Why Am I Still Vegetarian?

I was a vegetarian at two different periods in my life. I have since gone back to meat-eating, but my spouse and I buy grass-fed beef from a low-environmental-impact farmer. We have also bought local free-range chickens in the past. And we can buy locally humanely raised pork as well. We used to be very anti-hunting, but living out in a rural area overrun with deer as we do, we’ve changed our minds a little. The deer are terribly destructive of gardens and orchards, and we no longer think hunting is all that bad. Deer-car accidents are all too common here–one of my husband’s relatives actually had a deer ENTER the car, very dangerous for all concerned. We have not bagged any deer ourselves, but I’m not as opposed as I once was. I have a little better understanding of the mindset of the people I live amongst, and I also understand that the deer themselves can suffer if they are too populous. Not saying I want to kill any deer, just saying I have a little different perspective now than I did before I became a rural resident.

i’m a vegan athiest. it’s for environmental/health reasons, but i actually love eating this way. i wouldn’t do it if it wasn’t enjoyable, and for me it is. i’m not militant about it, but i often feel the urge to explain to people that there are other reasons to go vegan than “spiritual” reasons.

i can’t think of any compelling arguments why you should give up vegetarianism. as far as the tastes of meals goes, you’re not missing anything. really. for example, bacon tastes great to meat-eaters, but it wouldn’t taste great to you (or, at this point, me). vegan bacon (i.e. smoked tempeh strips, which can be bought or homemade, or a more processed “fake meat” product) tastes wonderful, and is even more delicious to someone who no longer craves meat. and fried tofu is way better than fried chicken (same delicious sauce, just lacks the nasty tendons and bones, for one thing).

I had an awesome steak today. Thick. Medium – just right for the most part. Delicious

I know that there can be cruelty in raising animals. The way they keep chickens for egg production in batteries is crazy for example – and outlawed for good reason in some places. But it’s not like that everywhere. So I don’t like it when people generalize about it.

If someone wants to be a vegetarian for ethical, environmental or medical/health reasons, fine. Whatever. What I don’t get is why some of them have to be so pushy about it. For some, it’s an ideology that demands that others be lectured on the evils of meat. Urk.

I just read an article on Unreasonably Dangerous Onion Rings about this same thing.

It addresses PETA specifically, but more importantly the fact that (just as with religion) so few people, if any, actually think through the reasons for their beliefs. Why does a sea sponge have the same right to life as a dolphin, for example? And why does an oyster deserve to live more than a carrot?

Here’s the link.

How do I reconcile that whole “fertilization” thing with being pro-choice? I honestly try not to think about it because I know there’s a logical problem there.

Pretty easily, actually. You aren’t trying to impose your personal morality on the world at large. Egg/meat avoidance is your personal choice, but you still support the rights of other people to make their own dietary decisions that in line with their personal morality/health/whatever.

It’s really not a logical problem that you carry that way of thinking over into your thoughts on overall bodily autonomy.

I’m a vegan atheist and I am inclined to think that my veganism is just as rational a philosophy as my atheism. I suggest that you look into Gary Francione, a law professor who is an advocate for abolitionist veganism.

By the way, in case you’re curious, I eat meat and I absolutely adore a good, medium-well steak.

Steak? Medium-well?! Now THAT’S animal cruelty.

I’m an omnivore, whereas my partner is an ovo-lacto vegetarian. He’s one of those amazing people who ate (and loved) meat for much of his life, but became veg. after learning more about the environmental issues.

I understand how some couples could struggle with dietary differences, but it’s never been an issue for us. He’s not one of those insufferable “vegangelicals,” and has never once tried to talk me out of meat-eating. And I admire and respect his principles too much to ever try to “convince” him to eat meat again. We cook only vegetarian food at home, which was initially challenging for me but is now one of my favorite parts of our home life.

Whether your vegetarianism is a vestige of your old religion or an ongoing conviction (or both) doesn’t really matter. Nor does it matter if you’re a little morally incoherent on the subject. We all are. It’s a tough thing to navigate. Best anyone can do is educate themselves on how their food is produced and then follow their own lights from there.

I admire your honesty in talking about this, Hemant. I’m trying to work out an ethical standard in regard to food myself, after learning about factory farms and slaughterhouses and how they function, the health ramifications of concentrated animal feeding operations (CAFOs), and so on. And I’ve been a meat-eater all of my life, so this is hard. I blogged about it recently, if you’re interested.

A friend of mine is a vegetarian who raises chickens in her backyard. The eggs from those chickens constitute the only animal protein she eats– I think that’s incredible and would love to get to that point myself, but realistically speaking it will be a while. Getting to the point of only eating animal products that are produced ethically (grass-fed beef, real free range poultry and truly organic milk, etc.) is the first step. I’d like to raise chickens in my backyard, but it’s currently illegal where I live though it’s legal in many urban places across the country. There’s no need for a rooster (and in fact they’re usually not allowed) so no concerns about fertilization. For that matter, it’s very unlikely that most eggs you’d get from a store would be fertilized either, but eggs from hens that have been allowed to dine on grass and bugs are win-win– they taste better, are better for you, and certainly better for the chicken.

I think it’s important to be consistent about these things as a skeptic, and I’m definitely not there yet. Fish are a freakin’ minefield– they’re healthier for you if they’re caught wild, but a lot of wild species are becoming endangered from over-fishing so eating only farm-raised fish might be more ethical. Hunting? I think non-vegetarians who are concerned about animal welfare should be all for it, since those deer/turkeys/quail/rabbits/etc. live far better lives than any cow raised standing in its own feces for its entire life eating corn that makes it sick. And their meat is better for you.

One of the points Michael Pollan makes in his books is that the industrialization of food has the probably deliberate effect of isolating us from information about how that food is produced, and isolation makes ethical decision-making a lot harder. It’s really easy to be inconsistent and hypocritical, which is why I think people throw their hands up in the air and say “Screw it, I’m going to McDonald’s and you can’t blame me for it.” That’s really not good. If nobody cares, nothing will change.

Another vegan atheist here. I have rational reasons for being vegan that are closely related to my atheism. And I am certainly guilty of inconsistencies. I’m not comfortable trying to convince anyone to try veganism. But if you’re interested, I think Peter Singer’s poorly-named book Animal Liberation (the name implies images of radical activists breaking into labs, not something Peter Singer remotely condones) is a great place for a logically-minded individual to explore the reasons for any level of vegetarianism.

“I don’t know what a lot of meals taste like. Turkey, fried chicken, steak, bacon (I know…), Big Macs, shrimp.”

That sentence actually made me a little sad. Eating, like many of our basic biological functions, can be one of life’s great enjoyments. To categorically remove, or never experience, a myriad of tastes and textures from ones diet just seems like such a waste of the little time we have on this rock. I know it sounds weird, but I feel my life is richer for eating meat. Though I am one of those people who will (mostly) try whatever is in front of me at least once, to see how it taste, I never know, I may like it.

I have to admit to never being able to understand vegetarians, even though I’ve dated two of them (though I still don’t understand women either so..). I just don’t see any validity to most of their reasons. I have no more moral obligation to the treatment of a chicken or cow than a T-Rex had to a Blahblahsaurus, and as far as it being better for the world, we have heaps of more pressing issues. But it’s their choice so as long as there are not self righteous about it, fine.

There is no way I could ever stop eating meat. I love pigs and cows. They are so damn yummy and I love eggs too.

Now I want to go to the Texas Roadhouse and get a rack of ribs. Now I gotta wipe the droll from the side of my mouth.

Hemant,

If you’re looking for a common sense philosophical argument for ethical vegetarianism/veganism (the strongest kind of argument for vegetarianism, in my opinion) you’d be hard pressed to find a better essay than “On the Immorality of Eating Meat” by the philosopher Mylan Engel. The essay is directed at meat-eating philosophers, but it’s easily accessible by any educated adult. So, if you intend to read only one short work on the subject, make it this one. Here’s a link to a pdf version.

Also, if you don’t already know about the organization, Vegan Outreach (the most reasonable and trustworthy popular animal advocacy group–again, in my opinion) publishes an excellent collection of introductory brochures explaining the cruelties of animal agribusiness and arguing that we ought not to support them. Here’s a link to their most popular brochure.

I’ve been following your site for over a year now, and because this is my first comment, I want to thank you for giving so much of your time and effort to bring us the best atheist news source on the web. It’s truly invaluable. Cheers to another year of thoughtful discussion on one of humankind’s most pressing–and divisive–subjects.

I think it’s often taken for granted even amongst vegetarians who chose to become vegetarians later in life that vegetarianism is the best way to accomplish their goals. I disagree with that assumption.

Moderation, not total elimination, has always been the key in diet and nutrition. The last thread had a few testimonials from former vegetarians that personally found their diet was having a debilitating effect on their health. Others may get by with no issue, but I don’t think it can be claimed that they are all more healthy than they would be with moderate meat consumption.

As for ethical concerns, by declaring that you’ll never eat meat under any circumstances, you effectively remove any motivation for the industry to change its practices to cater to those concerns. The fate of livestock animals became inextricable from human society the day they became domesticated; they will never return to the wild. The best thing that can be done for their livelihood is to support ethical farming practices by making sure all your animal products come from ethical sources.

First off – if you’re happy with it, and it works for you and you are healthy, go for it and be merry. With that said…

You say you wouldn’t eat meat from an animal that couldn’t feel pain; fair enough. But would you eat meat (aside from any other issues) if it were “grown” on a substrate? That is, it would be just like a plant, but grown in a controlled (though very artificial) manner; true industrial manufactured protein, with appropriate amounts of fat and fiber to hold it together…?

Such a thing doesn’t exist yet outside of perhaps laboratories (it seems like something that squicks people out – but if such a thing could be done on a larger scale, the possibilities for burn victims and others are enormous).

Myself – I enjoy eating meat, and I have no qualms over it. I’m not really happy about kosher/halal meat practices done industrially after watching that video; I’d prefer my meat to be stunned, shot, or otherwise rendered quickly and humanely dead before processing. I certainly understand where and what meat is (as a kid, my parents raised and butchered cattle, pigs, chickens, ducks and rabbits – no stranger to it here).

Myself – I love nothing more than a good, well-marbled rib-eye cooked medium-rare (ok, I love bacon and fried chicken, too – oh, and grilled salmon!). I’ve tried a few vegetarian dishs, and I like vegi-burgers on occasion (just to screw with the heads of the cooks and everyone else at a restaurant, sometimes add bacon to the order!). For me, ultimately, as long as it tastes good and isn’t bland, it works for me.

So – ultimately whatever works for you; I’m not on an crusade, and neither are you, nor does it seem like anyone else here cares. It was an interesting explanation for your previous post. I found what you wrote a little “shocking”, because I don’t equate hunting (for the purposes of eating the kill) with animal cruelty (generally, the last thing a hunter wants is to wound the animal – the instant stress and hormones released introduces bad flavors and toughness into the meat) of the kind Vick sanctioned.

My boyfriend (atheist like me) is nearly a vegetarian. He eats animals only from the wild or that were raised in good conditions. He’ll eat meat about once a month or so. I am a meat and potatoes type person (and the potatoes only came about halfway through college). He’s also a food snob (only eats high end stuff and all organic too) and I’m likely to end up at McDonald’s.

This was a big concern at the beginning of our relationship, but we’ve learned to deal with it. He has no intention of making me vegetarian, and I have no intention of forcing him to eat meat. At restaurants we just order different things and it’s no big deal. At home, we’ll either eat the same meal, or we’ll split it in half and he’ll add more veggies to his half and I’ll add meat to my half. I will admit I’ve now tried and eaten more veggies and other foods in general in the past 9 months of dating him than ever before, but I’ve liked nearly all of it!

In other words, it’s not a big deal to date someone of different food beliefs. Just talking about it and understanding each other’s beliefs will prevent any strife!

I eat meat a lot, but I’m not crazy about it. I think I lack a part of the brain that tells me that animal cruelty for food is wrong. In my mind, we are higher up in the food chain, and just like every other animal on the planet. we eat what is lower down the food chain. I am strongly against animal cruelty for sport or fun, but if it’s done for a source of food, I support it. I honestly don’t even care very much if the animal endures pain when being prepared to be turned into food. It goes back to the food chain argument. It’s just the way the world works. I like eating meat, and therefore beings that are lower on the food chain may endure pain for me to eat them. This is the way it happen throughout the entire animal kingdom, why should it be different just because I’m human? Humans are still animals.

I am a vegetarian and one thing i am absolutely sick of is omnivores who, when i bring up the fact that i’m a vegetarian, many times (its in the comment thread) say something along the lines of “i love meat too much to be a vegetarian.” Considering I am not a vegetarian(and i think most vegetarians agree) for reasons referring to how meat tastes – why bring it up? It is utterly irrelevant to why I am a vegetarian.

To the person who said that some vegetarians stop being so because it effects their health: a) since we are discussing anecdotes there are plenty of vegetarians who would say they became veg because of how eating meat was making them feel and b) you can eat a perfectly healthy diet without much trouble just like you can eat an absolutely terrible meat diet.

As someone who does not accept the idea of intrinsic value,those who bring up that some vegetarians think meat eating is “inherently bad” don’t refer to me. Meat eating isn’t “inherently bad” because nothing is “inherently bad.” But being inherently bad/intrinsic value isn’t what my ethical system is based on.

What separates the author from countless others whether vegetarians or carnivores is thinking critically about the question. I choose to eat no meat not because someone advised me one way or other. I eat only plants because of the massive deleterious effects of animal farming on our environment and health. The energy expenditure required to bring a steak to your table is enormous; and completely unnecessary. Further, the rampant overuse of antibiotics required to keep close-quartered animals well enough to survive to the slaughterhouse is widely considered to be a primary source of antimicrobial resistance among human pathogens.

So, I don’t consider vegetarianism a religious issue. If someone wants to make up superstitious reasons for avoiding meat; let them keep it to themselves. But in public discourse, the evidence is more than sufficient.

I would never talk someone out of a life choice they’ve made if the reasons ‘because I want to’. Once you try to defend your life style based on some sort of evidence, then the fight is on. I could point out that farming causes the death of thousands of living things, from pesticides to animals starving because their natural habitat was removed for the farm.

The same goes for religion. If someone believes in a god because they like it, then good for them. As soon as they claim that it’s rational, or that laws should be made in favor of their gods edicts, then its game on.

Personally, I think refusing to eat anything is missing out on a great part of being human. I’ll eat anything. I’ve had witchity grubs in Australia, chocolate covered ants, prairie oysters (fried bull testicles), lutefisk, fried grasshopper, and any number of other odd delicacies. Eating is one of our 5 senses. Choosing to not explore one part of the food spectrum is like choosing to not look at mountains. Sure, there are plenty of pretty views, and you could probably go all your life without enjoying a mountain vista, but I feel you would be missing out on a special part of living by never seeing the sun set behind the rockies.

So, if you choose to never enjoy a mountain scene, I won’t criticize. That just means there is more bacon for me

Hemant, did your family abstain from roots and leafy vegetables, too? If so, do you still follow that?

(Hemant says: My mom still does on certain days… though because it’s almost impossible to do without the plants, it’s thought of as a “necessary evil” so we ate them in lieu of animals.)

@Gretchen
I never stated that moral values don’t exist. I didn’t mean to imply that nothing is right or wrong just because animals do it. It’s just reality that animals are always under a lot of pain in the world when being prepared as a meal. Whether it’s right or wrong, I don’t think it really matters. It’s always going to happen, and as long as you put good use to all the parts of the animal, then at least it wouldn’t have died in vain.

And I didn’t suggest that you don’t think moral values exist, Larry. What you did was try to justify meat consumption by saying that’s what all other animals do, which is not a justification at all. You have no idea whether it’s “always going to happen” for humans, and whether it always should happen is a moral question, considering that it doesn’t have to happen.

There are good arguments for eating meat, some of which have been mentioned in this thread, but that ain’t one of them.

I’ve been a vegetarian longer than I’ve been an atheist. I actually think vegetarianism was a stepping stone to skepticism for me. Eating meat was the first big issue I ever thought to challenge. The reason I became vegetarian has almost nothing to do with animal cruelty, I’d have to say it’s the last reason on my list of reasons to be honest. The main reasons I have found for abstaining from meat are, my own personal health, the environment, the social issues (the way the slaughterhouse workers/farmers (even veg. farmers fall under this category, sadly) are treated) and the pure fun.

Sure, you could argue that meat moderation is healthy meat eating, but unless you’re buying healthy beef/pork/poultry/lamb/etc. you could still be eating loads of anti-biotics and the like. It might sound like a cop out, but it’s much easier for me to give myself the label vegetarian, instead of trying to moderate meat consumption to the low level it should be.

It takes an extreme amount of resources to manufacture meat. It’s insane. I won’t start spouting facts because I’m not trying to convert anyone. Subsidies kill me. The whole idea of subsidizing food production started in the 70′s to ensure that enough food was made to feed Americans. Subsidies were also put in place to fight off rising costs at the grocery store, to help make sure everyone could eat. Well, this is all an intrinsically excellent idea; trying to ensure no one in our country go hungry. However, the flaw comes when the subsidized products are singled out and become food fillers. Now, tons of tax money is going into corn production so that cows can be fed, so that corn plastics can be produced, things of that nature. The corn itself makes almost no money for the farmer, it’s the subsidies that keep the corn farmer alive. And that’s a sad thing. Sorry sorry, I’ll quit ranting.

I did want to say something to TIM from above on his comment about how veggies try so hard to eat the things they loathe. Sometimes we just miss comfort food, a lot. I don’t constantly eat soy meat substitutes because it just doesn’t seem logical to me. It’s costly, and too much soy can be bad for you too. But damnit, sometimes I just miss the idea of a burger and fries! Hence the veggieburgers.

As for the idea that it’s natural to eat meat. Sure, it’s totally natural. It’s not natural the way it’s done in America at all. There’s nothing natural about going to the grocery store and buying meat that’s been smashed into patties and frozen. There’s nothing natural about the way these animals were raised. The food chain argument is silly to me.

Hemant, I also find your idea of hunting kind of weird. At least to me it’s weird. Probably because we’re vegetarian for two very different reasons though. I praise hunters. That is natural. Going out there at 4 a.m., sitting in the cold just hoping you even get the chance to kill an animal. Then, dragging it home and doing all the work yourself, I think that’s something noble. Not to mention game meat is fresher (tastier if I’m remembering correctly from my meat days). Anyone who wants to eat meat and goes through the trouble of killing their own animals and all the steps that come with it, I think that’s much better than just hitting up the grocery store and taking the whole system for granted.

I wish I could be vegetarian, but like you said, it takes someone with a really strong will power to stop eating meat after eating it their entire lives. I lived in a small “redneck” town in southern mo for all but 2 months of my 21 year old life. Being surrounded by people who eat meat, it was hard, I also didn’t have a variety of vegetarian friendly foods available. I lasted almost 2 months but it was too much, even though I wasn’t a huge meat fan to begin with. I’m glad you have stuck with it this long. Don’t ever give in!! You don’t need those big juicy steaks!

@Gretchen actually you did suggest I don’t think moral values exist.

I eat meat, but I really hate this (attempt at) justification for doing so. It’s an obvious use of the naturalistic fallacy– nothing is moral or immoral for us because of what other animals do or have done.

You’re right, I don’t know whether or not it always will happen for humans (although it probably will), but it will always happen in the world among different species, and I’d argue that it must happen. Should we try and stop other animals and even insects for hurting their prey too?

What Atayla linked to. Actually yeah you have to do a search for it because she was basically overwhelmed with militant vegans who came after her.

I’m a vegetarian myself, along with my wife. And the story that Atayla pointed out, I read that what..3 weeks ago? Two weeks ago my wife was called into the doctor’s office on an emergency basis, her B-12 was critically low. A double-strength injection later, symptoms that she was dealing with for a decade cleared up, almost overnight. And not just things that could be seen as being somatic such as fatigue (which has improved 100x), but real physical symptoms such as rashes (?!?) and limb temperature.

We’re not sure if it’s the diet, and we’re not sure what to do from here. Gotta wait for further medical advice. But that said, it’s clear that what that article says, that stuff CAN happen, it’s real. That said, there’s no doubt that modern food production is seriously messed up, and causes a lot of damage, and that’s why I think that moderation is good in so many ways, and the popular “MEAT and potatoes” diet is terribly flawed.

I never would before, because I always thought it was unproductive (PETA are trolls, more or less), but now I would always warn people of potential risks of vegetarianism. That’s not to say that it’ll always happen of course.

But I don’t think that good people have to play the martyr. I don’t think that’s right.

FWIW I think Hemant is in exactly the opposite situation where his body has adapted in such a way where eating meat would do him bad. So I’d say if what you’re doing works for you (and it’s obvious it does), keep at it. Personally 90% of the time I would much rather the vegetarian diet, the only time where it’s annoying is either in social situations or trying to find a good place to eat out (in a small town)

Vegan:

- male cows (which will always be born) are put to death, despite the having a milk-cow. It’s always the females which are exploited, while the males must be sacrificed, culled.

- veals are taken from the mother so they don’t consume the milk extracted for humans

- milking devices cause blisters and puss to form on the cow’s udder (hurtful, of course), while cows living in large numbers also diseased very easily, especially if they live in small enclosures surrounded with feces

- most cows live in horrid conditions, even if they’re just for milk

That’s my case.

I’m a vegan in the sens that I don’t like to cause suffering, so I avoid eating anything with a central nervous system.

P.S. also, milk is very bad for you, especially if you’re not of european (white) descent (they have the most tolerance for milk protein and sugar). For more: http://notmilk.com or health.groups.yahoo.com/group/notmilk/

P.p.s. I won’t reply to other replies, this is just my answer to your post.

Larry,

No, you misread me. What I was saying is that you can’t claim that anything is moral or immoral by appealing to what animals do or don’t do. “Animals do X” says absolutely nothing about whether X is right or wrong for us, and claiming that it does is an instance of the naturalistic fallacy.

Yes, non-human animals will most likely always eat other animals. But that has nothing to do with what we should or will do. That’s the point.

@Karmakin
Fish contains lots of Vitamin B12. If you don’t want to go that route, a vegetarian source are eggs and dairy products like milk and cheese.

@ Ewan The ” suffering on others”? I don’t cause the suffering of any person when I eat. Now by “person” I mean HUMAN. I have moral obligations to other humans because other humans ask me to (fundementally that is). When chickens march down the street asking for rights I’ll grant them. Until then I have no moral obligation to chickens who arn’t even self aware. Does that mean I go around kicking dogs? No, I don’t just go around causing suffering, and dogs are not chicken. But suffering is part of life no matter what you want so if an animal suffers for a tasty meal, so be it, it’s not an “other” to me.

Steve:I suspect the long-term route is going to be fish, to be honest. We don’t drink milk at all, but consume a decent amount of cheese. (Again, having to do with acceptable local alternatives).

Like I said, it might be something else. But it’s something we’re investigating, and it’s good for all non-meat eaters to keep an eye on.

I’m a vego, have been for 12 years. Every now and again, I crave steak. A nice, juicy, medium steak. And the next time that I get near meat, I stick my nose as close to it as I can bear and try to figure out what about it I actually want. Because the reality of meat, as opposed to the fantasy of meat, really grosses me out. The texture is bleugh and the colour is foul, and knowing that it’s the same as my leg creeps me out, and it’s always covered in fat … And I never eat it. I never WANT to eat, I just look at it real close.
I used to be mostly vego but eating poultry and fish – mostly due to parental pressure. I found that when I did eat animal protein, I would get a stomach ache, sleep poorly and wake up starving hungry. I imagine that anyone eating meat for more-or-less the first time would have an even worse time of it.

Deepak Shetty, any time you want to ask questions about morals, you run into a tangle. Many atheists are moral relativists, so trying to say that something is or isn’t right is a subjective rather than objective judgment.

In your example of the alien species, they would have a completely different (even alien) morality than we do. To our mind, it would be immoral to eat us, but it could be perfectly moral to them.

@Gretchen

Well I think we both misread each other, because I wasn’t claiming anything as moral or immoral based on what animals do. I was just saying that it DOES happen, and always will to some extent, whether or not it’s moral or immoral. I personally lack sympathy for animals that are killed for food. As I said, maybe I’m just lacking that part of the brain. I just don’t care as long as all the parts of the animal are used for a good cause.

(oops, I didn’t mean to post twice, I just suddenly wanted to add something right after clicking post)

Hemant, I really admire your open and unabashed honesty in this post, looking at your human inconsistencies without embarrassment or excuse, just sharing yourself. I’ve noticed at other times that you can go looking inside for a truth about yourself without a stick in your hand. Often people are so ready and willing to beat the crap out of themselves if they find something imperfect or even inconsistent, that they just never even peek inside. Your self-compassion is rare and healthy.

@HP
Come on – either have the courage to admit where your views lead you or change them.

Should cannibalism be legal – based on your expressed views (including the act of killing the human for food)?
Yes or No please – None of this humans can put whatever they want in their bodies for any reason.

I’ve been a veggie for a couple of years. After much deliberation with myself and friends, I decided to give it up for 3 big reasons: my own health, the insane environmental impact meat production has, and to avoid cruelty to animals.

I quit shortly after quitting smoking (cold turkey after a pack-a-day for many years). Having dealt with that addiction, especially in such a close approximate time to changing my diet, I had the (perhaps unique?) opportunity to compare the experiences. There is absolutely no comparison. Eating meat is not an addiction.

In reality, there is exactly one thing stopping people from changing their diet, whether to become a vegetarian, or to eat less crap-type food: desire.

I understand the lack of desire. I love the taste of meat (and I still eat total shit). It took a long time for me grappling with the idea of giving up before I finally decided that it was something I wanted to try. I, too, thought that it was going to be difficult so I said I’d try it for one week. To my surprise, it was exactly the opposite: it was easy. Really easy, in fact.

Unlike a real addiction, it was completely uneventful. Sure, I get funny looks occasionally (I live in a mid-sized city with a small-town mindset) and I catch the scent of BBQ’ed something-or-another and think “oh, that would be delicious,” but I have yet to experience any actual pain. Cravings, cold sweats, feeling that my blood was boiling within my veins, and mood swings are some of the delights I had when I was purging myself of nicotine. If what I experienced then was a 10 on a meter-of-discomfort, giving up meat has yet to register a 0.001.

Having said all that, I think it’s more impressive that you, living in a society that puts such an apparent emphasis on eating meat, could live your entire life without giving into the sheer curiosity of it or the social/peer pressure (the very things that got me smoking). I have many friends that tease me for it in good fun. THAT is the real test of willpower and I commend you for it.

I also want to warn anyone who wants to go vegan that it’s not easy. Just like with atheism, you can do it in a wrong way.

For good health, the key thing is to keep up diversity and keep a journal, so you can identify what you are allergic to or what makes you feel bad. Also, don’t forget mushrooms and soy – they have great protein and are usually much cheaper than meat. Diversity prevents deficiencies in B12 or proteins (proteins aren’t actually that important; you need about 1 gram per kg of body weight) and excess of them can cause blood acidity and calcium loss, which is very bad. If you’re really interested in health, just being vegan is not enough, you have to learn about all the food you eat, where it comes and what it does in the body. (This usually means avoiding highly processed and highly cooked foods and excesses.)

I’ve seen some link above about a woman who turned away from veganism because of anemia. That’s just 1 case; not a study. It’s the case of an uneducated vegan. I’ve never ever met a vegan who was anemic, only concerned “omnivores”.

Don’t forget, if you live in the West, there’s little infrastructure for supporting veganism, so it’s much harder to do it right, but the more vegans there are, the easier it gets.

As for me, I was an omnivore till adulthood, after that I had 5 years of vegetarianism (which were very good). I’ve been a vegan for 2 years and I feel even better (no anemia, no weight loss, no drop in energy or anything). The most important change I and my family noticed was that my temperament was more regular; dramatically less anger and fury. You’ll hear most vegan-converts talk about such changes… I think it’s because of the elimination of milk from the diet – milk can cause severe allergy and weird hormone imbalances (also —- acne; I always get huge zits if there’s butter in the food I eat at parties and other events).

Nevertheless, I made the change for moral reasons, not health. My principles have always been central to anything my behavior and mentality (which includes humanism). I won’t go in to any more details, because it would lead to cheap stereotyping like “eco-vegan-anarchist-atheist-biker-nutbags”…

Recently I have been moving more towards vegetarianism purely for the purported health benefits. I think it was mainly sparked from the realization that I wasn’t getting enough vegetables in my diet to start with, so maybe I’m just overcompensating. I’m not completely vegetarian, though, as I still keep some canned tuna and the occasional turkey or chicken slices for sandwiches. And then whenever my parents visit I end up faltering since they have no qualms about digging into red meats, but otherwise I’ve been easily avoiding beef and pork.

I’m still not entirely convinced about the health benefits of pure vegetarianism. My background in anthropology tells me that one of the key factors in human evolution was in our meat-eating, in particular our cooking of meat. Humans are designed to eat meat, as well as other foods, so it’s hard to grasp the idea that cutting meat out of one’s diet should be a good thing. Still, I am trying to limit it.

My current job allows me contact with several different faiths as my employers provide product for a great many different religious institutions. Whenever my boss has a meeting with Hindus, Jains, or Sikhs he always manages to make some kind of comment (normally behind their backs) about how all Indians are messed up because none of them eat meat. His ignorance astounds me. I know there are religious reasons for vegetarianism, but I also know the entire country is not opposed to meat. He can’t grasp it, though.

@HP
You are making the case it is illegal to kill humans(currently) hence illegal to eat babies.

However your view should lead you to – it should not be illegal to kill babies for food.

I think there are plenty of reasons not to start eating babies.

Whatever happened to

I can’t see any good reason why you shouldn’t be able to eat or not eat whatever you want, for any reason, or for no reason at all.

I have moral obligations to other humans because other humans ask me to (fundementally that is). When chickens march down the street asking for rights I’ll grant them. Until then I have no moral obligation to chickens

You do though. Again, it’s about capability. You’re capable of assessing the level of suffering you cause to animals, they are not capable of marching down the street, so it’s your responsibility to deal with it.

You might just as well go around poking mentally disabled people with sticks because they can’t ask you to stop. Your moral choices are for you to make; and so far yours seems to be to inflict suffering on anything defenceless enough to not fight back.

I became a vegetarian when I was around 10 years old. I slowly realized that I just didn’t care for the taste of meat anymore and gradually gave it all up. I’d love to say it was for ethical reasons, but I’m not sure that really factored into my decision. However, I suppose it must have been in the back of my mind. After all, I was the same child who loved watching Charlotte’s Web and who cried when an older cousin told me that baby sausages came from baby pigs. I’ve always been anti-hunting and pro-animal rights, so I may have been inclined towards vegetarianism anyway.

I dont have any absolutes. My point is that the view you brashly proclaim is almost certainly not the view you have.

1) Humans have the right to personal autonomy.

Why? What gives a species the right to personal autonomy?.
This is the important part – we award humans some rights and the basis on which we award those rights has relevance on whether we should award those to non humans. Is it the ability to feel pain? to reason? intellect? The possession of a soul?
Or is the argument circular – we are humans so we award humans – everything else be damned.

2) Food choices are constrained by the fact that eating food is a profoundly social activity.

Argument by tradition. I don’t buy it for religion. I’m not going to buy it for food.
Its also mostly irrelevant. We are arguing whether it is moral to do something (not that some countries might have laws that forbid eating pork)

So, you have to weigh your choices against the social cost.

So if cannibalism was the prevailing social custom , then it would be moral (in your opinion of course, no absolutes)? Similar arguments for slavery and any form of discrimination.

We are arguing whether it is moral to do something

A-ha! And there’s the nub of our disagreement.

We are not arguing about whether it is moral to do something. You are insisting that this is an argument about morality. And I am saying that it an argument about how to maximize personal well-being in the real world by balancing the right to make choices against the social consequences of those choices.

I recently became vegetarian and it was a result of my going from Christianity to atheism. My basic thought was that if my morality was based on not causing harm to conscious beings – then that should extend to animals. I don’t know what has been a bigger shock to people – my switch to atheisim or vegetarianism!

Hemant – great post. I became a lacto-ovo vegetarian over 10 years ago, after having grown up eating meat. My partner is vegan and is the family chef, so I eat vegan about 80% of the time.

Like you, I have some trouble with the inconsistency between one of the main (but certainly not the only) benefits of vegetarianism – which is, obviously, to exercise a choice in diet so that no animals have to die for my meals.

It’s true that factory-farmed egg-laying chickens and dairy cows experience suffering. And suffering seems to be a continuum, with discomfort on one end, and extreme pain or death on the other. (If one believes that animals have “souls” that were dispatched upon death, I suppose a more firm dividing line could be drawn.) So by not being vegan, I am accepting that some of the “source” materials in my meal may have caused sentient beings some level of suffering.

Even the best Jain, sweeping the ground as he or she walks, will occasionally inhale or step on some insects. Animal byproducts are pretty much in everything. (Those marshmallows in your rice krispy treats contain gelatin, made directly from dead animals.) It’s probably impossible to live ones life without causing -some- harm. So, my goal is to minimize harm. If a medication I need comes in gel-caps (gelatin) and tablets (no gelatin), I buy the tablets. But if it only comes in gel-caps, and I need it, I buy it.

Not sure if you’ve read Peter Singer’s essays on this topic. He’s not exclusively vegan either, and he’s the most freakin’ ethical guy on the planet.

Why contribute to suffering if you don’t desire meat? It’s not good for your health, it’s not good for the environment, and it seems absolutely grotesque to consider beginning to eat dead animals after decades of not doing so — there is no upside, only a contribution to suffering.

Take care, let us know what happens if you decide to experiment.

So, as long as I’ve been putting Hemant into all kinds of hypothetical situations (which, by the way, Hemant, has been fun, if not exactly fair), let’s try what I think is a realistic situation that may have something to do with this post.

Let’s suppose that Hemant is a child of South Asian immigrants living in Chicago, Illinois. Let’s further suppose that Hemant is a former Jain, raised in a Jain home, who is now an atheist. Vegetarianism is all he’s known, and it’s how he prefers to eat, and it’s healthy and better for the planet, so why not?

Now, this hypothetical Hemant is invited by a group of atheist/humanist/skeptical friends to a backyard cookout of the type that is traditional in the American midwest. Hemant knows that this traditionally involves eating meat and drinking alcohol, but he’s not interested in that — he’s interested in socializing with friends with whom he shares common interests.

Hemant arrives, and goes to fill up his plate on side dishes. But — there is crumbled bacon in the potato salad. There are chunks of salt pork in the baked beans. There are slices of pepperoni in the macaroni salad. And there is nothing to drink but beer and kool-aid for the kids.

Hemant tries to have a good time, but with a plate of iceberg lettuce and tomato slices and plain white-bread hamburger buns. Now, our imaginary Hemant is still enjoying everyone’s company, but he is hungry, and his dietary choices have set him apart from his peers. It’s a bit uncomfortable, and while he would still prefer not to eat meat, he wonders if he shouldn’t be more accommodating, especially since he no longer has the excuse of religiously-based dietary laws.

Human beings are profoundly social animals, and sharing food is one of the most primal social acts there is.

How do you choose? I believe that that’s what this post is about.

@comment above

Cellulose might not be digestible, but it’s very good for the colon, which does extract nutrients from it. It’s been shown that it helps prevent colo-rectal cancer and, of course, constipation. If you know anyone with colon cancer, just ask them what their average diet was as far back as they can remember…

“It’s easier (nutritionally) to make a human out of meat than grain.”

It’s also way more expensive. The coming oil and climate problems will eventually force people to turn to veganism, because it’s many times cheaper to eat the grains directly, rather than have the protein concentrated by using an animal. It’s also easier to store; not many people have the capacity to store a corpse, while grains and beans can be kept very well (some of the first uses of pottery and math in human history).

“Cellulose might not be digestible, but it’s very good for the colon, which does extract nutrients from it. It’s been shown that it helps prevent colo-rectal cancer and, of course, constipation. If you know anyone with colon cancer, just ask them what their average diet was as far back as they can remember…”

The issue I was making has nothing to do with potential diseases of the colon-but EVERYTHING to do with starvation and death.

Yes, indirectly, we have the ability to absorb some nutrients from nothing but grass.

But-in comparison-look at a cow.

They have FOUR stomachs-that’s three more than we do.

Almost all of their energy budget is geared towards breaking down these nutrients. They eat TONS of grass to make even a kilo of “cow”.

You simply can’t live on a diet of nothing but grass. In fact-you, as both an individual (and as part of a collective) are usually given a limited choice in what you have available.

You can either starve eating grass…

…or hunt, kill and eat the juicy Buffalo that just wandered by…

Your choice.

And incidentally, I happen to think that PETA is about the worst thing to happen to animals and animal rights in this century. Their dog shelters have a 97% kill rate and they support the inane and insane notion that pitbulls are a “vicious breed.” And no one outside of PETA takes PETA seriously.

Damaging. Seriously damaging to animal rights.

““It’s easier (nutritionally) to make a human out of meat than grain.”

It’s also way more expensive. The coming oil and climate problems will eventually force people to turn to veganism, because it’s many times cheaper to eat the grains directly, rather than have the protein concentrated by using an animal. It’s also easier to store; not many people have the capacity to store a corpse, while grains and beans can be kept very well (some of the first uses of pottery and math in human history).”

On this point I agree. We’re selfish bastards (as a species) and I was quite put off when W started the whole “alternative fuels” gig a few years back. See, we have these HUGE cornfields that can be converted into Ethanol and pumped into your gas tank…

Yes, you can. They can also be turned into tortillas-which are eaten by a large portion of the Mexican population as their only source of protein…

Can you say “food riots” people?

Besides-the overall cycle efficiency of “corn to ethanol” is a wash. It’s probably more efficient to burn the petrochemicals directly.

Longtime reader, first time poster. Just wanted to let you know that your rationale for not eating meat is pretty much completely off the wall. I’m glad you seem to acknowldge that.

Thanks for not trying to impose it on me, or claiming tax exempt status.

Hi, I’m a vegiatarian, and I have been for over 2 years now. But the reason I’m posting is because marshmallows do have gelatin in them, however, marshmallow fluff doesn’t. Just in case you wanted to know an easy replacement when you make rice krispie treats.

Eggs that you buy from the store are unfertilized.

@Moose: I don’t know about veganism, but are there are signs of emergent civilization based on pre-agricultural, browsing societies in paleolithic cultures. Notably in Japan, Australia, and parts of South and West Asia, there are very early signs of permanent settlements and architecture in areas that were particularly rich in natural resources prior to the introduction of agriculture and animal husbandry.

But these were almost certainly omnivorous societies, although with the preponderance of calories coming from vegetable resourses.

@Moose: I don’t know about veganism, but are there are signs of emergent civilization based on pre-agricultural, browsing societies in paleolithic cultures. Notably in Japan, Australia, and parts of South and West Asia, there are very early signs of permanent settlements and architecture in areas that were particularly rich in natural resources prior to the introduction of agriculture and animal husbandry.

But these were almost certainly omnivorous societies, although with the preponderance of calories coming from vegetable resourses.

As I live in Australia, I can certify that Aboriginal culture is very much like that-they use positively anything as a source of nutrition-even insects.

Worth noting though-even in an impoverished area (such as the Outback) the issues isn’t so much as how many calories you can acquire-but potable water is a different story.

Places form around such waterholes. It is the literal “staff of life” in these parts…

Well, almost everything has been said here, hasn’t it? I’ll try a slightly different angle on this.

I’m somewhere in the middle in practice. If vegetarianism/veganism works for you without any health problems, that’s good. I personally have to eat a small amount of meat or I get pretty weak. I lift weight for exercise and the last time I went for more than a week or so without at least a small patty of beef I was weak as a kitten. To stay optimal, I usually have a small patty of ground beef after a workout, which is maybe three times a week, but I rarely eat meat outside of that. But I’m not a huge meat eater, a lot of meat kind of grosses me out with the gristle, and I don’t often eat meat in restaurants because the servings are always way too big for me to handle. I think there are some benefits to eating a small amount, whereas the huge wheel-barrow-fulls of meat so many Americans think is a crucial part of each meal is bad for the environment, their own health, and the animals (because the more animals they kill to feed that demand, the more the concern will be to churn out the product rather than produce it humanely).

I also have a lot of respect for vegetarians and their efforts, even more so since I began my stand against no-suspicion workplace drug testing. It’s really difficult to take an ethical stand against something that has been so fundamentally ingrained in people’s lives that they fail to even question the practice anymore–and tend to attack those who do in all manner of vitriolic personal abuse–especially one that the corporate culture has made so infernally difficult to even personally uphold without starving. My college roommate was a vegetarian and tried hard to be a vegan, but I could see it was a struggle for her to maintain against the food industry. Last I heard she had decided to settle for vegetarianism and, for the time being, give up on vegan-ism. At least vegetarians aren’t assumed to be criminals when they take their stand, as I am, but that doesn’t make it any easier.

Here’s the thing about moderation though–you are contending, as vegetarians, against a culture/society that has been eating meat for thousands of years, and it is a practice so ingrained in the psyche of most people that many can’t even conceive of idea that it could be a choice. It’s going to be almost impossible to make the vast majority of them just drop it, even for ethics. Hell, it’s the same with religion too–no matter what hideous unethical thing religion has been responsible for, you still tend to get the various hyper-defensive mental contortions trying to justify what they’ve become used to–well, that and verbal abuse. But just as sometimes the biggest victory you can realistically expect is to get someone to rationally consider or humanize their religious beliefs in a practical sense, the best you might be able to get for now is to convince people to eat less meat. Even if you believe we need it for nutrition, there is no excuse for the sheer quantity we manage to go through in our society on a regular basis.

Perhaps the first order of business should be to tone down the meat-gluttony, which can be easily justified as a personal health concern. It’s really hard to convince someone who is used to eating two hamburgers and three hot dogs at every summer cookout to go for the tofu, but you might be able to encourage him to knock it back to one hamburger and two–or even one–hot dog. For example, that’s why I specify that I oppose no-suspicion testing even though I think it should all be done away with–because people are so ingrained to believe in testing, they are loathe to give up all of it even when they agree it doesn’t work (kind of like religion, again), so I offer them a compromise: At least limit it to a with-cause-only policy. I find more people are receptive to my position when I explain it like that.

And I’m only contending with a practice that has been commonly used since Reagan, whereas you are contending with something much older and even more dyed-in-the-wool.

And even if you can’t get any further than people moderating and limiting their meat consumption, that drastic decrease in demand alone will have to have an impact on the situation. Even better if you can convince people to buy only from ethical sources more successfully, if they weren’t buying meat/eggs/etc. in such bulk that their first concern is the price. When you’ve got someone like my mom setting a table for ten, all of whom see the meat as the main thing and any veggies as a small afterthought, and my mom has this old Slovak hospitality that says she has to provide enough for everyone to glut themselves stupid without limits or else she’s a bad hostess, it’s hard to convince her to go for the free-range eggs and meat over the unethical sources that are a few dollars cheaper. It’s selfish, but there it is–a lot of people are, and will proudly say “who cares if the animal suffers, as long as I can save two dollars, I don’t care!” My mom thinks I’m nuts because I won’t shop at a lot of stores or buy certain goods for ethical reasons, because as a result what I do buy is a little more expensive and she simply cannot see any argument that exists outside her pocketbook as a valid one. A lot of Americans have that immediate-gratification I-got-mine-screw-you way of thinking, unfortunately.

There’s also the false dichotomy. People are raised with meat, both in terms of what they eat and how they think about it, and it’s hard to give it up altogether even if they want to. I think a lot of people do have some guilt over the ethical dilemma, but think that the only thing they can really do is give up all meat–which they can’t, or feel they can’t, do. So they rationalize why meat-eating is great and get nasty about the very concept of vegetarianism. If you could convince these people that they don’t really have to give it all up to make a difference, that simply scaling back the quantity will still make a positive impact, you might be able to break that tough surface.

I say that because it’s something that has worked on me. I don’t eat much meat, but what I do eat I love and I used to eat way too much of it. And while I wasn’t angry about vegetarians, and while I did feel a bit guilty about the pain of food-production animals, I didn’t think I could possibly give up eating meat. And so I thought there was nothing I could do. When I found out that by just scaling back my amounts I could help have a positive impact regarding the environment and the ethical practices, I had a lot more motivation to do so.

Same thing happened with losing weight. I had been told I had to do aerobics for two hours a day and eat nothing but lettuce to lose weight and that was the only way to make a difference. I wasn’t prepared to live like that, so I continued on as usual. When I discovered that a small lifestyle change would make a change in my health–just cut back on potato chips and mayo and do a little exercise twice a week for a half-hour, for example–I had more interest in pursuing weight loss.

Interestingly, the meat I do like to eat tastes a lot better and brings me more pleasure since I stopped glutting myself on it all the time. Just like coke and pepsi taste a lot better since I stopped drinking it every day and dropped back to no more than three or four cans a month tops. Which might be another point to hit–that if one cuts back, then when one does eat a steak, it will taste much better than it did when you were eating it constantly.

Sorry for yet another wall ‘o’ text. I really wanted to explain an angle that might help vegetarians who want to make a difference though, from the point of view of a meat-eating vegetarian sympathizer.

Deepak

Or do you buy the fundamentalist Muslims Sharia is right for us not for you arguments?

Thats the real problem with morality. Everyone thinks that theirs is the ‘right’ morality. My personal view is that morality is the sum of the individual morals in a society. Morality is constantly shifting. To my mind, any morality that works to keep society cohesive is a good morality. When there is social upheaval, then the group morality needs to shift.

That said, I can foresee a future where meat is considered immoral because of the animal suffering, and environmental impact. We are a long way from that right now, but it could easily happen.

It’s certainly not an excuse, but maybe that sheds a little more light on how I equated hunting to dog-fighting the other day. I’m used to a world where any animal cruelty is treated the same way.

Hemant, most hunting is encouraged in order to keep populations down to manageable levels. That some people enjoy the chase and/or the kill is irrelevant to that practical purpose.
BTW, where do you stand on the culling of badgers to prevent bovine TB, for example?

Hemant,

Making the comment that you have a hard time reconciling your thinking on eggs with your stance on pro-choice is very honest and I comment you for it. I would hope that instead of deciding that you can live with that inconsistency that you re-think your views on pro-choice.

For all of you arguing that you have made the moral or ethical decision not to eat meat because you find it inhumane to eat anything that suffers or because you don’t want to contribute to the harm to those that are in no position to protect themselves, then you have an idea of how those of us who are pro-life think. Replace chicken with unborn child and maybe you can understand why we march and are vocal to protect the unborn children.

I can’t speak for anyone else here, Robert W., but I’m all too aware of how pro-lifers think. And I flatly reject the proposition that a fetus which is being aborted suffers in the way of the majority of animals raised to end up on a dinner plate.

@ Robert W.

The guy who made the move watched it and declared that it was authentic?

Wow, talk about circular reasoning. That’s even worse than trying to prove the bible is true.

Ok, so I accept your premise that a fetus has enough neural connections to feel pain. If I then accept your premise that it’s a good enough reason to ban abortions, then it’s a good enough reason to ban fishing with lives worms. Worms can feel pain, thus we should ban the use of them in fishing! Fly’s can feel pain, we should ban flyswatters! Mice can feel pain, we should ban mousetraps!!

Didn’t read through all 120 comments, apologies if I am repeating something already said. Undoubtedly I am, but I’m just vain enough to do it anyway.

Hemant – you’re overthinking this. We’re humans. We evolved as omnivores. We have teeth both for incising meat and grinding vegetation. There’s nothing morally inferior about people eating meat. There’s nothing morally superior about being a vegetarian.

Bottom line: eat whatever the hell you want*. You don’t owe me or anyone else on here an explanation. Nonetheless, reading your moral dilemma regarding how “vegetarian” you should be was entertaining.

*Except brussel sprouts. Nobody should eat brussel sprouts.

I read through a good amount of the comments on the thread and many of them were very interesting. I love to hear different opinions and experiences.

Before I became a vegetarian, I really struggled with the “but we are supposed to eat meat!” argument. I was a biology major – and I knew all about the enzymes for eating meat, evolution, etc. The more I researched the environmental impact, the practices and the cruelty involved, the more turned off I became. I remember getting one of my favorite treats – a buffalo chicken cheesesteak – and afterward, I felt sick to my stomach. I just couldn’t do it anymore.

Even though eating meat was an important part of evolution, it seems like nowadays, we have many other ways to get the nutrients we need (at least those who are able to afford it). As a whole, we are more knowledgeable about what we should be eating. I make sure to always get enough of everything I need in one way or another. I’ve felt a lot better since I switched and I don’t think I could ever go back.

I’m sure this type of diet isn’t for everyone. You do have to be somewhat careful about what you eat (how you get your protein, B12, etc), especially if you eat vegan. However, with a little research, it might not be too tricky.

I always used to think vegetarians were silly. I didn’t want to think about my eating habits. Meat tasted good and that argument was good enough for me – until I had to delve deeper into the issue for one of my college courses. I understand why most people eat meat – many say that they don’t want to learn more about it because if they did, they wouldn’t eat meat anymore. More than anything, I just wish the meat industry itself would change. I wish the information about what goes into our food (not just meat and dairy) was more widely available – at least to give people the option to change, or prompt the food industry to clean up its act. I still couldn’t eat meat, but at least those who choose to do so could be eating a safer product. Or perhaps the animals could have a chance to live a remotely normal (happy?) life before becoming food. *shrug*

HP
So the suffering of other forms of life is not a question of morality? You know this is false because even most non vegetarians prefer that the animals be treated as humanely as possible and we do not tolerate random torture of animals were it not for some cause(food, research etc).

You also have a pretty narrow definition of humanism since you refuse to consider why we accord a special status to humans (other than an unreasonable we are humans ourselves)?

@Demonhype

I really admire your post and point of view!

I had fish lucknavi at my favorite Indian restaurant the other night. Occasionally eating fish with delicious Indian sauces may be an option for you if you want to tentatively venture into the barbaric world of eating animal flesh. At least sea creatures are not warm and furry.

Atl,

“Real time ultrasonography, fetoscopy, study of the fetal EKG (electrocardiogram) and fetal EEG (electroencephalogram) have demonstrated the remarkable responsiveness of the human fetus to pain, touch, and sound. That the fetus responds to changes in light intensity within the womb, to heat, to cold, and to taste (by altering the chemical nature of the fluid swallowed by the fetus) has been exquisitely documented in the pioneering work of the late Sir William Lily — the father of fetology.”

That is where I got that. If it is wrong I will stand corrected

Here is some additional info, for what the fetus feels later in the pregnancy:

“The fetus within this time frame of gestation, 20 weeks and beyond, is fully capable of experiencing pain. Without doubt a partial birth abortion is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant. R. White, Dir. Neurosurgery & Brain Research, Case Western Univ.

Also, “Far from being less able to feel pain, such premature newborns may be more sensitive to pain”…that babies under 30 weeks have a “newly established pain system that is raw and unmodified at this tender age.” P. Ranalli, Neuro. Dept., Univ. of Toronto

I don’t think there is any doubt we can agree that at some point, when pro-choice advocates would still allow abortions, the fetus feels pain and is of course ultimately killed. My comment was that it seems that alot of folks here want that avoided for chickens and animals but feel perfectly okay for it to happen to the unborn. I am pleased that Hemant can at lease admit that this is at best illogical.

Also, the film wasn’t authenticated by looking at it, but by the doctor that filmed it during the abortion.

I’ll second the Michael Pollan advice:

Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

Learn about the complete story of how the food gets to you, and make choices based on what food-production practices you want to support.

@Moose

The issue I was making has nothing to do with potential diseases of the colon-but EVERYTHING to do with starvation and death.

Yes, indirectly, we have the ability to absorb some nutrients from nothing but grass.

But-in comparison-look at a cow.

They have FOUR stomachs-that’s three more than we do.

Almost all of their energy budget is geared towards breaking down these nutrients. They eat TONS of grass to make even a kilo of “cow”.

You simply can’t live on a diet of nothing but grass. In fact-you, as both an individual (and as part of a collective) are usually given a limited choice in what you have available.

You can either starve eating grass…

…or hunt, kill and eat the juicy Buffalo that just wandered by…

Your choice.

Who said the vegan diet is based on grass? I might have to EAT this straw-man fallacy…

fritzy Says:
January 2nd, 2011 at 5:55 pm

1. We evolved eating animal protien. Certainly not the industrial-farm, antibiotic-laden, corn-fed variety but certainly, we ate meat (at least insects) in our evolutionary past.

A very small portion of the diet was meat, yes. Hunting has always been unreliable for food and more of a social thing. Plants, fruits, roots, nuts, berries and mushrooms however have cycles which can be learned easily. However, the food picking has left few artifacts in the ground.

2. The developement of the large human frontal lobe can likely be attributed to our consumption of meat.

Got proof? I always find interesting when people confuse cultural evolution with anatomical evolution. Or do our genes teach us how to make fires ? Because without fire, chewing meat is like chewing gum.

3. No civilization that we know of has ever lasted for any extended period of time on a vegan diet. None. (Some people will site India–while there are parts of India that have been vegan for periods of time, no civilization has developed, grown and lasted for significant periods in which all of it’s members subsisted on a diet free of animal protien.)

Don’t really care that much about civilization. When I read history, all I see is wars and insane quests of hegemony over other humans. And you’re also ignoring the fact of social classes. The slaves and workers have always been kept on the cheapest foods – which are almost entirely non-animal. An animal meal was a special occasion, a holiday maybe.

4. Unless you grow all of your own produce and subsist on a diet free of grains, a vegetarian diet is no better for the environment (and is arguably worse) than a diet consisting of foodstuffs obtained from local farms (fresh produce and grass-fed pasturized animals.) Large corporate farms in the US are encouraged, through subsidies, to produce more grain than is needed for human consumption. Erosion of top soil is a much greater problem than anyone is admitting, and our current agricultural model is unsustainable.

That’s not an argument against veganism, but against industrial agriculture (I agree, too). Google “permaculture”

4. We did not evolve consuming grains and legumes. Daily, mass consumption of grains and legumes did not start until about 10-12,000 years ago. Our bodies cannot handle the high carbs and subsequent insuline spikes associated with their consumption. Nor can humans process the gleuten, phytates and lectin contained there-in–these “anti-nutrients” wreak havok on many people’s digestive systems and metabolisms. Arguably, most type 2 diabetes and other “diseases of civilization” can be traced to their consumption.

First of all the “disease” of civilization argument is bullshit, and you know it. It’s been shown that those diseases are very much part of the Western diet, which is highly carnivore. Such diseases were rare in poorer countries with vegan or vegetarian diets, but those disease have been growing with spread of the meat and dairy industries. This has been proven by studying global population over the last century. There are links to processed foods as part of the problem (such as white flour and sugar), but, again, that’s not veganism.

5. Oh my various gods–meat is sooooo good! You can’t beat a grass fed rib-eye wrapped in uncured, nitrate free bacon. It will make you slap your own mother it’s so good.

It really doesn’t tempt me, at all. I look at meat-foods as pieces of cadavers, corpses. I’d rather have an apple.

“Food” for thought = glucose, (starch) loads of it. The Brain uses over 25% of the sugar in the body. Sugar deficiency leads to dumb angry people who start wars over land…

@Kaylya

Ancient culture (5000+), vegan diet, still alive today: here

I’ve been a vegetarian for most of my adult life. I think I was 22 or 23 when I stopped buying meat. I gave it up initially for a month to save money during a particularly frugal period and never went back. I find it healthier, cheaper (possibly because cooking your own meals is cheaper anyway), less environmentally harmful, and I feel that it is the moral position for me not to see another living thing die wherever possible. My children eat what I cook for them although they are of an age to choose whether or not to live as vegetarians or not. One has and one hasn’t. I’m fine with that. For me diet is a matter of personal choice. I can control where my food comes from and choose to restrict it. Nobody else has to make this choice if they don’t want to.

Our evolutionary ancestors were hunter gatherers. They survived on fruits, vegetables, leaves, grubs, eggs when they could find them, meat when they could catch it, roots and just about anything they could find. The Western diet is skewed much more towards meat than our ancestors would have enjoyed. Still we’ve moved on since then and developed agriculture and domesticated animals for food so I’m not sure if the “we evolved to eat…” argument is at all valid. It is what we do now that matters after all.

Thanks Hemant for your honest explanation. It wasn’t necessary and you don’t need to justify how you live your life but it was interesting.

Hemant,

Meat is evidence for the existence of God. Especially bacon. You can’t be a free thinking atheist if you haven’t tried it.

So while I’m not very comfortable with some of the methods used to farm and slaughter animals used for food, I’m struggling to see the difference between this and animals in the wild ripping their live victims apart. Its all part of this glorious natural world isn’t it?

I would say there are two major differences. The first is the animal in the wild is not making a moral choice – it is making a choice of survival. We on the other hand make a choice to eat meat despite other viable alternatives being available. The other difference is that the animal in the wild at least had a life of “freedom” and one that was absent of the cruelties suffered by animals in a factory farm.

The other difference is that the animal in the wild at least had a life of “freedom” and one that was absent of the cruelties suffered by animals in a factory farm.

Yes, wild animals are free from the cruelties of factory farms, but they are subject to all the other cruelties of nature: predation, starvation, exposure, natural disaster, etc…

Which is worse? I don’t know.

Let’s face it. Non-sentient beings (so far as we know anyway) have a rough life here on planet earth. If we didn’t eat them, I’m not sure their lives would necessarily be less “cruel.”

ATL,

Thank you for your input.

Moose,

Please see the quote for my post. I mentioned it because of the comment made by Hemant and others.

Glad to see the majority of people here supporting you remaining vegetarian. I’ve been an atheist since I was 8, but only vegetarian for a couple of years. My reasons, like others here, were mostly environmental and health-related, and I see no reason to abandon them.

Angus, that was a good article. I posted it to my wall. Thanks for the link.

Hemant, I saw the title and I thought oh, no, he isn’t but you didn’t. You weren’t preachy at all and it’s a thoughtful post. There’s no more reason for you to make an effort to eat meat than there would be for me to make an effort to abstain.

When asked, I have even snarkily replied “I’m muslim” only to redact the statement and explain my sarcasm…and then be left with no rational explanation as to why I choose not to drink.

Seriously? I’m a teetotaller for purely rational reasons. Of course, some obviously don’t apply to you. For instance, one reason is I know my own addictive nature. I don’t tend to be halfway about things and I simply wouldn’t want to be about alcohol as I am chocolate. But beyond that, I’ve never understood the appeal of being drunk or high or even buzzed. It always seemed somewhat crazy to me to purposely get out of one’s mind and lose self-control. There’s that too. I’ve seen way too many other women taken advantage of when drunk who would have given a good solid no were they sober.

As far as meat-eating or not, I really don’t give a damn what other people eat. I tend to get touchy (and I let that get the better of me and in way of my rational thinking on the other thread and for that I apologize to everyone) when vegans or vegetarians go on about eating meat being unethical when I don’t find it so. I’d be upset if my daughter went vegetarian or vegan and if she pushed it on my grandson because I’d be concerned about both their nutritional needs being met, especially my grandson’s as he’s a growing child. I think I’ll always be skeptical about plant substitutes being adequate proteins. However, he is allergic to beef and can’t eat that. Also, can’t eat peanuts.

Speaking of which:

When I was growing up, I was always the only vegetarian in my class. When kids brought in treats on their birthday, I had to decline… or hope that the birthday kid brought in a “special” treat for me.

Don’t feel all alone in that. It was an issue for my daughter and my grandson, neither vegetarian. I rarely let my daughter have sugar growing up because she was born with high glucose and high risk for diabetes. My grandson has food allergies, including the dread peanut. We have to be damned careful what he eats or he winds up in the ER. Frankly, I wish the schools would just ban this practice of bringing in cupcakes or cookies or whatever for birthdays.

They didn’t do it in my day and I’m still wondering why the little darlings must have it since the ’80′s. Throw the kid a birthday party at home but they can get through a school day with no more than the teacher and class wishing them happy birthday. Why is class being interupted for treats every time a student gets a year older? I know. I know. I’m a party pooper. But I really do think it’s absurd.

Epistaxis, I think it’s because he said ‘this lifestyle is good for me’, as opposed to ‘my lifestyle is good for YOU’.

Exactly. I opened up this thread with trepidation fearing Hemant had gone to preaching about being vegetarian when I had just praised him for not being so but I took a leap of faith and found a very reasoned and reasonable post. That made me happy and the usual tired arguements about ethics are rolling off my back more than they usually do because of it.

I still find eating plants no more ethical than eating animals. And eating itself is about survival, not ethics. And, yes, I admit I find eating enjoyable. And I do not apologize for finding meat tasty and desirable or for getting it from the supermarket instead of dragging my ass (even before it became crippled) out at 4am to stalk something wild or paying five times as much at a “humane” farm.

will proudly say “who cares if the animal suffers, as long as I can save two dollars, I don’t care!”

$2!!! It’s a hell of a lot more than $2!!!

the “value” of the animal is much less than my desire to eat meat. Cows, chickens, and most fish are way bellow my caring for them in relation to their taste

I said you couldn’t make a reasonable argument “that the suffering caused to you by having to eat vegetables is greater than the suffering caused to all the animals you eat” and you didn’t. You made an argument that you don’t care about their suffering because they’re not human. That’s the sort of view I’d expect from religious people that think they have a literally god-given right to act as they want, and that animals don’t count because they don’t have souls. I still maintain that you can’t, and you certainly have not, made any sort of comparable argument as to why you shouldn’t care about the suffering you cause, but on a rational basis.

-Greg –

I agree with everything you said…
except the spelling of Heamnt.

Live and live.
Or, live and let die, as the case may be.

Interesting discussion. Coincidentally, I made a post at my blog today before reading this: The Ethics of What You Take a Fork and Knife To
Some random thoughts -
1) Talk of ethics and morals can reflect more about rationalizing values than rationality. How we have acquired our values, and their true consequences, might be an illuminating question to ponder. (Culture, family, peers, personal experience, personality, acquired unconscious dynamics, even genetic influence?)
2) I’m skeptical of arguments based on the assumed conscious experience of other animals. Pain and suffering are variable enough and relative tough to gauge in humans. I’m not saying to refrain from trying to gauge it in other animals. Just don’t be over-confident of your best guess.
3) We human beings are extremely lucky to live our largely pain-free, disease-free lives. Still we experience pain and suffering and eventual death. Should we not have children to spare them pain and suffering and eventual but certain death? Or does the experience of life outweigh the pain and suffering? Could this sometimes be the case with animals for the table?
I wonder.
Me, I consider myself an omnivore. I cook meat maybe once a week.
As for my personal eating nirvana, a salad or any other vegan dish just doesn’t cut it. Give me that mushroom swiss burger from a local restaurant (but not too often). Knocks my socks off every time. As good as sex.
Speaking of sex . . . As someone else mentioned, what a wasteful activity non-procreative sex is! It’s not rational.
Almost everything we do makes some sort of footprint on the earth. Sure, it’s probably a good thing to try to limit the footprint as you see fit. But there is no best lifestyle. Just lifestyles that we prefer and/or imagine lead to a vision of the world we prefer.

With regards to your “fertilized eggs” dilemma – it seems to me as though you have other reasons not to eat eggs (such as not liking the smell or thought of eating them). So you know that even if you can’t think of an ethical reason not to eat eggs, you have the reason that you don’t like them and therefore will not eat them.
As long as you’re comfortable with your decisions and you’re not trying to make other people uncomfortable with theirs, I see no reason to change.
I personally am not a vegetarian or vegan and am not planning on starting, but I respect your lifestyle and I don’t think there are any logical problems with it. Bon appetit!

I’m not vegetarian or vegan I think I could be a vegetarian never could be vegan it would be horrible (even though I am still just getting over dairy, and egg allergies) I hate most meats, chicken, pork (incept for bacon but my mom (I’m thirteen) does not allow me to eat that very often).

Sorry if I’m re-treadig familiar gound, don’t much feel like reading 170 comments.

Very interesting post, I was always mildly curious what your religious background was. I was a vegetarian for over a decade and a vegan for a couple years. I started eating meat again for several reasons, among them marrying a non-vegetarian, but I still believe vegetarianism is a sane and compassionate way to live. I still try to eat little meat and I eat on the traditional Chinese model, that is, the meat is a small addition to a mostly plant-based diet. I found at the time, incidentally, that my vegetarianism was a lot like my atheism now; that is, no matter how low key and mild I was about it, it was threatening to people. Seriously, someone would find out I didn’t eat meat (say, I was eating MaPo Tofu) start quizzing me on why, and start making insulting and defensive remarks about the whole thing. I’ve witnessed maybe three or four self-righteous, pushy vegetarians but almost invariably I’ve found the aggressive, rude parties in these conversations to be meat eaters. It also wasn’t rare for people whom I’d made no effort to “convert” to say something to me like “well, I’m never going to give up meat”, as if I’d asked them to or something. Similarly today, theists can be remarkably pushy and still get respect, but atheists just EXIST and we ge accused of being dicks about it.

By contrast, when I was a Muslim, a member of America’s most distrusted religion, and in a red state to boot, people basically left me alone. I would go out between classes or during my break at work and do salat, I wouldn’t drink at parties, for a while I wore a beard and kufi, and people were almost always respectful and polite. The funny thing is that I, like a lot of fundamentalist Muslims, saw myself as some kind of rebel against American values, and wore “sunnah” clothing (in my case usually cuffed trousers, a kufi, and prayer beads) almost like a teenage punk rocker or something, like as a an active antagonism to secular society. And in hindsight, nobody cared. Very rarely someone would ask me what, exactly, my deal was, but it was always just curiousity. Atheism and vegetarianism, on the other hand, those really set people off sometimes.

I don’t get what the problem is. A large portion of the Abrahamic faiths are daily attempting to prove that we are animals, barely able to recognize our own faces and having just climbed down from the trees. We evolved as omnivores. We, like many other animals, eat meat. If you don’t want to, don’t do it. In the end, if you consider this planet a spaceship we all live on, no matter what food source is available, we’ll eat it to survive. This is what evolution has bequeathed us. Ask yourself this: if you were starving and the ONLY food you could find was meat, would you eat it? If the answer is yes, then you are not vegetarian. You simply choose not to eat meat if you don’t have to and there is nothing wrong with that. When you attach ethics to it you have to commit yourself to starvation if there is no other food source. If you can do that, then power to you. Otherwise, food is food. If you are not trying to kill all of a species for delicacies, food is food. It should not actually matter to anyone, eat what is available… in moderation. It’s how evolution worked out that we could survive. Food, survival, and ethics have a very small overlap. It should not be a huge deal for anyone.

And yes, I’ll eat petrie dish meat if it is safe. I’ll eat only vegetables if that is what is available. We should be eating only to survive, not for pleasure or ethics. If you kill more than is necessary for survival… well, greed gets punished in many ways.

In the time it takes most North Americans to even decide what to eat there are a half dozen children who die of starvation. Quibbling over what food is on the menu is silly if you see it that way. Eat enough to survive, protect nature where you can, feed the hungry. Ethics about meat is misplaced ideology IMO.

Mr Z Says:

Ask yourself this: if you were starving and the ONLY food you could find was meat, would you eat it? If the answer is yes, then you are not vegetarian.

This is the sort of attitude that really bugs me. This isn’t an all or nothing proposition and I hate it when either vegetarians or non-vegetarians treat it as such. All of us have our sense of ethics but none of us is perfect. Most of us on this board are probably honest people. That doesn’t mean that we have never told the odd lie. Are you seriously trying to suggest that telling the occasional lie is the same as being chronically dishonest?

Raghu

I never understand why people get so riled up and aggressive over their meat-eating. Atheist Vegetarian here… vegetarian for 10 years, longer than I’ve been an atheist.

When some people find out I’m a vegetarian they get defensive and act like I’m judging them. I’m not a proselytizing type, but if they ask me why I’m a vegetarian, I’ll give them tons of reasons. And then some people just don’t want to hear it. So then why did they ask?? Just to argue? It’s really irritating.

It’s a lot like atheism. You can choose to believe whatever you want. Just don’t force me or try to convince me that I should be eating meat. My reasons for atheism and vegetarianism are both well thought out, rational, and personal. Don’t criticize me if you haven’t given either matter serious, critical thought.

My partner only eats chicken and seafood (no mammals) and he has his reasons for doing so. I respect his opinions and choices, and love him for being so thoughtful about the subject, even if his conclusions differ from mine.

if you think meat eating isnt a matter of ethics/morals give a concise answer to hoverfrog’s
“I feel that it is the moral position for me not to see another living thing die wherever possible”

That’s his opinion; mine differs. Plants die too. As I’ve said repeatedly. We have to kill to eat and we have to eat to survive. That simple.

I don’t really care if hoverfrog or Hemant or anyone else eats meat. But it’s also none of their business if I do. I would be concerned about their health if my daughter and grandson didn’t but beyond those two, I really don’t give a flying fig what anyone eats. Neither hoverfrog or Hemant seem to care what I eat so I have no issue with either of them.

Gretchen, maybe where you live. Where I do, it’s $12 a gallon; supermarket $2.50. I’m not a millionaire. Even if it were $2, that’s $20 difference for just 10 items. That may not make a difference of having or going without in your world but it does in mine!

Aside from that farm I mentioned, the only other place locally to get free-range meats and wild caught food is a food coop that you have to pay a hefty membership fee and put in “volunteer” work hours to even buy from. I am on disability. My daughter, the mother of a young child, already goes to school full-time and works part-time. And for the privilege of paying a membership fee and giving the place free labor, you still have to pay a higher price for the food itself.

Raghu, thanks for your comment! Finally someone sees both sides rationally and even mentions the overpopulation problem! (Which is a large factor in the environmental issues.)

Mr Z

Ask yourself this: if you were starving and the ONLY food you could find was meat, would you eat it?

Yes of course. But since I think this is an ethical/moral argument it would then be a question of competing harm – in which case I would elect to save myself(or any human) rather than the meat. The question is when you have a choice why would you kill and eat the meat?(You might need a specialized diet say if your job depends on it in which case ok) or there might be other reasons – But stating that I can eat whatever I want , whenever I want , however I want is a refusal to consider that meat eating is an ethical/moral question. Whats more the very act of stating that it is an ethical question seems to be considered preaching.

Donna Hamel

We have to kill to eat and we have to eat to survive. That simple.

And the demonstrably false nature of that statement doesn’t bother you(You dont have to kill animals or eat meat to survive as millions of vegetarians will attest)?
Plants are a red herring because the argument is always a pain/suffering argument. Again you might have other reasons (for e.g. a balanced vegetarian diet is probably more expensive than a meat diet in America and you might not be able to afford it) – The question is still an ethical one.

@God Obscures Perception:

That knee-jerk defensiveness is so irritating and it permeates everything. I get it from guys like my brother if I complain about the inherent sexism of society that I have to deal with every day, as if I’m talking specifically about him and not about a general trend. I’ve heard white acquaintances do the same thing when a black person complains about the ingrained racism he/she has to deal with every day, as if they are being personally called a racist.

And, of course, the atheist thing you mentioned.

I really don’t see why people assume that a vegetarian is “judging” them by default. I’ve never assumed I was being judged just because someone said “I’m a vegetarian”.

DA wrote:

I found at the time, incidentally, that my vegetarianism was a lot like my atheism now; that is, no matter how low key and mild I was about it, it was threatening to people. Seriously, someone would find out I didn’t eat meat (say, I was eating MaPo Tofu) start quizzing me on why, and start making insulting and defensive remarks about the whole thing. I’ve witnessed maybe three or four self-righteous, pushy vegetarians but almost invariably I’ve found the aggressive, rude parties in these conversations to be meat eaters. It also wasn’t rare for people whom I’d made no effort to “convert” to say something to me like “well, I’m never going to give up meat”, as if I’d asked them to or something. Similarly today, theists can be remarkably pushy and still get respect, but atheists just EXIST and we ge accused of being dicks about it.

Oh man, do I identify with that!

I can recall several occasions in my life similar to what you’ve just described ~ where I didn’t even mention my vegetarianism (let alone ‘preached’ on the issue), and someone found out about it and, completely out of the blue, started giving me the 3rd degree about it!

It was utterly fascinating to witness someone suddenly start ‘defending’ their meat-eating to me, when I didn’t utter one word on the issue to begin with.

Any psych majors out there?

Ask yourself this: if you were starving and the ONLY food you could find was meat, would you eat it? If the answer is yes, then you are not vegetarian.

If it’s a living animal, no; if it’s a fresh carcass… maybe. If I’m in a situation of starvation where there are edible animals, but not edible plants, I’ll probably die eventually, with our without the meat, so why bother prolonging the suffering? And I have great respect for the Innuit people (who rely heavily on fish and water mammals), but their lifestyle is extreme; I’d rather die than live like that, and since I’m an atheist, my death wouldn’t really be that impressive to me… Having lived a satisfyingly moral and ethical life, I would die without any regrets.

The problem with a lot of the ‘moral’ arguments for non-meat-eating is that they quite often show a different definition for morality between the two people who are arguing. At which point, unless you can agree on what morality means, it’s pointless continuing the discussion.

That much should be obvious by the amount of times people reference the pain the animal is capable of feeling in order to excuse the difference between feeding on plants, and feeding on animals.

There is no reason why ‘the pain a being is capable of feeling’ should be considered more justified than ‘the level of self awareness a being is capable of attaining’ when it comes to moral questions (at least, unless there are further arguments behind them). All it means is that you have a different definition of morality than the other person has.

That may sound like I think morals are subjective, but I don’t, I just feel that many people disagree about the basic definition of morality. Their morals can still be objective once that definition is properly defined. (Although not necessarily – e.g. a moral code based on empathy would be subjective by definition.)

To finish off with something a little amusing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKTsWjbjQ8E

Greg wrote:

That may sound like I think morals are subjective, but I don’t, I just feel that many people disagree about the basic definition of morality.

If you’re saying that with some degree of Monty Python-ish cheeky irony, then *teehee*

If not, I have one question: how is the fact that ‘many people disagree about the basic definition of morality’ not a demonstration of the fact that morality is subjective?

Salad is murder.

AxeGrrl:

If not, I have one question: how is the fact that ‘many people disagree about the basic definition of morality’ not a demonstration of the fact that morality is subjective?

Well for one thing, I am not claiming they are all right. They could all be wrong! It wouldn’t matter whether everyone disagreed upon the shortest way to get from point A to point B: there is an objective best distance.

Many people disagree about scientific theories – that doesn’t mean that there is no objective science.

I think many people claim something is moral or not, without thinking much deeper than what is moral = what is ‘good’. They don’t then go on to try to work out what constitutes ‘good’ and why. If everyone did, then perhaps the ideas of what is good might gravitate towards a central, objective, moral standard.

What I am saying, in the broader picture, however, is that you’re not going to persuade someone that something is moral, unless you both agree on what morality is.

And the thing is, once you have knuckled down on the most basic principle of what morality is, then it can be objective. For example, if you subscribe to a utilitarian form of morality, one action is always going to be objectively better than another.

In the same way, I would say that the morals I live by are objective. My definition of what is moral is one that always leads to the same action in the same circumstances having the same moral correctness regardless of any subjective opinions.

I’ve known 2 long-term vegetarians who decided to abandon their habits for just one meal…

Meat-sweats and serious indigestion. Not pretty for anyone there at the time.

Just sayin’

I’ve been vego for 3 years, and I deeply wish I’d started earlier. I think raising kids vego (with the option to eat meat if they want) is a wonderful gift.

This book (http://www.eatinganimals.com/) is the most extraordinary, wonderful and moving account of what it means to eat animals. Highly, highly recommended.

This one (http://www.jeffreymasson.com/books/the-face-on-your-plate.html) goes into greater detail about egg and dairy production, as well as a fascinating chapter on the function of denial, with insights that pertain easily to religion.

All the best!

PS. And if you DO give up dairy (it’s not that hard – i’m lactose intolerant, so I didn’t have a choice!) then don’t worry about losing calcium: http://www.scribd.com/doc/14425812/Why-Plant-Calcium-is-Best

“I think raising kids vego (with the option to eat meat if they want)”

That’s sort of an either/or thing. If you let kids eat meat, they will. I’m personally glad my parents did; I think dietary choice that aren’t directly linked to health are better left to when a kid is old enough to make those kinds of decisions. If it matters, I feel the same way about religion.

Donna Hamel

Seriously? I’m a teetotaller for purely rational reasons. Of course, some obviously don’t apply to you. For instance, one reason is I know my own addictive nature. I don’t tend to be halfway about things and I simply wouldn’t want to be about alcohol as I am chocolate. But beyond that, I’ve never understood the appeal of being drunk or high or even buzzed. It always seemed somewhat crazy to me to purposely get out of one’s mind and lose self-control. There’s that too. I’ve seen way too many other women taken advantage of when drunk who would have given a good solid no were they sober.

Well, in all honesty I wasn’t aware of that term. Actually, I think that’s what I really do feel when I say I don’t enjoy it. I don’t see the appeal either.

Thanks for that. The first and last don’t really apply to me, but thanks. That really did help.

I’m a strong supporter for animal rights… Animals have the right to be delicious. If locking up a baby calf from moving around will make his meat more tender and juicy, I’m all for it.

Same kinda thing for animal testing. If strapping car battery to a pig is going to help mankind cure AIDS or something, there’s only 1 thing I have to say. The red is positive, and the black is negative.

Greg wrote:

If morality doesn’t exist until you have defined it to mean something (which only makes sense imho – if you disagree, perhaps we ought to concentrate on this) then, as long as the definition itself is not subject to personal experience, emotions, or beliefs, you have an objective morality.

But the bottom line problem is that morality (or defining what morality is) IS subject to ‘personal experience’ ~ there is simply no way to detach morality (its defining and everything else) from human experience.

It’s as futile as trying to detach empathy from human experience.

Morality grows organically from human experiences, feelings, relationships ~ it isn’t something outside of those things…..and those things, by definition, are not ‘objective’, no matter how hard we may try to claim otherwise.

@Mehta:

Why debate why you don’t eat meat at this point in your life? You’ve survived without eating meat for how many years now? You seem intelligent and happy. Why make such a radical change?

While I haven’t given up meat altogether (still love my fried fish), but feel that I am moving in the right direction.

Since you are not preaching vegetarianism to meat-eaters, I don’t see why any meat eater should take offense to your eating choices. That’s their problem, not yours.

Vegetarian men are hot. Alas, seems as if all the vegetarian men are taken.
I would not marry a meat-eater. The gratuitous cruelty is a turn-off.

To those who say “animals in the wild have it bad too”:
Rubbish!
This is another of the many idiotic beliefs that meat apologists keep repeating in zombie-like fashion.
Animals in the wild are not created for the specific purpose of being killed for food! Do you even know how many millions of animals a year the meat industry creates and kills???
I don’t greatly object to hunting if the hunter is skilled. It’s less unethical and less hypocritical to be a hunter than to buy supermarket meat from animals created and killed just to meet your demand.

of course you are still vegetarian. when people talk about atheism and moral, they often draw arbitrary lines and they say that we shouldn’t harm sentient beings: we shouldn’t forbid women to wear what they want, we shouldn’t support genital mutilation etc and then again, they do the same and worse things to animals – they make them live in small cages and they take their children away, they cut them in pieces etc, take a look around the world: 
http://www.homosapienssaveyourearth.blogspot.com/2012/03/animal-abuse-around-world_08.html

and all of this out of irrational belief that it is actually necessary when it is not – vegans prove it every day!
religious people also have many irrational beliefs and atheists have explanations and solutions. meat eating, nowdays…it is the biggest religion of all…

sorry for misspelling