A Pastor Tells Women How to Dress Modestly

Pastor C.J. Mahaney released a book called Worldliness: Resisting the Seduction of a Fallen World in 2008. I’m hearing about it now because the video below features audio excerpts of a sermon he delivered on modesty:

Some choice quotations:

… Campus is a loaded minefield. There are girls everywhere, and it is guaranteed that I will pass some attractive girls as I walk in between classes. I either have to be actively engaging my mind and my spirit in praying, quoting Scripture, listening to worship music, or simply looking at the sidewalk to make it through unscathed

Sometimes, when I see a girl provocatively dressed, I’ll say to myself, she probably doesn’t even know that a 101 guys are going to devour her in their minds today. But then again, maybe she does. To be honest, I don’t know the truth… I don’t know because I’ve never sat down with a girl and asked her why. All I need to know is that the way she presents herself to the world is bait for my sinful mind to latch onto and I need to avoid it at all costs.

To the girls who are ignorant, please serve your brother and have your dad screen your wardrobe. Ask him how you can better choose holiness over worldliness. He’s a guy, and he knows more than you do on the issue.

Got it, ladies? You have to dress modestly because Christian men don’t know how to stop thinking with their dicks.

By the way, if any of you can make it through that entire video without throwing your computer against a wall, I’d be shocked. I went through four laptops writing this post.

(Thanks to Indigo for the link — she writes, “I would rant, but I need to go buy some low-cut shirts and a pushup bra.”)

  • Matthew

    I was going to watch it, but I have encountered this topic before. I went to watch it on youtube, and then I noticed that comments had been disabled. I immediately lost respect for anything or anyone the video was trying to convey.

    Why release a video expressing your views if you aren’t willing to challenge those vi- Oh wait, I just remembered WHO we were talking about here.

  • S-Y

    “Adding comments have been disabled for this video.” HMM I WONDER WHY.

  • Fritz

    Sounds like it may be time for a Slut Walk in the pastor’s neighborhood.

  • Megan

    I wonder what he would have thought about the “Slut Walk” that was held in Toronto last weekend.

    http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/

  • http://wordsideasandthings.blogspot.com/ Garren

    Can I take Dr. House’s line about having an addiction but not a problem?

  • http://www.alise-write.com Alise

    I don’t know because I’ve never sat down with a girl and asked her why.

    Yeah? Then shut the hell up.

    Seriously, if you can’t take time to talk TO someone, you don’t get to AT them.

  • Roxane

    I can’t wait to tell my daughters that their dad knows more than they do about fashion. I hope they don’t hurt themselves rolling around on the floor.

  • Redheaded Ninja

    Right. Someone who happened to be born with a dick should be the arbiter of taste: I’ve *seen* the things my male friends wear and it is, as they say, to laugh. The only person who gets to have any say in my wardrobe also happens to be gay – and he only gets a say because he actually *does* have fabulous taste.
    Plus, since when is it *my* job to take responsibility for the fact that this guy is obviously a total sleaze? “I can’t look at her because of the sinful thoughts that will run rampant throughout my brain!” Here’s a quarter, jackass – go buy some self-control, STFU and never mind what the f*** I’m wearing. It’s my G-D body.

  • http://brickwindow.wordpress.com Brick Window

    I saw this earlier on Skepchick and it ruined my whole day.

    I have no words for how angry this makes me.

  • Poyndexter

    “To the girls who are ignorant, please serve your brother and have your dad screen your wardrobe. Ask him how you can better choose holiness over worldliness.”

    I don’t know anything about “holiness”, but dressing congruently with the venue seems to be a lost art among both men and especially women. It has nothing to do with fashion.

  • beckster

    Great. Now I have to walk around paranoid that some evangelical is gonna rape me because sometimes my belly shows when I lift an arm.

  • Tilley

    “Got it, ladies? You have to dress modestly because Christian men don’t know how to stop thinking with their dicks.”

    Its hilarious, the American right claim to be all about personal responsibilty when it comes welfare, healthcare or abortion but when it comes to having naughty thoughts its not his fault! No siree its those evil harlots dressing like sluts, they should just cover themselves in a veil or something..

  • Stephanie

    I hear burkas are great for covering up all that sinful worldliness…

  • http://3oaks-photography.com Dick

    C.J. Mahaney is one sick guy!!

  • Sarah

    Oh religious guilt. According to him, he has to focus his mind on scripture while he walks past pretty girls. What is so wrong about thinking women are attractive? I also wonder what his definition is of “dressing provocitively” is. Is it a form fitting shirt? A skirt? a dress? Not being covered in sweaters to hide a female form?

    “He’s a guy, he knows more than you do on the issue.” Well isn’t that lovely. Oh you poor women, so unwordly and ignorant. Ask you father or your brother what you should do.

    “No… I can’t do this to the guys.” It is not the responsibility of women to curb the dreadful lusts of men! Does he want women to wear a potato sack? An oversized sweater with baggy pants?

    Sickening.

  • Slider33

    Wow, was that an Islamic sermon preached in a Christian church? LOL.

  • http://cranialhyperossification.blogspot.com GDad

    I can imagine looking at other people’s fashion choices and commenting on aesthetics, not that it’s any of my business, but telling people that they have to wear this or that because it makes my pants fit all funny is not a grown-up response.

  • http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com miller

    If all women dress more modestly, wouldn’t that just lower the bar so that men lust after more modestly dressed women? Not only is curtailing freedom of dress a disproportionate and unfair solution to the “problem” of male lust, I’m not convinced it solves anything!

  • jen

    I think this guy needs to get a clue about comparative standards of modesty. If all women do as he asks and dress by whatever his standard of modesty is, there will become a new sluttishness – maybe it’ll be showing ankle, or wearing ballet flats that show the top of your feet. Maybe it’ll be showing a little neck, or the palm of your hand. Maybe it’ll be showing an earlobe. Maybe it’ll be letting your hair show. There will ALWAYS be something that is considered sexual. Put a woman in a complete black sack, and it’ll be “oooh, she WALKS sexy”.

  • Deck17

    I definitely do NOT agree with the reasoning behind it, but I also don’t completely disagree with the message of being modest. As a woman, I’m completely sick of the media shoving unhealthy images at young women, and of seeing girls today dress at 8 years old in a way I wouldn’t have dressed until college. (And mind you I’m only 27 myself and am not exactly a pure little flower- so this isn’t some 60′s kickback.)

    Nowhere in this sermon did it preach that girls should be wearing burkhas, just that wearing a midriff revealing shirt might not be the best choice for the school/church environment. Which I think is a standard we SHOULD be teaching students so they understand professional workplace dress. (Mind you I was labeled a “goth” in HS, college, etc- but I’m not going to wear my fishnet top and a mini-skirt to a class or community function. That’s just common sense.)

    I’m sure that these guys (who actually feel the way the video represents) aren’t the ones going to clubs/bars, so it only seems that they would like modesty in the school/work/church environment. I think this is perfectly acceptable wish.

    (How many of us women haven’t been distracted by a guy at the gym? And, man, I do enjoy watching some of those guys work out, but I’m not trying to understand calculus while on the treadmill. Do we want to be that distracted while we’re in class or at work? I think not. Because I WOULD like to be able to think with my brain and not my vagina.)

    The main problem that I have with this video is that it’s about only the men’s needs, instead of condemning the real issues at hand. Sure, it would probably be nice for guys to be able to not be distracted by hot chicks in class. (And, btw, what 18 year old guy ISN’T thinking with his dick?) But it would also be nice for women to be able to feel attractive when they are fully clothed.

    Somehow social conditioning and the media have allowed men to retain their modesty over the past few decades, while women have lost more and more of their clothing. And the whole time, the media tries to present it as “women are more “free” and that they’re “stronger” now because they don’t care what society thinks”- “they can dress however they want because they’re women”. (Man, this sounds like a teenage hissy fit, doesn’t it?)

    How is it “freeing” to dress yourself like a slut and be thought of as a piece of meat by half the guys walking down the street? It’s not- but women (myself included) have on occasion fallen into the trap of dressing that way because if you don’t, well you’re ugly, or you’re a prude, or you’re anti-feminist, or you don’t know style so you can’t really be a woman can you?

    Did you hear me? Somehow it has become ANTI-FEMINIST to say that we women can retain our DIGNITY. And that we don’t have to dress like frumped up sexpots on a constant basis. On this issue, I think most of us atheists are actually more blind that half the religious wingnuts we point fingers at and label nutjobs.

    We DO have way too many over-sexualized pre-pubescent girls in this country. We as women ARE letting the media take our modesty and self-worth away from us. And maybe you dislike the reasoning this guy has behind the message, but don’t throw out the baby with the bath-water on this one.

    I DON’T think that we need to change our dress because of some imaginary god or because some guy doesn’t want to have a f***fest in his mind, but I absolutely DO believe that women should go ahead and reclaim their bodies, their dress, and their self-worth as their own. I’m absolutely SICK of the notion that my sisters and I have to dress like objects of desire to be of value to the mainstream.

    Which is worse: 1.Dressing conservatively because some imaginary guy wants you to keep your male friends focused on more important aspects of life? or 2. Dressing like a prostitute because the media says it’s necessary, then claiming that it shows how self-respecting and powerful you are. All the while you stand their and point at girls who actually ARE respecting their worth and bodies and condemn them for talking away your freedom.

    Religion is not the only brainwash in this country. All hail the media gods.

  • Annie

    It baffles me that people can follow a god that they believe not only made them imperfect, but also broken.

  • http://Healthyhumanist.bloodspot.com Jay

    This sheds light on something I will address on my own blog at a later date. Guys, unless you go up and talk to girls you will have no idea what is going on with them. Assuming anything about anyone until actually having a dialogue with them is pointless and disrespectful. Most girls like to dress attractively and talking with them isn’t going to cause your dick to become anthropomorphic and pummel them to death.

  • Slider33

    I found that whole video disturbing, and creepy.

    Sexual repression is dangerous.

    If you are so sexually repressed you can’t walk across campus without your head exploding you have a serious problem.

    It’s perfectly natural to be attracted to women, they shouldn’t have to change just because some creep can’t control his urges.

    Seriously, some people really need to self-service more if they are that worked up about it.

  • Lauren

    Does this inspire anyone else to tramp it up?

  • TheBlackCat

    Obviously the message about women is disgusting, but there is also the false dichotomy between “quote scripture” and “think naughty thoughts”. If you really need something to take your mind off women in college, aren’t there more productive things to think about? Like maybe, I don’t know, your classes? I’m not sexually repressed, I just usually have more important things to occupy my mind with than gawking.

  • http://blog.mcmoyer.com Marlon Moyer

    I wish people would stop being around me…I can’t tell you how many times people are around me and I just get pissed off at them. Sometimes I have to look down at the sidewalk, recite scriptures, or continously pray just to make it through the day. If people only knew how the violence runs through my head and how much of a battle it is to keep it contained, they would understand that they should not be around me. They should leave my town and live somewhere else.

  • http://urbanmennoniteblog.com Ryan

    I’m all for modesty. The problem is that we as Christians haven’t really figured out a good way to encourage it without making it sound like it’s a girl’s fault if we can’t control ourselves. I worked at a Christian camp for a few years, and there was always a relationship/sex talk in training week mainly to discourage starting relationships while there because it creates really messed-up staff dynamics. The guys and girls would split, and the guys side was always great, talking about controlling ourselves. But I talked to a couple of the girls about it and apparently their side was always horrible and felt like they were being attacked.

    That, and I think there’s a huge difference between lust and sexual desire – lust to me implies intent – but that’s a different debate.

  • Jasen777

    I’m certainly not going to defend this guy. Women have the right to dress how’d they like and shouldn’t have to face any pressure to conform to someone else’ standard. (There’s pressure like that from other sources, like the fashion industry, but that’s beside the point). It’s also rather pointless since an attractive woman modestly dressed is still an attractive woman, and perhaps the “acceptability” factor makes them even more interesting to a guy thinking like that…

    There’s a lot of scorn in the comments aimed at this, and probably rightly so. But I’ve been in that place. The letter from that college guy could have been me 5 years ago. (Though I doubt I’d think to ask girls to ask their dads how to dress). So I have some sympathy for guys like that, they have what can be a major psychological and emotional problem, and it’s likely because of beliefs that were foisted on them when they were little kids.

  • http://dumnezero.blogspot.com Dumnezero

    Those guys sound like they have “Virgina Tech” or “Columbine” shooting feelings.

  • Deck17

    Just so there is a deeper understanding of the christian camp on this one, someone is going to have to explain the “creepy guys” part.

    First off, I am NOT in agreement with the thinking behind this, but it needs to be understood exactly how these young men have been raised.

    It is NOT that these guys want to grab the girls and rape them behind the old oak tree. It’s that by their specific denomination’s standard, to even THINK in a sexual manner about any women besides your wife is a SIN. The punishment for sin is DEATH. Therefor, when women dress provocatively, these men actually BELIEVE that if they look at these girls and have feelings of lust, their SOULS are at risk and they might go to HELL.

    Now, for most of us it is a bunch of crazy talk- but these guys ACTUALLY BELIEVE they may have to burn in a pit of fire for all eternity because they looked at a girl wrong. They have been indoctrinated into this thinking.

    Let’s say that YOU honestly BELIEVED THAT with all your heart. Wouldn’t YOU be a little bit upset with provocatively dressed girls? Wouldn’t YOU be thankful if they dressed a little more conservatively (as pretty much all men already do).

    I’m NOT SAYING this video is right IN THE LEAST, but I am saying that we should NOT be angry at these young men for “trying to control women”, we should be sad for THEM, and hope that over time their views will change, because (and I’m just going to guess here) their views probably do more psychological harm to those young men than they do to the women in their church.

    At many points they THANK WOMEN for saving their “souls”. From an outside view, maybe it appears they’re trying to control women, if you go stand in Jesus camp for a minute, they’re trying to say “thank you for not damning out souls to hell.”

    We’re never going to make progress or hit common ground with these folks if we don’t take a moment to really understand WHY they say the crazy sounding things they say. And maybe you and I don’t believe in it, but these folks do.

    I usually adore this blog, but seriously- there IS still freedom of religion in this country, and this guy isn’t asking any of US to change the way we dress- he’s asking other people in his religious sect who (because we DO have freedom of religion and are free people) can choose to ignore him, can choose to go to another church, or can choose to give up religion altogether.

    I grew up goth, openly bi-sexual, and agnostic in the bible belt and no one ever stoned me. If you can get away with making out with your same-gender girlfriend in the school hallways in Alabama, I doubt this guy is advocating stoning, female-circumcision, or rape-as-punishment for these midriff showing girls.

    QUIT COMPARING STUFF LIKE THIS TO THE HORROR THAT IS FORCED RELIGION WITH FEAR OF ACTUAL DEATH.

  • bob42

    This is mind numbingly paternalistic. Eve ate the apple, right? Therefore if a guy can’t control himself it’s her fault.

    “Remember Dad’s, burkas are always on sale in the bookstore after each service, and tithers get an extra discount!”

  • Dr. Cuddles

    Whats with the tone of this video, its so melodramatic. The kid didn’t die of AIDS or anything.

  • Daniel

    All the while you stand their and point at girls who actually ARE respecting their worth and bodies and condemn them for talking away your freedom.

    And there is the difference. I am ambivalent about whether someone is wearing a burka or a bikini. I do care if anyone is arguing against the right of a person to wear either.

    There are pressures in society for women to dress in a revealing fashion. There are also pressures in society for men to enjoy football and beer. Yes, if you don’t do either of those things, “mainstream” society may think oddly of you. If you’re that worked up about what society thinks of you, you have bigger problems that that. Pressures do not equate to having to do something. Heck, if we gave in to what mainstream society wanted of us, we wouldn’t be atheists. Or at least, we’d be closeted atheists.

  • Brian C Posey

    I’m trying to wrap an engineering degree. I spend my days on campus in classes trying not to fall asleep because I’m tired from doing homework the night before and studying most of the rest of the time.

    This guy is trying to take away the one thing keeping me sane.

  • http://www.oldearthaccretionist.com/ Old_Earth_Accretionist

    GRAAAAARGH!

    Geologist Smash!

  • Zoe

    It’s hard to type a response for the vomit on my laptop.

  • http://thefamilyfairchild.com Danny

    Yes, ladies. Make sure you show your dad how you’re dressed to see whether or not it gives him a boner.

  • Edmond

    Hemant, you started your quotation just a tad late, right before he says “…Campus is a loaded minefield”, he begins by saying “I am thankful god has created me to be attracted to women…”, which I find full of delicious irony.

    Because, if god had created him attracted to MEN, he’d be PISSED at god? He wouldn’t be thankful for ANY way that his god chose to make him? It SOUNDS like he wishes god had made him a little LESS attracted to women.

    Does this mean that he can acknowledge that gay people ARE “created” that way? Is that what god is doing, creating straight AND gay people? Why the animosity, then? Would he support gay people if they sought to avoid lust, by forming lasting, committed, monogamous relationships? Does he care AT ALL about MEN who dress provocatively, and what that might do to gay men, or to straight women? Or are their feelings unimportant?

  • http://seekingdesideratum.blogspot.com Hypatia

    It would be easier for them to not think with their dicks if they were allowed to masturbate. In a way, the sexual repression makes them more perverted than the next guy.

  • Jasen777

    Deck17, very well put.

  • Deck17

    And there is the difference. I am ambivalent about whether someone is wearing a burka or a bikini. I do care if anyone is arguing against the right of a person to wear either.

    Yeah, but this guy isn’t arguing against the rights of anyone. He’s simply asking his own readers and congregation to do something. Not you, not me, and he’s not arguing to politically outlaw tube tops. He’s asking his own parishioners to do something. We may think it’s silly, but by biblical reasoning, it’s a perfectly sane request.

  • Deck17

    Deck17, very well put.

    Thank you. :)

  • Richard Wade

    Ryan shared,

    I’m all for modesty. The problem is that we as Christians haven’t really figured out a good way to encourage it without making it sound like it’s a girl’s fault if we can’t control ourselves.

    I think you haven’t figured out how to not sound as if you think it’s the girls’ fault BECAUSE THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT YOU THINK! You’re just not being honest about it. You’re embarrassed by how irresponsible it sounds because it is irresponsible, but you’re still not willing to own your own feelings.

    Christian men being “all for modesty” means all for someone else’s modesty and only because of the reaction those Christian men have to someone else’s immodesty. Their reactions belong to themselves, but they’ve been blaming women for their colossal screw-ups ever since one of their ancestors made up the story of that evil seductress, Eve.

    They put themselves into a double bind. They declared that all sexual thoughts and feelings are intrinsically bad, and can only be made just barely okay by God’s stamp of approval, they declared that thinking “lustful” thoughts is just as bad as acting on them, and of course they declared that taking care of their own unfulfilled urges is an abomination. So their only recourse is to blame their self-inflicted oppression and frustration on women.

    Liars and cowards. I’m so sick of hearing their irresponsible blaming and whining.

    I have a suggestion to all men of the Abrahamic faiths: Take a burka and instead of forcing women to wear it, wrap it tightly around your head and face. Then you won’t be having those awful thoughts and feelings any more.

  • Deck17

    They put themselves into a double bind. They declared that all sexual thoughts and feelings are intrinsically bad, and can only be made just barely okay by God’s stamp of approval, they declared that thinking “lustful” thoughts is just as bad as acting on them, and of course they declared that taking care of their own unfulfilled urges is an abomination. So their only recourse is to blame their self-inflicted oppression and frustration on women.

    You dealing with two different groups here, my friend- and have used the word “they” as if they are one in the same.

    “They” Group 1: Those who assembled the Bible originally.

    “They” Group 2: Those who have spent their entire lives being raised to believe/believing in the book.

    You cannot say that the writing of the Bible is Group 2′s fault. They were indoctrinated as pre-schoolers in most cases. However, you can say that the actions/views of Group 2 may partially cast blame on Group 1. However, they are dead. And ranting about it does Group 2 little good.

    As we atheists like to run around talking about how logical we are, maybe we should quit ranting about how stupid “blah blah blah” is and realize that some of our numbers are completely ingrained with a doublethink mechanism that makes them act as if the Christians who are alive today wrote the Bible. They didn’t. They were indoctrinated as small children. And just as we wouldn’t sit back and scream about how stupid a 5 year old is, I think it’s a bit absurd to rant about that same person 15 years later acting like it “all their fault”. (Whoever “they” may be.)

  • Hollynoats

    Yeah, great advice from an asshat.

    I’m sure my (ex)step dad (also Knight of Columbus) would have been nothing but pleased to help me with fashion advice. What with him trying to have sex with me and my best friend all the time.

    Really, really good advice!

    If the excerpt made me this mad, I’m afraid to watch the whole video. Especially considering I can’t afford a new computer if I beat this one up.

  • Leah

    If my father decided the clothes im going to wear tomorrow, he would put me in a burka and we are jews, secular, but jews…or maybe just like a nun with a star of David..

  • http://sexandscience.org Sophie Hirschfeld

    This is a pretty subjective observation, but I’ve found it to be consistently true, in my experience, that my clients tend to be more religious, per capita, than the general population. When religion comes up “at work,” it is rare for the person I’m talking to to be nonreligious.

    This isn’t directly related, I know, but I suspect that the reason for that is similar to the reason for the religious being so focused on what girls wear. Their desire to cover people up seems to lead to them focusing on sex more.

    (So far, there aren’t studies on this, so I apologize for not having more information.)

  • Deck17

    I think you haven’t figured out how to not sound as if you think it’s the girls’ fault BECAUSE THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT YOU THINK! You’re just not being honest about it. You’re embarrassed by how irresponsible it sounds because it is irresponsible, but you’re still not willing to own your own feelings.

    Do you feel the need to call all Christian’s liars? or do you just pick on the one’s who actually try to talk to you about their beliefs in a very non-offensive manner?

    Comments like yours are why we atheists get a bad name.

    Asking someone to help you carry a load because you do not have the strength to carry it alone is not the same as saying you’re going to sit back and drink a lemonade while they do all the work.

    At least this guy has the cajones to admit that he needs help to follow his faith’s laws. (You, however, seem to have forgotten that being an atheist is supposed to be about thinking- something is appears you are not fond of doing.)

    Quit with the name calling and finger-pointing and maybe you’ll begin to deserve the respect you so adamantly demand from others.

  • Alice

    Lulz, I go to school and there are attractive girls EVERYWHERE!!! AAAAAA!

  • Tenley

    Reminds me of the hilarious days of Christian school. In eighth grade we had a ‘purity class’ (this is the Christian response of sex ed) And at least twice a week the class was split up, us girls had to listen to lectures on how to dress. My favorite was the super-safe side hug, complete with wrapping your arm around your boobs to prevent men from getting a split second feel.

    Christians are so fucking perverted, it’s just creepy.

  • chris

    If this guy could give himself permission to think, “Yeah, I’d like to tap that” and move on, I bet he’d get a lot more work done.

    And as has been said, this sounds like the ravings of an Islamic fundie. Burkas for all my lady friends.

    I’m not demanding respect from anyone (just equal rights and the protections that the First Amendment affords) so I’ll call this guy out. Asshat.

  • Lena915

    Wow. Just, wow.

    This guy has some serious personal guilt issues to deal with.

  • http://www.lifeasareader.blogspot.com Macha

    I believe that as a result of this moving sermon … I will go and buy a few halter tops and push-up bras. I’m just so touched. My body has some POWER man!

    Also, how am I supposed to fulfill my Christian duty to multiply and replenish the earth if I don’t score a man who wants to bang me all the time?

  • Larry Meredith

    All I can say is when girls in school are dressed sexy, it can be very distracting to the point that it’s almost impossible to ignore. Not saying that I dislike it. I loves me some cleavage. I wouldn’t want to demand girls dress modestly or force them to dress a certain way, but I wish they would have some consideration… Why must you hot girls torture us so.

  • Chelsea

    Sarah echoed my thoughts exactly. I feel just as bad for the guys who are raised to feel guilty for having natural urges. If they knew there was nothing wrong with it, this wouldn’t be a problem!

    I watched this video yesterday and posted it on my Facebook, and now everyone is mad. My brother watched it and I asked him if he thought these guys were the “new Islam”. And he said, “No… they’re the old Islam.” HA, so true. People always blame Muslims for all this modesty shit but Christians were doing it WAY before Islam made it cool.

    *Obviously using the term “made it cool” ironically. It’s not cool, at all. Just wanted to clear that up.

  • jen

    How is it “freeing” to dress yourself like a slut and be thought of as a piece of meat by half the guys walking down the street? It’s not- but women (myself included) have on occasion fallen into the trap of dressing that way because if you don’t, well you’re ugly, or you’re a prude, or you’re anti-feminist, or you don’t know style so you can’t really be a woman can you?

    Well, context is important, but when I was attending high school in midriff-baring outfits, I wasn’t doing it for fashion or to make anyone like me – I happened to feel comfortable in them. Long walk, Arizona heat – pretty normal. If some of the very strict Mormon boys felt I led them astray, they never said so to me.

    If they thought of me as a piece of meat, it wasn’t because of what I wore. A man who can look at a woman who’s showing a little midriff and think “meat” is capable of seeing “meat” when he looks at a woman showing nothing but a strip of skin around her eyes.

  • ckitching



    I’ve not once had to hold myself back from raping a woman. Not once. Never. Ever. Whatever else I may be guilty of, this has never happened, and I can’t imagine it ever will. I find it incredibly offensive to suggest that men are all barely restrained animals.

    This pastor can take a long walk off a short pier. Despicable useless idiot.

  • Deck17
  • SeniorSkeptik

    I wonder why he hasn’t followed the admonition in Matthew 5:29-If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away.

  • http://annainca.blogspot.com Anna

    Sickening. It reminds me of this article from a few years ago. I really can’t imagine what it must be like growing up in that environment. Those poor kids are being taught that sexual thoughts are evil. That feeling lust for anyone other than their (heterosexual) spouse is wrong. That sexual fantasies are something to be avoided, and, if indulged, repented of. Of course, this whole “modesty” expectation is terrible for all the young women who are being guilted and shamed because their “brothers” can’t control their thoughts. But it’s also terrible for the young men who are being taught to feel horrible about themselves for having thoughts that are completely normal. Who cares if they are “devouring” a woman in their minds? Christians continually punish themselves and others for thoughtcrime, whether it’s the “crime” of not being able to believe in Jesus or the “crime” of fantasizing about an attractive person.

    It all goes back to the Christian idea that humanity is wretched, fallen, and broken. That people are inherently “sinful,” only God and Jesus are perfect, and that lowly human beings must constantly repent for their so-called sins and imperfections. As a lifelong atheist, it’s mind-boggling that people can actually believe this stuff. Is their self-esteem really that terrible? Why can’t they stand up and feel confident in saying that there isn’t anything wrong with them? I wish there was some way to tell those young men that there’s nothing wrong with sexual fantasies and to tell those young women that there’s a great deal wrong with expecting them to change their clothing choices in order to be the gatekeepers of men’s sexuality. Furthermore, that they’re not sinners, there’s no such thing as sin or hell, and they should stop feeling ashamed of being human.

  • Carlie

    I was gonna be all “dude I just read about this slut walk thing at Feministe and it’s the same topic and all”, and then Fritz was already on it by the third comment. Well done. :)

  • Deck17

    ckitching says:

    I’ve not once had to hold myself back from raping a woman. Not once. Never. Ever. Whatever else I may be guilty of, this has never happened, and I can’t imagine it ever will. I find it incredibly offensive to suggest that men are all barely restrained animals.

    This pastor can take a long walk off a short pier. Despicable useless idiot.

    Maybe you should research what is actually being discussed before commenting- you make us all look ignorant with your remarks.

    The guy in the video is saying it’s hard to restrain himself from having any sexual thoughts about women at all- he is NOT talking about raping them. Having sexual thoughts about a woman you’re not married to is considered a deadly sin in Christian mythology and is punishable by eternity in hell. So to even THINK lustfully about a woman’s breasts or legs if you are not married to her is considered hell material.

    What the man in the video is saying is that it is very hard to remain pure all the time. I dare you to go take a walk down a busy street mid-day without having a single sexual thought. THEN, you can compare notes with the video.

  • Richard Wade

    Deck 17,

    The Bible is kept alive by people who are alive today, “Group 2.” They accept it, and embellish on it, and try to make it apply to life today. They might have been indoctrinated as children, so that might be an explanation for the intransigent nature of their attitudes and beliefs, BUT that is still not an excuse for continuing to hold those attitudes and beliefs when they reach adulthood, and like Ryan, begin to see the absurdity and unfairness of many of those beliefs. Too many of them want the carefree freedom of their naïve childhood, but they also want the power that comes with adulthood, and yet none of the responsibility of adulthood.

    And just as we wouldn’t sit back and scream about how stupid a 5 year old is, I think it’s a bit absurd to rant about that same person 15 years later acting like it “all their fault”.

    Both Ryan and Maheney are clearly not a five-year olds. It looks like they’re both adults, and as such they ARE responsible for their attitudes and their opinions. They might have a tough time changing them, but that’s their problem. Expecting somebody else, such as women, to make concessions to make their own conflicted thoughts and feelings easier is ridiculous and childish. Life is tough for real grownups. Nobody has a life-long excuse for their asinine attitudes just because they leaned them as a child.

    “I know it’s unfair, but that’s the way I was brought up” is a bullshit alibi, and nobody should accept it or hand it to someone else as a way of getting out of their responsibility. I’ve heard this excuse used to justify continuing racism, sexism, and all sorts of prejudice that the person sheepishly acknowledges is wrong, but still doesn’t want to work at cleaning up in themselves.

    You’re right, I should not include “all” Christian men, and in my irritation I seem to have neglected to include the qualifier “all those Christian men like Mr. Maheney who blame women for their own feelings.” for that, I apologize.

    However I disagree with what appears to be your stance that childhood indoctrination is an acceptable excuse for adults not honestly examining their attitudes and beliefs. An explanation is not an excuse.

    These particular people consistently and publicly lie to themselves about who is responsible for their feelings. So those particular people are liars. They are afraid to look at that, and they hide behind such nonsense as “tradition” or “dogma,” or even the offer of some well-meaning atheist’s excuse like “they were raised that way.” It’s cowardly for them to shy away from looking honestly at themselves. So those particular people are cowards.

    Quit with the name calling and finger-pointing and maybe you’ll begin to deserve the respect you so adamantly demand from others.

    Careful, now it sounds like you are the one who is making blanket statements about a group, and lumping me in with them. Check out the rest of my writing. There’s a lot of it around here. I think you’ll see that I consistently automatically give broad and deep respect to all people until on the rare occasions when someone has worked very hard to lose it. Mr. Maheney’s attitude and behavior is not just absurd, it’s very harmful and destructive. His unwillingness to own it is infuriating, and his trying to convince other men to adopt his attitude is reprehensible.

    I don’t “adamantly demand” respect from others, I expect it unless I have worked hard to lose it. If you think that I have, then don’t afford me any. Regardless of that, I will continue to treat you with respect until the unlikely event that you have worked hard to lose mine.

  • NotYou007

    I’m a guy and I’ll by my daughter a thong and a mini skirt if she wants one. I’ve already done it.

    My daughter does not dress like a slut but she does dress sexy sometimes and there is nothing wrong with it. Women like to feel sexy and look good.

    The sexually oppressed people in this world really do scare me. This guy needs to wack off a tad more. Won’t stop him for looking at women but I’m sure it will help.

  • http://jonwilburn.wordpress.com Jon Wilburn

    A tough topic to handle for anyone, for sure. Let’s face the facts, guys are generally more visual than girls. And for some men, not all, they struggle with lust. Keep in mind this is a Christian pastor with a Christian message and probably aimed more for a Christian audience.

    I can certainly agree that the message would be offensive to a “non-religious” person, but I don’t think that was his intent.

    Jon

  • Flah the Heretic Methodist

    To my son: it’s just skin. It’s just boobs. It’s just legs. If you decide to believe in God, then believe he made ‘em, as well as your brain that makes you want them. Your thoughts are NORMAL. Sexual desire is NORMAL. Heavy heated passionate lustful feelings are NORMAL. You can appreciate pretty women (or gorgeous men, if you’re inclined) for what they are. You don’t have to act on your thoughts, but if you get a chance to have some consensual fun time, be careful and respectful and ENJOY. And none of it, not one boob, not one pretty little ass cheek, nor any of those thoughts are in any way any how any time sinful.

  • http://cheapsignals.blogspot.com/ Gretchen

    Deck17,

    What you don’t seem to understand is that even if this person is speaking only to women who share his faith, he is transferring the guilt of his supposed “sin” onto them by telling them that they have a responsibility not to encourage it. This belief is not just stupid but harmful to women for that reason. He might as well claim that being hungry is sinful, therefore no one should eat anything that looks tasty around him because he might be tempted. I think we’re all well aware that having these beliefs isn’t the same as being a terrorist or a theocrat, but it’s still delusional and immoral to attempt to shame people into dressing differently to compensate for your own perceived internal failings.

  • http://melaniesellsmiami.com Melanie Dawn

    I wonder if the men in the video can say the word “uterus”?

  • Deck17

    @Gretchen By their faith’s standards it IS their responsibility to not encourage it. If they don’t like it, they can EASILY find another church, or even better, maybe they’ll question their faith and leave the church altogether. Hell, these talks are one of the main reasons that I left Christianity (and eventually ended up atheist) to begin with. (That and all the anti-gay, anti-pagan, hell-based rhetoric.)

    Call me a feminist, but I think women have the ability to decide for themselves if they want to listen to this guy or not. If they DO want to accept some of the burden of sin, that is their choice. (And if they are a deeply rooted Christian, I would not blame them for that decision.) If they want to leave the church/Christianity altogether, that is also their choice. I know what a hard decision that is, and I would admire those women for having the courage to question their faith.

    However, this guy isn’t asking anything of me or you or any atheist on this blog. And as a minister, I’m pretty sure he has the religious freedom in this country to preach what his religious text states. Now if he starts chopping off the clitorises or the women in his congregation, then we’ve got a problem.

  • cat

    @DK17, this rhetoric is used to excuse rape, violence, etc. And I have directly experienced violence and threats of violence, thank you very much (including having glass bottles thrown out of car windows as the boys inside shouted “lesbian”). I have had friends who were raped, beaten, thrown out of their homes, etc. If you have never experienced these kinds of violence, particularly sexual violence, you are the lucky exception, not the rule. Some of the things said in this video mirror the thing my molestor said about me. I was seven. This video is full of putrid, vile hatred of women and no amount of “biblical reasoning” or “upbringing” makes that okay. These are adults, a grown ass man and college students, who are old enough to be accountable for their behavior. Flimsy bullshit excuses like this are not good enough-not for sexism, not for homophobia, not for racism. Oh, and you silly notion that a woman’s value and dignity is based on how much she does and does not wear-also sexist. A woman should be able to walk down the street in a burka or buck ass naked and still be safe and treated with respect. Jen is dead on with this one, the problem is not the women and their clothing, it is objectification, something that this video praises and promotes. “I can’t talk to someone I am attracted to as if they were a human being” “I have never talked to women about this-because I only care what men think and feel” “Women are minefields” “Women are the enemy” “Good women cover up so we thank them for not damning us to hell, but those bad slutty bitches, it is their fault.” This shit is not a solution, it is a huge part of the fucking problem. Repeat after me objectification and sexism will not help the problem of objectification and sexism.

  • jolly

    Being forced to go to Catholic church as a youth, I had a hang-up about nakedness. To cure it, I stayed at a place where there were thousands of naked people walking around. After a couple of weeks I was able to walk around naked too. I don’t have crazy sexual thoughts because I know what a lot of people look like under their clothes. It works better at protecting women or men from sinful thoughts than moving toward the burkha fashion this ass is suggesting. It doesn’t matter what a woman wears, you ass, it is your problem, pastor of the weak minded.
    I find smart and witty women sexy, I guess they should shut up so I don’t think sinful thoughts.

  • http://miketheinfidel.blogspot.com/ MikeTheInfidel

    Deck17. this stood out to me in what you said:

    How is it “freeing” to dress yourself like a slut and be thought of as a piece of meat by half the guys walking down the street? It’s not- but women (myself included) have on occasion fallen into the trap of dressing that way because if you don’t, well you’re ugly, or you’re a prude, or you’re anti-feminist, or you don’t know style so you can’t really be a woman can you?

    Did you hear me? Somehow it has become ANTI-FEMINIST to say that we women can retain our DIGNITY. And that we don’t have to dress like frumped up sexpots on a constant basis. On this issue, I think most of us atheists are actually more blind that half the religious wingnuts we point fingers at and label nutjobs.

    Isn’t it anti-feminist to denigrate women who choose to dress however they like because you find it distasteful by labeling them as sluts, frumped-up sexpots, and so on? If we honestly respect women’s choices to dress however they choose, how can we attack them for choosing the way we don’t like? Sounds like a false choice to me.

  • http://seculardentist.blogspot.com Secular Dentist

    That pastor would fit in nicely with the muslims. Muslim men, apparently, are so weak-minded that all females must be covered. Even an ankle is enough to make a guy go wild.

    Next-Up, adult masks for children. That way they wont tempt catholic priests with their innocence.

    That pastor is an ass.

  • http://blog.mcmoyer.com Marlon Moyer

    I guess I’d be more willing to see Deck17′s pov if this pastor had set some guidelines for the men also….but they’re glaringly absent. It’s a one-sided sacrifice that that this pastor is asking of the women.

    In the end, the only difference I see between this and Islam requiring covering of women is that in the case a Islam, more people have grown up “indoctrinated” into the belief

  • http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com miller

    I must concur with Deck17 on at least one point. Society does pressure women to dress immodestly, and this does not contradict the idea that it also pressures them to dress modestly. Pressure can go in both directions simultaneously.

    Sometimes, people think the solution to societal pressure is to apply pressure in the opposite direction. For example, when women are called “prudes” for dressing modestly or “frumped up sexpots” for dressing immodestly. I do not think this is a good solution, but then I can’t think of a better one at the moment.

  • Richard Wade

    Modest, immodest, or somewhere in between, when women choose to dress as they do, they should be free to do so for their own reasons. All these characterizations like “prudes,” or “frumped up sexpots,” or “sluts” come from the unquestioned attitude that women are supposed to dress in such a way to protect conflicted men from their lust on one hand, and to gladden the hearts of lonely or bored men on the other.

    That’s complete horse shit. Men’s feelings are their own responsibility.

    Men, take care of your own fricking feelings, and stop expecting women to fix them for you, one way or the other.

  • sunnybook3

    I agree with SeniorSkeptik (and I’m surprised that no one else picked up on the bible verse at the very end):
    If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Good advice for these guys! Stop blaming the women and dictating how we dress–take responsibility for your “sin” and pluck out your eyes instead! Problem solved!

  • Lost In The Bible Belt

    so…whats the news here? that young men lust after young women in their hearts and pants? And its the women’s fault? um…isn’t this a really old story? It would be a story if organized religions, culture, etc would finally dismiss the old “boys will be boys” mentality. My question is: Are young Christian women tempted when they see an “attractive” young man? So lets lock those boys up!

  • liz

    When I show skin or wear tight clothing it isn’t because the media tells me to dress like that or because I’m a slut. I dress how I do because it is comfortable. Usually I show skin when it’s hot outside, because it’s refreshing to not feel constricted by clothing….people used to wear nothing or very little.

    If you can’t control your lust there is something wrong with you. And if you immediately throw out names like ‘slut’ or ‘whore’ or ‘sex-pot’ just by glancing at what you deem a little too much cleavage then you should not be surprised when someone calls you a prude or anti-feminist.

  • Fundie Troll

    @ Richard Wade

    Richard, I usually commend you for your wisdom and your cool head, but today you appear to have come completely undone…

    I have a suggestion to all men of the Abrahamic faiths: Take a burka and instead of forcing women to wear it, wrap it tightly around your head and face. Then you won’t be having those awful thoughts and feelings any more.

    Serously Richard, did someone hijack your account and spam the Friendly Atheist???

  • Deck17

    What I’m trying to say, is that women are told to dress to both extremes and often do so simply to “fit in” or “be accepted” by their communities. If a woman wants to dress provocatively SIMPLY BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO- I have no problem with this. Like I said- I get dressed up and go to clubs, sometimes not wearing much at all, but when I WANT to, not because I feel that I must. I was condemning the media for pushing SOME women to dress in ways they feel uncomfortable in situation where it honestly is not the most appropriate- like school.

    You can’t tell me that the media is not just as controlling as this guy in the video. If not more so, because the media is aimed at us all, while this guy’s message is aimed only at other conservative Christians.

    (BTW- How do you NOT think that it’s wrong that women are labeled no matter to what extreme they dress to or don’t dress to for that matter??? I used the words I used because that is often the words that society/the media use on a regular basis, and the ones I often hear women call each other.)

    And to whoever said that I think that you can use the “excuses” in the video to support RAPE- has their t’s dotted and i’s crossed. In this country, RAPE is illegal and NOTHING justifies it. But asking another member of one’s own faith to dress in a way that is preached in the faith’s holy book- especially when the one doing the preaching is actually a minister- sorry, but I think that is absolutely fine. (And LEGAL.)

    I’m not saying it’s okay that your friend(s) were raped- I was raped as a minor as well, and I know how shitty it is and that people use any excuse they can get their hands on- but that is not because of what was preached- that’s because that person was really messed up in the head.

    If even thinking sexual thoughts is a deadly sin, then to a Christian, rape is as well. Therefor, the man who raped your friend(s) was NOT following the teachings of the church. (And by Bible-based Christian standards, is probably headed to hell.)

    Finally- if you take a moment to actually read the Christian bible, you will realize there are not just standards of dress for women, but for men as well. In biblical times, the clothing of both men and women was very similar, so the rules had much more to do with hair, jewelry, and veils. Over time, however men and women have discarded the robes they once wore, and while men have chosen to continue wearing a full body of clothing, the amount of clothing worn by women (as driven by the media) has become less and less. Now, the church has discarded some of the rules- men and women are now allowed to wear jewelry and expensive watches and the like- but they do still wish to retain a certain sense of decorum in church.

    So women are asked to wear the same amount of clothing as men. As was done in biblical times. No one is trying to stick these girls a burkhas- they are simply asking them to follow the dress code of the religion.

    And seriously, if a minister chooses to write about clothing for women, does that mean he needs to go over clothing for men if there is not a biblical discrepancy in their attire? That seems a bit pointless.

    I’m sorry- but it is true, men today do not dress in a way that as sexually provocative as the way most women dress. Honestly- men wear twice as much clothing as women half the time.

    And I’m just going to go ahead and say it. If I was surrounded by a bunch of attractive, topless, tight-jeaned men everywhere I went, eventually I’d probably ask them to put some damn clothes on. I like a hot guy as much as the next girl, but seriously, could any of us ladies really focus if we were surrounded by Chippendales 24 hours a day??? I think not.

    The media says to women- “Dress hot so boys like you”, and then we get pissed off when the guys say “Put on some clothes so I can focus on my work.” I’m not saying women are wrong, or men are wrong, or atheists are wrong, or Christians are wrong. I’m saying there are SO MANY MORE FACTORS to this discussion than most people are looking at.

    Sure, you can say the minister hates women, but that is not giving the subject the respect it deserves.

  • Fundie Troll

    One more thing…where is all of this hatred coming from?? I see so many posts condeming C.J. Mahaney for this message, and I can’t figure out why…

    Ok so fine, what we call sin you call sexual repression. It doesn’t really matter what you call a Christian man’s struggle with sexual impurity, the fact of the matter is that most Christian men struggle with this problem at one time or another in their lives. Please spare me the theories why, that’s not the point. The point is that they DO struggle with these problems, the problems are real, and women dressing immodestly only fans the flames of their desire. Is it too much to ask women to at least consider the fact that their immodest wardrobe might adversely affect these men? Is that really too much to ask?

    Let me see if I can draw an illustration for you…would you, for example, have a bottle of wine for dinner in front of an alcoholic who is struggling with sobriety? The selfless, loving thing to do would be to forego the bottle of wine and therefore not tempt your friend. Would anyone disagree?
    In a perfect world women would be able to wear whatever they want, and men wouldn’t be sexually tempted by their dress. This is not a perfect world. Every action we take has a consequence, and we should be mindful of those consequences. To disregard how our actions or choices affect others is to be selfish and self-centered, and selflesness always requires some sort of sacrifice.

  • allison

    Mmm…well, maybe these young fellows might want to reconsider a faith tradition that tells them that just thinking lustful thoughts is a terrible, terrible thing. I agree with Richard Wade both when he said that being raised with these beliefs doesn’t absolve one of responsibility and when he said that transferring the responsibility of these thoughts onto women is not particularly acceptable. Deck17, Group 2 is responsible for deciding that they want to follow such teachings. If it causes too many problems, maybe they’ll think a bit about whether these requirements are appropriate and whether they truly come from a divine source.

    One thing to keep in mind when talking about college campuses in particular is that it’s not only where students take classes, it’s also where many of them live. This means that if one is on the way to a situation where dressing sexy might be desirable, one has to get there somehow. I used to do things like stop off at the computer lab to check on a long-running program after a date. Was my dress out of place there? I’m sure it probably was. However, I was stopping over quickly on the way home.

    I teach now, and while I am annoyed at the sometimes immodest dress of my female students (you only think it’s distracting from behind, you’ve not had to deal with the situation where you have to pull a student aside after class and ask him or her to start wearing underwear because you can see the very specific parts that are supposed to be covered), I am often as annoyed by the dress of the male students who have to come to the board holding their pants for fear of having them fall down. It is at least a bit amusing when they try to hold their pants and read from their notebooks while writing on the board!

  • Deck17

    I want to also add that I have absolutely no problem with a woman who CHOOSES to wear a burkha as long as she is not FORCED to do it or FORCED to be part of the religion. (I have met several women who choose to wear burkhas after converting to Islam from other religions.)

    We talk about “sticking women in burkhas” so often, yet we refuse to acknowledge that some women WANT to wear them because of their own religious beliefs.

  • http://alabamatheist.blogspot.com/ Tim D.

    Fuck this guy for glorifying this sexual obsession and portraying it as “the norm.” I can see that kid becoming a rapist — he’s already halfway to justifying it.

    For the first minute or two, they talk about the “internal struggle” against the “sin of lust,” but for the rest of the video he’s blaming women for guys’ inability to not think with just their dicks.

    It is possible. I know — I’m a guy. And I’m single. And I don’t flip my shit just because I see an attractive woman on the street.

    I bet it’s because, when I do have a “lustful thought,” I’m allowed to simply have it, and then let it go and not worry about it. I don’t have to hate myself and pretend like I’m doing something horrible and “immoral,” so I don’t become obsessive or distracted by these passing notions.

    If people were allowed to just *feel* these things without having it drilled into their heads that it’s “evil” and “sinful,” they probably wouldn’t feel so trapped by the fact that these thoughts just happen. It’s okay. You’re not going to hell. Just let it happen and move on.

    It pisses me off to see some asshole pastor in the act of psychologically manipulating people into self-hatred and self-denial, just so he can use the guilt subsequently generated to drive people to Christianity. I seriously wonder sometimes if these people don’t get some kind of crowd-manipulation or showmanship training on the way to becoming pastors.

  • Deck17

    Sometimes I wish I could get a show of hands here to see how many people actually started off being brought up as conservative Christians and made the switch to atheism. Then, I’d like to see what types of people make that switch. Maybe check out the IQ score, the level of free-thinking traits, maybe follow it up with how well they fit into the community as a child to begin with.

    I bet you $100 we’d start seeing some real similarities between these folks. One similarity being that we’d all understand the STRUGGLE it is to give up everything you have ever known, believed, and held true in the world and in return get a big unknown that doesn’t end in a sparkly kingdom in the clouds but in the total absence of existence.

    For the rest of you who started out life sans-religion or superficially-religious, or Sunday Christians who didn’t “really” believe (or whatever the equivalent is for other religions)- well, I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have absolutely no clue what you’re talking about when you say things like:

    Mmm…well, maybe these young fellows might want to reconsider a faith tradition that tells them that just thinking lustful thoughts is a terrible, terrible thing.

    Why, yes! That’s it! I’m sure that now that you’ve suggested it, they’re just going to reconsider their ENTIRE EXISTENCE because they want to fantasize about boning the girl who sits next to them in homeroom.

    Are you daft?

  • allison

    Why, yes! That’s it! I’m sure that now that you’ve suggested it, they’re just going to reconsider their ENTIRE EXISTENCE because they want to fantasize about boning the girl who sits next to them in homeroom.

    Are you daft?

    No, I’m not. I grew up around very conservative Christians while not being one myself. Often one simple, small questioning opens a WHOLE HUGE can of worms for these people. Maybe, just maybe, them thinking “Geez, this thing I’m being asked to do on penalty of hellfire is nearly impossible” is a start. Not that I assume it always will be, but it’s yet one more area for them to use the critical thinking skills that they’re SUPPOSED to be acquiring in a college setting. Here I’m not saying that they would likely throw all of Christianity away, but that instead they might be more likely to consider a different form of the religion, one that may be less restrictive in nature. The traditions in different forms of Christianity are often pretty distinct.

    Many students, when away from home for the first time, experiment with views different from those in which they were raised. This is a developmentally appropriate thing for them and is not bad. Sometimes they come back to where they started, other times they end up at a different place, but being confronted with ideas different from those one was raised with and having to consider them is absolutely part of what college is supposed to be about. Having spent over a decade working with students ages 18-22, I can tell you that it’s an exciting thing to watch students grapple with these larger ideas even when the conclusions they come to are different from mine. :)

  • Deck17

    Here I’m not saying that they would likely throw all of Christianity away, but that instead they might be more likely to consider a different form of the religion, one that may be less restrictive in nature. The traditions in different forms of Christianity are often pretty distinct.

    Thanks for the clarification, I did think you meant you were:

    saying that they would likely throw all of Christianity away

    as I have heard many people on here say should be so easy.

    And I do agree:

    it’s an exciting thing to watch students grapple with these larger ideas even when the conclusions they come to are different from mine

    Sorry if I over reacted, I’ve just been getting a lot of: “Well why don’t they just give up their religion, then?” lately.

  • Lesa

    Deck17, you complain about other people being offensive but some of the things you say are incredibly mocking and sarcastic. Take some of your own advice, pop an adult pill, and edit before you post.

    As to the subject, I have to say I have little sympathy for these boys. I’ve had plenty of devout Christian male friends who have never had difficulty concentrating when I wore a slinky dress. If anything, it was the reason I liked hanging out with Christian boys–they WERE less interested in me as meat, which was a refreshing change. So if my 20+ classmates could handle some cleavage I don’t understand what the problem is. If they truly are so bothered by it then go to a Christian campus with a dress code. If they want to make sacrifices for their faith–make sacrifices! Go to your second choice school because the girls wear sweaters in the summer. Go study in the middle east where modesty means a sheet over your head. When talking to a girl, focus on WHAT SHE’S SAYING and not WHAT HER CUP SIZE IS. This male misogynistic crap is really, really getting old, and the fact that some people on this forum are defending this warm pool of mental diarrhea as a valid position is incredibly misguided.

    I’ve never understood why people will defend insanity if it is religious insanity. If I said all the boys needed to wear skirts so I couldn’t see the bulge of their Boy Parts in their pants because it made it hard for me to focus on dentistry while worshiping the Tooth Fairy–people would LAUGH. There’d be parody ALL OVER the place. But because it’s someone’s religion–oh boy. Better start buying those long dresses and growing out your hair, girls.

  • Lesa

    And I’m not suggesting they throw their religion away–like I said, I had several guyfriends of a variety of Christian faiths who were never bothered by the way we girls dressed. I’m suggesting they think about someone other than their selves.

  • Deck17

    I’ve never understood why people will defend insanity if it is religious insanity. If I said all the boys needed to wear skirts so I couldn’t see the bulge of their Boy Parts in their pants because it made it hard for me to focus on dentistry while worshiping the Tooth Fairy–people would LAUGH. There’d be parody ALL OVER the place. But because it’s someone’s religion–oh boy. Better start buying those long dresses and growing out your hair, girls.

    As far as I know, we still have freedom of religion in the US- and if you ACTUALLY WERE part of a religion whose holy book proclaimed that men were to wear skirts, then, no matter how silly I may find your deity, I would accept that that is what your religion requires. Would I want you to be able to tell me or my non-tooth-fairy-worshipping child to do it? Absolutely not! But if you want to tell other practitioners of your faith that that is what your holy book says, then it is not up to ME to judge you on that.

    This minister is speaking to people of HIS OWN FAITH. He is directing them to follow THEIR OWN HOLY BOOK. Usually, people of a religion like to know what their OWN GOD has said for them to do. Whether you and I agree with it is COMPLETELY BESIDE THE POINT.

    Just because you don’t believe in someone else’s religion does not mean it is insanity to them. You are just as insane to them as they are to you, so maybe you should follow your own words and “pop an adult pill”.

    If you want the freedom to hold your own beliefs without being condemned or mocked, then I say respect those whose views differ from your own, else you be as judgmental as those you carry on against. (Or at least quit treating Christians like they the scum of the earth. They are a people with their own beliefs, and as far as I know, they are just as entitled to their beliefs as you are to yours.)

    PS: This minister in not FORCING any woman to dress in any way. He is asking that his parishioners follow their holy scripture. These are not his words, but those of his “god” and of those attempting to follow the scripture as it is written. The women in his congregation have the freedom to choose to follow his instructions or not.

    If we’re all going to support the separation of church and state, the freedom to be atheist, and the freedom to think for ourselves, then we also need to allow theists to believe in their gods without persecution or hatred.

    Let them believe what they believe.

  • Deck17

    And I’m not suggesting they throw their religion away–like I said, I had several guyfriends of a variety of Christian faiths who were never bothered by the way we girls dressed. I’m suggesting they think about someone other than their selves.

    And I’m saying that Christian ministers should be free to preach what their holy book says. If preaching from their own holy text is “wrong” by your standards, then you are indeed saying you wish for them to throw their religion away. This minister isn’t just pulling some strange rhetoric out of his ass, he’s teaching from the Christian holy book. As a minister, that is his job. As a minister, that is what his congregation expects of him. And as a minister who sees that his congregation is not following the rules of their deity, it would be negligent NOT to address the matter.

  • Richard Wade

    Fundie Troll,

    Richard, I usually commend you for your wisdom and your cool head, but today you appear to have come completely undone…

    I have a suggestion to all men of the Abrahamic faiths: Take a burka and instead of forcing women to wear it, wrap it tightly around your head and face. Then you won’t be having those awful thoughts and feelings any more.

    Serously Richard, did someone hijack your account and spam the Friendly Atheist???

    Trying to stay wise and keep a cool head in the face of hundreds of outrages in the letters I read can tax the patience of even a saint, which I am definitely not. Once in a while, something will make my blood boil, startling anyone who may have come to think that I’m too serene to have passion.

    I have a mother, a wife, a daughter, two aunts, a sister-in-law and several female friends who all their lives have had to live with this idiotic, immature, irresponsible CRAP about women being to blame for pretentiously pious men having a conflict between their feelings and their beliefs, and expecting women to make whatever concessions and adjustments are necessary to make those conflicts less uncomfortable.

    The women whom I love, admire and respect have been hurt deeply by this, not just because of the outward unfairness of it all, but also because the incessant bombardment has made it slowly soak into their psyches like a poison so that they struggle with thinking maybe it somehow IS their fault and their responsibility. NO IT ISN’T!

    My strident tone about this may not be to your liking, but I do not think it takes anything away from the strength of my arguments that men must take full responsibility for their own conflicts, and adults must take full responsibility for their attitudes learned in childhood. They must either live with their conflicts, or get rid of their feelings, or discard their beliefs. Trying to hand the blame and responsibility to women is not just shameful, it’s extremely destructive to society.

  • Nicole

    The bible actually has a perfect solution for this problem. I suggest these god fearing men follow the advice of Matthew 18:9 .. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

    Of course that means a lot of blind Christain men, but at least they won’t be tempted to sin anymore.

  • Zoe

    Can someone make a non-theist version of this video? There are plenty of women who really haven’t got a clue how to dress appropriately. What I see some people wear in the work place is a shocker. That said this video is ridiculous, of course.

  • Demonhype

    Let’s compare and contrast this:

    For the rest of you who started out life sans-religion or superficially-religious, or Sunday Christians who didn’t “really” believe (or whatever the equivalent is for other religions)- well, I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have absolutely no clue what you’re talking about when you say things like:

    Mmm…well, maybe these young fellows might want to reconsider a faith tradition that tells them that just thinking lustful thoughts is a terrible, terrible thing.

    Why, yes! That’s it! I’m sure that now that you’ve suggested it, they’re just going to reconsider their ENTIRE EXISTENCE because they want to fantasize about boning the girl who sits next to them in homeroom.

    with this:

    By their faith’s standards it IS their responsibility to not encourage it. If they don’t like it, they can EASILY find another church, or even better, maybe they’ll question their faith and leave the church altogether. [...] Call me a feminist, but I think women have the ability to decide for themselves if they want to listen to this guy or not. If they DO want to accept some of the burden of sin, that is their choice. (And if they are a deeply rooted Christian, I would not blame them for that decision.) If they want to leave the church/Christianity altogether, that is also their choice. I know what a hard decision that is, and I would admire those women for having the courage to question their faith.

    Why is it unreasonable to expect teh poor menz to leave their precious deeply-ingrained religious beliefs when apparently, by your own words, it is so very easy for the women to leave their precious deeply-ingrained religious beliefs? That half-assed “oh, I realize it’s a hard thing to do” doesn’t cut the mustard. You suggest that the women just leave, you suggest it’s their totally free choice if they stay to be blamed for everything, but when someone suggests that the menfolk have a choice or should reconsider their faith, it becomes totally not their fault and they have no choice in the matter because they were so horribly indoctrinated, and it’s totally mean of all us meanies here to expect a man to maybe reject a doctrine that says “your boner is the fault of that temptress in the midriff-blouse, not yours, because your penis is God’s most precious treasure”. Because childhood indoctrination is so hard to overcome and it’s unreasonable to expect them to even try–unless we’re talking about women.

    I find it amazing that you can dismiss the blatant injustice done to women with these sentiments–sentiments commonly parroted by rape apologists, BTW–with a “but it’s so HARD to leave their ENTIRE EXISTENCE in this faith!” while flippantly saying that if the women don’t like being told they’re responsible for men wanting to screw them then they can just so EASILY leave the church or religion all together. Or qualify it with a statement that it “may be hard” but that you’d “admire” them for it–while viciously attacking the very notion that perhaps men have an equal responsibility to do the same, that perhaps it isn’t the sole responsibility of the women to leave the faith that was driven into their skulls as children, and that the men should be held to blame for not questioning the beliefs they had driven into their poor defenseless skulls as children.

    Why precisely is everything the women’s fault? It’s their fault if men get boners, it’s their fault if they can’t find the strength to leave their deeply-ingrained religion, but somehow nothing is the men’s fault, ever, no matter what. And it’s totally unfair to expect them to reconsider their faith, but it’s totally fair to expect the women to just up and leave, just like that. Perhaps teh menz are the Troo xians for whom their beliefs are inherently their ENTIRE EXISTENCE, while the wimmenz are just pretending to believe–possibly because they like torturing the poor innocent males in the church. Becuz wimmenz r sluts like that.

    And apparently, by your own words, you have no more clue than “those who started out life sans-religion or superficially religious, or Sunday Christians”, since you yourself claimed that it was JUST THAT EASY for the wimmenz to leave the church if they don’t like what’s happening, that they have a free choice to go or stay. Unless, as I stipulated above, there is some kind of causal correlation between sincere religious belief and genitalia, which one could only “have a clue” about if they had been raised within the appropriate fundigelical Christian denomination.

  • Deck17

    @demonhype

    I think you forgot to read all of what you posted:

    Call me a feminist, but I think women have the ability to decide for themselves if they want to listen to this guy or not. If they DO want to accept some of the burden of sin, that is their choice. (And if they are a deeply rooted Christian, I would not blame them for that decision.) If they want to leave the church/Christianity altogether, that is also their choice. I know what a hard decision that is, and I would admire those women for having the courage to question their faith.

    Actually, let’s shorten it:

    If they want to leave the church/Christianity altogether, that is also their choice. I know what a hard decision that is, and I would admire those women for having the courage to question their faith.

    Hm… it appears I said that would be a HARD thing to do.

    Let’s look at the other part regarding men leaving Christianity:

    Why, yes! That’s it! I’m sure that now that you’ve suggested it, they’re just going to reconsider their ENTIRE EXISTENCE because they want to fantasize about boning the girl who sits next to them in homeroom.

    Well, let’s see what came before that, shall we?

    One similarity being that we’d all understand the STRUGGLE it is to give up everything you have ever known, believed, and held true in the world and in return get a big unknown that doesn’t end in a sparkly kingdom in the clouds but in the total absence of existence.

    I believe I just said it would be a struggle for the men as well.

    And when that commenter corrected me on what they had meant, I said:

    Sorry if I over reacted, I’ve just been getting a lot of: “Well why don’t they just give up their religion, then?” lately. [As if it is some easy, non-chalant kind of activity: giving up one's entire faith.]

    In the first quote, I said that:

    If they [the women] DO want to accept some of the burden of sin, that is their choice. (And if they are a deeply rooted Christian, I would not blame them for that decision.)

    Meaning I would think the women, being fundamentalist Christian would likely accept the burden of dressing more conservatively- just as I think the men would rather accept the rule of not thinking about sex.

    In neither case did I say a decision to question one’s faith would be EASY. The reason that the quote about men was more emotional was because it appeared another commenter was acting flippantly towards the decision to leave one’s faith- whereas in the section regarding the decisions of women, I was simply stating ONE POSSIBLE CHOICE that, though it is not likely and would be hard, I would deeply respect and support. I feel the same way towards a man leaving the faith.

    As I often explained to my Christian Sunday School teachers growing up: When you pull quotes out of context, and then mash them together just so you can make them say what you want them to say, you’re no longer being true to the author(s) and are lying to everyone who will listen to you.

    This is why we have Christians who are anti-gay, and atheists who are anti-thought.

  • Johann

    But if you want to tell other practitioners of your faith that that is what your holy book says, then it is not up to ME to judge you on that.

    This minister is speaking to people of HIS OWN FAITH. He is directing them to follow THEIR OWN HOLY BOOK. Usually, people of a religion like to know what their OWN GOD has said for them to do. Whether you and I agree with it is COMPLETELY BESIDE THE POINT.

    It’s taking a considerable effort of will not to explain just how deeply you’ve managed to sink my opinion of you over the course of this discussion. That’s quite an accomplishment; I’ve never seen you before (just lurking occasionally, here), and I’m generally not quick to judgment. But what Richard said above about having respect until you put in a lot of hard work to lose it? At this point, you’re moving mountains.

    You keep arguing that we need to respect this current instance of odious and oppressive indoctrination because it is prompted by past instances of odious and oppressive indoctrination.

    You keep arguing that our concern for the people whose life it corrodes should stop at the imaginary borders of their ‘FAITH’ community, arbitrarily drawn by you.

    You keep waving your hands about the terrible ordeal of the men brought up with a skewed worldview that can be difficult to reevaluate, and wave away the fact that for women, the consequences of that worldview are incomparably worse.

    I’m not going to write an essay on how the shit you want us to turn a blind eye to lays the groundwork for inequality, rape and honor killings. I’m not going to rub your nose into the pious justifications for burqas that could have been taken word for word from this video. For whatever reason, you seem to be far more concerned about the inconvenience of the men than the suffering of the women.

    But I really do wonder…

    How is it “freeing” to dress yourself like a slut and be thought of as a piece of meat by half the guys walking down the street? It’s not- but women (myself included) have on occasion fallen into the trap of dressing that way because if you don’t, well you’re ugly, or you’re a prude, or you’re anti-feminist, or you don’t know style so you can’t really be a woman can you?

    …do you really think that “dressing like a slut” is the problem in this situation, and that the normalization of obsessive male lust in this video has nothing to do with the notion that “you’re ugly, or you’re a prude, or you’re anti-feminist, or you don’t know style” if you don’t dress to appeal to men?

  • Jim

    The message reflects how hurtful biblical doctrine is to both women and men. Deck briefly mentioned that it’s not clear why people leave their faiths. I believe studying the issue closely would be filled with measurement problems, but I hypothesize that a lot of what determines whether someone leaves his religion is out of his control. We can always just say, “think more critically,” but variables like quality of teachers through high school, quality of textbooks through high school, church attendance, parents’ level of education, parents’ income, heterogeneity of the community, exposure to secular television/literature, genetics and dumb luck could really impact how likely someone is to leave a religion.

    To the extent that belief is not entirely within someone’s control, the men in the video and the women they are preaching are hurt in similar ways. The women face the conflict of whether they should feel guilty while dressing how they want (based on comfort, a desire to feel sexy, a desire to conform or whatever). I can’t speak to how great that harm is for women, but I can’t imagine it’s a good situation. Similarly, the men face the unpalatable choice of figuring out a way to overcome the most powerful desires any of us have and an eternity in flames. As a man without faith, I can say that if I believed that I had to somehow walk across a college campus in the spring without thinking about sex at all in order to avoid the eternal torture of my soul, I would be in an absolute panic. The faith is pretty clearly screwing both parties here to various degrees.

    Ultimately, I feel empathy for both the men in the video and the women they’re preaching to. For some reason they feel they need their faith. Before we impugn the faithful instead of their belief system, though, I think we need a better understanding of what the odds are that someone will deconvert, given his/her specific situation.

  • ash

    Deck17, as well as the point that you have indicated that xtian men just can’t help it because they were indoctrinated, whereas xtian women are responsible for their own actions; I do have to wonder what point you really want to go to with this –

    PS: This minister in not FORCING any woman to dress in any way. He is asking that his parishioners follow their holy scripture. These are not his words, but those of his “god” and of those attempting to follow the scripture as it is written. The women in his congregation have the freedom to choose to follow his instructions or not.

    Let them believe what they believe.

    The bible, as I’m sure you’re aware, says a lot of things, often contradictory and mostly cherry picked by followers. As an ex-xtian you must know that women are regarded for the most part in the bible as chattel, possesions, second-class citizens. The bible is used to justify homophobia, racism, sexism and any number of prejudices and harmful practises towards others. You might be happy to see these go unchallenged, or pretend they don’t have an impact on the rest of society, but I and a good many people here are not.

    You may also feel that any challenege of these positions is like asking people to abandon their religious beliefs entirely; this is demonstrably not true. There are many denominations and xtian individuals who manage not to be racist, sexist, homophobic etc. I still think their beliefs are silly and unfounded, but they aren’t having a negative impact on myself or society, and as such I’m happy to leave it alone.

  • ash

    I’ve seen a few people on here mention women dressing like ‘sluts’, and I have to wonder, what’s the male equivalent? Yeah, men can dress to appear more ‘sexy’ or ‘attractive’, but what constitutes the ‘slut’ factor? The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that the churches, the media, society etc. are only capable of seeing women, rather than men, as bodies to be used; physicalities who can only be judged (even if it is only for specific lengths of time) by their likelihood of putting out – voluntarily, coerced or forced. Attitudes protrayed such as in this video only serve to reinforce this notion.

    • Daniel Johansson

      No, Western men should all just leave the western woman for good and move to Asia where perhaps both sexed desires can be upheld on normal levels.

      Western feminist women have gone mass hysterically mad and no longer have anything attractive to the western man. 

      Just leave her for good and move to Asia.

  • Deck17

    Mother of! I’m saying that school probably isn’t the place to wear a halter top. Freedom of religion still exists in this country. And bashing Christians isn’t the way to change minds.

    I’m also saying that girls often dress provocatively for the WRONG REASONS (media, social pressures) and in the WRONG situations- like at school, work, etc. I have also stated that I MYSELF dress provocatively when going out to clubs- but because I want to, not because someone says I should. The point being that whether it is the Church or the Media, women are often bombarded with equally shitty messages.

    do you really think that “dressing like a slut” is the problem in this situation, and that the normalization of obsessive male lust in this video has nothing to do with the notion that “you’re ugly, or you’re a prude, or you’re anti-feminist, or you don’t know style” if you don’t dress to appeal to men?

    Absolutely, not- and at NO POINT did I say I agree with the message. I have been VALIANTLY ATTEMPTING to get people to look at this situation from an inside the situation POV in order to maybe think about what might HELP the situation instead of just sitting around and bashing on people for following their holy texts.

    Do I think that anyone should have the right to tell a woman what she must wear? Hell no! But do I believe that sitting on an atheist blog and calling Christians stupid, biggots, idiots and the like helps the situation at all? Absolutely NOT. The only way ANY OF US are ever going to get anywhere in making the world a better place is to develop a bit of tolerance for the situation as it is, try to understand where these ideas come from to begin with, and speak to Christians as if they are people and not the Enemy.

  • Deck17

    I’ve seen a few people on here mention women dressing like ‘sluts’, and I have to wonder, what’s the male equivalent?

    Chippendale dancers? In shape men in tight jeans and no shirts?

    And as I said earlier:

    I’m just going to go ahead and say it. If I was surrounded by a bunch of attractive, topless, tight-jeaned men everywhere I went, eventually I’d probably ask them to put some damn clothes on. I like a hot guy as much as the next girl, but seriously, could any of us ladies really focus if we were surrounded by Chippendales 24 hours a day??? I think not.

  • Deck17

    …do you really think that “dressing like a slut” is the problem in this situation[...]?

    No, I don’t. I was talking about the Media at the other end of the spectrum.

    You may also feel that any challenege of these positions is like asking people to abandon their religious beliefs entirely; this is demonstrably not true.

    Nope. But I think that saying things like:

    Does this inspire anyone else to tramp it up?

    is not challenging Christians to think, but just fueling the fire of anger that already creates the divide between the theist and atheists.

    Never has mocking people been a way to help them.

    I’m not going to rub your nose into the pious justifications for burqas that could have been taken word for word from this video

    At NO POINT did I say turn a blind eye on anything, I said that we need to understand why all this is said to begin with. I have tried to get people to step into the shoes of the “other side” for a second to possibly understand why these things are being said. You can’t change something you don’t understand.

    Of course, I also don’t find it offensive if a woman CHOOSES to wear a burkha on her own accord. I know women who have converted to Islam by choice, with no other Muslims in their family, and chosen to happily wear a burkha. THEIR choice.

    I also don’t find it offensive if a woman CHOOSES to dress conservatively. I think a woman should be able to dress HOWEVER SHE WANTS. And if she CHOOSES to dress by religious standards, I DO NOT DISAPPROVE. I also DO NOT disapprove of a woman wearing a mini-skirt, platform boots, and pasties instead of a shirt. However, I do think there is a time and place for it. (Unless the “woman” in question is a 13 year old girl, and then I just call that bad parenting and too much Media influence.)

  • ash
    I’ve seen a few people on here mention women dressing like ‘sluts’, and I have to wonder, what’s the male equivalent?

    Chippendale dancers? In shape men in tight jeans and no shirts?

    Really? So, fat ugly women in short skirts and low tops aren’t denigrated as ‘sluts’? If you see a fat ugly man just wearing skin tight jeans, do you presume ‘slut’ or something more akin to ‘bad dresser’? I must say also, I’ve heard male strippers and such called a lot of things, ‘slut’ is nowhere near the top of the list. Do you really think this is equivalent?

    I have been VALIANTLY ATTEMPTING to get people to look at this situation from an inside the situation POV in order to maybe think about what might HELP the situation instead of just sitting around and bashing on people for following their holy texts.

    So, what do you think would help then?

    The only way ANY OF US are ever going to get anywhere in making the world a better place is to develop a bit of tolerance for the situation as it is, try to understand where these ideas come from to begin with, and speak to Christians as if they are people and not the Enemy.

    I can’t think of an example where tolerating things that are wrong has stopped those wrong things from happening, can you? And a point you may have missed from me earlier, is how far are you willing to push that point? Most people here get the justifications this guy might rely on – that does not mean it’s right or even good enough. I have no problems talking to Christians as people – and that does not include treating them as if they were wide-eyed little children incapable of being held responsible for their words and actions.

  • Deck17

    So, fat ugly women in short skirts and low tops aren’t denigrated as ‘sluts’?

    Not that I know of- unless she’s trying to screw every guy in sight. I think the male term for that it man-whore.

    So, what do you think would help then?

    Probably just letting young adult Christians be exposed to the world around them. I had several friends in college who started off as Christians but changed their minds once they saw the world outside their parents homes/small communities. I often spent a lot of time talking to them about agnosticism/atheism because they would ask me about my beliefs. (At first to try and convert me, later because they thought my beliefs might suit them better.)

    Other things we can do? Be open about being an atheist. Speak openly and honestly about why we make the choices we do and why we believe what we believe. Becoming friends with Christians so that they can see that atheists are wonderful people. Raise children who are respectful, tolerant, open-minded individuals who are comfortable being openly non-religious at a young age so that other kids see that there is nothing weird about it. Work hard to eliminate religious teach/prayer/abstinence only education from our school. Make sure there is a firm line drawn between church and state. Educate conservatives on issues they don’t know much about. Help raise awareness about liberal Christian sects (such as Unity) so that even if a Christian will always be a Christian, maybe they will find a better church. Teach all children they are special. Respect young people’s ability to make decisions for themselves. Volunteer in homeless shelters, nursing homes, grief programs, mentoring programs, etc- all the while being openly atheist. Just be openly atheist and share our beliefs without anger, hatred, or disrespect. The more people see us and hear us, the less odd our position becomes.

    There are SO MANY things we can do to get our message out there- however, bashing Christians just isn’t one of them.

  • Deck17

    I can’t think of an example where tolerating things that are wrong has stopped those wrong things from happening, can you?

    Ya know- I’m actually going to go with the Christian quote: “Hate the sin but love the sinner.” for my answer to this. I’m not saying you have to tolerate the view itself, but you need to tolerate the existence of these folks. They ARE NOT bad people. Yes, they may have some shitty ideas floating around inside, but we need to show compassion and love towards them. It’s hard enough to be Christian without everyone who’s not treating you like crap. And it’s the opposite of helping. Each time a Christian sees one of us condemning them and talking about them like they’re dirt, they grow to distrust and hate us a little more. If we continually approach them with respect and compassion, maybe we’ll get a better response.

    I have no problems talking to Christians as people – and that does not include treating them as if they were wide-eyed little children incapable of being held responsible for their words and actions.

    You’re right- they, like everyone else, can be held responsible for their actions- to an extent. But you do have to realize that the conservative Christian world may be the only world that some of them have ever know. When you meet some of these kids that grew up being home-schooled in a Fundamentalist family (as did one of my best friends from college), or sent to Fundamentalist boarding school starting at age 8 (like my mom’s best friend’s kids), then you can really see how deeply engrained some of this stuff is.

    Some of these young adult lack the social skills to function in normal society. Many of them lack the ability to even communicate with those of us who are not Christian. Some of them HONESTLY BELIEVE that they will go to HELL even for befriending atheists or gays or pagans.

    Show a little compassion for these people! Do you REALIZE how completely brainwashed they are? They DO NOT need your hatred. They need your compassion, your love, and your friendship. They need to be slowly coaxed out of their shell. Some of these young adults know about as much about the world as a 10 year old, and yes, for some of them, college will be the first time they even SEE a girl in a mini-skirt. Hence the freaked out reaction.

  • Deck17

    If you see a fat ugly man just wearing skin tight jeans, do you presume ‘slut’ or something more akin to ‘bad dresser’?

    Am I in the Castro? or at a plumbers convention?

    Honestly, if you want an honest opinion of male sluts, you should probably ask a gay guy- preferably one in SF or NYC. The straight community doesn’t have nearly as many men slutting it up as the gay community does. It seems that women have less provocative standards for male clothing when it comes to hooking up at the clubs than other men do for each other. (Well, unless you’re in the BDSM scene- then most everyone is a slut and damn proud of it, straight or gay.)

  • ash
    So, fat ugly women in short skirts and low tops aren’t denigrated as ‘sluts’?

    Not that I know of- unless she’s trying to screw every guy in sight. I think the male term for that it man-whore.

    Well, perhaps it’s a cultural thing; they are in England. I don’t know if you noticed, but you also just made a complete category change from dress-style to perceived behaviour. These are not the same things. Also, I will note that there is a blatant sexual discrimination in the language you’ve heard in that it’s deemed necessary to add ‘man’ to ‘whore’; the implication being that everyone should know that word is normally only reserved for women.

    The rest of your comment is lovely, and I agree with some things, but it disregards a few points –

    -Not everyone is in the position where they can be ‘out’, blogs like these are a valuable tool to blow off steam. Perhaps it’s a tad hypocritical to not follow your own advice and understand the frustrations of some that lead them to make angry comments.
    -Being open about being an atheist and your opinions is exactly what most have done here; you’re the one viewing it as intolerance.
    -Atheists are not saints or even the same personality, it’s asinine to suggest everyone should act in the same way.
    -Some Christians see any disagreement as bashing.

    Again, how much are you willing to tolerate as justified in the name of belief?

  • Deck17

    Also, I will note that there is a blatant sexual discrimination in the language you’ve heard in that it’s deemed necessary to add ‘man’ to ‘whore’; the implication being that everyone should know that word is normally only reserved for women.

    Whore is a term generally used to describe a female prostitute (not a promiscuous woman). When it is used to refer to a promiscuous man, the word man is attached to the beginning to differentiate.

    I see this not as discrimination against women- just differentiating between two different ideas. There are many terms used for male-prostitutes (escort, rent boy, taxi boy, gigolo, call boy, etc), but using one of those to label a man promiscuous wouldn’t really work- you just be saying the guy is a prostitute. (Just as using the word “hooker” to call a woman a slut would not make sense.) I don’t really see it as wrong to borrow a generally female prostitution term and apply it to a man who is “slutting around”.

    (Honestly, when I think of the word “man-whore” I don’t think anything about women at all, I just think “slutty dude”.”)

  • Deck17

    I don’t know if you noticed, but you also just made a complete category change from dress-style to perceived behaviour.

    Both can be labeled as slutty regardless of the other. Someone can dress slutty (which from my experience in the US usually means a girl in a mini-skirt, showing lots of cleavage, wearing stilettos, and having a model-esque figure- aka: over-sexualized skinny girl) but a girl can also act slutty (trying to get tons of men into bed with her on a regular basis or sexually displaying herself in reserved situation- like school).

    (You asked if a fat chick could be “slutty” and in the world I grew up in a fat girl can be slutty in behavior, but not in appearance. To be slutty in appearance, one has to fit the societal standard of “hot” and then put on some skimpy clothes. This is true for both women in the straight community and men in the gay community from what I have seen.)

    • Daniel Johansson

      Slut or slattern is a pejorative term applied to an individual who is considered to have loose sexual morals or who is sexually promiscuous. The term is generally applied to women and is an insult or offensive term of disparagement, meaning “dirty or slovenly.”
      How is this mainly about just clothing, its more about behavior, right?

  • AxeGrrl

    sunnybook3 wrote:

    If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Good advice for these guys! Stop blaming the women and dictating how we dress–take responsibility for your “sin” and pluck out your eyes instead! Problem solved!

    Deck17….why haven’t you responded to this point?

    I mean, it’s what your ‘holy book’ demands, isn’t it?

    What’s your justification for shifting the blame that you should be owning here?

    • Paulio

      They wouldn’t have to , if   , probably ,if   females would stop  sinning by dressing  in jeans , showing their body frames  making males  sin through lust , shame on you , that do so . It’s not fare to male’s , also .

      • http://annainca.blogspot.com/ Anna

        I really hope that’s sarcasm.

        • Daniel Johansson

          No thats not sarcasm thats feminism.

  • AxeGrrl

    fundie troll wrote:

    the fact of the matter is that most Christian men struggle with this problem at one time or another in their lives. Please spare me the theories why, that’s not the point. The point is that they DO struggle with these problems, the problems are real, and women dressing immodestly only fans the flames of their desire. Is it too much to ask women to at least consider the fact that their immodest wardrobe might adversely affect these men? Is that really too much to ask?

    Did YOU miss sunnybook3′s post too? If you did, here it is again:

    If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Good advice for these guys! Stop blaming the women and dictating how we dress–take responsibility for your “sin” and pluck out your eyes instead! Problem solved!

    Stop foisting the ‘problems’ experienced by Christian males on everyone else.

    Their religious commitments are THEIRS to deal with. Period.

  • AxeGrrl

    Richard Wade wrote:

    I have a mother, a wife, a daughter, two aunts, a sister-in-law and several female friends who all their lives have had to live with this idiotic, immature, irresponsible CRAP about women being to blame for pretentiously pious men having a conflict between their feelings and their beliefs, and expecting women to make whatever concessions and adjustments are necessary to make those conflicts less uncomfortable.

    The women whom I love, admire and respect have been hurt deeply by this, not just because of the outward unfairness of it all, but also because the incessant bombardment has made it slowly soak into their psyches like a poison so that they struggle with thinking maybe it somehow IS their fault and their responsibility. NO IT ISN’T!

    My strident tone about this may not be to your liking, but I do not think it takes anything away from the strength of my arguments that men must take full responsibility for their own conflicts, and adults must take full responsibility for their attitudes learned in childhood. They must either live with their conflicts, or get rid of their feelings, or discard their beliefs. Trying to hand the blame and responsibility to women is not just shameful, it’s extremely destructive to society

    *applauding*

  • Deck17

    Not everyone is in the position where they can be ‘out’, blogs like these are a valuable tool to blow off steam.

    Blogs like this can also be a valuable place to discuss how to make really forward progress towards a world welcoming free thought. I don’t normally even speak up (though I read practically every post)- today was just the final straw in regards to watching Christian bashing. I hardly ever see anyone actually try to come up with solutions to the woes of the world.

    Perhaps it’s a tad hypocritical to not follow your own advice and understand the frustrations of some that lead them to make angry comments.

    Perhaps, but day after day I see people trash-talking people based on their faith and I really do think that is even more hypocritical. What’s more, I see it as counter-productive. It seems that by doing all this trash talking, we are making it HARDER to appear to be sane, thinking individuals to the Christians who frequent this blog- as well as looking more and more like the people we normally speak out against.

    Being open about being an atheist and your opinions is exactly what most have done here; you’re the one viewing it as intolerance.

    When people on here say that Christian beliefs are “complete horse shit” and that “it’s hard to type a response for the vomit on my laptop”. I don’t take that as simply expressing an atheist view point. I take it the same way as if a Christian said it about an atheist. Rude and disrespectful, and not helping make the situation any better.

    Sure, venting can be necessary, but this is a public space where we actually have the ability to lead by example. A place where there are several Christians reading our responses everyday. I feel it would be more useful to try to rationally discuss why things like this video happen, what we can do to help the situation, and then support each other in doing what we can.

    Atheists are not saints or even the same personality, it’s asinine to suggest everyone should act in the same way.

    I’m just asking that we respect Christians and others repressed by their own religious beliefs. How can we possibly help people to be free when we sit around and mock them for their current belief systems?

    Some Christians see any disagreement as bashing.

    Yes, some do. But plenty of Christians are willing to listen to other points of view until someone says that the best way to respond to this video is to have “a Slut Walk in the pastor’s neighborhood”. It’s kind of like saying, “Hey. I disagree with you, so I’m going to come to your neighborhood to mock you by doing exactly what you’re scared of while telling everyone I think you’re an idiot.” Talk about psychologically scarring.

  • Deck17

    AxeGrrl writes:

    I mean, it’s what your ‘holy book’ demands, isn’t it?

    I’m an atheist. My holy book is Still Life with Woodpecker by Tom Robbins, closely followed by the Meredith Gentry novels by Laurell K. Hamilton.

    What’s your justification for shifting the blame that you should be owning here?

    What exactly am I shifting blame on? First off, I’m a chick. Secondly, I think women should be able to dress however they want. (I have a bondage-mini-skirt in my closet next to my cos-play goth kimono.)

    All I’ve been trying to do is get people to look at it from the other side’s point of view so for ONCE instead of just bitching and moaning, maybe we could actually take a moment to understand why these folks think what they think. if we UNDERSTAND them, it might be a bit easier to talk to them about what we find absurd about their beliefs. Maybe actually think of ways to help the world, theists and atheists alike, instead of bash the Christians again and again and again.

    If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Good advice for these guys!

    So you’re advocating the physical abuse of men?

    Stop blaming the women and dictating how we dress

    I never said I agreed with this guy, I simply said we should all step into his shoes for a moment and think about the situation- because this is actually a really big issue with lots of points, bunches of scripture, and thousands of years of mass-culture indoctrination. Treating it so lightly by calling it “horse shit” as one commenter did is disrespectful to those subjected to the teachings and to the subject material itself.

    PS: I don’t give a damn what you choose to wear.

    take responsibility for your “sin” and pluck out your eyes instead! Problem solved!

    Does that mean I have to quit frequenting strip clubs? Because I refuse. I just recently found the ones that have dancing men.

  • AxeGrrl

    Deck17, I hope you don’t avoid responding to sunnybook3′s point.

    In any event, you wrote:

    I’m just asking that we respect Christians and others repressed by their own religious beliefs.

    I have no issue with this….UNTIL that respect supercedes the rights of others to live and dress however they please…..and blame-free.

    Again, any ‘problem’ a Christian man may have with this stays with HIM and no one else.

  • AxeGrrl

    sunnybook3 wrote:

    If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Good advice for these guys!

    Deck17 replied:

    So you’re advocating the physical abuse of men

    Oh good grief. Christian men are the ‘complainers’ here (about how women dress), and the ONLY reason they have this ‘complaint’ is because the holy book they follow tells them this.

    So, shouldn’t they be the ones to deal with their religious beliefs?

    It’s no one else’s responsibility to alter their lives because ooooh it might cause a ‘conflict’ for a Christian man.

  • Deck17

    Stop foisting the ‘problems’ experienced by Christian males on everyone else. Their religious commitments are THEIRS to deal with. Period.

    I AM NOT AGREEING WITH THE VIDEO. I AM ATTEMPTING TO HELP PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND WHY THE VIDEO EXISTS.

    The bible actually does talk about how both men and women are supposed to dress. It actually DOES tell women to dress conservatively. (It also tells men to do so, however men normally do anyway so it is not preached about as often.)

    It’s not that this guy is trying to be condescending, controlling, or rude towards women- he is a minister who is preaching what he believes will save his parishioners from an eternity in hell. He most likely ACTUALLY BELIEVES he is helping his congregation by teaching them this. He probably BELIEVES DEEPLY that his god wants him to say these things. And quite honestly, he is probably doing it all out of LOVE- as sick and twisted as that may seem.

    Secondly, he is not asking YOU PERSONALLY to do ANYTHING. He is telling the Christians in his congregation what their holy book says.

    Yes, it is sad. But you do need to realize that in the fundamentalist Christian world, it is NOT solely the man’s issue to deal with, but a burden that his “sisters in Christ” are asked by their deity to help with.

    I AM NOT SAYING ANY OF THIS BECAUSE I AGREE WITH THE VIDEO OR THE VIEWS OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. I AM TRYING TO HELP OTHERS TO UNDERSTAND THE CHRISTIAN VIEW POINT. I FIND THAT SINCE I WAS RAISED CHRISTIAN, I OFTEN HAVE THE ABILITY TO FURTHER EXPLAIN THESE SEEMINGLY-ABSURD NOTIONS TO MY FELLOW ATHEISTS. AND SINCE WE ARE ALL ABOUT FREE-THINKING, I WANT TO SHARE THESE INSIGHTS WITH YOU. LOGICALLY SPEAKING, THE MORE INFO ONE HAS, THE MORE INFORMED A DECISION/PLAN OF ACTION S/HE CAN COME TO.

  • AxeGrrl

    Deck17, if a certain person’s religion deemed ‘modern technology’ as being a ‘sin’, should people on a public bus feel any responsibility to put away their ipods if/when said religious person is present?

    Here’s what this ALL comes down to:

    Whatever religious requirements/rules a person agrees to are their concern alone.

    If I join a religion/cult that deems television viewing a ‘sin’, then I shouldn’t expect or demand that any other person alters their lifestyle in order to ‘keep me from temptation’.

    Sorry. If a religious person is that ‘committed’, then they can deal with such situations.

  • AxeGrrl

    Deck17 wrote:

    It’s not that this guy is trying to be condescending, controlling, or rude towards women

    Whether he was ‘trying’ to be is beside the point.

    He was. And there’s nothing in that deserving of any kind of respect.

  • Deck17

    Oh good grief.

    Seriously???? Do you have to find a problem with EVERYTHING? I do not support the ripping out of men’s eyes any more than I support anyone forcing a woman to wear certain clothing. Can we not be happy that at least the Christian church has gotten rid of the actual physical abuse their texts suggest? Maybe they’ve still got a ways to go as far as human rights go on a psychological level, but at least they’re not stoning anyone any more.

    Or would you rather we ask them to add that back in, too? Of course, it still won’t change the preachers message of conservative dress- because it IS in the bible- but I guess that then at least you could think it’s fair???

  • AxeGrrl

    Deck17 wrote:

    I AM ATTEMPTING TO HELP PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND WHY THE VIDEO EXISTS

    we KNOW WHY THE VIDEO EXISTS.

    And again, it’s up to Christian men to be responsible for their own behaviour and NOT expect or demand that anyone else alter THEIR behaviour in order to ‘keep them from temptation’

  • ash

    Deck17, lolwut?

    -Sluts are denoted by the way they dress, except they’re actually recognisable by their figure type.
    -Sluts have nothing to do with dress, it’s actually about their actions. Except when it’s about their dress.
    -Men cannot be sluts by dress, except when they can, but Deck wouldn’t know anything about that because men generally have to be gay to be sluts.
    -There is no sexual inequity in calling women sluts and men man-whores because one means promiscuous female and the other means female prostitute with a male clarifier, and somehow these are exactly the same things.
    -Atheists are individuals, so we should act like a hive-mind.
    -We should treat xtians like they’re normal people, except they’re not normal people. They will obviously get over this if we just treat them with kid gloves and never expect them to grow up.

    Blogs like this can also

    Then stop trying to enforce a hivemind mentality on a blog that isn’t even yours. Seriously, start your own so you can moderate all dissenting voices. I’m sure it’ll be an oasis of ‘free-thought’.

    It seems that by doing all this trash talking, we are making it HARDER to appear to be sane, thinking individuals to the Christians who frequent this blog- as well as looking more and more like the people we normally speak out against.

    When people here stop slagging off all the atheists that seek to control women, denigrate minorities and even murdering people who disagree, you’ll have a point.

    I feel it would be more useful to try to rationally discuss why things like this video happen (1), what we can do to help the situation (2), and then support each other in doing what we can (3).

    I’m aware that you don’t agree with it, but some people believe that
    1) because it’s based on horse shit
    2) point out, loudly and unashameadly, that it’s based on horse shit
    3) not slagging someone off for pointing out it’s horse shit, and instead asking the theists to demonstrate it’s not horse shit

    IS useful. You want that to change? Demonstrate it’s wrong.

    And as to disagreement and mocking by anonymous commentators on a blog that you’re already aware is unlikely to hold the same views as a xtian being ‘psycholgically scarring’? I’ve disagreed with and mocked you here. Are you psychologically scarred now? If you’re not, you’ve just shown that you think xtains are weak and pathetic. How very loving of you.

    Still not up to answering my question either I see…

  • Deck17

    Whether he was ‘trying’ to be [condescending, controlling, or rude towards women] is beside the point. He was. And there’s nothing in that deserving of any kind of respect.

    Actually, it’s not beside the point. The fact that he is most likely saying these things out of LOVE for both the men and women in his congregation IS the point. It is EXACTLY the point I am WISHING you could grasp. No, I don’t think it’s right or fair or good to tell women what they should or should not wear, but I also can’t hate a man who honestly believes he is doing what is best for these people. He REALLY BELIEVES IN HELL. He HONESTLY AND TRULY believes that he is SAVING people from an eternity of pain and suffering. That every time he gets up to speak at that pulpit he is delivering grace from his god. Maybe we don’t agree, but I’m also not going to say he is a bad person for doing something that in these people’s reality it the most holy and meaningful thing you can do- give up your life to be a minister.

    If his teaching are hurting the women and men in his congregation, then I sincerely hope that they find a way out of his church, that he finds a way out of his faith, and that all those wounds can be healed with time. However, I refuse to hate him.

  • AxeGrrl

    Deck17 wrote:

    at least they’re not stoning anyone any more

    Ooh, there’s a convincing argument in their favour!

  • AxeGrrl

    Deck17 wrote:

    No, I don’t think it’s right or fair or good to tell women what they should or should not wear, but I also can’t hate a man who honestly believes he is doing what is best for these people

    Who said anything about ‘hate’??

    You just injected that word.

    Me saying their point is invalid is NOT equivalent with ‘hate’. Shame on you for trying to slap that on me

  • Deck17

    You know what- I give up. You two will go through everything I say and pick out the one line you disagree with to start more shit slinging. In all honesty, you’re no better than ministers who preach condemnation. In fact, I’m going to go with worse- because you’re are (I thought) free-thinking individuals who, if you actually paid a shits worth of attention to anything I said, might see the point I’m trying to make. Instead, you are missing it entirely and picking out any little thing you can argue over. Instead of actually trying to understand what I am saying, you’d much rather mock me because apparently you both have sticks up your own asses. I am honestly TRYING to answer your questions so that you might understand what I’m trying to say, and no matter what I say you just distort my words more and more.

    How the hell do you expect to ever possibly help any Christian to change their ideas about the world when you can’t even carry on a peaceful, caring, honest discussion with someone who actually agrees with most of what you say? Yes, my views may be slightly different than yours, but you have at NO POINT even attempted to logically explain what you feel or make me feel like this is even a discussion rather than a one sided shove, with me attempting (not so well it appears) to defend myself against your verbal bashing.

    And for you to act like anyone who believes in religion must be bat shit insane, I’m terribly sorry, but I whole heartedly disagree with you. I may not be a religious person myself, but I can honestly understand why some people are- and it ACTUALLY DOES make sense. Yes, I think it would be more beneficial to society if they came over to atheist camp, but guess what, they think the same thing about us.

    You really need to take a moment to realize that these folks are good, decent, caring, loving people. Because to sit around and talk shit about them on a constant bases- well.. you know what, maybe I finally get the anger thing- because the way people talk about Christians on this blog makes me want to hurl.

    You are absolutely no better than the people you spout off against. All about human rights my ass- you’d strip these people of their religion if you could and have them recite anti-religious rhetoric every morning when the bell rings.

  • Deck17

    If I join a religion/cult that deems television viewing a ‘sin’, then I shouldn’t expect or demand that any other person alters their lifestyle in order to ‘keep me from temptation’.

    You are comepletely right! And guess what! The Christian faith SAYS THAT IF A WOMAN CHOOSES TO BE A CHRISTIAN SHE IS TO DRESS A CERTAIN WAY TO PROTECT HER BROTHERS AND SHOW RESPECT TO HER GOD. TO DRESS OTHERWISE WOULD BE A SIN!

    This video DOES NOT ask that the media quit promoting sexuality. It DOES NOT ask that non-Christians quit reading fashion magazines around Christian women. It does not ask that sexually-explicit music quit being made. IT IS A VIDEO THAT PLAYS PART OF A SERMON A MINISTER GAVE TO HIS OWN CONGREGATION ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE PROMISED TO DO BY BEING WHATEVER SECT OF CHRISTIANITY THIS ONE IS.

    This guy is NOT asking YOU to do anything. He is telling the CHRISTIAN WOMEN IN HIS CONGREGATION what THEIR BIBLE says.

    In being CHRISTIANS and MEMBERS OF THIS PASTOR’S CHURCH, THESE WOMEN ARE AGREEING TO FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF THE BIBLE AND THE CHURCH THE HAVE CHOSEN TO BELONG TO.

    • Daniel Johansson

      Oh how I love sane, normal and balanced christian women and how feminists repell me.

  • Deck17

    I’m done. And going to bed. Goodnight.

  • Tilly

    I think it was Stephen Fry who said, that religions are obsessed with sex the same way anorexics are obsessed with food…

    also Im changing into a mini skirt:D

  • Johann

    At NO POINT did I say turn a blind eye on anything, I said that we need to understand why all this is said to begin with. I have tried to get people to step into the shoes of the “other side” for a second to possibly understand why these things are being said. You can’t change something you don’t understand.

    What I don’t understand is why you have chosen this specific issue to dig in and play cultural ambassador on.

    Absolutely, not- and at NO POINT did I say I agree with the message.

    See, this would be more convincing if not for things like

    I’m saying that school probably isn’t the place to wear a halter top.

    And that throws your entire oh-so-earnestly hand-wringing message off. Because what women wear is a completely different issue from some men blame women for their own sexual obsession. You keep associating the two in your posts. Why?

    From your very first post:

    …but I also don’t completely disagree with the message of being modest. As a woman, I’m completely sick of the media shoving unhealthy images at young women…

    You treat the two as though they are polar opposites, when they’re simply two sides of the same coin – taking away women’s choice. But, notably, you don’t treat them similarly. You describe dressing revealingly as “losing clothing” (contrasted with “retaining modesty”), “dressing like a slut”, losing your dignity, dressing like “frumped up sexpots”…and that’s just one post. What sort of invective do you reserve for the opposite?

    “Dressing conservatively”? That’s it?

    I’m a guy. I find tasteful conservative dress personally appealing. And I do not pass moral friggin’ judgment on women who do not dress that way – the sort of judgment your comments about “dressing like a prostitute” rather heavily imply, especially after you carefully note how you would not judge a woman for voluntarily wearing a burqa.

    You really need to take a moment to realize that these folks are good, decent, caring, loving people. Because to sit around and talk shit about them on a constant bases- well.. you know what, maybe I finally get the anger thing- because the way people talk about Christians on this blog makes me want to hurl.

    Most of this discussion seems to be various people criticizing this specific idea, and at times these specific Christians for advocating it – and you defending all Christians as though we want to put them in concentration camps. Still not sure why.

    But plenty of Christians are willing to listen to other points of view until someone says that the best way to respond to this video is to have “a Slut Walk in the pastor’s neighborhood”. It’s kind of like saying, “Hey. I disagree with you, so I’m going to come to your neighborhood to mock you by doing exactly what you’re scared of while telling everyone I think you’re an idiot.” Talk about psychologically scarring.

    Are you. Fucking. Kidding me.

    Have you read the link you’re quoting? Do you understand the reason behind that event?

    Did you seriously just use a demonstration of solidarity with rape victims in the face of a victim-blaming culture…to complain about how those who blame the victims might be “psychologically scarred” by the criticism of their attitudes?

    All in trying to convince us of the benefits of a fuzzy-wuzzy detente with the viewpoint expressed in this video, which has bipolar swings between “women are a deadly weapon that must be holstered for public safety” and “women are clueless and should be guided by men”?

    Words fail me.

  • Brian

    It isn’t only christian guys who “think with their dicks.” I’ve had the salacious thought or two myself.

    • Daniel Johansson

      Dicks are awesome! so fun to play with! mine rocks!

  • Jill

    Richard!

    I love you! I also was a bit shocked at your strident tone – you ARE always so gentle. And I thank you for that!! I am a recovering fundie, taught to believe all of this and fought my way out. And I am a parent, married to a fundie, surrounded by fundies, trying to raise my children – now 14 and 12. I am alone in this sea of Christianity and “piousness” and guilt – trying to find a way free my children from this trap. You are my voice of reason. To see you react this strongly, stridently, even angrily to something that hurts me, hurts my children, hurts others – it gives me hope, encouragement, strength. Thank you for your words!! I hang on each one of them!

  • ash

    In fact, I’m going to go with worse- because you’re are (I thought) free-thinking individuals who, if you actually paid a shits worth of attention to anything I said, might see the point I’m trying to make.

    Me;

    The rest of your comment is lovely, and I agree with some things, but it disregards a few points

    Instead of actually trying to understand what I am saying, you’d much rather mock me because apparently you both have sticks up your own asses.

    Rather a stick than my head…

    no matter what I say you just distort my words more and more.

    Not an easy trick when using blockquotes…

    How the hell do you expect to ever possibly help any Christian to change their ideas about the world when you can’t even carry on a peaceful, caring, honest discussion with someone who actually agrees with most of what you say?

    I tried that originally, your responses grew ever more sexist. Perhaps you would like to re-read your rants and then suggest how one can engage in a peaceful, caring, honest discussion with someone who steadfastly refuses to adhere to those standards?

    Yes, my views may be slightly different than yours, but you have at NO POINT even attempted to logically explain what you feel or make me feel like this is even a discussion rather than a one sided shove, with me attempting (not so well it appears) to defend myself against your verbal bashing.

    Do you even know the meaning of the word ‘hypocrisy’?

    And for you to act like anyone who believes in religion must be bat shit insane,

    Quotation needed.

    Yes, I think it would be more beneficial to society if they came over to atheist camp, but guess what, they think the same thing about us.

    Yet, it’s you not me that has been talking about proselytization and conversion.

    You are absolutely no better than the people you spout off against. All about human rights my ass- you’d strip these people of their religion if you could and have them recite anti-religious rhetoric every morning when the bell rings.

    Quote me. No, wait, I will;

    There are many denominations and xtian individuals who manage not to be racist, sexist, homophobic etc. I still think their beliefs are silly and unfounded, but they aren’t having a negative impact on myself or society, and as such I’m happy to leave it alone.

    re; free-thought. I do not think that word means what you think it means. And just because people disagree does not mean that they either haven’t seen your point or that they hate you, FYI. Shouting at them in ALL-CAPS or making personal insults is a whole other matter.

    Going to bed is probably a good idea. Maybe if you come back, you could try being less of a disingenuous, hypocritical shit.

  • Jane Smith

    I emphatically do not agree with the idea that women need men to guide them on how to dress (anymore than they need men to guide them on how to think), and I think this video is both sad and pathetic.

    But I have a great deal of sympathy with the person who said (in one of the comments above) that the media put an awful lot of pressure on women, particularly young women, to show as much of themselves as they can.

    The reason why they do this is quite simple: it helps sell products and this keeps the god of materialism happy.

    No, I do not like the sentiments expressed in this video, but nor do I like the sentiments expressed in our society, sentiments that cause as much pain to young women and young men as religion. “Be pretty/attractive/sexy or go away and die somewhere.”

    And, talking of pain and psychological scarring, one of the most excruciating things these days is people (and, yes, women in particular) desperately trying to “hang on” to their youth. I can think of several women known to me personally who have spent a fortune on surgery simply because society has told them to reject their older selves.

    I gather that the “plain” movement is increasing in numbers and strength in Christian communities, and I can honestly understand why.

  • gribblethemunchkin

    Deck17 sums this up perfectly. These guys are victims of their upbringing and their faith. While we must of course oppose them and their quaint paternal and sexist ways, we should remember that they too have been abused by their own religion.

    I can’t even imagine what it must be like to go through life believing that thinking lustful thoughts is wicked or wrong or that “cracking one off” to relieve some of that tension is likely to see one tortured for eternity.

  • cat

    Deck17 does not appear to understand liberty. Liberty does not mean you accept, condone, or like what the other person is allowed to do. It does not mean that you are not allowed to criticize or think their ideas (or them) suck. Let us take free speech as an example. Glen Beck says all sorts of utter bullshit jam packed with bigotry. Free speech means that he is not criminalized for that. It does NOT mean that I have to respect him, not criticize him, or think that his ideas are good. The same principle applies to “freedom of religion”, that is a position on what the limits of state action in policing should be, not on whether or not religion is good per se. Bigotry is bad. Sexism, homophia, slavery, rape, and racism are all bad-regardless of what bullshit is used to excuse them. So, yes, any holy book that teaches these things is bad. Any religious group that teaches them is doing a bad thing. The fact that they use some flimsy theistic crap to justify their hate and bigotry does not make it okay. The guy in this video is a sexist asshole. People who think like him-also sexist assholes. You are also a sexist asshole (your ridiculous slut shaming has been called out again and again). Freedom of speech and freedom of religion mean that I do not think you should be jailed for that alone, but that does not make you any less of a asshole or make your ideas any less harmful. So cut the wooey “all beliefs are deserving of respect” crapola. They aren’t. That idea is patently false. Some beliefs are true, some are not. Some beliefs are bigoted, some are not.

    As to idea that it is hard to leave these systems. Sure, it is hard. Lots of things are hard. But you do not get an out on being a bigot or an asshole the second you have to put a little effort in to not do so. I was raised amoung racist, including a grandfather who was in the Klan. But, you know what? I did not sit around and use that as an excuse for being a lazy racist. Instead, I fixed my damned problem. And, yes, it was my problem, not the problem of the black people I was around. Just like the sexism here is the problem of the men, not the women. You have an ethical responsibility to try to act in an ethical manner, no matter what your upbringing. Besides, this is not a video discussing past issues or even one discussing an ongoing attempt to reform, this is an encouragement to continue and worsen the problem.

  • allison

    If his teaching are hurting the women and men in his congregation, then I sincerely hope that they find a way out of his church, that he finds a way out of his faith, and that all those wounds can be healed with time.

    This is what most people are advocating, to be honest. You’ve been alternating with “it’s too haaaard!” and “they really, really believe this so we shouldn’t speak up and tell them such views are horseshit.” While you have acknowledged that this is hard for the women, you’re making more excuses for the men when we say they should also consider leaving. Moreover, if you take the pluck out your eye quote slightly less literally (as I suspect these folks do despite all the “we take the Bible literally” noise – I haven’t seen a rash of these men without eyes), you’re looking at a text that tells the men to look to themselves and take responsibility for their own failings rather than foist them onto others. Yes, both sexes are to dress modestly within the Christian community but this won’t fix the larger problem for these fellows when they’re out in society at large.

    I think it’s perfectly valid to let people know that you disagree with them, even potentially that you find their ideas repulsive and why. I do find the idea that one should never think about sex except with one’s spouse highly unrealistic, and I find the idea that women bear the responsibility for keeping these men from their lustful thoughts ridiculous and disturbing.

    If you look at the quotes above, one of them just talks about an attractive girl, not even necessarily one dressed immodestly. That is the guy’s problem, not the fault of the girl walking to class. She is getting flak for existing. Honestly, I’ve had male students say “Hey, you look HOT” after I got a haircut, even though I was not at all provocatively dressed. These men are placing the responsibility for their very thoughts at the hands of women, and I don’t find that acceptable.

  • Anonymous

    A comment from Jezebel, which also posted this video

    Oh…my…God. I am a recovering Evangelical Christian and C.J. Mahaney used to be my pastor at this insane mega church. Ahhh! I remember getting lectured about this kind of stuff all the time at Jesus Camp. Ladies, you need to dress appropriately as to not lure good young Christian men to lustful thoughts. I feel like gagging now. Really glad I left that all behind. Someday I’ll write a book about all the fucked up things I was told and saw.

  • M’thew

    If his teaching are hurting the women and men in his congregation

    If that was the only thing… does he know how much he’s hurting himself? “Do not think of a polar bear now.” The man is setting himself up with an increasing obsession with sexuality (yeah, I know, something that is rather a hallmark of the more fundamentalist variants of some religions).

    Somebody get him a good therapist.

  • Larry

    Sorry all you girls who are not ‘attractive’ – only the ‘hot’ ones get my attention! BUT, I am asking for divine intervention to help me like unattractive girls ’cause I want to share my love with everyone.

  • http://crackerlilo.blogspot.com GreenEyedLilo

    This brings back horrible memories for me. It sounds so much like what was preached in my church (especially the youth group) 20 years ago, and it seems like very little’s changed. I remember being told that my habit of wearing patterned tights with knee-length baby doll dresses was “causing my brothers in Christ to stumble.” Later, when I got out, I’d wonder exactly which brother in Christ that youth pastor was talking about, because he was staring at my teenage legs quite a bit.

    Nobody wore halter tops, crop tops, etc. It just seemed like any young woman who had any attractive body part and dressed like she wasn’t completely ashamed of it got a lecture. We got lectured as a group quite often, too, in front of guys. Men and boys got almost nothing about how they dressed, even if they wore tight jeans. They got endless crap about “temptation.”

    So, in summation: Girls and women are being told they are responsible for men’s sexuality, that they are causing a man to sin if they just try to look cute, and that their sexual feelings don’t matter. Boys and men are being told that a too-short dress can cause them to sin, that they can be made rapaciously horny at a moment’s notice, and that some women are “advertising” their sexuality. I don’t see a recipe for disaster in inter-gender relations later in life, do you?

  • http://crackerlilo.blogspot.com GreenEyedLilo

    If all women dress more modestly, wouldn’t that just lower the bar so that men lust after more modestly dressed women?

    I’ve heard a couple of friends who immigrated from the Middle East say exactly that–that men in their countries go crazy over fully-exposed hair, faces, a bit of calf, collarbone, that kind of thing. One told a story of how scary it got for her when her head scarf slipped and showed her hair. She doesn’t wear one here, and she’s not scared anymore. Of course, if the CJ Mahaneys of the world have their way, there would be a lot more fear.

  • Douglas Kirk

    “To be honest, I don’t know the truth… I don’t know because I’ve never sat down with a girl and asked her why.”

    That says everything I need to know to completely ignore his opinion.

    Scumbag.

  • gsw

    I really don’t see the problem – we just force all men to wear blindfolds. After all, if muslim women can be forced to wear modesty sacks why shouldn’t those men, who cannot control their lusts, be told to wear blindfolds – or blinkers – or chastity belts?

    Seems its about time the perps were penalised rather than the victims.

  • Silent Service

    I have a suggestion to all men of the Abrahamic faiths: Take a burka and instead of forcing women to wear it, wrap it tightly around your head and face. Then you won’t be having those awful thoughts and feelings any more.

    Wow Richard. I agree, but I think that’s the angriest I’ve ever seen your writing.

    • Daniel Johansson

      Ok, Than take a christmas tree, shove it up your ass and do the hokie pokie around  your fine countenance . 

      Im not muslim, but i think they need some defending here.

  • http://hoverFrog.wordpress.com hoverfrog

    So rather than view a woman as a person he views them as objects that invite “sinful” thoughts. At least we all know where this particular branch Club Christian stands.

    I’m going to continue to find women attractive. I’m going to continue to appreciate woman for who they are. There is something that is just beautiful about the female form and I don’t want to deny myself something that is beautiful. There is something beautiful about the person beyond just the way they look but you’ll never find that out if you can’t work past you’re petty hang ups about sex.

    I think that it is extremely presumptuous to tell a woman how she should dress. How about you wear a tutu for a week. I think it would look good on you. I don’t have any right to say that but do it anyway. Just the tutu, nothing else. Prick.

    If a woman dressed “immodestly” then maybe she just wants to show her body off. It is her body and it may very well be a beautiful body. I appreciate it. Other people appreciate it. She may well appreciate looking beautiful just because she can. Good for her.

    Can I have those 8.5 minutes back now please?

    • Daniel Johansson

      Yes and perhaps men can also be free to choose not to engage in relationships with such women if we may?

  • JenV

    I keep getting Fundie Troll and Deck17 mixed up.

    I had a lovely response typed out last night and it got eated by the blog. Too bad…it had something to do with wondering why Deck17 is being such a fucking apologist. It seems that it’s also immensely difficult for Deck17 to understand WHY we tell the Christians, pastors and their holy books to bugger off. No one’s saying the pastors don’t have a right to preach what they preach to their own congregation. Everyone, however, is saying what they preach is absolute insanity. Stop defending their Christian nonsense.

    Angry or not, Richard says it best:

    I have a suggestion to all men of the Abrahamic faiths: Take a burka and instead of forcing women to wear it, wrap it tightly around your head and face. Then you won’t be having those awful thoughts and feelings any more.

    In no way, shape or form is it ever the “offender’s” obligation to change what they do (or wear) to appease the offended.

  • http://www.crasch.net CRasch

    Post on the guy’s channel page.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/identity313

  • Jeebus

    Islam or Christianity? I can’t decide. Fucktard!

  • http://www.sarahtrachtenberg.com Sarah Trachtenberg

    I blogged about modesty in Xian girls’ dress, too.
    I’m pretty sure a hundred guys, Xian or not, didn’t devour me in their minds any time I wore a short skirt or showed any cleavage. This is ridiculous!

  • Steve

    I’ve seen a few people on here mention women dressing like ‘sluts’, and I have to wonder, what’s the male equivalent?

    Considering the few television shows that have large amounts of equal opportunity eye candy (“True Blood” and “Spartacus”. To a lesser extend maybe “Supernatural” and “Battlestar Galactica”), I’d say well-muscled, buffed up men who are topless.

    It seems to me that women can simply show off their bodies when more easily when dressed. While men need to at least remove their shirts. Except maybe for wearing tight pants to emphasize the butt.

    • Daniel Johansson

      Its more like, Men can be more frequently aroused because their even production of  testosterone,  Men- frequently

      Women are periodly aroused because of their menstrual cycle and hormonal balance between estrogen, progesterone and other hormones. Women-periodly

  • http://crackerlilo.blogspot.com GreenEyedLilo

    Seen this morning on Twitter, via @Egyptocracy, some images meant to compel women to wear the niqab. Both compare women to candy and men to flies:

    http://sarahstil.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/hijab1wp1.jpg

    http://twitpic.com/4hm9w8

    I realize that there are significant differences of degree and culture, but the attitudes behind these images and CJ Mahaney’s speech seem awfully similar to me. Yet Mahaney probably thinks Islam and sharia law are evil, evil, evil.

  • allison

    This brings back horrible memories for me. It sounds so much like what was preached in my church (especially the youth group) 20 years ago, and it seems like very little’s changed. I remember being told that my habit of wearing patterned tights with knee-length baby doll dresses was “causing my brothers in Christ to stumble.” Later, when I got out, I’d wonder exactly which brother in Christ that youth pastor was talking about, because he was staring at my teenage legs quite a bit.

    Nobody wore halter tops, crop tops, etc. It just seemed like any young woman who had any attractive body part and dressed like she wasn’t completely ashamed of it got a lecture. We got lectured as a group quite often, too, in front of guys. Men and boys got almost nothing about how they dressed, even if they wore tight jeans. They got endless crap about “temptation.”

    This, particularly the bolded part, is why I get so riled up about these things. I grew up around people like this, and being female myself it’s very easy to put myself in the place of those girls. It’s important to understand that pressuring girls and women inside the faith to dress in such a way as to not encourage any lustful thoughts really means that there is no dress that is modest enough. They can’t control what is in someone else’s brain and putting that sort of responsibility upon them puts them in an impossible place. You can be covered with only one’s hands and face showing and SOMEONE will still find you attractive and may experience lust for you.

    I cannot be completely responsible for what happens in your head. I can try to nudge things a certain way, sure, but I can’t reach into your brain and prevent you from having certain thoughts.

    Moreover, if the stage is set for the boys or men to be constantly on guard against temptation, they’re going to find it in everything. It encourages the boys and men in the audience to view girls and women as vehicles of lust that they have to constantly guard against. It reduces them to objects.

  • ash

    @Steve, do you also buy into the assertion that only attractive people can ever dress like sluts? If so, this means that dress really has FA to do with anything then.

    Along the same lines, I disagree with the idea that women can show off their bodies more easily when dressed – unless you wrap up like a snowman, breasts are usually difficult to hide. This does not mean that by not wrapping up like a snowman you are showing them off. It means that some people will judge you merely for showing any sign of being female.

  • Steve

    @ash
    You can easily find examples of overweight (or otherwise less attractive) women dressing in form-fitting or revealing clothing. Whether that has the desired effect on most people is another matter. Usually it’s considered a bit silly – depending on how overweight she is.

    As for your breast comment. I meant that it’s easier for women to show their curves than for men to show their muscles for example.
    I guess I should have said “show” instead of “show off”. I didn’t necessarily mean that they always want to arouse other people with it.

  • Valhar2000

    Got it, ladies? You have to dress modestly because Christian men don’t know how to stop thinking with their dicks.

    Well, everyone said that my dick could never learn calculus: they were wrong!

    • Daniel Johansson

      Yeah salute your cock! Worlds finest invention!

    • VelvetVoice

      Now, that’s something I’d like to see!

  • ash

    @Steve, yes, I’m well aware, my point is not about ‘desired effect’; without asking the individual, that’s merely conjecture. If a short skirt and low cut top, for example, are ‘slutty dress’, does that change according to the figure that dons it?

    The other point you got backwards – it’s harder for a woman to disguise her form than a man. Yet, if she doesn’t, she’s judged for it. As you’ve stated, a man has to get semi-nude to be dressed ‘slutty’. A woman can be accused even whilst covered head to toe, as long as you can tell she’s got a female figure.

  • DeeAnn

    there’s no need to get defensive or offensive or vehement towards this man. just as a woman, with a no or little moral standard dictating the way she dresses, has a right to draw attention to the most sensual parts of her body by her dress, other people have a right to comment on it. this man in not “sexually repressed” or a “pervert” or “sleaze” because looking at a scantily clad woman makes him think of sex. just like it’s unreasonable for a woman wearing a push-up bra and a deep v-neck to say “hey, my eyes are up here!” with any valid indiganation. we know men are visual.in a perfect world, yes, men would all have 100% self-control and wouldnt be affected by minimally dresses women (which leads to the question of whether then women would dress so minimally.), but for the time being, dealing with the world we actually live in, women cannot just completely shirk responsibility for the consequences that may come from how they choose to present themselves.
    so many people who i have encountered that would like to think themselves liberal or open-minded, react with such intolorence towards christianity and its precepts.most of the comments on this post aren’t rational arguments that level-headedly and non-biasely take both sides into consideration, but rather a yea-let’s-bash-the-christian-because-we-feel-threatened-that-someone-is-actually-questioning-the-way-we-live fest. within his belief system he makes sense. if you dont understand his belief system then it doesnt make sense to you. he’s not trying to enact legislation so it really isnt anything to get so up in arms about.

  • Jeanette

    Wow, Richard Wade! You know that quote, “the measure of a person is what makes them angry” or something? Yeah, that reminds me of you. Thanks for being amazingly awesome!!

  • Yakamoz

    @Steve: Men’s muscles are not homologous to women’s breasts or hips.

    To be comparable, you’d have to look at the actual secondary sex characteristics of men: chests and hips.

    Imagine a world where boys had to hide the fact that their chests were wider and deeper than women’s chests, that their waist-to-hip ratio was >1, that their voicebox was the size of a nickel instead of a dime. Instead of burkas, men would wear corsets, collars, and hip pads.

    Something like this dress should work:
    http://www.artknowledgenews.com/files2009a/Wedding_dress_de_Holstein.jpg

    Corsets are necessary because boys weren’t created with a normal hourglass figure. They may not be equal to women but they are complementary – our help-meets. Sadly, unless they take back their dignity and create that shape, women will be constantly forced to think about the shape of the penis. That’s a stumbling block.

    You guys have no idea how difficult it is for us, the more visually oriented sex, to live with dudes waltzing around, flaunting their shoulders like frumped up sexcocks. NO IDEA. It is so hard for me to study in school when I can see the shape of a chesty boy’s collarbone through his shirt.

    Boys don’t realize how even the sight of their shapely adam’s apples can drive us gals round the bend, so turtlenecks should also be worn at all times.

    You’re just going to have to trust me, because as a woman, I know more about this than you.

    Don’t get me wrong. It’s your choice, boys, but don’t expect me to respect you if you willingly slut it up. And don’t be surprised if you lead someone on and they can’t resist. You chose to dress like a piece of meat. Would God want you to lead your sisters astray?

    Once you start dressing in a godly way, we poor, sinful women, plagued with lustful thoughts, will no longer have to be assaulted by realizing that we were looking at a male figure. No longer will we have to obsessively recite bible verses so we don’t glimpse a boy’s happy trail, or side-hug so we don’t inadvertently cop a feel of an errant pec.

    Please, boys. It’s for your Sisters in Christ.

  • Yakamoz

    @ Ash. It’s not any harder for a woman to disguise her figure than for a man to do so. It’s that men are not seen as having a sexual figure to begin with. They’re just ‘normal.’

    It’s harder for a woman to look like she has a male figure than it is for a man. But the reverse would be just as hard. I described above what it would be like if men were seen as the ones with the sexual figures that needed hiding.

    • Daniel Johansson

      Chimpanzee mating normally starts with the female showing her end parts and the male response of arousal and mating. 

      Why don´t feminists bracket these animals too?

  • http://www.magpiesmarbles.com The Pint

    I have a suggestion to all men of the Abrahamic faiths: Take a burka and instead of forcing women to wear it, wrap it tightly around your head and face. Then you won’t be having those awful thoughts and feelings any more.

    Thank you, Richard. That just about made my day and almost made up for the rage triggered by this post. Although I wish I hadn’t been taking a drink when I read it and snorted carbonated beverage up my nose.

  • Johann

    @Yakamoz: I like you. :) Thank you for that post; I’ve stolen it for my quote collection and future reference.

  • ash

    @Yakamoz, thank you for making the point better, clearer and funnier than I was able.

  • http://religiouscomics.net Jeff P

    It is all what you get used to.

    If you are from a culture that freely shows skin, then you won’t get hot and bothered when you see skin.

    If you are from a culture that always tries to be covered up from head to toe, then it is only natural to get excited when you see a little skin.

    If he wants to get over his repression, he should join a nudist colony.

  • Freemage

    Wish I hadn’t been recovering from a cold when this was posted….

    About 80% of Deck17′s posts could be summed up with the words “tone argument”–”If you’re mean in your posts, you’ll make it harder to for people to listen to you.”

    There’s something to be said, there, save that it ignores the fact that there are, in fact, vast differences in people. Some folks actually ARE better motivated to reconsider their position by mockery and strong emotional responses, just as others are better approached using a calm, rational tone that carefully couches everything in sugar-coated kindness.

    So the best rebuttal against tone arguments, then, is one that was made only occasionally yesterday–that Deck17 should take the approach she prefers, while allowing others to do the same, in the hopes that the broadest number of folks can be reached.

    Now, within that remaining 20%, there was perhaps 5% retained patriarchal language and assumptions (“man-whore” really stood out to me–so long as that particular construction exists, it says a lot about where we are in the equality fight).

    However, taking the appeal to “find a better way” to deal with this sort of misogyny at face value, my suggestion would be this:

    1: Start out by pointing out that, even if every woman in his faith were to start dressing in burqas, he would still be perpetually exposed to temptation by women not of the faith who chose to flaunt their bodies. Thus, the notion that this is somehow really limited to just the women of his faith is misguided–he wants all women to be Christians, ultimately, and Christians of his sect at that, so this message IS for ‘all women’.

    2: If talking with someone with views like this, then, the Sermon on the Mount text about plucking out the eye IS relevant–as others noted, the sin is ultimately found in the sinner, not the object of the sin. Thus, the sinner should eliminate their temptation by isolating themselves, until their thoughts are more able to be controlled. Monastic existence is what is called for, here.

    Finally, Deck17, if you do come back and see this, whether you want to admit it or not, there IS a direct chain of thought between this video and the “she was asking for it” school of rape culture. Any attempt at putting the responsibility for your own ‘sin’ on another person is ultimately an attempt to absolve yourself of responsibility for your thoughts and actions.

  • http://theotherweirdo.wordpress.com The Other Weirdo

    Sorry, jumping in a bit late into this discussion.

    Ya know- I’m actually going to go with the Christian quote: “Hate the sin but love the sinner.” for my answer to this. I’m not saying you have to tolerate the view itself, but you need to tolerate the existence of these folks. They ARE NOT bad people. Yes, they may have some shitty ideas floating around inside, but we need to show compassion and love towards them. It’s hard enough to be Christian without everyone who’s not treating you like crap.

    Emphasis mine.

    By tolerate the existence of these folks, I assume you’re begging the atheists to not engage is witch hunts, societal ostracization, God-inspired genocides, pogroms, inquisitions, Holy Crusades, jihads, demonizations and the like. That’s all I can think of when you say “…tolerate the existence of…”.

    Another point. It has been mentioned that he is not making women in general do anything, just suggesting to his own congregation how to behave and dress. And wow, by the way, Christian women are repressed enough as it is, I can’t imagine what letting a father choose a young woman’s wardrobe like she’s some kind of child would do.

    Anyway, that’s how these things start, isn’t it? First, “O my congregation, wear thou not revealing clothing lest my thoughts runneth away with them.” Next thing you know, “O my congregation, go forth and smite the unbelievers for their rounded arms and firm bellies are an abomination unto Me!” Admittedly, that’s exageration for conversational effect, but still the point is not that far from the truth.

    Still another point. While the message to women is undoubtedly bad(you’re whores if you wear skimpy outfits and also children who need your fathers to pick your outfits for you), the message to men, in my opinion, is even worse(you’re animals with nothing on your minds except sex, sex, and more sex, you can’t be trusted to exercise any control over yourself and you don’t even want to exercise any control, and every single one of you is walking around with thoughts of rape running through your heads).

    That’s truly sad. And no, I do not respect his beliefs, and I certainly don’t respect him for his lack self-control, regardless of source.

  • anonymous

    @Deck17

    I’m sure you’re not even reading or responding to these comments right now, but I feel the need to say something.

    /rant begin/

    I understand what you were trying to do in the beginning. You were trying to show the point of view from Christianity. You seemed to be arguing that comments weren’t taking their POV into account.The problem is that many of us here were in that Christianity. We already know what they believe and why. Just because they believe it, doesn’t make it right.

    You also said that, within their religion, what the pastor was preaching is right. You were saying that it’s ok for the pastor to try to control what these women wore because they shared his religious beliefs. That is asinine. Just because the women in that Christian church might believe every word that pastor is saying, doesn’t mean they are not harmed by the idea. The same goes for the young/adult men in the congregation.

    I grew up in a church that preached the same things to the youth group. It does harm people. Even people who believe in it with all their hearts (like I did at the time). The idea that women somehow hold the key to sex, and that men can’t control themselves from trying to get it, is incredibly harmful to young boys and girls, especially those who had been abused. I was abused as a child. I was also terrified of telling anyone about it mostly because of these teachings. You can’t tell me that doesn’t cause harm, or that it’s still right for them to preach it just because it’s what they believe.

    Just because the pastor or those young boys believe this doesn’t make it right for them to believe it. It doesn’t make it right for them to preach it to the congregation. Atheists pointing out that it’s not right in no way takes away their freedom of religion. They are still free to believe it, but we are also free to tell them how wrong they are.

    /rant over/

  • http://happyatheists.com Slickninja

    ” Stephanie : I hear burkas are great for covering up all that sinful worldliness…”

    Total win at commenting.

    • Daniel Johansson

      Fear propaganda!

  • Inthewater

    I haven’t read this whole comment section (I’ll admit that) but I have one problem…why is this all about “young” men.

    Ladies, sorry, but this “almost middle aged” man has lustful thoughts about women all the time. :)

    But seriously, does that make me bad or some sort of “pig”? Oh well, the thoughts still roll on, and as someone else said, having women all dress conservative like wouldn’t matter. I admire beauty or what I may find attractive about someone regardless of the type of dress they have on.

    Sorry, just was getting the feeling early on in this discussion that if I found a woman attractive I was some sort of molesting bastard who objectified them and didn’t think of them as people.

  • Anonymous

    This has nothing to do with male lust. It is purely about repressing women. Taken to it’s logical conclusion it DOES lead to the burkha, because no matter how modestly a woman dresses there will always be her face, her hair, her hands, the expression on her face, her smell, her voice, the things she says, the sound of her breathing, the rustle of fabric as she moves.

    Women can look phenomenally attractive in extremely modest dress and they can go unnoticed in the raunchiest outfit.

    I am an average looking girl and generally dress modestly. I am not flirtatious or suggestive in any way and I stride around like.a man. If what this sermon were suggesting were true, I would seldom be the subject of male desire. The reality is that men may like to see a flash of skin, the curves of a figure or a sassy walk, but they completely forget themselves if it is all kept a mystery.

    • Daniel Johansson

      No there will be balance and normality, not extreme measures and covering up everything so much that you are totally hidden, nor so little that you are naked!

      Balance, normality, sanity.

      You know, not all men are mentally disturbed. We are pretty good, you know.

  • ButchKitties

    In this country, RAPE is illegal and NOTHING justifies it.

    Have you ever been on the jury for a rape trial? I have. And I can tell you that what you just said is not true.

    Despite the fact that the rapist denied ever having sex with the girl right up until the rape kit DNA results came back, and despite the fact that he was “kind” enough to cover her with photographable injuries when she tried to escape, there were a few hold outs on the jury who didn’t want to convict because they were sure that the victim had asked for it. Their evidence: her manner of dress.

    • Daniel Johansson

      You´re rants are oversimplified and biased.

  • Yakamoz

    Christ, ButchKitties. What happened? Did they ultimately convict? Please tell me that bastard is in jail.

    Note to everyone: most of the time, someone else can’t consent to be injured by you! Stupid, stupid, stupid. Exposing someone else to your bodily fluids is assault even if that’s the extent of the other person’s injury.

    If you’re going to penetrate someone, you have a positive responsibility to take all reasonable precautions to minimize the harm to that person. It’s on YOU, not her, and if you fuck up and injure her, then congratulations: you’re responsible for her injuries.

    This is so easy for people to understand when talking about penetration of men. Men can imagine that they’d be pissed if they were damaged by a sex partner’s penetration of their nether regions. But when it comes to women’s rights to not be injured – even during sexytime! – for some unknown reason that couldn’t possibly have to do with modesty crapola like the above video, people lose their goddamn minds.

  • Fundie Troll

    @ Jenv

    I keep getting Fundie Troll and Deck17 mixed up.

    Huh? Well for starters, I’m not nearly as prolific a poster as Deck17…

    Oh and my avatar is MUCH cooler ;)

  • Noelle

    Oye…that was rough. About every 30 seconds I went from laughing hysterically to wanting to throw up, and so on.

    Also, I am wondering, how do these men know how much skin a woman is showing unless they are paying verrry close attention already…You can’t know a woman has cleavage unless you have looked at her chest and you can’t tell how tight her pants are unless you’ve looked at her legs, butt, etc.
    Furthermore, I would be extremely uncomfortable asking my father to survey my body in order to tell me if something I was wearing was arousing to men. Creepy.

  • ButchKitties

    He was eventually convicted on two of the four counts. The girl was lucky (what a word to describe a rape victim) that she tried to escape. If she’d been too scared to try to run away, the guy wouldn’t have broken her hand by slamming a door on it and the hold-outs would have never been convinced to vote to convict. And this is despite the fact that he lied to the police about having had sex with her, and only remembered having “consensual” sex after the DNA results came in. I felt like he was being convicted of breaking her hand more than he was being convicted of rape.

    Side note: the amount of time it took the county to process the rape kit is DISGRACEFUL. It took nearly TWO YEARS. I will never get over that.

    He got six years for each count, to be served concurrently, eligible for parole in a little over three years. If he gets parole, the time between the rape and the trial will be longer than the time he spends in prison. (And if anyone thinks this is thanks to an expensive defense lawyer – the guy had a public defender.)

    I was raped when I was 20. Like a lot of women, I didn’t report it. After having been on that jury, I’m not sure I made the wrong decision. I was too scared and too drugged to try to escape. I didn’t have any visible injuries. I didn’t have x-rays or pictures of a busted head and hand to show a jury. To go through what the victim went through, to wait years for the trial, and then almost lose because it takes almost no effort to convince peole that it was the victim’s fault… Sometimes I regret not reporting it, but a lot of times I don’t. Reporting it could have very easily made things worse for me instead of better.

    • Daniel Johansson

      I hate rapists! They are lesser than human, Mentally disturbed people. 

      However, to become feminist out of that and take out your aggression on innocent men makes you the rapist. Hate your real rapist not men in general! 

      Because if you propagate that all men are rapists, what reason have men left to spare you?

      Than we can´t adhere to you being the victim anymore, You become the oppressor which needs to be dealt with.

  • mavitygirl

    Bravo, Richard Wade!!

  • Vas

    The only way ANY OF US are ever going to get anywhere in making the world a better place is to develop a bit of tolerance for the situation as it is

    Ya know just for the record some atheists are also nihilists and don’t believe for a second that the world being a “better place” is ever going to happen, and really some of us don’t care if it gets “better” because it is all utterly useless and will end badly anyway. So there is that. Even if things never get better it can be fun to fight the wind, it’s fun to watch in any event.

    Honestly, if you want an honest opinion of male sluts, you should probably ask a gay guy- preferably one in SF or NYC. The straight community doesn’t have nearly as many men slutting it up as the gay community does. It seems that women have less provocative standards for male clothing when it comes to hooking up at the clubs than other men do for each other. (Well, unless you’re in the BDSM scene- then most everyone is a slut and damn proud of it, straight or gay.)

    Wow how cool of you to slagg off gay men and “most” people in the BDSM “scene”, (+ NY and SF) in one fell swoop! Way to make the world a better place. Really Deck17, people like you make me glad that entropy is going to fuck us all over, when I read your posts I’m glad we are all doomed. Your misery is infectious, you are a beautiful disease, a delicious cancer. If you ever feel the urge to be totally objectified feel free to look me up, I’m fond of “meat” and have the gear to “cook” it, (thank you Nikola Tesla). We could listen to Peter Murphy and let the darkness consume us. My life does not have enough insane awful shit in it right now, you could go a long way towards filling that gap. Thank you so much for your bitter ranting posts, they made the world a darker more awful place, we couldn’t do it without people like you.

  • http://arewomenhuman.wordpress.com Grace

    I didn’t make it through all the comments, so I don’t know if anyone who’s part of the group of churches Mahaney leads has commented yet. I grew up in this group (Sovereign Grace Ministries, or SGM, formerly PDI). I can say from personal experience and observation that, consciously or not, they do blame women for male sexual desire, and for men’s lack of self-control, and they don’t take rape or sexual abuse seriously. They’ll say otherwise, of course. But there are several accounts on ex-SGM blogs like SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge that show the ugly reality of what it’s like to be a woman in SGM. I also write about some of my experience on my blog (linked above).

    Long story short, Mahaney is an extremely misogynist, seriously creepy, insecure, and repressed guy, completely threatened by the slightest evidence of female autonomy – and he’s teaching thousands of men to be just like him.

  • http://fransdejonge.com Frans

    @Deck17: I think you’re coming from the wrong angle, and I’m taking quite some issue with those parts of your comments that propagate a moderate version of the exact same thing you claim to be against.

    Mother of! I’m saying that school probably isn’t the place to wear a halter top.

    Apparently it doesn’t ever exceed about 18 degrees Celsius where you live. Meanwhile our quality of living would surely be better if no men or women would shy away from showing some shoulder *gasp*, some midriff *double gasp* or some back *triple gasp* and be too hot just because something weren’t the place. And A/C would be the opposite of a valid counter-argument. Something to do with the environment…

    And I’m just going to go ahead and say it. If I was surrounded by a bunch of attractive, topless, tight-jeaned men everywhere I went, eventually I’d probably ask them to put some damn clothes on. I like a hot guy as much as the next girl, but seriously, could any of us ladies really focus if we were surrounded by Chippendales 24 hours a day??? I think not.

    So when you’re at the beach you’re incapable of doing anything but staring at the hot guys that might be present? If so, whose problem is that? And for that matter, being disgusted at seeing obese people would be no different. Still all the viewer’s prerogative.

    I also don’t find it offensive if a woman CHOOSES to dress conservatively. I think a woman should be able to dress HOWEVER SHE WANTS. And if she CHOOSES to dress by religious standards, I DO NOT DISAPPROVE. I also DO NOT disapprove of a woman wearing a mini-skirt, platform boots, and pasties instead of a shirt. However, I do think there is a time and place for it. (Unless the “woman” in question is a 13 year old girl, and then I just call that bad parenting and too much Media influence.)

    You say you don’t disapprove, immediately followed by multiple examples of disapproving.

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and presume that you’re American. The things you’re saying sound about as strange as having to cover my shoulders when entering some church in Italy (although actually they were rather haphazard about mine, but not about my wife’s shoulders; I covered mine in solidarity). Perhaps you have some trouble seeing the problem because you partially agree. People should be able to walk around naked if they want and you shouldn’t care.

  • http://blog.mcmoyer.com Marlon Moyer

    I got to thinking about this again last night and started wondering if the next sermon would be about how you need to hide all your possessions so you’re neighbor won’t have a hard time trying not to covet them. Seems like the next logical step…

    • Daniel Johansson

      Well the biological instinct to mate with women is fundamentally much stronger and unnegotiable than the notion to steal, only people that aren´t satisfied with their life steal and this can often be treated without castration or demolishing the vagina.

  • Mihangel apYrs

    The Muslim world would just love this moron, this is just the sort of crap thatputs women into burkhas and isolation: it is THEIR fault that men have lustful thoughts, and maybe act on them.

    Can I use the same excuse for debagging and violating my of-age deliveryboy?

  • http://theotherweirdo.wordpress.com The Other Weirdo

    @Noelle

    Also, I am wondering, how do these men know how much skin a woman is showing unless they are paying verrry close attention already…You can’t know a woman has cleavage unless you have looked at her chest and you can’t tell how tight her pants are unless you’ve looked at her legs, butt, etc.

    Thanks for the visual! Now I can’t get boobs and butts out of my head. :)

  • http://shibainus.ca Julie M.

    Did anyone catch a line near the beginning of this video?

    “I am thankful God has created me to be attracted to women…”

    Sooo… you’re saying that God creates men who aren’t attracted to women? That God created you to be attracted sexually to women? Whose fault is it for homosexuality and lusting again?

  • Ginger

    I’m pretty sure I saw an episode of Criminal Minds that was based on this video (for those of you who don’t know, the show is about crazy serial rapist/killers). I’m a college student on a campus that has had some issues here and there with misogyny, and I’m seriously hoping the guy who wrote the letter doesn’t go to my school. Eek!

    PS: Totally wearing my push-uppiest push-up bra tomorrow. I’m gay.

  • Dhruv Karunakaran

    Sweet. This guy says that guys can mentally devour people.
    “Campus is a loaded minefield. There are girls everywhere.” -Someone’s regressed to elementary school, still afraid of “cooties.”

  • http://blog.mcmoyer.com Marlon Moyer

    I think the best solution would be for this pastor to suggest that all the male members be castrated. This way, the men won’t have sinful thoughts about the women anymore, the women will be able to dress in whatever they want….and this congregation’s silly ideas will die of in one generation.

  • Steph

    I didn’t want to throw my laptop… I just laughed through the whole thing. hahaha @ the hushness of his voice near the end.

    Misogynist assholes are hilarious. Why do these people want to keep Sharia Law out of this country? Because it’s competition!

    It’s scary, though, to see this is the type of person who have been elected to congress recently. Why would they be so focused on turning back woman’s rights?

    Now I’m waiting for the bills to go through blaming women for being raped because they weren’t modest enough. Men can’t be responsible around nice looking ladies! ugh

  • http://www.oldearthaccretionist.com/ Old Earth Accretionist

    I am sorry but the problem here is not women dressing immodestly… the problem here is that lust/attraction is considered unnatural/bad by their religion. The harder you fight against this sort of thought the larger the thought becomes in your mind. This is a ridiculous result of sexual represssion causing grief… It really is the case of “don’t think about purple elephants”….

    As my boyfriend has often said (and I have often noticed but my opinion doesn’t matter to these people) being fully covered doesn’t mean someone doesn’t think that someone is going to result in lust/attraction.

    Rape is still ridiculously common where women have to wear burkhas… desire doesn’t go away because clothing covers every inch of skin. And the feeling of being “out of control” comes from an attempt to stifle every trace of something that is natural and that attempt is damaging. If you come to the conclusion that it is uncontrollable because you cannot remove it entirely how much more likely are you to cede your personal responsibility than if you think it is a natural part of your biology and that thinking something doesn’t automatically make you tainted?

    And the bit about women not realising the men are always lustful and it is powerful… Women can be horny too we can be just as or more horny than guys. Just because you can’t see into our heads anymore than we can see into yours doesn’t give you the right to assume that your desires/needs are more urgent or powerful than ours.

    Talking about sacrificing for the good of men everywhere… not everyone teaches their kids to be this desperately, terribly afraid of their own biology. Some people care enough to teach them realistically that they will respond to people they find attractive but that the response doesn’t equal or necessitate an action. That the response is not evil, it just is. And that everyone has a personal responsibility for what they chose to act on or not act on.

    Seriously… Oooh skin… terrible… sinful! Blargh… he sounds pretty “self-righteously distinct” to me.

    Besides having spent a few years on a university campus most days my collegues and I were jeans and t-shirt at our most dressed up… though I am partial to the tank top because it is comfy and I’m a terrible heat wimp… but oh oh that might be showing too much skin! Oh those shoulders… so sensual…. baah..

    Get over the human body (we all have one) and get over yourself and your self-righteous assumptions about women and how they relate and are “responsible to” men. Take some responsibility for yourself and stop placing the blame on people who don’t even interact with you.

    • Daniel Johansson

      We men simply don´t want feminists anymore, They act like mentally disturbed chickens.

      We choose modest and divine normal christian girls with normal and beautiful values.

  • http://chagalo.org dep

    This type of person gets sexually excited by what he thinks he might see. To be completely modest, a woman should be totally nude. Everything exposed – nothing left to excite him.

  • DancesWithOwls

    Does this guy realize there is nothing noble or countercultural about judging a woman based on how much you want to f*** her?

    Do these guys realize how much they are perpetuating the myth that women are no more than the sum of their hymens?

    Do these boys realize they are devaluing sex and sexuality just as much as porn culture by upholding the commodity model of sex?

    I have male friends where I could be completely naked and they’d still respect me enough to look in my eyes. That’s not jsut responsibility, that is a mindset where you are able to see the body as more than jsut a sexual thing, but a beautiful work of art. People who accept human sexuality are more able to value the body past merely its sexuality. The naked body should not cause you as must lust and perverted thinking as it seems to do, and that is your loss.

    These are the same people that try to censor classical art and statues of nudes, and it is sad.

    • Daniel Johansson

      Well we men don´t want you anymore, We want modest christian girls, They rock my world! you can run naked through town for all I care just run far away from me so I  don´t have to send  police on you.

  • Lee I . Benjamin

    (Eccles 26:9-10)”The whoredom of a woman maybe known in her naughty looks & eye-lids . If your daughter  be  shameless , keep her in straightly , lest she abuse herself through  over much liberty “. (Eccles 26:14-15)”A silent & loving woman is a gift  of the Lord : And there is nothing so much worth as mind well  instructed . A shamefaced & faithful woman is a  double grace , & her continent  mind  can not be  valued “.(Eccles 26:25) ” A shameless woman shall be counted as a dog , but  she that  is shamefaced will fear thew Lord “.(Eccles 42:13-14)”For from garments come a moth , & from women wickedness . Better is the churlishness of   a man  then  a  courteous woman , a woman , I  say  , which bring shame & reproach “. ( Gen.3:17)Then  to Adam ,he said,”Because   you have listened to the voice of your wife …”.(Job 2 :10) He said to her  ,” You speak as one of the foolish women speaks …” (Prov.9:13) “The woman of folly ( foolishness / foolish ) is boisterous , naive , & knows nothing “. (2 Tim.3:6-_…captive(married or slave) weak women weighed  down   with sin’s ,led by various(mixed)impulses “.(1 Corinthians 11:7-9) “For  a man is the  image &  glory of God , but woman is the glory  of man . For man did not come from woman , but woman from man ( his rib). Neither was a man  created for woman , but woman for man “.(Titus 2:4:)”….train the younger women to be subject to their husband . There is no equal power indication sharing in Marriage “.(Deuteronomy 22:5) “The woman shall not wear that which pertain  unto a man , neither shall a man put on a woman’s  garment/s : for all that do so , are abomination unto the Lord your God “.(Deut.22:11)”You shall not wear a garment of divers    sorts , as  woollen & Linen  together “.(1 Pe  3″2) “While they behold your chaste   conversation { coupled} w/fear”.
    (1 Ti 2:13)”For Adam was first formed , then Eve “.(1 Pe  3:9) ” Not  rendering evil for evil ,or railing for railing , but contrariwise blessing , knowing that you are there  unto called , that you shall inherit a blessing “. ( Mat.15:11)”Don’t critisize other ppl. for their habbits . Not that which goes into the mouth defile a person , but what comes out of the mouth , does defile the body”. (Psalms 119:86)(Isaiah 61:1)”Prisons & drug  wars do not save souls . The lord has  sent me   to  bind   up the broken hearted , to proclaim Liberty   to  the captives & the opening   of the prison  to them  that are  bound “.             ( Ezekiel 34:29)  ” I will raise up for them a plant of renown , & they shall be no more   consumed w/hunger  in the land  , neither bear the shame of the heathen anymore “. ( Genesis 1:29-31) God said ,”Behold  , I have given every herb  bearing seed which is upon  the face of   all the   earth   , to you , it will be used for meat “.                                         ( Paul :1 Timothy 4:1-3) The bible predicts some herbs prohibition : “Now  the spirit  speaks expressly , that in later  times , some   shall speak  lies  in hypocrisy commanding   to abstain from meats  which  God have   created to be received with  Thanksgiving of them which believe & know   the truth “. ( Prov.27:15)”A continual   dripping on a rainy day & a quarrelsome  wife  , are    a like “. ( 1 Timothy 5:23) ” No longer  drink only water , but   use a little wine   for the sake of your  stomach   & your frequent ailments “. (Prov. 21:19)”It is better to live   in a desert land , then w/a  quarrelsome & fretful  woman “.

    • Lee I. Benjamin

      Ppl. sorry  if  it seems that I’m pushing religion on you all , or seems I’m judging  . I am  not doing such things . I’m only hoping that some at least would  like some of this religious stuff   , for it may  be like , some  may say to themselves “I  like this way of life that I am hearing  . I will live this way . It’s just a hope thing I’m doing only  , towards  ppl.  who may listen .(James 4:11)”Brothers , do not slander one another . Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him , speaks  against the law  & judges  him,speaks   against the Law & judges it . When you judge the law , you are not keeping it , but sitting judgment on it “.    (Mathew 5:19) “All who are  in Christ will follow  the example of Christ . All who justify the sinner in his transgression of God’s law belong to that class of whom our savior   said ,”Whosoever  therefore   shall break one of  these  least  Commandments , &  shall teach men so , he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven “.(Ezek.18:4) They can have no part with him who came to magnify the law & make it honorable , they are  deceiving the ppl. w/their sophistry , saying To the sinner ,”It shall be  well w/you , when God has declared ,”the soul that sin {transgress   the law} it shall die “.( Mathew 5:17)”Think not that I  come to destroy the law or the prophets . I am not come to destroy , but to fulfill “,…” to   magnify the law & make it honorable    , as Isaiah , hundreds of yrs. before , had Prophesied   respecting   the Messiah’s     work”.( Mathew 7:24) “Therefore   , everyone who hears these   words of mine & puts  them into  practice  is   like , a wise  man who built his   house on the Rock “.(Luke 6:46)”Why do you call me Lord ,Lord ,& do not do what I say ?”. (Romans 2:13)”For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s  sight , but it is those who obey the law  who will  be declared righteous “.(James 2:14)”What good is it , my brothers , if   a man  claims to have faith , but has no deeds ? Can such faith save them ?”.(Mathew  7:21)”But be you doers  of the word , & not hearers only -obey the gospel,& do not merely  listen to it “.

  • Lee I . Benjamin

    Dear Pastor , I just want ppl. to know from my experiences , that  suicide  ppl. do go to hell . My proof is my experience  in this story . :  I was   taking   pain -pills  . 1 every  hr. & a half   , for pain . The pills never took   the toe pain away . I was out side at night  alone   taking   them . At the last  pill , I was sweating , in the cold . A voice that was male & was Jesus , & said to me ,  if you take that   last pill  , it will be suicide . Now  you know it will be suicide  , you  now know better . Look at the tree across  your yard . Do you  notice  the  creature ‘s    in the tree & under the tree ? They are waiting for you  to take it so they will take you to hell . The choice is yours “. Then his sense   has   vanished .  He gave me a vision  way before , on me in Heaven . May family made it , but my Uncle . We all were in the circle looking down waiting for him to come up . Gods voice said ,”He didn’t make it . …… warned him that one in the family wouldn’t make it , when he was a live , when I was with him ” The family got mad , because  they think I didn’t do a good job . He was bi or all Gay .  We all stood there like days , but days were all that sunny hr. up there . We all were weeping  . We never got tired  of standing  for days , because we weren’t in line anymore that seemed  for ever waiting are turn to be judged by God . Later found out , he shot himself . So , it   one reason why he didn’t make it , was because he sot himself . And yes , Jesus , still comes to ppl. who fast , do heavy prayers a lone  at a high way , or at a pond that has no one there at the   time  , & he will even be in your room & say don’t lust over Mags. & stuff . He tell’s you why in the class room  , up   there .  I will  be on the floor & he is in front of  the class room  , teaching a new way to live up there . Any way , on the way to the   mansion ,  leaving the gate , I was going the wrong way , so the angle there said I was going the wrong way even though I couldn’t see him anymore . It  was  telepathy . I went then the right  way . I then saw the one who killed me planting flowers at my path in anger , or rage . He was there because I forgave him for all  the killing he me done , because he was  willing to shoot me , instead of   a painful  death .  On a April 6-11,2012  . God said , ignore him . Don’t say hi or look at him . He is still being tested .  I looked back , & he fell down to hell  . Then  someone was walking   me to my    mansion . I asked why this happened & that ? He gave me answers . We could talk or speak telepathy   . Are choice . I finally  saw my mansion . I was in fear , beacause of all the ppl. there out side of it & was horrified  , that they will judge  me or something . I didn’t want to go  all the way , & refused to go , but the spirit of God moved me.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/ Hemant Mehta

      delete.

  • Natalee

    uhh what is wrong with dressing modestly? and what is wrong with Christian men asking their sisters in Christ to dress modestly, not only for their own sake, but for the sake of the girl too? No girl who has a heart dedicated to God wants men looking at her lustfully. and theres nothing wrong or stupid with any of that. i dont know why any of you here care enough to post a comment about something that means nothing to you. let us live how we want. these Christian men are way more respectable than any other men i will ever know, because they yearn to see women with purity and not lustfully. and the Christian women I come across are far more beautiful than women who dress immodestly because they want people to see their hearts, not what they look like.

    • http://annainca.blogspot.com/ Anna

      We care because this pastor (and those who think like him) are promoting an unhealthy, shame-based, misogynistic view of sex and sexuality.

    • Daniel Johansson

      Omg, I love normal christian girls instead of all these demolished feminists out there, you are the crown of nature! I would do anything only for modest christian girls!

  • Dan

    we reject nudity in society and most of us agree – those who believe in modesty or otherwise. what arguments are there for covering genitalia, while exposing everything else?

  • reformed guy

    I remember when I used to believe women should cover most of their skin… I was such a fundamental fool. Now I can look at women and lust but control myself because I can see them for WHO they are; not WHAT they are. It was my mentality that had to change: not the beautiful and intelligent women in my life.

  • anonymous

    I believe that both genders are at fault here. Women need to be modest and act like adults instead of showing off their body. Sure you can show it off a little with some tailored clothing, but definitely not skimpy clothes!!! Men on the other hand need to take responsibility of the fact that they need to control themselves.

    • http://annainca.blogspot.com/ Anna

      No, women don’t “need to be modest.” Neither do men. The very concept of religious modesty is twisted. It’s all about trying to prevent people from experiencing sexual desire. There is nothing wrong with being attracted to another person. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex. It is normal and natural to have those feelings. Your religion tells people there is something wrong with them and makes them feel guilty and ashamed of their desires.

  • http://www.facebook.com/darkphoenix23 Barbara J. Godding

    Who are they to tell women what they can or cannot wear I wish People would Mind their Own Business


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