What a War on Christmas Really Looks Like

To Bill Donohue, Bill O’Reilly, and everyone else at Fox News Channel:

There is no War on Christmas. This ad, no matter what you think it does, does not threaten Christmas or Christians:

The next story, however, is what a War on Christmas really would look like, and it’s horrifying:

On December 18, Hindu fundamentalists beat two dozen carolers, including young women, and took them to the police station in a Mumbai suburb, charging that by singing Christmas carols they had insulted Hindus…

“These attacks look sporadic and isolated. But there is a clear pattern and strategy behind it. Maybe this is their way of greeting us for Christmas,” said Joseph Dais, secretary of the Catholic Secular Forum (CSF) of Mumbai. “Around Christmas and other major Christian festivities, we have noticed a sudden spurt in anti-Christian violence in recent years,” Dais told CWN. Further, he said that aim of this campaign is to instill fear in the Christians and please the (Hindu) fundamentalists at the same time.

That’s horrible and it should be condemned by everybody.

For what it’s worth, no atheist group in America is calling for any sort of violence against Christians. That’s obvious. But we’re also not calling for an end to Christmas.

All we ask for is that the principle of church/state separation be upheld even during this time of year. That means no nativity scenes on government property. That means not forgetting that non-Christians celebrate other occasions during these few weeks. That level of respect shouldn’t be too much to ask for.

(Thanks to Fred for the link)

  • http://www.meaningwithoutgodproject.blogspot.com Jeffrey A. Myers

    There is nothing Christians enjoy more than *feeling* persecuted without the inconvenience, unpleasantness and discomfort of *actual* persecution. It makes them feel closer to their zombie lord.

  • AnonymousCoward

    “Catholic secular forum” is an oxymoron.

    Interesting how Christians back secularism when they are in the minority.

  • Mike in FL

    Blanket statements about people you’ve never met don’t exactly help the dialogue between atheists and people of faith, Jeffrey.

    That said, this is something both sides should get behind stopping. Attacking an idea is one thing. Attacking a person and injuring them is something else.

  • Danny Wuvs Kittens

    Militant Christians-Crusaders, clinic bombers, doctor killers.

    Millitant Muslims-Osama, suicide bombers, WTC, jihadists

    Militant Atheists-Old men who write books and suggest that maybe nothing is supernatural and maybe religion is harmful, and people who have not nice bumper stickers and t shirts.

  • Somename

    No sources in the CatholicCulture website. A Google search reveals this:

    Three Christians beaten up in Worli

    Are these guys just making up stuff that never happened?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000586562927 Donna Hamel (muggle)

    That’s awful and I do condemn it.

    But if ever I own my own home (in an apartment, you don’t really have license to do this) and carolers disturb my peace and refuse to leave when I ask them to, I will call the police and file a complaint. Frankly, caroling is rude. And I’m glad I’ve never been caroled except at the mall etc.

    However, physically attacking carolers is going way overboard.

  • jolly

    Well Bill Donahue has an answer to that violence, the Christians should convert to Hinduism. Problem solved. Someone please ask Bill if he would agree.

  • http://n8chz.blogspot.com/ Lori

    The experience of being a religious minority group will bring out the secular side of anyone, including Catholics. And that is what secularity is really about, right?

  • MT

    This is horrible. They shouldn’t do something like this. It gives everyone like us a bad name. Unless it’s a bloody conspiracy theory. They -want- us to look bad by staging attacks. Okay, I watch too many movies.

    This is horrible either way.

  • http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-los-angeles/hugh-kramer Hugh Kramer

    Religion. It brings people together.

  • dartigen

    That is pretty awful. Don’t they have noise laws or something in Mumbai? Or, y’know, ASK them to leave? People are crazy, I am convinced.
    (I have called the police to have carolers removed before. It’s ok at 8pm but if you come around at 6 in the morning and disturb me and my dog, I WILL kick you off my lawn.)

  • http://hoverfrog.wordpress.com hoverFrog

    See how faith is such a force for peace on Earth and good will. God bless us, every one!

    /sarcasm

  • NaburoManyNames

    In Asia, Christianity are on the forefront for liberal issues, Unless its South Korea or Philippines, targeting the rich and poor. Crazy isnt it?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000586562927 Donna Hamel (muggle)

    dartigen, even in an apartment, if I got it at 6am, I’d call the freaking police!

    lol, hoverfrog. Sometimes sarcasm says it all so nicely.

  • SeekerLancer

    And yet they’ll still equate harmless billboards to actions like this so that they can feel attacked and persecuted in the safety of Western civilization.

  • http://www.knowledgeisnotveryfar.blogspot.com Jake

    Respect? Do you meant they type of “respect” that most atheist groups show Christians? The kind of “respect” that includes ridicule and insults like the drivel from the FFRF. If you want respect, earn it. And actually show you are capable of giving respect in return, which atheists groups demonstrate time and time again they are not capable of.

  • http://n8chz.blogspot.com/ Lori

    Love the sinner; hate the sin.

    Love the believer; hate the belief system.

    Sounds fair to me.

    I myself am opposed in principle to ridicule-based humor (having been ridiculed mercilessly during my own existence). I never perceived FFRF rhetoric as particularly derisive, but I suppose it’s a question of whose ox gets gored. Sometimes non-riducule takes effort, even for a gentle emergent such as myself. As Robert A. Heinlein wrote: One man’s religion is another man’s belly laugh.

  • http://www.preposteroustwaddlecock.blogspot.com Ray Garton

    Jake — For a long, long time, nonbelievers have remained silent. We’ve been shamed into silence by Christians who believe anyone who isn’t a Christian is wrong, immoral, a bad person. For a long, long time, we’ve been silent as televangelists and right-wing talk show hosts have demonized anyone who does not believe in their god. For a long, long time, we’ve been silent as Christians have condemned people openly, loudly, viciously and without apology for their sexuality, their politics, their lifestyles, the music they listen to, the books they read. For a long, long time, we have remained silent while Christians have disrupted our mornings by coming to our front doors again and again and again to tell us that unless we accept what they’re offering, we are not whole or complete and will never find happiness. For a long, long time, we have remained silent while Christians have equated the belief in god with being a true American, meaning that if you don’t believe in god, you hate America.

    Now we’re starting to respond. That’s all. Just respond. And you have the gall to tell us we should earn your respect? Well, the truth is, a lot of us don’t want your respect. A lot of us have come to see that if you don’t respect us, we must be doing something right. So, you go ahead and whine and complain about how you’re being mistreated. The fact is that what you’re hearing now from nonbelievers is something you’ve worked very hard to earn for a long, long time.

    Chickens. They come home to roost.

  • http://www.knowledgeisnotveryfar.blogspot.com Jake

    Ray Garton: “For a long, long time, we’ve been silent as Christians have condemned people openly, loudly, viciously and without apology for their sexuality, their politics, their lifestyles, the music they listen to, the books they read. For a long, long time, we have remained silent while Christians have disrupted our mornings by coming to our front doors again and again and again to tell us that unless we accept what they’re offering, we are not whole or complete and will never find happiness. For a long, long time, we have remained silent while Christians have equated the belief in god with being a true American, meaning that if you don’t believe in god, you hate America.

    Now we’re starting to respond. That’s all. Just respond.”

    And your (atheists) response is to act exactly like the “right-wing” and “Christians” you condemn.

  • Skeptic7

    i’d like to see a War on Fox News!

  • http://www.preposteroustwaddlecock.blogspot Ray Garton

    Jake wrote: “And your (atheists) response is to act exactly like the ‘right-wing’ and ‘Christians’ you condemn.”

    Please give me specific examples of this — not opinions, but specific examples with links to back them up. Thank you.

  • Pingback: Catching up: War on Christmas « Cubik's Rube

  • Arencey

    Man you commenters are just a bunch of Christian bashers, so what if you havent done any acts of violence towards us yet? You still ridicule us for who we are, the way people like you insult our religion is wrong too. Live and let live, that means fuck off and don’t insult us.

    Anyways on topic, Christians publicly celebrating Christmas is not wrong, you don’t see us attacking jews for celebrating Haunicka do you? I swear some of you atheists are just scrooges, why you feel indimidated by our religion is beyond me, stop getting butt hurt because we convert people away from your theory, look at it from our point of view:

    IF the atheists are right, then when we die we all rot in the ground.

    If the Christians are right, then all who do not beleive in God are doomed to eternal suffering.

    Obviously the safe choice is to be A Christian, why would you feel obligated to convert people away from Christianity? It doesnt make sense, we’re just trying to save people. Think about it, all you foaming at the mouth Christian haters could be committing genocide by preaching your theory. If you want to be an atheist than fine, but there’s no reason to convince other people to be atheists with you and all this mocking and hostility towards Christians.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1062213232 Jennifer Lange

      As I was born Jewish, forced to go to Christian church, became atheist and am now agnostic, I must say that I’ve been nearly every mainstream religion that Christians have hated.  And hated they did.  I have been told nearly every year of my life that I am doomed to burn in hell because I didn’t believe in Jesus Christ. I had Christians paint swastikas outside of my house and carve them in my desks at school.  When the holidays rolled around, I was told “Merry Christmas!”  After (politely) explaining that I didn’t believe in Jesus, and that I celebrated Hanukkah,  I was met with leers and evil eyes.  When my Jewish mother died and Lutheran father remarried a Catholic, I was banned from celebrating Hanukkah.  Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, those carrying out the Salem Witch Trials, Slavers, Crusaders, the Inquisitors of the Spanish Inquisition, the missionaries who all but decimated the Native American population had one thing in common: Christianity.  Christianity is not a live and let live religion, and it never has been. 

      It is rare that Christians convert Atheists; rather, it is often the other way around, because most people who aren’t indoctrinated enjoy a healthy thirst for knowledge, evidence, and fact.  This cannot be found in nearly any organized religion, much less Christianity.  It’s certainly not found in the belief that Christmas is a Christian holiday, as anyone with the most meager historical knowledge of the day can tell you.  It is a mishmash of religions that have been followed through the ages, and all we are asking is that it be respected as such. 

      IF Atheists are right, then when we die, our bodies and energy rejoin the universe for as long as the universe is around.  Our daily connections are truly meaningful and special, as we are taught to be grateful for everything we have.  We cannot squander the life that is given us, nor the lives we encounter, in the hopes that there is something afterwards.  It is difficult to think of something more beautiful and gracious.

      IF Christians are right, most people are going to hell after a single attempt at life, because they have judged others while being full of sin themselves.  Many claim a belief in Jesus as their savior for selfish reasons, and do not lead lives according to Christ’s teachings.  They are public Christians, private hypocrites.  Most of the time, they do not even know what their Bible says.  If they did, they would realize that their God gave them life in order to squander it, and that their deity acts like a spoiled toddler, acting out when not his exact whims are catered to.

      IF Hindus, some Buddhists, and many other Eastern religions are right, then an individual soul or consciousness in reincarnated, either as another human or a different type of life form, until finally one has learned all that is possible.  Only after that are they allowed to reside with their deities.

      IF many tribal religions are correct,  our souls stay in this realm with our ancestors as guides for those who reside on the Earth now.

      I’m not quite sure why you think that a person has to be either atheist or Christian, but honestly, if I had to choose one religion that is the least desirable and the least safe, Christianity would be it.  Doom and gloom indeed.  You aren’t saving other people; you are only trying to save yourself.  And the way you decide to celebrate Christmas every year, forcing your views on everyone else, reveals just how selfish and closed-minded you really are.

  • http://hoverfrog.wordpress.com hoverfrog

    Pascal’s Wager? Really?

  • ACN

    oh oh oh a drive-by troll!


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