Ask Richard: Should Unsuccessful Atheists Stay in the Closet?

Whenever I hear people speak of financial gain as the ONLY marker of success, I can’t help but think of a poem that we read in 3rd grade.

Richard Cory

Whenever Richard Cory went down town,
We people on the pavement looked at him:
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,
Clean-favoured and imperially slim.

And he was always quietly arrayed,
And he was always human when he talked;
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,
“Good Morning!” and he glittered when he walked.

And he was rich, yes, richer than a king,
And admirably schooled in every grace:
In fine — we thought that he was everything
To make us wish that we were in his place.

So on we worked and waited for the light,
And went without the meat and cursed the bread,
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,
Went home and put a bullet in his head.

This question reminds me of a very serious problem that many people with unprivileged identies face on a regular basis. When part of your identity makes you one of a group of people who are routinely discriminated against (if you’re a person of color, if you’re a woman, if you’re queer or trans, if you’re not Christian, if you’re not middle/upper-class, etc.), to many people, you become representative of the entire group.

I’m one of many women who feels pressured to be incredibly successful in my career in order to set the example that women are good at science. Of course, if I’m BAD at science, that doesn’t mean that all women are, but quite often, that assumption gets made subconsciously by a lot of people.

So, should you keep your atheism a secret to keep people from assuming that it’s somehow connected to a lack of financial success? I mean, it’s up to you if you think it’ll affect your personal relationships, but on the whole, I think it’s a pretty stupid assumption. And if any prominent religious person ever points to you and tells a crowd of people that your atheism is why you’re unsuccessful, you’ll have a ton of other atheists standing up and pointing out that 1) correlation does not equal causation, and 2) one person is not an adequate sample size :-p

My brother, a bizarre sort of theist (he attended a “harmonic convergence” event once, for example), wrote an article about how drug addicts could find meaning in life. His article said that the nihilism of atheism was negative and that addicts should adopt some belief system to help them recover. I think he’s crazy and he thinks I’m crazy. But then again, I’m the one who’s suffered from major clinical depression, agoraphobia, and social phobia. So I don’t feel like much of a poster child for atheism. Maybe he’s right–if I could believe in all that crap, I might be happier. But I can’t. Does atheism make me less happy than the average person? Well, it excludes me from the group I grew up in, the church. But this is who I am.

Success is relative, as Richard pointed out. Utilizing “success” as a qualifier or recruitment tool for atheism or deism is just wrong.

Personally, I was a member of the church when I was too young to consider myself a contributor to society. I think there are so many lies, white lies, half truths, etc that we face on a daily basis, that being true to my atheism makes me a better individual and therefore, successful in one aspect of my life.

I hate the idea of having to hide who you are to keep a friend or even worse, keep your job. If a person withholds love and support, they weren’t worth having in your life in the first place. Now, we all have to eat and pay bills, that’s a different story and to each their own.

In the end, when I have money and when I don’t, I stick to my lack-of-belief

i confess to being often confused by the emerging “coming out” meme that seems to be discussed with increasing frequency on atheist blogs. for people who are NOT in the business of promoting free thought/atheism/humanism in media, politics and society, my question is: to whom are you “coming out?” the only reason people know or care (or don’t) about my atheism is because i am a writer and i make it a major point in my work, for analytical or polemical reasons. nobody asks me when i’m on the bus or in a store, “so, what religion are you?”

i know there are dysfunctional families out there and that sometimes people are in the closet as a result of that. i know that if one has a job associated with a religious organization, one might be asked for a “statement of faith” or some such as a condition of employment. but in most situations, is it really that important, or imperative, that people know one’s faith? if so, why?

this is where the “atheist is the new gay” meme fails, imho. it’s still perfectly legal to fire queers just for being queer. but an atheist is protected rather specifically under the Constitution. there have even been successful legal challenges by differently- or non-believing folks who work for specifically denominational religious organizations like the Catholic church, when they were discriminated against or fired by that type of organization for lack of “proper” belief.

if this person is talking about religious friends they fear they’ll lose or lose respect, well. why would you want friends like that in the first place? i am harsh on belief but i count many believers my friends and only gently mock them, and only sometimes. we’ve learned to get along and agree to disagree. that’s what real friendship means.

if the community in which you live is so constipated by belief, and you find yourself depressed and unsuccessful there, my advice is: move. i know how hard it is to be poor, i know what it is to be depressed. but i’m telling you, staying in a situation in which those things are chronic problems in your life makes no sense. there are still jobs in major american cities; cheap housing situations (while perhaps not in the fashionable neighborhoods) and plenty of communities who don’t define themselves by belief. find a place like that, and start over. only the street freaks are publicly vocal about religion in big cities, and they can’t oppress you unless it’s by standing in your way while you’re trying to catch the bus.

and to the point of Richard’s advice: atheism isn’t anything but atheism. some of us are rich, some poor, some brown, some pink, some str8, some queer. i don’t make any generalizations about any atheist i meet or speak with beyond “so, you’re an atheist. cool!”

I’m financially unsuccessful and have bipolar disorder. Most people in my social circle know I’m an atheist. If any of them think my troubles are due to my lack of belief, they’ve not said so.

And even if they did, I wouldn’t care. It’s not my job to be the poster girl for atheism. It’s my job to live this one life to the best of my ability. I don’t waste my time worrying if I’m a good enough atheist. I spend my time trying to stay well and making positive changes in my life.

But what better advertisement for atheism could there be other than that it’s open to the entire human race, regardless of condition, and that atheists struggle with their humanity just like everyone else?

his is where the “atheist is the new gay” meme fails, imho. it’s still perfectly legal to fire queers just for being queer. but an atheist is protected rather specifically under the Constitution.

This is of course true and it has real consequences, but I think the fact remains that many of the consequences for “coming out” as atheist can be quite similar. People can be fired and as long as the boss isn’t so stupid as to come out and say that it was for religion, he/she can discriminate in a way so you know it but can’t ever prove it. Being shunned by friends and family likewise is another shared property.

Which isn’t to say that both communities face equal hardship. Guaranteed equal treatment under the law cannot be underestimated. Also, atheism is not (for the moment) such a culture war flashpoint that young atheists have to bear bullying, beatings, and see themselves called immoral and “sick” day in and day out. Clearly the queer community has to deal with a lot more crap.

I don’t think we have a right to ask anyone to “stay in the closet”. Everyone has a right to their identity. The only kind of atheist that is “bad” as far as I’m concerned are atheists who happen to be bad people. An unethical douchebag is certainly not someone I want representing my community. However we can’t request they stay closeted, we merely have to show, through our actions, that they aren’t representative.

@phira

http://xkcd.com/385/

I don’t understand the whole “coming out” thing. Coming out of what? And why would anyone think that Christians don’t have worldy problems? We do. We just have a different way of dealing with them. We ask for Help. It doesn’t always come in the form we think we need, but it comes. To the world we often look like we are very unsuccessful, but in our hearts we know differently.

I think there are two related stereotypes about “successful” and “unsuccessful” atheists, as far as public image goes.

Stereotype #1 holds that all atheists are depressed, bitter, and cynical, and that our atheism has been caused by a series of unhappy events in our lives. These are the “unsuccessful” atheists. Of course, our atheism almost certainly has nothing to do with financial, medical or other difficulties, but that doesn’t stop theists from believing that we would be happier if we just turned to their preferred deity.

Stereotype #2 asserts that happy atheists are only happy if life is going smoothly for us. These are the “successful” atheists who happen to have good health and good relationships with family and friends. However, as soon as things get tough, theists believe that we’ll be unable to deal with life’s difficulties on our own. It all goes back to their belief that no one can be truly happy or fulfilled without their deity.

Whichever type of atheist we are, we’re caught in a bind because many theists don’t really want to understand the truth about our lives, good or bad. For these people, an “unsuccessful” atheist is confirmation of their entrenched bias, and a “successful” one is merely biding time until (they believe) we’ll be begging for their god at the first hint of serious trouble.

Also, how do you know you wouldn’t be happier if you were close to God? Ever tried it? To know for sure wouldn’t you have to try life both ways?

@Deanna: Because there are no gods. I wouldn’t be happy to be close to leprechauns, either. Pretty sure I don’t need to try out the theory.

Deanna,

I think you will find that most of us were at one time believers, usually Christian, so you can’t say we haven’t tried both ways. Have you ever considered the possibility that you are mistaken in your belief?

Sorry, but the “Bob” analogy is silly. I can go knock on the door to verify if Bob lives there. If a physical being named Bob lives there I’ll find him. No matter what your personal experience feels like to you, it is not sufficient evidence for me. You can’t see your god, and neither can I. I don’t know if you are a newcomer here – if so, howdy and welcome. I think you should know that I and probably every atheist here has heard every argument for theism that you could possibly think of and rejected all of them. We’re generally a very thoughtful bunch, as I’m sure you are.

I don’t think that theists spend all their time thinking about atheists, because we are invisible unless we speak up. That’s the problem. When we do speak up, some theists go ape shit at the mere suggestion that we exist. (see the billboard and bus sign stories) We are tolerated as long as we don’t express our views.

I have personal problems that I find to be terribly difficult at times, but I know that my family and friends will help me. I don’t lean on your god or any other god because I would be grasping at straws. I need real arms to hold me, real kisses on the cheek, and real hands to wipe away my tears.

Aw, yeah I can understand that. I get panic attacks. Not fun. I love me some chemicals, though. LOL. Science FTW! I can see science saving bodies, minds and lives. Gods, not so much.

Hi Deanna,
I appreciate your questions because you seem to be sincerely wanting to understand. I would like to respectfully help you to understand me and possibly other atheists.

You said,

It’s interesting that athiests think that Christians spend a lot of time and energy thinking about them and having stereotypes about them.

This is an example of how a stereotype starts and keeps going. “Atheists” don’t think that. Some atheists might think that, but when you just say “atheists think that,” the implied meaning, “they all think that” gets started. If you were to repeat that to a theist, he or she might repeat it, and embellish it, and quickly we have yet another negative stereotype that is only supported by its repetition.

You got the impression that you were expressing from a very pre-selected group of atheists. They are a few who are commenting on a blog post that is partly about stereotypes. They are not (all) “atheists.” They’re a teeny weeny fraction, and they’re probably only thinking about Christians’ stereotypes while they’re reading this post. It’s a very common and very human mistake anyone can make, to assume that whatever example of a category we’re looking at represents the whole group.

So if I were to overhear three Christians complaining about atheists, it would not be fair or correct for me to then say “It’s interesting that Christians spend a lot of time and energy complaining about atheists,” because I would be taking a sample of three to imply a characterization of the whole category, and I would be taking a sample of a few minutes of their time to characterize the bulk of their time.

Actually, we know that most Christians don’t spend much if any time being concerned with us. Very few realize that they know any atheists. So if they have any thoughts about us, they are generally making assumptions based on not knowing. We only start talking about their misconceptions or stereotypes when some tell us to our faces, or they tell the media when they’re interviewed on the street, or they’re a pundit who makes a living spreading such falsehoods. Then we complain a lot.

I very much appreciate your and your friends’ attitude that whether or not people believe is between them and God. If that were true of all Christians, then we wouldn’t have to spend so much time keeping teacher-led prayer out of public schools, objecting to Christian-only-and-nothing-else prayers at city council meetings, fighting religious-based laws limiting the freedom of consenting adults to love each other, defending ourselves from slander when we simply announce to each other that we’re here in town, and many, many other problems caused by a few very active Christians who don’t see fit to leave other’s beliefs up to them and God.

You said,

I will say that I have wondered, to use an analogy, how you know that Bob doesn’t live across the street when you’ve never gone over there and knocked on the door.

Assuming your analogy is about believing in God, I’ll use it to explain my point of view.

There is a vacant lot across the street from where I live. My next door neighbor comes over and tells me that Bob lives over there in a wonderful house, and he’s really a great guy, and I should get to know him.

I politely tell my next door neighbor that all I see is a vacant lot. He gives me a book about Bob and I read it. I look at the book and look at the vacant lot, and no matter how hard I try I don’t see Bob or his house. I even walk around that empty lot, but there’s nothing but dust and weeds.

My next door neighbor says that I won’t see the house until I believe it’s there. That is backwards to the basic way that I think. For me, seeing is believing. He’s telling me that believing is seeing. That’s a little scary to me because I know of some people in mental hospitals who see what they believe rather than believe what they see. Nevertheless, I consider it and try to believe it first. But sorry, my neurons simply will not fire in reverse.

I remain open to evidence of Bob and his house across the street if it ever shows up, but without evidence, my default setting is to refrain from assuming he’s there, just as I would if my neighbor had insisted that instead of Bob, there were leprechauns living across the street.

It’s not for lack of trying. It’s for lack of what I need. Some people believe without any evidence at all. Some people are simply not capable of that.

I hope this helps you to understand at least my experiences and those of atheists with a similar background. If you continue your very commendable open-hearted dialogue with us, you will also meet atheists here who fully, deeply and sincerely believed in Bob and his house, but later came to see that there’s just an empty lot.

Just enjoy being able to be real.

Ramen, brother! Ramen. Good advice all around, Richard.

Here’s the thing. I’m very outspoken and, er, passionate. I shoot from the hip and take no prisioners. I say what I think, including being an out Atheist. I am not a financial success and it pisses me off when people measure success by money. Rich or poor, you’re not a success unless you’ve made your peace with life and live it fully.

Since I’m outspoken, people tend to run either hot or cold with me. Few who know me are in between. They either love me or they hate me. I’m fine with this because I am admired or rejected for what I am.

But even those who hate me tend to be impressed with the way I live life honestly and with scruplous morals. I’m admired by many for protecting my daughter from her abusive father and that has caused me to be greatly poorer (thousands of dollars a year poorer) for the rest of my life. Even those who are angered by my outspoken disregard for god. Others can’t get past that or the single mother thing. I’ve actually had one coworker for years who’d say wouldn’t you take him back if he changed. Um, that’s just freaking nuts. Take someone back if he came back and claimed to no longer be a perv? You kidding me? Okay, so she wasn’t the brightest bulb in the box.

Here’s the thing. I’ve been an out Atheist for 24 years and was an out Agnostic for four years before that (before my daughter was born). I’ve been demonstrably happy but human. I err. We all fuck up big time as I did when I married that wolf in sheep’s clothing and had a baby with him. Sometimes I’m mistaken for a pestimist because I say so when I see something wrong but the truth is I’m really an optimist who believes what’s wrong can be changed and life is really good overall. If I didn’t think things could be changed for the better, why would I bother speaking up when they’re wrong?

I’ve had Christians who have made me feel like I shouldn’t have come out but that feeling passes. For every one of them who has crossed my life, I probably have 10 others who have been given an example that you can be strong and moral without god. I don’t think even those who have vehemently hated me have ever mistaken me for weak and most have grudingly allowed that I work hard, do a good job and live a moral life.

So, no, I’m not a financial success. Far from it. I’m still, at 52, living in cheap apartments. But I’m not often called a loser and the reason is because I obviously live life on my terms even if you hate me for it. I’m happier and stronger than average. And speak openly when I hear someone make some silly claim like Christians make better parents (ask my daughter, she’ll tell you) or Atheists lie. I revere truth to a fault; that’s why I rub many the wrong way.

So am I a success? I think so. I’m poor but I’m successful in ways some of the rich never will be. I haven’t compromised my principals for the sake of a bank account or a house on the hill. I didn’t look the other way while my daughter was abused because it would have profited me to do so. Love me or hate me, I fuck with that stereotype of Atheists just by being out. So even the ones who hate me because they have the Christian ideals of women being submissive to men and a single mother drives them buggy or because I spit in the eye of faith and never back up are, on some level, mentally challenged to deal with it.

I am proud to be out. I am proud that credit for being strong doesn’t go to god. If I had a dollar for every time I’ve been asked where did I get my strength, even if it were just those who ask where I get it without god, I would be rich even though I’ve answered forthrightly from knowing and doing what’s right, not being afraid to determine that for myself and holding true to it. From looking for the truth in everything and not letting others tell me what to be or not to be.

I was sucidal when I was Christian. When I lost faith, reality made me strong. I have learned how much I can handle and, frankly, that is anything that comes my way.

Being out has made all the difference in my life but only you can decide if it is right for you and if you are strong enough. Because you will have to stand up and defend what you are if you are out. Be prepared.

I politely tell my next door neighbor that all I see is a vacant lot. He gives me a book about Bob and I read it. I look at the book and look at the vacant lot, and no matter how hard I try I don’t see Bob or his house. I even walk around that empty lot, but there’s nothing but dust and weeds.

and Richard… Bob is your father.

Thank you, Deanna. You are very gracious.

And remember, Love loves you whether you believe in Him…or not.

Actually, your holy book says that were are condemned to eternal torture for not believing. Or merely death, depending on the quote in question.

You may not believe that, but if you have moved away from such rigid doctrine to merely “god is love”, you have already left much of mainstream Christian theology behind. It’s not much different from any other kind of general, undefined spirituality.

Another depressed unsuccessful atheist here. And the embarrassing thing is that I actually came to my atheism because of bad events in my life. I hated god for all the terrible things he had done to me even though I still believed in him. I even considered myself a satanist for some time and regularly told “blasphemy prayers” in which I just called him every bad name I could imagine, desecrated crucifixes and did the things forbidden in the bible to piss him off. At the same time I was very afraid because I knew I was going to hell now, so I started to wish there was no god. And as I was reading all the atheist arguments to rationalize my wishful thinking, I got it. I understood that by such an accident I have actually stumbled upon the truth.
My family thinks that my mental illness stuff is actually a demon possession and don’t even take me seriously because of it. And I can’t even be honest with some atheists about my deconversion story… because well, it’s such a shame to exactly reflect the worst stereotypes they are fighting against.

@ Donna…Love isn’t about taking credit or giving credit. It stands alone. Though I give all credit to anyone willing to give it or receive it. The willingness is the most difficult task.
@ Nicole…there are jerks who believe in God (I know a few…and confess that I have been one myself!) Don’t be so hard on yourself just be who you want to be. Something I try to remind myself frequently of is…kindness doesn’t cost me anything. Being a jerk causes alot of unnecessary guilt. Peace to you!

I don’t think anyone owes their outing to anyone else, or to any common cause. If coming out is in your own best self interest, if the advantages outweigh the drawbacks, then do it. Then if that happens to contribute to the overall acceptance and normalization of atheism, great, but it should be for your benefit first.

Bravo! And here I thought I was the only one who thought so! (Or thought that we were allowed to say this out loud.)

The RDF’s Scarlet A should have an asterick on it, and right below the scarlet A should be the asterick’s explanation in Richard Wade’s words.

I’m not quite sure how you came to think that most atheists think people have some obligation to come out.

@Jeff P: Actually, Jeff, I don’t think that at all. I think most atheists do not think that atheists have any obligation to out themselves at all, since most atheists are in fact closeted themselves, and I doubt they are struggling internally about their decision to remain in the closet. (Their actions betray what they really believe.)

It’s the activist atheists – the ones who participate in various atheist organizations – who erroneously seem to think we atheists have some obligation ‘the cause’. It is they who seem to (immorally, IMO) encourage atheists to out themselves come what may for their personal lives. So to see Richard Wade openly ‘defying’ them is pretty encouraging to me. (Not that long ago Hemant was saying that most of us can agree on the need for people to out themselves. Evidently not.)

I think this idea that we must sacrifice our own well-being for ‘the cause’ is typical behavior for activists – probably the same is true for activist feminists versus everyday women who just want their equal pay as men for the same work. So I don’t think activist atheists are any different than any other activists. But the activists do have their own ideological agendas, and in pursuit of those ends they pretend to represent all or most nonbelievers. In reality, I think that they represent only a small fringe of nonbelievers – probably less than 10% of them – though I have no way to really gauge that. That would explain part of the reason why there are millions of American atheists but only tens of thousands of members of atheist organizations at best.

Dunefish,

And I can’t even be honest with some atheists about my deconversion story… because well, it’s such a shame to exactly reflect the worst stereotypes they are fighting against.

I’m okay with you, and I’m sure many other atheists are as well. People’s journeys to free thinking vary from the horrendously difficult to the completely effortless, but each one is a human’s journey. No one should expect every single step to be perfectly wise, perfectly logical, or for perfect motives. One way or another, you got to this point. We’re glad to see you!

Concentrate on doing the daily things that relieve your depression, and getting whatever professional help will give you a leg up. Despite the loony things your family believes about your mental illness stuff, you have friends and potential friends who understand and care. Find them and nurture their friendships.

Depression lies to you, telling you that you can never defeat it. Don’t believe it. Fight back!

@ Jeff…I’m all for loving as much as we can in this life no matter what your beliefs are. So I am so happy to meet you on common ground there!! Regarding Christian theology…you really can’t put us all in one basket. There are so many divisions within Christianity itself. And really, Jesus’ teaching was only of love. He really threw out a lot of what was written about God in the Old Testament. He never harmed nor judged anyone. I just talked to a very devout Catholic friend of mine today and told her how you guys feel so discriminated against. She said “Really?? If that’s the case, then we Chrisitans aren’t doing a good enough job in spreading the message of God’s love!” Those are the Christians I am friends with. And there are MANY of us! We love y’all no matter what!