Christians Go After a Popular Pastor Over His Sexism, Too

Popular anti-gay Christian pastor Mark Driscoll is no stranger to controversy or saying crazy things (Avatar is a “demonic, Satanic film“), but he managed to piss off a lot of Christians yesterday with a question he asked on Facebook:

So, what story do you have about the most effeminate anatomically male worship leader you’ve ever personally witnessed?

Right… you know, those guys who aren’t macho or manly or What God Wants.

I don’t know if this is supposed to be a knock at gay men or women in general, but his own followers were mad enough that he had to clarify what he meant by “effeminate”:

1: having feminine qualities untypical of a man : not manly in appearance or manner
2: marked by an unbecoming delicacy or overrefinement

That helps.

He also wants Christians to bring other people down by condemning those who don’t act like he does… kind of like that one story in the Bible where Jesus sees an effeminate man and then points and laughs at him.

Classic.

Dianna Anderson at Jesus Needs New PR wrote him an open letter:

I want you to ask yourself this: You are a married man. You have (according to the info I could find) five children, a couple of whom I imagine, by sheer probability, are female. So think of your wife, think of your daughters, and ask this: Is being female a bad thing?

I know the response already: being female isn’t a bad thing for girls, but it’s a bad thing for a man to display female characteristics.

Why?

Because you think being feminine is degrading. You think in terms of hierarchy: women are the Other and men are the default and any crossing between those lines is wrong wrong wrong.

… When you say to the men in your congregation, “being womanly is wrong,” the men aren’t the only ones listening. Yes, be bold, preach the gospel (or what you think is the gospel), but be aware: there are others listening, and they are not liking what they hear.

Well put. I’m sure Anderson has a lot of fans on this side of the aisle.

Alright, have fun drawing all the parallels to our own side’s recent sexism issues…

About Hemant Mehta

Hemant Mehta is the editor of Friendly Atheist, appears on the Atheist Voice channel on YouTube, and co-hosts the uniquely-named Friendly Atheist Podcast. You can read much more about him here.

  • http://hewhothinksaloud.blogspot.com Emaj Cirtap

    I’ve seen quite a few of this guy’s sermons. Go watch his sermon on atheism. Nothing but logical fallacies and appealing to emotion to make his “point.” He also bashed twilight. Yeah, it’s pretty bad, but not for the reasons this guy says. Apparently reading fantasy novels will make you a satan worshiping vampire.

  • Michelle

    Can I just say I love the name of Ms. Dianna Anderson’s site – ‘Jesus Needs New PR’

  • http://www.diannaeanderson.net Dianna

    Mr. Mehta -

    This means a lot – thanks much. It’s the first in a series (as noted on the post), which will be continuing on my blog (which you so helpfully linked to) that will be examining gender and the church (a pet theme of mine, if you will).

    Michelle -

    Unfortunately, it’s author Matthew Paul Turner who gets the praise for that clever title. :) He let me guest post there today because that was a way of making sure the letter got notice. I’m sure he appreciate the compliment, though!

    Thanks again!
    -Dianna

  • Meyekael

    Well, I suppose it’s pretty hard to be manly when your trying to inherit the Earth by being meek, or turning the other cheek, or not resisting evil, or loving your neighbor.

  • jolly

    I think Driscoll is talking about Jesus. He certainly doesn’t come across as a macho man.

  • Paul

    Science to the rescue!

    Males have female hormones in them, and females have male hormones in them.

    God Nature made us that way.

  • Lady Copper

    Ew. Mark Driscoll. Even when I was a Christian he always made me see red. It’s like magic, I watch 30 seconds of him talking and start frothing at the mouth. JK, but really, he is SUCH a jerk. Not sure how he keeps getting even more jerkish, it’s rather amazing.

  • http://silveroutlinedwindow.wordpress.com/ Shannon

    Wowsers – Not sure why it initially surprised me. I suppose part of me hangs on to the optimism that things like sexism and racism are a thing of the past. Silly, naive me ;)

  • Miles McCullough

    You just know Marc would deny Dianna’s accusation. You see he thinks macho women are abominations too, so it can’t be just hatred for women. No, it’s just restoring the natural order you see. God made the natural order so it’s good obviously, what with how nature is red in tooth and claw and how all those man made advances of science are evil, duh. Oh wait, that’s not it after all – by natural I just meant traditional, as in “We used to scare the weirdos into being silent, and by weirdos I mean men who weren’t violent, selfish bastards and women who weren’t demure servants. Why can’t we do that anymore? Why? WHY? It’s PC gone mad I tell you.”

  • JW

    And this wonderful, enlightening introduction to the concept of “othering” and hating the feminine that could potentially change the way he views gender for the rest of his life will probably bounce right off his ideological bubble as “propaganda”. From some demonic source no doubt.

  • Roxane

    I’m crossing my fingers and hoping that this is an indication that more xians are getting up on their hind legs and taking on their loonies.

  • Annie

    This is funny, because as I child, growing up in Catholic schools/church, I always imagined Jesus to be gay. He was kind and loving. He turned the other cheek. He had facial hair and a pony tail, just like my parents’ gay friends. I also thought that the priests at my church modeled themselves after Jesus, and they were all certainly gay. When I first heard someone say that maybe Jesus had a thing for Mary Magdalene, my first response was, “But isn’t he gay?” This wasn’t a problem for me. As a kid, I liked Jesus more because he was gay. I’m not sure why, I just did. So I can’t even begin to wrap my brain around Driscoll’s macho talk. Just can’t.

  • GregFromCos

    If you read down a bit, this was Mark’s reason for the post. So funny given the recent tsunami in the atheist blogosphere.

    It’s a real issue. Most churches do not have nearly as many men as women. Women tend to feel more comfortable in a feminine environment than men do in a feminine environment. Many churches that attract women repel men. Sometimes it has a lot to do with the guy up front leading the music. This comes out of a recent conversation with a blue collar non-Christian who wanted to learn the Bible but felt very uncomfortable with the guy on the mic leading worship so he walked out.

    -Mark Driscoll

    I guess it kind of puts our issues into perspective in an odd sort of way.

  • ACN

    Mark Driscoll is the WORST type of person, and it’s a damn shame there isn’t a hell for him to go to.

  • Dan W

    Yes, because Jesus in the Bible does all sorts of macho things like… hmmmm, somehow I can’t recall Jesus doing a lot of macho things from the version of the Bible I read. In fact, many of his actions might be considered more effeminate by men like Mark Driscoll.

    Then again, it’s not like Driscoll is known for saying things that make sense. I remember watching a previous video of his on atheism which was full of fallacies and showed his lack of understanding about atheists.

    Gender roles are just stupid anyway.

  • http://lostmyfaithinyou.wordpress.com TheDon

    This just makes my blood boil. It’s this kind of backwards, despicable attitude that keeps us back from accomplishing so much as the human race. I know that people have right to their own opinions but this loser is hateful and bigoted. I, for one, hope for day that this behaviour will no longer be even tolerated.

  • Charles Black

    Don’t forget that the default body profile is female. That explains why men have nipples is simply because the female body shape is the default for humans & I think this applies to all mammals.

  • http://thingsfindothinks.com AndrewFinden

    It is a certainly a poor comment. I wonder if he wasn’t trying to be light-hearted the SCL was about metro-sexual worship leaders: http://www.jonacuff.com/stuffchristianslike/2008/06/269-understanding-how-metrosexual-your-worship-leader-is-a-handy-guide/

  • http://thingsfindothinks.com AndrewFinden

    @TheDon

    I know that people have right to their own opinions but this loser is hateful and bigoted. I, for one, hope for day that this behaviour will no longer be even tolerated.

    Just read that again and see if you can’t spot the giant, glaring inconsistencies in what you wrote.

  • Drakk

    AndrewFinden:

    No there aren’t. You have the right to think whatever you please, but if you think something we find reprehensible then we’ll just think you’re a complete dick (as is within our rights).

  • http://thingsfindothinks.com AndrewFinden

    @Drakk – yes, there is a massive inconsistency in saying that someone is a bigot (for expressing his view, which, as you point out, is his right) and therefore should not be tolerated. You do know what bigotry is, don’t you?

  • Drakk

    I am not going to enter the philosophical conundrums of bigotry against bigots, or intolerance towards intolerance. Suffice to say I think this does not qualify.

    wiki:

    “The predominant usage [of "bigot"] in modern English refers to persons hostile to those of differing [...]”

    Bigotry, thus, is hostility to anything “NOT x” rather than a specific group. Intolerance of bigotry, on the other hand, does refer to a specific group (bigots).

    tldr: “You suck” is a very different statement to “everyone that isn’t me sucks”

  • http://lostmyfaithinyou.wordpress TheDon

    @AndrewFinden, your argument seems circular, although I understand what you’re trying to say.

    Here is what I am trying to say. Mr. Driscoll says things that are hateful, especially when it refers to unbelievers or homosexuals. He speaks things out out willful understanding and ignorance, both. It is the the things he says that I find deplorable. I say he is bigoted. Bigotry, by definition is the stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own. I also say that bigotry has no place in our society.

    To say that I am bigoted about Mr. Driscoll’s bigotry, that’s just seems like idiocy and, in my opinion, circular. Where do we end it, Mr. Finden? Do we allow his behaviour to continue or do we continue to rail against it. We don’t like to be made fun of, yes I understand that it happens. But a person in his position, who leads hundreds, if not thousands, sways people’s opinions. How long before someone acts on his words?

    These destructive ideas don’t belong in civilized society. John Lennon said it best, “all you need is love.” And I’m not talking about this North American churchy religious pseudo love that we hear every Sunday morning from pulpits this great continent of ours. It’s the one thing I cannot stand.

    So if you want to call me bigoted for saying that, then fine, I’m guilty. But we’ll let history make it’s own judgment.

  • Trace

    No Youtube video?

  • http://thingsfindothinks.com AndrewFinden

    @TheDon

    To say that I am bigoted about Mr. Driscoll’s bigotry, that’s just seems like idiocy and, in my opinion, circular

    That was my point – it is a self-defeating, hypocritical statement to be intolerant of what you call a bigoted opinion. It’s one thing to say you don’t like what Driscoll says, and quite another to say that his opinion ought to not be tolerated. If you’re ok with the illogic of your position, not to mention disregard for free speech, then fine.

    @Drakk

    I am not going to enter the philosophical conundrums of bigotry against bigots, or intolerance towards intolerance. Suffice to say I think this does not qualify.

    No, it doesn’t suffice, because that condundrum (self-defeating) is exactly my point.
    It does qualify because by the very definition you gave, saying that Driscoll’s views ought not be tolerated is bigotry.

    It is one thing to disagree and critique a persons views, it is quite another (illiberal bigotry) to say that they must not be tolerated.

  • http://cafephilos.wordpress.com/ Paul Sunstone

    Maybe Driscoll should get together with Ted Haggard so the two of them can share a meth addicted male prostitute.

    Every time I hear another preacher go off on the homosexuals, I wonder how long before he’s outed. That may not be entirely logical, in a formal sense, but history seems to indicate there’s some chance of its happening to homophobes.

  • http://www.alise-write.com Alise

    @Andrew – Given the statement that he made further down in the comments and quoted by GregFromCos, I don’t think we can assume that it was a humorous thing at all. It was just inviting people to gossip about whatever sissy-man musician they happen to know. And an invitation to gossip certainly doesn’t fit within any ethical behavior.

    And I’m glad Diane wrote what she did (though I still hate the open letter as I think it’s just played itself out at this point). Sadly, I don’t think a lot of people in the church see how this kind of comment is sexist. They might get the really blatant stuff about women submitting or staying home with the kids, but this glosses over. We need more people to call out this as well.

  • SeekerLancer

    There’s no real parallels to draw between Christian sexism and the atheist movement. The difference is atheists don’t have any doctrines at all let alone ones that actively support sexism.

  • qwertyuiop

    having feminine qualities untypical of a man

    Jesus had long hair which is a typical feminine quality, yes?

  • http://thingsfindothinks.com AndrewFinden

    @Alise – I agree that Driscoll’s comment is out of line appeal to gossip and that he ought to repent for it.

  • http://criticallyskeptic-dckitty.blogspot.com Kev Quondam, Kevque Futurum

    It’s comments and attitudes like Mark Driscoll’s in church and religion that made me closet myself and deny my gender identity for thirteen years. I wasted half of my life which I could have used to come to proper terms with my sexuality and identity and instead hid it away and showed off a veil of happiness when I was dying inside.

    The only thing this attitude does is pass on to children the need to be “normal” and not display anything that could be taken as too feminine or masculine. Girls and boys who are hurting inside because their self image doesn’t match that of their outside body don’t get the help or relief they need. And when it’s their turn to be parents, they thrust that off on their kids.

  • Emburii

    AndrewFinden: I personally fail to see how it’s bigoted to hope that people can move beyond their prejudices someday, to the point where they will not accept or tolerate vitriol such as that religionist’s perspective. There is a difference between ‘I hate this person’s views because said values are harmful and wrong’ and ‘I hate this person because they’re Christian’. The second is bigotry, the first (which is what Drakk’s comment meant, from what I can tell) is not.

  • Bryan Johnson

    Then again, it’s not like Driscoll is known for saying things that make sense. I remember watching a previous video of his on atheism which was full of fallacies and showed his lack of understanding about atheists.

    I looked up this video because I was interested (here).

    Man, Driscoll sure knows how to take quotes out of context, jump to conclusions, and then run with them. And he seems to think that atheists believe whole hog in “survival of the fittest,” in that if you’re in a bad way it must be because you’re weak. According to Driscoll, atheism is about “unyielding despair” because anti-depressants are the highest prescribed drug in America…but wait, aren’t most Americans Christian?

  • http://thingsfindothinks.com AndrewFinden

    @Emburii

    There is a difference between ‘I hate this person’s views because said values are harmful and wrong’ and ‘I hate this person because they’re Christian’. The second is bigotry, the first … is not.

    Not quite. Bigotry is not the same as hate – you can hate something and still tolerate it. Bigotry is not tolerating a view that is different from your own. So by definition, saying that Driscoll’s views should not be tolerated is a case of bigotry. By all means, hate the guy’s views, hope that he moves beyond whatever prejudices you see, but don’t be a hypocrite and be intolerant of his views. He has a right to hold them just as much as you have to yours.

  • Jeff

    The thing that offends me most about people like Driscoll is that they always seem to attract hundreds, if not thousands, of followers.

    A few jerks can be dismissed as anomalies. When thousands line up to hear them (and support them financially), it leads me to believe the claims that as much as 30% of our population may be evangelical.

  • http://shadesthamatter.blogspot.com Amanda

    Oh, hi, husband…didn’t know you were on the interwebs!

    Man, I watched that youtube video, and it was tough. In the first 30 seconds, he quotes Russell and then says “the great atheistic philosopher…well, I say “great” in quotes”.

    Apparently, given the inherent superiority of his worldview, atheism is not something Driscoll (or any of the people he is preaching to) needs to take seriously or listen to. Beyond his ridiculous misinterpretation of both Russell and Dawkin’s thoughts, this man has no motivation whatsoever to even attempt to understand a differing viewpoint. He already thinks he’s right, so might as well look down on other belief systems with contempt.

  • Jeff

    There are evangelicals who denounce Driscoll for being too “worldly” and for preaching a “false gospel”: http://defendingcontending.com/2009/06/24/i%E2%80%99ve-had-it-with-mark-driscoll-and-his-mouth-now-it%E2%80%99s-personal/

    But, then, there are also Calvinists who think John Piper, who has said he would be just fine with it if God wanted to send his kids to hell, isn’t hard-edged enough.

    You know the “bigger fool” theory of investing – that no matter what you pay for a stock, there will always come along a “bigger fool” who is willing to pay more? I subscribe to the “bigger bastard” theory of evangelicalism – no matter how big a bastard you think an evangelical is, there’s always a bigger one.

  • Jeff

    Another quote from Driscoll:

    Driscoll tried to stay away from the fray by not naming names, but he makes a strong case against Bell’s alleged universalistic view and the argument that God cannot be loving and send people to hell at the same time.

    The Seattle pastor calls on people to look at what Jesus did on the cross and how he suffered for the ungodly sinners and his enemies.

    “Or, to say it another way, Jesus suffered and died for mean people. A God who will suffer and die for mean people is not mean,” asserts Driscoll. “In fact, such a God alone is altogether loving; to be condemned by a God of perfect love shows how damnable our sin truly is.”

    In his post, Driscoll also answers the argument that eternal torment in hell is unjust punishment for people who sin only for a few decades. He responds by referring to Daniel 12:2 as well as what Jesus says in the Bible in making the case that hell is unending.

    “Today, though, it is becoming popular to hope that sinners will eventually repent and everyone will end up in heaven,” writes Driscoll. “This is universal reconciliation, the ancient view of Origen. However, there is not a shred of evidence for post-mortem repentance.”*

    Conservative evangelical Christians are the worst people in the world. They are the worst people in all of human history. I’m tired of the progressive and secular communities pretending they aren’t, and that better education is all that is necessary to wean them from their hateful delusions. There is no reaching people like this. I’m convinced it’s a neurologically-based criminal psychopathy; they meet the DSM’s current requirements for being classified as suffering from Antisocial Personality Disorder – lack of empathy, and willingness (even eagerness) to see people suffer.

    With rare exception (and please, I have no interest in hearing from those of you who can’t wait to tell me, “I was once one of them and I got out!”), there is no reaching these people. Quarantine them and breed this cognitive and ethical deficit out of the genome. It’s the only way to ensure human survival.

    Go ahead, Libertarians – start your engines.

    * http://www.christianpost.com/news/mark-driscoll-responds-to-rob-bell-controversy-on-hell-49406/

  • Carlie

    With rare exception (and please, I have no interest in hearing from those of you who can’t wait to tell me, “I was once one of them and I got out!”), there is no reaching these people. Quarantine them and breed this cognitive and ethical deficit out of the genome. It’s the only way to ensure human survival.

    Yikes. Godwin much? Sieg heil.

    Also, I was once one of them and got out. We exist, no matter how much you have no interest in acknowledging it.

  • Jeff

    Yikes. Godwin much? Sieg heil.

    I didn’t use the word “Nazi”. Grow up.

    Also, I was once one of them and got out. We exist, no matter how much you have no interest in acknowledging it.

    It’s a phenomenon so rare that in terms of sheer number, it’s almost nonexistent, regardless of your disinterest in acknowledging it.

  • Carlie

    It’s a phenomenon so rare that in terms of sheer number, it’s almost nonexistent, regardless of your disinterest in acknowledging it.

    Really? Then why do all surveys show that the percentage of people attending fundamentalist churches has been dropping every year for the last decade or more?

    I didn’t use the word “Nazi”. Grow up.

    No, you just advocated eugenics to rid the population of undesirables.

  • Jeff

    I’m not going to argue with you. You’re wrong, and there’s an end to it. I won’t respond to you again.

  • Carlie

    I’m wrong that you advocated negative eugenics, or that affiliation with fundamentalist religion is going down?

  • Brian Macker

    “… kind of like that one story in the Bible where Jesus sees an effeminate man and then points and laughs at him.”

    Not sure which story you are talking about but the one I’m thinking of he out of the blue cold cocks some pretty-boy in the face and breaks his nose. Presumably to improve his character. To me it sounds like something out of Kurt Vonnegut, handicapping the more fortunate to make things more even.

  • Brian Macker

    Carlie,

    No Jeff didn’t commit a Godwin. He didn’t compare you ideas to Hitler, but instead advocated a final solution of his own.

    Jeff, you got any other group you want to quarantine and out of the genome. The Jews perhaps? I understand they have some pretty crazy beliefs too.

  • Jeff

    I am a Jew, asshole.

    Richard, Hemant, this is part of what I’ve tried to tell you in the past. As much as I despise fundamentalists, they aren’t wrong about everything, and one of the things about which they’re correct is that the atheist community, as a whole, is nothing to write home about.

  • http://criticallyskeptic-dckitty.blogspot.com Kev Quondam, Kevque Futurum

    @Jeff:

    Seriously? You advocate quarantine of fundamentalists? Do you know how much that makes you sound like one of those nutjob fundies?

  • Jeff

    Seriously? You advocate quarantine of fundamentalists?

    I’ve said this here before, repeatedly, but I haven’t said it in a while (I don’t come around much anymore, precisely because I no longer have the patience for this sort of thing), so I’ll say it again. There is a small but growing body of evidence indicating a strong neurological foundation for fundamentalism/authoritarianism. As experimental results come in, it indicates that these people are, for the most part, hardwired to see reality in terms of rigid hierarchical structures, defined for them by the authority figures in whom they become completely invested. The reason so few fundies get out isn’t a matter of education or opportunity; it’s because they’re innately incapable of doing so.

    Also, as I said above, I’ve recently become convinced that these people are suffering from Antisocial Personality Disorder. They are what used to be called “psychopaths”. They manifest the symptoms specified by the DSM – lack of empathy and willingness to see others suffer. These are people who genuinely believe that the large part of their “heavenly reward” will consist of hanging around a mezzanine in heaven, chugging beer with Jesus and Dubya, peering over the balcony into the bowels of hell, watching the vast majority of their human siblings, including members of their own families (often their own children) being tortured unimaginably for all of eternity, while they point and giggle like schoolchildren. This isn’t solely the result of early childhood indoctrination; this is a biologically-based criminal psychopathology. How many of us have heard them say, time and again, that if they didn’t fear God and divine retribution, they’d be raping, pillaging and plundering? The indigenous peoples who first encountered them during the era of colonialism thought they were insane – as indeed they were.

    Tragically, their psychosis has become not merely the norm, but the guiding ethos of our society. The inmates have quite literally taken over the asylum. Over the past thirty years, since Reagan and his cronies organized and empowered them, these people have been voting into office the criminals and lunatics chiefly responsible for our current socioeconomic debacle. America is finished; we aren’t coming back from this, and due to the interconnected nature of the global economy, as we continue to go down, we’ll be taking everyone else down with us. We’re facing, within the next few years, the end of our global civilization – quite possibly the end of humanity. Ultimately, the Christians will turn out to be far more toxic to humanity as a whole than the Islamic fundamentalists have yet had the opportunity to be. Of course, they will never admit this. As the lights go out, the last fundie, on his deathbed, will still be cursing those whom he knows to be the real culprits (because his pastor told him so) – the Liberals, the atheists and the gays, aided and abetted by their allies, the godless secular Jews who control the media and the banks. At least he’ll be able to comfort himself with lurid fantasies involving our eternal torment.

    I know that of the few of you who managed to get out (not because you succumbed to reason, but because you were lucky enough to win the genetic lottery), many cling desperately to the hope that your family and friends will one day follow you. Sorry – it ain’t happening. I should probably be more compassionate about this and find a gentler way of saying it, but after over half a century of dealing with this crap, I find that I just can’t. I’ve had it up to here with them, and with those of you who can’t seem to fucking let go.

    If there is any hope at all for our survival (and it’s probably already too late), it lies in nullifying their influence. We need mandatory testing of intelligence, sanity and developmental level as a prerequisite for reproduction, or at the very least, for voting. The Western Europeans seem to be able to handle representative democracy; we’ve never really developed the knack. We need to run this place as a republic for a while (which I understand was the preference of some of the founders), in which power is wielded by an elite on behalf of the majority of the populace – except that in my version, the elite would be comprised not of members of a landed aristocracy, but of people with a few neurons to rub together. Naturally, this will never be done. This is the reason we’re screwed.

    So, yes, I advocate the quarantining of fundamentalists. I make absolutely no apology for it.

  • http://criticallyskeptic-dckitty.blogspot.com Kev Quondam, Kevque Futurum

    @Jeff:

    You’re scary. I’m not much of an accomodationist – I find Christianity appalling and believe that it shouldn’t be in the habit of providing any direction to any social element aside from the Church itself and its members. I think the fundamentalists are some of the scariest people, and they’re brutally ignorant and cruel, but I wouldn’t advocate what you’re talking about.

    Fundies say that atheists should be locked up. That gay people should be sent to prison. Are you seriously advocating the same kind of treatment? Your reasons have the same twisted fundie logic that they use to condone ill treatment against gays and atheists and non-Christians.

    You are an atheist fundie.

  • Jeff

    Fundies say that atheists should be locked up. That gay people should be sent to prison. Are you seriously advocating the same kind of treatment?

    No – I think they should be made comfortable while we wait a generation or two for them to fade out of the genome.

    I’d probably clear out a few of the Southern states – they seem to have an affinity for that neck of the woods – and hold them there. I’d tell them they can have their little theocracy while they wait for Jesus to come and collect them from their play date – they just can’t reproduce and they can’t influence the rest of society in any way.

    You are an atheist fundie.

    Not at all. Firstly, a fundamentalist bases his/her opinions on what s/he he wants to believe, and discounts evidence. My arguments are based upon evidence; it’s just evidence that makes most people uncomfortable.

    In fact, I’d suggest that those of you who cling desperately to the belief that the family and friends you left behind in fundieland could join you, if only they could be made to see reason, may still be behaving as fundamentalists, because you hold that belief out of desire, not as a result of evidence.

    Secondly, I don’t advocate this treatment for liberal theists. Unitarians, Reform Jews, Liberal Muslims et. al. are welcome to join the rest of us in Sane Reality. I’m not even completely convinced they’re wrong. I think they are, but I’m not absolutely convinced of it. I’m not even a radical materialist.

    Now, if you want to say I’m a mean-spirited son of a bitch, that’s another matter. Guilty.

  • http://criticallyskeptic-dckitty.blogspot.com Kev Quondam, Kevque Futurum

    @Jeff:

    Read a few entries on FSTDT.com. See how much you sound exactly like those people?

  • Jeff

    You’re behaving like a fundie (although I don’t know whether or not you were one) – you think if you say something over and over, that makes it true.

    I’ve explained myself enough. I’m done.

  • Carlie

    As much as I despise fundamentalists, they aren’t wrong about everything, and one of the things about which they’re correct is that the atheist community, as a whole, is nothing to write home about.

    So, yes, I advocate the quarantining of fundamentalists. I make absolutely no apology for it.

    So, you’re trying to make the atheist community something that they write home about because they’re saying “hey, atheists are frighteningly genocidal people who want to exterminate us”? Yes, I can see how that will help the atheist movement.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “The most effeminate anatomically male worship leader” … sounds like Jesus (as depicted since the Spanish Inquisition, which eradicated his semitic features) to me.
     

  • Ness

    That sentence was difficult t0 decipher. I’m n0t entirely sure 0f his meaning, w0uld someone please clarify?

  • meg hanna

    driscoll is not saying that being a woman is a bad thing – quite the contrary. He’s saying that the design for man is to be manly – i.e.  protector, leader, provider. i’m not saying that a woman cant do these things – however as a single, divorced woman who, while waiting for my spouse, embodies all of the aforementioned characteristics, is in turn, a little rough around the edges. which is not the full embodiment of our feminine design.

    • Pam

      A woman providing for herself when she has no man to ‘provide for’ her is a bad thing. Right.

    • jghrufhr

      Honey, you need to report for deprogramming stat.

  • MonistA

    Actually he IS saying that because Christianity is a SEXIST religion.  That is why they hate gay people, if a man does the same thing as a woman(takes it), then guess what…that ROBS the male gender of our power.  Same with Lesbians, they act like men by giving it(strap on), then they are also robbing the male gender of their power.  Christians lie so much by denying these so blatantly obvious things.  But that is why I am an adversary and why I will stand in judgement of them till my dying breath.  They can’t tell the truth, so someone MUST hold them accountable.

  • Aaron

    I don’t get it. Driscoll has always struck me as an effeminate metrosexual who doth protest too much.


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