Florida Atheists Told To Change Shirts Or Leave City Council Meeting

Recently, the Atheists of Florida decided to protest the Cape Coral City Council’s proposal to have invocations before meetings as well as putting up a Ten Commandments display in City Hall. They protested by making speeches and wearing shirts reading, “One Nation, Indivisible” on a flag background:

AoF member Christine Richards said this about the invocation prayers at a council meeting a couple weeks ago:

The functional effect of these prayer rituals is that they provide Americans like me only two options and both impinge on my Freedom of Speech in an unconstitutional way.

One option is that I can stand and PRETEND TO PRAY to keep from looking like a religious outsider. This symbolically communicates to all that I am religious, something that is not true and something that I really do not want to convey.

The second option is that I REMAIN SEATED. This symbolically communicates to all that I am a religious outsider, something that I may NOT want to convey either.

As you can see, for me as an atheist, neither is a good choice as both options force me to symbolically say something about myself that I may not wish to convey. By conducting your government prayer ritual, you force me, a citizen coming to your meeting to discuss business, to first engage in symbolic speech about my religious orientation and that is blatantly unconstitutional.

So when the atheists made plans to show up again to the city council meeting earlier this week, the council had an ultimatum for them:

Cape Coral City officials warned Atheists of Florida members attending the December 13th city council meeting to either cover-up the message on their shirts or be ejected from council chambers…

The atheists were attending the Monday evening meeting to voice their concern about Resolution 51-10, which included instructions about conducting prayer invocations as part of the council’s meeting protocol.

The atheists were threatened with ejection for their shirts… Why?

Councilman McClain says part of the reason the atheist group was asked to change was because on their first visit, they wore the same shirts, and some people watching from home told the councilman they were offended.

Offended! By this shirt?!

Crazy. The ever-so-fragile sensibilities of anonymous viewers vs. following the law… this should be a hard decision. Not to mention how the atheists broke no rules with their protest.

After the threat of ejection and police force, there was at least a somewhat happy ending:

During the mid-meeting break, Cape Coral Mayor, John Sullivan, and city manager, Gary King, reiterated their demands for members to replace or cover up the shirts. King indicated that the shirts were in violation of council policy. He further warned that if the shirts were still visible, anyone wearing the attire would be asked to leave and if necessary, Cape Coral police would be employed to enforce the demand. [AoF president John] Kieffer asked to see the policy and was told that this could not be done at the time. Kieffer responded that he would refuse to comply and would accept the consequences. A few minutes later, King informed Kieffer that he believed that the shirts “should be okay.”

Looks like the atheists won this round. It’s still disturbing, though, that claiming “offense” is a valid way to get the council’s attention. But if it’s works, let’s use it to our advantage: I’m offended by Resolution 51-10 (PDF), the main reason for the protest.

It mentions a few examples of invocations that ought to be read aloud, like this one:

That’s supposed to be an inclusive prayer…?

There’s no reason to recite that before meetings. Council members are free to pray on their own time. They don’t need to waste taxpayer-funded time, on government property, talking to their god.

(Thanks to Daniel for the link!)

  • http://alliedatheistalliance.blogspot.com/ pinkocommie

    Wow. How utterly petty.

  • Dan

    Public prayer also violates Matthew 6:5-7, which clearly instructs Christians to pray privately, in a closet.

  • http://shadowgm.diaryland.com Bob

    Really, if all that stands between councilmembers and incompetence is the invocation of an invisible sky-friend … the only thing it proves is that the councilmembers are incompetent.

    This is supposed to be civic leadership, not magic ritual.

  • JoshBA

    I am guessing that “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all” being the way Bellamy originally wrote the damn thing doesn’t make a bit of difference to these people?

    I must say that I quite like the original even if coercing children to take a loyalty oath is extremely creepy.

  • http://hoverfrog.wordpress.com hoverfrog

    They should use Matthew 6:5 on a new set of shirts. Not only are they going against the Constition but they are going against the words of Jesus. Aren’t these Christians supposed to be following the words of Jesus?

  • Bob

    I am reminded of the social experiment/game where the classroom is split into groups. Each group can vote RED or GREEN; if all groups vote green, they gain 10 points. If all groups vote red, they lose 20 points. If only one group votes red, while the others vote green, the red group wins 50 points.

    I wonder if the experiment could be presented so as to show that prayer does not inoculate one against selfishness/greed and the desire to screw over one’s neighbor.

  • Richard Wade

    Kieffer asked to see the policy and was told that this could not be done at the time. Kieffer responded that he would refuse to comply and would accept the consequences. A few minutes later, King informed Kieffer that he believed that the shirts “should be okay.”

    Kieffer called their bluff, and they folded. King is nothing but a cowardly bully. He knew he’d get a nice fat lawsuit that would cost the city a fortune, and he would deserve it.

    Suing city councils for this kind of crap is going to become another specialty for lawyers, like accidents, divorces, or wills and trusts. Lots of money to be had. It’ll stimulate the economy.

  • JD

    That’s not inclusive unless you’re neglecting to mention that it’s only intended to be inclusive of the different sects of Christianity. Polytheists are out, and Judaism is probably out and probably the same for Islam too, though I imagine there’s no love lost on the part of the council with regard to Islam.

  • BeamStalk

    Richard, you beat me to it. I would have refused also and demanded that they escort me out, because I would have sued the city right after it happened. This is Christian Authoritarianism at its finest.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000586562927 Donna Hamel (muggle)

    I think it was a bluff too, Richard. Where’s even the evidence that someone “viewing from home” even called and complained. Sounds like the prig pulled it out of his ass. More lying for Jesus.

    However, even if he was honest, Hemant’s right. If offense is all it takes to have something removed from council meetings, how come prayer wasn’t when the Atheists took offense?

    I smell a biased rat.

  • Hamilton Jacobi

    Frankly, I’d like to see them follow through on their threat of police enforcement. That would officially make this a legal matter, and they’re bound to get hammered by the courts. A few costly lawsuits would set a very nice example for other local governments all around the country.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000586562927 Donna Hamel (muggle)

    Also, where can I get this nice t-shirt only perhaps changing Florida to America?

    If anyone’s listening from the Florida group and wants to do some funding raising, I’d buy one that read Atheists of America. No American Atheists, however, since I don’t belong to that group.

  • http://theehtheist.blogspot.com The “Eh”theist

    Puts me in mind of the courtroom dress code in “My Cousin Vinny,” give an individual a bit of power and suddenly their whims become “the rules.”

    Using Matt. 6:5 also seems like an interesting idea so long as it’s simply presented to show their lack of continuity in their position, rather than as some sort of “authority”.

  • Peter

    If someone wore a t-shirt that said “I love Jesus. Florida Church of Christ” and an atheist watching the video from home said they were offended, would the town council have asked the christian to cover up the shirt or be removed???

    Clearly the town council is trying to impose THEIR religion onto the citizens of their town.

    If you don’t agree with their superstitions, you have to hide your views in their presence or else they will have the cops forcibly take you away.

  • http://zeppmusic.com ZEPP

    I realize it wasn’t in vogue to make or wear T-shirts with messages back then, but I wonder what would happen if one were to wear a “vintage” shirt from, say, 1953? Would the exact same message thereby become “acceptable?”

  • http://twitter.com/achura Rooker

    First they refuse to obey the US Constitution and now they are offended by the US Pledge of Allegiance? Just what do these people have against America anyway?

  • Phoebe

    Seems like a lot of Christians are always angry and offended if everyone isn’t at least pretending to believe exactly what they do.

    They seem to have an impossible time of even understanding the concept of being all-inclusive.

    It’s REALLY PATHETIC that they can’t understand that public meetings need to be secular, because secular is by definition “all-inclusive” and because affirming every single person’s beliefs at every public meeting would be ridiculous.

    Christians are free to pray at home and in Church, and really anywhere, on their own time. Why must they force it on everyone during a public meeting?? And threaten to throw people out and call the police. What a bunch of bullies. Disgusting behaviour.

    YAY for Kieffer for standing his ground and not letting the bullies scare him off! :)

  • http://www.kingsworldofmarble.com alexandra

    strange is, that there is NO prayer allowed in schools, but in city hall it is a daily practice. Practice your personal beliefs in your own time. Not on my dime

  • http://eternalbookshelf.wordpress.com Sharmin

    I do not understand how in the world a person could think that the shirts are offensive but that forcing people to pray isn’t offensive.

    Then again, I never really liked group prayers. Even when I was religious, I found it more meaningful to pray on my own.

  • Lost Left Coaster

    Well done Atheists of Florida! Great job calling their bluff — they certainly handled the situation perfectly by refusing to comply with that utterly nonsensical request.

  • cinomalon

    The atheists are revolting…yeess!

  • Johan Stuyts

    Man, it happens everywhere in America. Is this a true tradtition going back hundreds of years and have protests against it just begun, or have secularists paid less attention in the past so these violations could slip through?

  • stogoe

    A big part is the internet. It’s easy to shame and bully the town atheist into silence when she thinks she’s the only one. All of a sudden, you let those weirdos find each other via instantaneous worldwide communication, and they’re not just one person any more – they’re a movement.

  • littlejohn

    It’s an absolutely safe bet these maroons are completely unaware that “under God” wasn’t in the original pledge, which was written, by the way, by a minister.
    “Under God” was meant to be patriotic, not religious. It was added during the Eisenhower administration at the height of the cold war. If you’re at least my age (56), you may remember when communism was always referred to as “godless communism.”
    It was a jab at the Soviet Union, not American atheists.

  • Mac

    Good for the atheist group! They trumped the bully position that their entirely appropriate, politically permissible attire was “against policy”.

    Critical thinking; don’t leave home without it!

  • Jada

    Is there an Atheist grroup in South Florida? After all, this is not the thinking state.

  • Richard P.

    After what just happened in Forth Worth, I would say the US in in a running leap to embrace the UNs blasphemy laws.

    Wahoo!! USA seems your not only becoming third world country, your on the road back to the bronze age too.

  • Mac

    [@littlejohn: "“Under God” was meant to be patriotic, not religious. It was added during the Eisenhower administration at the height of the cold war. ... It was a jab at the Soviet Union, not American atheists."

    Maybe so, but America...and all other...atheists were held in complete contempt at that time, too. The phrase was added in order to promote the idea that only God(and Tailgunner Joe)stood between America and a subversive Communism. Despite the fact that the American public swallowed that hysterical bullpuckey for a few years, it's to their credit that they finally recognized the fallacy and relegated McCarthy to a well-deserved obscurity lasting to his death in 1957.

    We don't need gods to determine our political fates. We...and by that I mean some of us... only need them to provide some kind of weirdly unquestionable rationale for the latter. That theological explanations have NEVER seemed to work very well seems to be somehow overlooked by the faithful.

    My challenge is that those who promote religions as pivotal frameworks for human culture, precepts and paradigms should really offer some kind of logical justification for their particular appeals.

    Anybody gotny?

  • http://everydayatheist.wordpress.com Everyday Atheist

    I would love to know if the town’s lawyer was in the meeting, and quietly whispered in the mayor’s ear, “Are you trying to get us sued, you idiot?”

  • http://aboutkitty.blogspot.com/ Cat’s Staff

    There was a man arrested for wearing a jacket with “F- the draft” (with F- spelled out) on his jacket. He won on the basis that it was protected political speech.

    http://legallad.quickanddirtytips.com/flip-the-bird.aspx

    In the future someone could were a shirt that said “F- the Prayer” or something similar. As long as they never speak the words to someone in a way that is intended to provoke a violent reaction (fighting words) they will be covered. They can tell the council that if they don’t like them the remedy is to stop the prayers.

  • JSavek

    This is incomprehensible to me. Those shirts didn’t say anything remotely offensive to anyone, Christian or otherwise.

    I have to agree with Phoebe’s comment above: “Seems like a lot of Christians are always angry and offended if everyone isn’t at least pretending to believe exactly what they do.”

    I am getting particularly weary of Christians pretending to be all persecuted in this country. Try being atheist for one frickin day! I can’t even have secular MONEY for God’s sake.

  • george

    They don’t understand why some of the things they do are offensive, so they think it’s a purely subjective thing. That you can just declare that something is offensive *to you* if you don’t like it.

  • pansies4me

    I applaud these men. I only wish I was so brave.
    I went to a Township Trustee meeting a few years back and had to sit through a prayer. I was brave enough not to stand for the Pledge, but I admit the place was packed so it probably went unnoticed. I wrote a letter to one of the Trustees that said in part that even if the prayer was technically legal, it had the effect of making me feel like an outsider because I am an atheist. Even appealing to their sense of common human decency had no effect. It’s as if some theists are actually happy to make you feel that way. And I’m the one that supposedly has no moral compass. Dickheads.

  • noxidereus

    This is ridiculous! The city attempted to justify their violation of citizens’ free speech rights by further violating citizens’ free speech rights? If this is not an excellent example of how this god/religion business gives people an excuse to defy common reasoning and trample our rights I don’t know what is. The ignorance demonstrated by the elected city officials (and the people who voted for them) depresses me. Idiocracy here we come! Are we there yet?

  • Alverant

    Not to be the proverbial fly in the ointment, but has anyone worn pro-christian t-shirts to city council meetings? It so, it would definitely show the double-standard. If not, the council could argue that t-shirts period should not be allowed.

  • P. Coyle

    “Under God” was meant to be patriotic, not religious. It was added during the Eisenhower administration at the height of the cold war. … It was a jab at the Soviet Union, not American atheists.

    Absolutely wrong. The purpose of including the words “under God” in the Pledge was, and is, to make the symbolic statement that one needs to believe in God in order to be a good American. This is why those shirts are so bloody brilliant: They make the symbolic statement that one does NOT need to believe in God to be a good American. And that, of course, is precisely what the people on the Cape Coral city council find so objectionable.

    The organization that took the lead in getting “under God” added to the Pledge, and which still takes the lead in defending the Pledge in that form, is the Knights of Columbus, the Catholic service organization. I find it distinctly odd that a Catholic group would want to get involved in any effort to define who is and who is not a “good American” based on their religious beliefs or lack thereof. Throughout much of the history of the U.S. it was argued, by Protestants, that one could not be good American and a Catholic at the same time. After all, we all know that Catholics give their primary allegiance to a foreign leader (the Pope) and not to the U.S. – don’t we?

  • Ryan

    I find it funny that the comments from Christine Richards state they do not want to implicitly or explicitly convey their religious stance yet wear shirts to a protest that clearly state they belong to an atheist group. I’m against the introductory prayer but find the groups position semi-paradoxical.

    I DON’T WANT YOU TO KNOW WHAT GOD I DO OR DON’T BELIEVE IN BUT I WILL ATTEND A PROTEST AND TELL YOU I DON’T BELIEVE IN ANY GOD.

    Yeah, okay.

  • http://theworlds-writenow.blogspot.com/ Keith

    It’s disgusting but that’s the sort of world we live in. This only happened to me one time. I was at a large meeting of human rights workers and they told us to stand in a circle and some idiot priest started praying. Ugh.

    Then they went around the room so we could introduce ourselves. When it came to me, I said my name and said I was utterly disgusted that a prayer was said in my name. I didn’t sign up for that. And I looked directly at the priest and said, “You disgust me!”

    I like to be direct. No one came over to commiserate with me about it afterward. It was like I never said a thing.

  • Jinx McHue

    Welcome to the America YOU created. Offended by a teacher’s cross necklace? Force her to remove it! Offended by prayer in school? Force kids to stop praying! Offended by a student with a pro-life t-shirt? Force him to remove it! Offended by a Christmas tree in a state capitol building? Force them to remove it!

  • Jinx McHue

    Alverant:

    “Not to be the proverbial fly in the ointment, but has anyone worn pro-christian t-shirts to city council meetings?”

    No. You see, unlike atheists, Christians don’t need to wear their beliefs on their sleeves (to modify the idiom).

  • Danielle

    @Jinx: The student wearing a pro-life shirt is fine. The teacher, school, and state capitol building are all government employees/buildings and cannot put one/any religion on a pedestal.

    The student is allowed to because she’s not a government employee.

    Just like how the people in that council meeting are allowed to wear that shirt. The people aren’t government employees, they are allowed to protest.

  • emau99

    @ Jinx McHue

    Offended by a teacher’s cross necklace? Force her to remove it! Offended by prayer in school? Force kids to stop praying! Offended by a student with a pro-life t-shirt? Force him to remove it!

    Do you have any specific examples of these things happening, or are they hypotheticals?

    Offended by a Christmas tree in a state capitol building? Force them to remove it!

    Maybe I will. ;)

    You see, unlike atheists, Christians don’t need to wear their beliefs on their sleeves

    If that’s the case, then why do you care about any of the examples you’ve cited?

  • Rorschach

    Ryan, the point is that whether a person expresses their faith during a protest or not is HER choice. In contrast, when the council opts to open with a prayer, they are effectively forcing her to make a statement regarding her belief.

    And Jinx, cram it in your cramhole, okay? No atheist I know objects to an individual’s free expression of her rights. What we object to is our government singling out a specific belief system and giving it special favor. If you want prayer, there are plenty of other places for you to have it that don’t force it on anybody else.

  • pansies4me

    Oh geez that old canard about kids not being able to pray in school. A child may pray in school, but a teacher or any school employees may not lead the students in prayer. As public schools are funded by taxpayers, which include atheists and faiths other than Xianity, the First Amendment dictates that you can’t have your effin’ faith shoved down children’s throats. Those children may have parents who don’t subscribe to your religious views. Why are you such a bully, Jinx?

    You don’t need to wear your faith on your sleeve, eh? Fortunately not all do, but you apparently want yours on a great big banner that says I AM A CHRISTIAN AND IF YOU DON’T AGREE WITH ME TOUGH SHIT I’LL GET THE GOVERNMENT TO GIVE ME PRIVILEGE ABOVE ALL OTHERS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I’M A CHRISTIAN AND I’M BETTER THAN YOU. We’re on to your agenda.

  • http://alliedatheistalliance.blogspot.com/ pinkocommie

    No. You see, unlike atheists, Christians don’t need to wear their beliefs on their sleeves (to modify the idiom).

    No they don’t. Why? Because if you’re an American all you have to do is open your wallet and look at your money, turn on the TV and flip through channels for a few minutes, go outside and take a walk down the street in any direction for 20 minutes – five will get you ten, you’ve already been bombarded by an overwhelming amount of christian imagery. So no, they certainly have no reason to feel compelled to wear their beliefs on their sleeves – they’re surrounded by their beliefs no matter where they are or what they do, save wander into a humanist meet-up. And even then, the last one of those I went to was held at a church.

    Also, I think it’s a mistake to ignore or forget the fact that a huge amount of christians DO choose to wear christian clothing and jewelry – something they ought to be able to do without getting hassled by anyone else.

  • http://www.youtube.com/aajoeyjo Joe Zamecki

    Picket!!

  • epe

    Wait, offended by the quote, or offended that there are atheists of florida?

  • Aquaria

    No. You see, unlike atheists, Christians don’t need to wear their beliefs on their sleeves (to modify the idiom).

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Oh my–this is brilliant satire.

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

    Wait… You’re serious?

    :::Backs away slowly from the crazy person::::

  • http://www.twitter.com/WCLPeter WCLPeter

    hoverfrog said:

    They should use Matthew 6:5 on a new set of shirts.

    I was going to suggest the same thing. Keep everything the same but instead of “One Nation, Indivisible” written over the American Flag put “Matthew 6:5-7″.

    Then have a handful of atheists give their usual speeches / comments about how having a prayer, or the the thingly disguised “moment of silence” psuedo prayer, is an affront to the constituation and deliberately excludes people of differing faiths or no faiths at all.

    But then, at the end, have the final person say something like this:

    Ladies and Gentlemen of the council, we are asking you to do the right thing and obey the laws regarding the establishment of religion as outlined in the founding document of our nation.

    We are not telling you cannot pray to your deity of choice, that is your personal right. What we are telling you is you cannot, as our duly elected public officials in your official capacity, promote your personal religious beliefs as an extension of this office in opposition of the many different beliefs shared by the citizens of Florida.

    Ladies and Gentlemen of the council I will be the last speaker from Florida Atheists tonight but before I go I would like to leave you with these words, taken from Matthew Chapter 6, Verses 5 through 7.

    “And Jesus said when you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get. When you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you. When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again.”

    Councillors, you have an opportunity to not only confirm your faith but to also reaffirm the principles of the Constitution the guarantee of religious freedom free of government endorsement or influence that America was founded on.

    I’m not a very good speech writer, so feel free to take it and modify as required. But I think something like this could work, as long as you had someone charismatic and capable of delivering it in a respectful tone.

    Sure, its risky to call them out on the whole “be a good Christian” thing but I don’t think its too unreasonable to ask “Good Christians” to also be “Good Americans” and respect the rules laid out in the establishment clause with respect to religion and how the state can’t endorse one.

    Pete…

    PS: I’m Canadian and I am always shocked I know more about how America was founded, and why the establishment clause with respect to religion is so important, than a seemingly large number of Americans do.

  • http://hoverfrog.wordpress.com hoverfrog

    WCLPeter, that’s a fine speech.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000586562927 Donna Hamel (muggle)

    It’s as if some theists are actually happy to make you feel that way.

    I know. They almost seem to gloat, don’t they?

    Ryan, the point is that whether a person expresses their faith during a protest or not is HER choice. In contrast, when the council opts to open with a prayer, they are effectively forcing her to make a statement regarding her belief.

    I disagree. When a person comes out to protest, they should not be put on the spot with the assumption of prayer and religious songs being okay as part of the protest. I’m with Ryan and have also complained about such happening and have been likewise ignored. It has discouraged my going to protests, especially as I’m disabled so it takes tremendous effort on my part to go. They should care about that because numbers count when protesting.

    Jinx, what are you 12? I thought everyone knew that government employees can wear cross necklaces on the job. A public school can’t hang a cross but a teacher can wear one and, locally, we just had a student win a right to wear a rosary. School had tried to ban over a certain size because gangs were using them and they had a gang problem. Kid won the right in court. The difference is the teacher wearing a cross necklace is just following their religion and making a personal statement; school hanging a cross is endorsing as a government entity.

    Geeze at least give it a quick google before you spout off ignorantly:

    May teachers wear religious symbols or clothing to school?

    Some courts have held that state statutes restricting teachers from wearing certain clothing are constitutional. These statutes are justified in order to preserve an atmosphere of religious neutrality and prevent an appearance of endorsement of religion in public schools. However, even under such statutes, teachers are permitted to wear decoration such as necklaces bearing crosses or Stars of David, which some courts regarded as religiously “ambiguous.” [emphasis mine] Without such a statute, a teacher’s religious garb may still violate the prohibition on government endorsement of religion and should still be banned

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  • Arlo

    I really don’t get this whole “I’m offended” thing. Being offended says more about the person saying that, than the person doing the supposedly offensive stuff.

    And what it says about the person being offended is that they are insecure about their beliefs.

    Being offended is for insecure people.

  • Pingback: Free speech for them. For us? Not so much. « Blue Lyon

  • Buzz Windrip

    “You see, unlike atheists, Christians don’t need to wear their beliefs on their sleeves.”

    Maybe not.

    But Jesus is very well represented on car bumpers.

  • SecularLez

    So because ONE PERSON was offended they can’t wear a t-shirt?
    What about freedom of speech?
    What about the people who are OFFENDED by the council’s prayer? I guess these people’s sensibilities don’t matter.

    Just keep your prayer to yourself. The people didn’t elect you to pray, they elected you to conduct city business. Nothing more, nothing less.

    At my city’s council meeting they did pray and I just sat. One woman just couldn’t believe that I stayed sitting. She also couldn’t believe I had the “audacity” to question if a local church was given special treatment by the city for an event they held, as if someone was NOT supposed to have a problem with that.

  • http://thecusp.org.nz vIQles

    Next time:

    Wear the same t-shirts, but when asked to removed them, take them off to reveal the new slogan – “Fuck your God” – with an image of a demon skull-fucking Jesus on the cross. (Or choose your own super-offensive image / wording.)

    :-D

  • Jeri

    I think the shirts should say:
    “One Nation, DEVIDED by god.”
    because it’s blatently false that we are indivisable, especially when god is concerned.

  • http://hoverfrog.wordpress.com hoverFrog

    So just to clarify: It is now offensive to not say something about gods? Does that mean that Christians would be apoplectic with rage if GOD disappeared from your money?

  • http://www.atheistsofflorida.org EllenBeth Wachs

    The group went back down last night and John Kieffer actually got ejected last night by 2 cops.
    http://www.fox4now.com/global/story.asp?s=13900723

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