of spite. Neither is acceptable behavior.

    Bad beliefs deserve criticism.

    There’s a difference between criticizing a belief and criticizing the person that holds the belief. You can criticize the belief all you want (say, by blogging), but the person that holds that belief has the right to be left alone, even if you feel like haranguing them because their beliefs differ from yours.

    I’d much rather be a Christian in the most liberal city in the country than be a gay man in the middle of the Bible Belt.

    Personally, I find Christianity so disgusting that I’d rather be dead than be a Christian, but put that aside. The fact remains that even if Christians are abused less often than gays (and they are, of course), abusing them is still unacceptable.

  • http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com miller

    @Miko,

    Personally, I find Christianity so disgusting that I’d rather be dead than be a Christian, but put that aside. The fact remains that even if Christians are abused less often than gays (and they are, of course), abusing them is still unacceptable.

    True, but given Adams’ admitted dishonesty, how much do you want to bet that he’s omitting some important details?

  • http://gaytheistagenda.lavenderliberal.com/ Buffy

    There’s so much concentrated bull in that article it could fertilize several acres of farmland.

  • http://st-eutychus.com Nathan

    It’s a stupid article. I’m not going to defend it at all. But I think this post may be a little misleading and wrong in one bit of the interpretation:

    “I’d love to know why Adams thinks that no victim of suicide has ever been a Christian. Belief in Jesus doesn’t take away the pain and even Christians get depressed sometimes.”

    I don’t think he’s saying that. I think in the context of this quote:

    “These eight cases are all true except for one thing: The Christians who were bullied by gays and gay activists are all still alive. Not a single one has committed suicide. “

    The “not a single one” is describing the eight examples he’s put forward.

    A claim that “not a single Christian has ever committed suicide” seems beyond the scope of this article, and worthy of a much bigger article if it were true. Which it’s not. I knew several Christians who committed suicide. Only the Catholic Church thinks suicide is unforgivable.

    So yeah, dumb article, should never have been written – using suicide as a rhetorical device like that is just incredibly insensitive.

    No publisher should allow that to go live. The media in Australia even ban stories on suicides lest they subliminally (or directly) lead to more. Not sure if that’s the case in the US.

  • ksands

    Being a Christian doesn’t automatically lead to such bigotry. Being an idiot leads to such bigotry. “Bullying” has nothing to do with telling a kid to shut his mouth because he’s being offensive. “Bullying” has nothing to do with SPAM. Otherwise, there’d be a lot more lawsuits out there.

    “Bullying” has to do mocking people for how they feel, has to do with invading people’s privacy, broadcasting it on the web and then ridiculing them.

    I am a Christian and proud of it. But I am also a firm supporter in the rights of all individuals and a firm believer in the power of love, no matter if it man to man, man to woman or woman to woman.

    I wish people would focus on the important part of Christianity, which is love, and not all the hate. And I mean the Christians. If I didn’t know that Jesus taught love, I would become disgusted with most “Christians” myself.

    • cecollie

      When you threaten prosecution because someone says they disagree with your point of view…that’s bullying. You really need to look up the definition of hate and maybe check out a few of Jesus teachings before you get all holier than thou.

  • J. J. Ramsey

    pinkocommie: “I’ve heard this argument before. Regardless, that dude is a cock.”

    Don’t insult cocks that way.

  • http://secularshawshank.wordpress.com Andy

    These eight cases are all true except for one thing: The Christians who were bullied by gays and gay activists are all still alive. Not a single one has committed suicide. That is because they have centered their lives around Jesus Christ, rather than their sexual identity. And no amount of bullying can change my mind about that.

    Translation: If you believe like I do, you won’t be at risk for suicide, no matter how much you are tormented by bullies. Because no true Scotsmen—er, I mean Christians ever commit suicide.

    I’m angered that he thinks LGBT persons center their lives around their sexual identity. Can straight people—even those straight people who make it their life’s mission to dehumanize LGBT people—be said to “center their lives” around their sexual identity?

    I’m going to link to Dan Savage’s column of last week because I think it’s relevant to this discussion, and so damn spot-on.

  • http://secularshawshank.wordpress.com Andy

    Grr. Wrong Dan Savage link. Sorry. It’s the Oct 14th Savage Love column (not Oct 21st). Sorry.

    http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=5135029&mode=print

  • littlejohn

    He couldn’t have taken his Christianity very seriously, since doing so would have guaranteed an eternity in hell for committing suicide.
    I regret that he felt the need to kill himself, but I suspect there is something else going on here. Just a guess, but maybe he was in the closet.
    BTW, the professor shouldn’t haven’t told him to shut up, it that’s what actually happened.

  • =P

    @littlejohn

    read the article before commenting, please.

  • Richard Wade

    Adams trivializes the bullying of gays by comparing it to these comparatively trivial conflicts in his “incidents.” I don’t think he would last one day as a gay man, taking the abuse from his fellow bigots, after 2,000 days of it and seeing nothing but more of the same in the future. Christian or not, he’d collapse into despair like a punctured balloon.

    As for Christian suicides, they happen. I used to work with suicidal people, and several were Christians. Two killed themselves while they were my patients. Their religion was no match for depression, and no comfort for the real world ordeals they suffered. Later I heard another Christian suggest that they “didn’t have enough faith.” That’s blaming the victim, and I told him so in very clear terms.

    Years before that, I worked on a crisis hotline. One called me up, having already taken a handful of barbiturates. There was no way to “trace the call.” That’s only in the movies. He talked about being forgiven and going to heaven. In his mind at least, Christianity gave him license to do it. I was good at what I did, but nothing I said swayed him. So I sat there and kept him company until he dropped the phone. After it was quiet for a while, I hung up.

  • http://www.twitter.com/jalyth Tizzle

    Is it wrong of me to laugh at the acronym? Probably. The rest of the thing sounds suspicious and despicable.

  • Fundie Troll

    No one is saying Christians are unfit to be parents.

    Apparently 73.53% of the respondents to a poll of yours do in fact believe that Christians are unfit to be parents…

  • Sean

    To be clear, if a mental health professional insists on putting his/her own religious beliefs before a client’s well-being, that is an ethics violation and has to be approached as such. Promoting a dysfunctional and pseudoscientific “conversion therapy” just makes the situation worse. Nor is it tenable to certify someone with an announced intention to commit such a violation. What would one do with someone who decided that schizophrenia should be cured with exorcism, and that anti-psychotic medications were immoral?

    Some of the cases mentioned were legitimate problems, but…

    He scraped up 8 cases, several mild or irrelevant, to support a tu quoque fallacy, fail to support any clear point, and trivialize a phenomenon that causes kids to kill themselves. I can’t imagine a more thoroughly awful statement.

    (OK, maybe I can, but that’s not the point.)

  • cat

    “threatened him with prosecution under the university speech code” You can’t be ‘prosecuted’ under university rules. You can be sanctioned by the university, but you can’t actually be hauled in front of a court of law. Even in regards to a public university, you have to actually commit a crime before they can do anything other than sanctions.

    As to these two incidents, they are so damned mild. I had to laugh at the second one, considering that this problem could have been easily eliminated by blocking a certain email address and the content of the emails were just the regular announcements. “they put me on the listserv” is probably the least egregious harassment accusation ever. Both of these incidents are so mild, I wish that the homophobia and transphobia I have experienced was so mild as one rude teacher or being stuck on an email list (and, seriously why can’t this dude work the block function on his email). I also suspect that this kids ‘opposition to gay marriage’ took more of an opposition in the form of genocide form than a ‘i have sensitive jesusy feelings’ form.

    Oh, and the victim blaming assumption that suicide is a moral failure, classic christian as well.

  • Jeff

    @littlejohn: He couldn’t have taken his Christianity very seriously, since doing so would have guaranteed an eternity in hell for committing suicide.

    From the comments: Premeditated suicide is a sin; and the teen homosexuals guilty of killing themselves add that to their grave sins of impurity already condemned by God. Two mortal sins for which damnation is the price. God is infinitely Just in his judgments. No deliberate suicide can be saved. His despair offends God; and yes, so does sodomy.

    @Nathan: Only the Catholic Church thinks suicide is unforgivable.

    Uh huh. And, please – don’t give us any bullcrap about how they don’t understand REAL Christian theology.

  • AxeGrrl

    Alex wrote:

    Those bigots argue, no, you can’t love. Your family will never be a real family. This part of you that cannot be changed is diseased and wrong. Something that feels that good and affirming – love – will condemn your soul for eternity. They hate what makes you YOU and only love the shell.

    As we all know, that’s a bunch of crap.

    Nail. Head.

    I cannot tell you how weary I am of seeing the ‘homosexuals being celibate is better than them having loving, committed relationships’ believers deal with their cognitive dissonance by saying that they truly ‘love’ gay people…..

    horse pucky. Anyone who basically says ‘you don’t deserve to have a loving one-on-one romantic relationship with anyone; even if the other person is a consenting adult‘ to someone does not ‘love’ them. Period.

    • cecollie

      Your OPINION!! You are the bigot here, my dear. I cannot tell you how weary I am of hearing people like you spouting your hatred and claiming it is everyone else who is the source of hate in the world.

  • http://midspoint.com Mid

    So, after reading all of your Hateful, Hurtful, Vitrolic responses toward Christians, I am wondering how that differs to you from gay bashing??
    Do you not hear yourselves?? Good grief!! Your comments show you are no better than the ones you “despise”.

    Your flaunting your homosexuality and spewing hate-filled comments against Christians doesn’t offend me…it offends a Righteous Holy God who said it was wrong…You are only rebelling against Him. I feel sorry for you all, not because you are gay or defending gays, but because you are no different from anyone who spits in God’s face. I feel sorry for you because you don’t know or understand a God who would, out of love for you, lay down His life, through His only Son.
    My love for gays is no different than my love for the homeless alcoholic lying in a gutter, cursing God, or the preacher who runs off w/another man’s wife, or the atheist who mocks those who Believe. Take that as you will.

  • Secular Stu

    The director of the local LGBSTQQCCISA (Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgendered, queer, questioning, completely confused, indecisively-sexed, and allied) Center kept sending him emails promoting LGBSTQQCCISA issues.

    OH THE HORROR! Oh, the humanity! However did he manage to get on with his life? Oh, yes. Christianity. How reassuring the Word must be, to allow him to get through such adversity.

    I’m going to make a film in honor of how he overcame such hardship. Boys Don’t Cry II. The inspirational story of one man and his attempt to clear his inbox. It’ll start with another Christian girl and her understandable response to receiving an email like that. Then it’ll move on to the professor’s story. At the very end, it’ll have those based-on-a-true-story “where are they now” titles:

    None of these Christians actually died thanks to Jesus. The professor now teaches the flaws in evolution at his school. Jessica went on to lead a successful political campaign to oppose gay marriage.

  • Mike

    “No one is saying Christians are unfit to be parents.”

    Apparently ~75% of the respondents to a poll of yours do in fact believe that Christians are unfit to be parents…

    Ok, I’ll feed…

    No, 73.53% believe that that one specific Christian is unfit to be a parent.

  • http://st-eutychus.com Nathan

    Jeff,

    Uh huh. And, please – don’t give us any bullcrap about how they don’t understand REAL Christian theology.

    Can you point me to any teaching in the Bible that suggests that suicide is unforgivable?

    I’m well aware of the danger of running around looking under kilts – but true Scotsmen are from Scotland, and true Christians generally base their beliefs on what the Bible has to say.

    Calling yourself a Scotsman doesn’t make you Scottish, calling yourself a Christian doesn’t make you a Christian.

  • Raven

    I am reminded of the episode of Top Gear where they went to the deep south in cheap cars painted with slogans meant to provoke people (“Man Love Rules” and “Hillary 4 President”), and at one point a bunch of guys started throwing rocks and were getting “the boys” to come by with dogs and guns.

    A lot of people tried to defend the south by saying that liberals could be just as biased, and to that I say I’d rather suffer some sarcasm and a drive-by leaflet-ing in Berkeley or Santa Cruz any day. Likewise, while the author of that blog post was able to come up with some examples of inappropriate behavior, it was nowhere near on the level of what some gays have to put up with.

  • muggle

    I’d love to know why Adams thinks that no victim of suicide has ever been a Christian. Belief in Jesus doesn’t take away the pain and even Christians get depressed sometimes.

    I was very suicidal when I was a Christian teen. The suicidal tendencies evaporated when I left my fundy nutjob mother’s repressive home and broke free of religion.

    LGBSTQQCCISA (Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgendered, queer, questioning, completely confused, indecisively-sexed, and allied)

    That derogatory bit of purposely effing with the initials to say mean things about organized efforts to promote equality kind of says it all about what a bigoted asshole he is.

    Except, Miko, I’m finding it hard to believe any statement from a source that spends the whole article claiming suicides then admits he was lying about that at the end of the article. What else is he stretching the truth on? Yes, if these stories were in the news and showed interference with Christians rights, I’d be uh uh, you can’t do that shit. But this article just had me saying details, please. I sure didn’t want to take this jerk’s word for even claiming the events happened. Notice he didn’t even use last names.

    Fundie Troll, you are once again being disingenous. That poll was about a specific incident wherein a specific parent was making a specific child approach strangers in a mall was child abuse or not — not if Christians in general are unfit parents. I voted yes because I was horrified that the parent was making their kid dangerously approach strangers but I’d vote no on a poll asking if Christians were unfit parents. Some are, most aren’t just like Atheists.

    Nathan, sigh, it is not just the Catholics (gawd, what a bigoted assumption) that forbid suicide. When I was a suicidal teenager 35 years ago, I had to date been raised Protestant and taught commit suicide, go to hell. As Richard said, religion can’t compete with depression.

    And, Richard, that story sent a chill up my spine. What a hard job and cudos to you for having the fortitude (not everyone could). There are probably lives you have saved just by being on the other end of the phone. I had a friend I called many times instead of making an attempt. To this day, I don’t think he knows he got me through.

  • muggle

    Oh, and, Nathan, here’s one Christian who disagrees with you:

    http://www.behindthebadge.net/suicide/s92.html

    a quick google found that.

    Of course, by you, if he disagrees with you (as opposed to disagreeing with god), he’s not a real Christian even though you aren’t supposed to make judgments about that but leave it to god to judge. (Frankly, being afraid to do just that and trust god’s judgement speaks volumes about how insecure you are in your faith and why you spam this blog with nonsense and assertions backing them up with only it’s only real Christianity if I say it is.)

    BTW, yep, he does reference something in the buybull. And there were many others who take the thou shalt not kill/murder commandment as including suicide, which it would have to since that is what suicide is.

  • Vas

    “The main stream media isn’t covering the story so, as usual, I have taken it upon myself to do their jobs for them. None of the following eight cases have been covered by any of the three major news networks.”

    and then…

    “These eight cases are all true except for one thing: The Christians who were bullied by gays and gay activists are all still alive. Not a single one has committed suicide.”</blockquote
    So there is no story, you make up a bunch of shit that ain't true and then chastise the "main stream media" for not covering it? Are your claims.(the ones you didn't already admit were a lie) even true? Just how much of your article is fabricated, you site no sources, how are we to know if anything you say is based in fact? The reason you have to "take it upon yourself" is that no creditable news organization would have you on staff or accept your work. It is pretty simple Mr. Adams, you are a crackpot, a instigator, a bigot, and a all around kook.

  • littlejohn

    I’ve apparently generated a few responses, two disagreeing with me, one apparently agreeing with me, although it’s hard to tell. I dislike arguing.
    I’m not going to re-read the Bible to find some reference to suicide. I will assume my critics are right. My Catholic mother (which I assume make me Catholic) told me that suicide (like offending the Holy Spook) is unforgivable.
    I trust someone who knows scripture better than I can clear this up. I’m probably wrong, but who knows, I occasionally get lucky.
    To end any speculation about my beliefs, I never believed in god, not even as an infant. Not to put too fine a point on it, I think believers are morons.
    I’m pretty thick-skinned, so insult me all you like. That won’t change the fact that I’m really good-looking and my family is rich. Kiss my shiny metal ass.
    OK, I don’t look all that great and my ass isn’t shiny, but I really don’t mind criticism. Go for it, you poor ugly people.

  • AxeGrrl

    Mid wrote:

    My love for gays is no different than my love for the homeless alcoholic lying in a gutter

    It is these kind of comparisons that reveal something very different from ‘love’……and that is ignorant condescension.

  • Mike

    My love for gays is no different than my love for … the atheist who mocks those who Believe. Take that as you will.

    That’s a kind of love I can do without….

  • http://annainca.blogspot.com Anna

    My love for gays is no different than my love for the homeless alcoholic lying in a gutter, cursing God, or the preacher who runs off w/another man’s wife, or the atheist who mocks those who Believe. Take that as you will.

    Yikes. You have a strange definition of “love.” I feel incredibly lucky not to have been exposed to this kind of belief system as a child. It sure seems to me like it warps one’s sense of morality and compassion.

  • Wally

    So, after reading all of your Hateful, Hurtful, Vitrolic responses toward Christians, I am wondering how that differs to you from gay bashing??
    Do you not hear yourselves?? Good grief!! Your comments show you are no better than the ones you “despise”.

    Right…cause when a group of people gets called out on obvious bigotry, they’re the victims! Boo on the people for the gall to expose our irrational hatreds!

    I wonder if any of the anti-civil rights people thought comments from the pro-rights crowd were Hateful, Hurtful, Vitrolic

    Your flaunting your homosexuality and spewing hate-filled comments against Christians doesn’t offend me…it offends a Righteous Holy God who said it was wrong…You are only rebelling against Him.

    I guess that’s where you and I differ. You want to quail before a murderous, psychopathic, bigoted, homophobic, misogynistic monster like God. I want to overthrow this obviously evil tyrant.

    I feel sorry for you all, not because you are gay or defending gays, but because you are no different from anyone who spits in God’s face. I feel sorry for you because you don’t know or understand a God who would, out of love for you, lay down His life, through His only Son.

    I’ll spit in anyone’s face, divine or not, who promotes bigotry and violence against a minority of people who just want to share the same rights as everyone else, and live in peace.

    My love for gays is no different than my love for the homeless alcoholic lying in a gutter, cursing God, or the preacher who runs off w/another man’s wife, or the atheist who mocks those who Believe. Take that as you will.

    You keep using this word, “love”. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

  • http://st-eutychus.com Nathan

    Hi Muggle,

    Nathan, sigh, it is not just the Catholics (gawd, what a bigoted assumption) that forbid suicide. When I was a suicidal teenager 35 years ago, I had to date been raised Protestant and taught commit suicide, go to hell.

    It’s actually Catholic doctrine that suicide is an unforgivable sin because you’re committing what they class as a mortal sin without confession past the fact. That’s not bigoted. It’s the official position of the Catholic Church.

    Since the protestant movement broke away from the Catholic church on the basis of grace v works (protestants believe God’s grace, and his sacrifice on our behalf, covers all sins from the moment of repentance) it’s a hard stretch to suggest that a Christian who commits suicide is somehow unforgivable just because they’ve broken one of the ten commandments. They may want to pull the “well, no true Christian would kill themselves, therefore that person is now in hell” card – but that looks like a fallacy to all of us doesn’t it? Especially when it has no basis in the Bible.

    Protestant churches are more than capable of getting things wrong, as are protestants writing on the internet.

    The guy in your link has just ripped a few verses out of separate arguments in separate passages without paying any regard to their context in order to build his particular case. It’s quote mining. And I know your feelings on quote mining…

    he’s not a real Christian even though you aren’t supposed to make judgments about that but leave it to god to judge. (Frankly, being afraid to do just that and trust god’s judgement speaks volumes about how insecure you are in your faith…)

    It’s great that you can quote one verse of the Bible at me (judge not lest ye be judged) – it’s apparently the atheist’s favourite Bible quotation (according to Google). And I commend you for lasting so many paragraphs before switching to an ad hominem attack (though not so many if you take out the paragraphs addressed to other people).

    As Richard said, religion can’t compete with depression.

    Agree. And I will continue to make that case to my misguided religious friends.

    I think we can all agree that suicide is horrible, that churches misunderstanding mental illness is horrible, and that evoking fear in a depressed person on the basis of hell is also horrible. I was simply putting it out there that a) I think Hemant has misunderstood/misrepresented the “not a single one of them” statement – because in the context of the article he is clearly talking about his eight examples, and b) that the argument that Christians don’t commit suicide is based on the Catholic teaching on suicide, and bad (unbiblical) teaching from others – it’s not a position shared by all Christians, nor is it the default Christian position (not being explicitly stated anywhere in the Bible).

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  • muggle

    Sigh, Nathan, you said it was only Catholics that claimed that. I’m telling you there are Protestants that do. You are wrong. End of story.

    Only the Catholic Church thinks suicide is unforgivable.

    Do you know what the word only means? Here’s a clue: it’s not one of several; it’d mean they were the only ones. I was raised Protestant with the teaching that to kill oneself is a direct ticket to hell.

  • http://eternalbookshelf.wordpress.com Sharmin

    I am sick and tired of people who are bigots turning the situation around and claiming that they’re being discriminated against when someone criticizes their bigotry. They pretend to care about equality and justice when they’re really just making other people’s lives miserable. (They’ll then claim that LGBT people being depressed or suicidal is due to being LGBT, ignoring the effect that the discrimination can have on them.)

  • http://st-eutychus.com Nathan

    Muggle,

    Can you find me a protestant church who has that position in their statement of doctrines and beliefs please?

  • http://st-eutychus.com Nathan

    You’re right though Muggle – I did use an absolute term where I shouldn’t have, and for that I apologise. I guess my words were chosen poorly. And I retract them.

    Let me say though, for the record, teachings that suggest that suicide is unforgivable are unbiblical and usually based on poor prooftexting and a misunderstanding of sin, depression and mental illness. A misunderstanding built on tradition, and not on the Bible, it doesn’t make them not Christian, it just means their position is impossible to theologically or scientifically justify.

  • SeekerLancer

    Yes telling a Christian to shut up or calling them a bigot totally equates to all the psychological and physical torture that drove other people to suicide! /sarcasm

    Wow.

    How can one be so unsympathetic and still call themselves a human being?

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  • Maggie

    Adams was pretty right but I believe you were brought to confusion when he mentioned how none of the Christians had commited suicide. When he made this remark he was specifically talking about the examples he had shown. Adams should have talked of how some Christians do commit suicide because they have not achieved a confident knowin of how God is always there for them. You are right when you say that it doesn’t take away the pain but it does make you stronger when you believe in Jesus. In response to your comment on how “bad beliefs deserve criticism;” Christianity is by NO means a bad belief! It is the one belief that is actually true! There is more proof of Christianity than evolution! Also, people have voted against Christianity; the put evolution in schools! Also, Christians have maintained many rights because of the logic of their belief. I am absolutely sure that Adams does care about the horrifying, deadly decisions that those people had made. He was making a point on how the Lord helps Christians to stand strong and not fall from disagreement.

  • Me

    i know it sounds terrible,  but i have come to the point where i am going to slash any Christians throat for this gay bullying bullshit!


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