A Rebuttal to Ray Comfort’s ‘Are You a Good Person?’ Test

There’s a family in our neighborhood who hands out Jesus tracts banded to suckers on Halloween…it’s tempting to order a bunch of these to send out taped to massive candy bars…great idea!

There’s a family in our neighborhood who hands out Jesus tracts banded to suckers on Halloween…it’s tempting to order a bunch of these to send out taped to massive candy bars…great idea!

Why didn’t they go on with the other 6 commandments? Oh right, it would prove how outdated all this nonsense is.

Whoever made that humanist comic clearly is not a good person b/c they used comic sans.

Love it!  It seems like such a superior message to me…

Love it!  It seems like such a superior message to me…

To be fair, it is a comic.

I love how their video had “don’t lie, steal, commit adultry or swear”.

Adultry btw they got wrong – adultry was different in the time of mosus. Hey, they were incestuous and polygamous. Swearing they also got wrong, as it actually means invoking the NAME of god (Yahweh), specifically when you mean to have him doing things. No using Yahweh to cast spells that he’s not going to cast, for example. And they skipped over the crazy ones. “Don’t worship any other gods” – prejudiced. “Don’t make idols” – there goes the crucifix. “keep saturday holy” – so much for sunday. “Honor your father and mother” – even if they’re assholes. “Don’t desire what other people have” – because you’re going to hell for being jealous of others. I like the humanist version better “Don’t be a dick” – it’s easy and it works so much better. 

“Jesus never sinned… not even once.”  ROFL!!!

I love the humanist comic.  I want that on a poster for my office. 

EDIT: OMG… go to 5:38… man with wild mustache. “For God so loved the world that he gave his only forgotten son.”

Are you sure this isnt a humorous piece promoting atheism? Because when I see it, i dannot deny the man made nature of religion.

Watch the YouTube vid of Ray Comfort interviewing ThunderF00t – I couldn’t believe how ignorant, aggressive and rude Ray was. 

“Oh my God!” is “dragging God’s name through the dirt?”

Wow, that God dude is *really* over-sensitive.

I’m surprised they used the “forgotten son” guy… too funny.

Christianity really is a loathsome and disgusting philosophy. Be guilty for being anything other than absolute perfection, be guilty for being who you are, convince yourself that you are filthy and worthy of eternal torture… It’s sick.

“Have you ever helped out a person in need? Have you ever donated blood or given money to charity? Have you ever smiled at someone, even if was just once? Then, by your own admission, you are a philanthropist, a life saver, and a nice guy! And where do nice philanthropist live savers go when they die? That’s right! Heaven! So… I guess you don’t need Jesus. Never mind.”

That is adorable. I second the request that this be turned into a poster.

And don’t forget, most of that guilt is over “thought crimes” ! As I like to point out out them, their god is more concerned with thought crimes relating to him than how you treat other humans, not a very morally superiors being I’m afraid.

I’m a little hard of hearing, so, I had to listen to the mustache guy three times to be certain that he really did say ‘forgotten’.  Priceless!

Yes, I will go to Hell for that. However, that font did work for the chick tract and I’m on a new laptop with limited fonts installed. Need to rebuild my collection.

On a related note, I have ran into the Living Waters group in Huntington Beach before and was chosen to stand on the box and answer these questions. Every time I tried to point out the problem with the question instead of just saying what they wanted me to say they would cut me off and not allow me talk. Even more amusing, during a break in the “test” due to some loud bikes passing by I was pulled to the side and literally told that I am “not allowed to disprove them in front of other people and must save my questions and comments until after when it is just the two of us.”

Ray Comfort was there but it was one of his helpers who told me this.

At least you have the balls to own up to it
Congratulations Joe Hanson! You are still a good person!

At least you have the balls to own up to it
Congratulations Joe Hanson! You are still a good person!

They must need to pull people aside quite often, most five year olds are intellectually superior to Comfort and his boyfriend…

One of the first problems I’d have with Living Waters argument is having any respect for a god that doesn’t even obey his own commandments.

The worst problem about the whole so-called “Nice Guy Test” is that for  it to be even remotely relevant the guy needs to actually believe in that god and heaven and hell that the questioner refers to at the end. All the other guys that don’t believe in any of that superfluous fluff will just go: “So… that’s it? You’ve proved nothing about your god in that test. Instead you are just trying to guilt-trip me into taking a leap of logic that me being bad equals god exists… You don’t see how irrelevant this is?!”

At least that was the thought that raced through my mind when Ray tried desperately to pull the test on Thunderfoot.

 Just don’t do it again, ‘kay?
signed, God

This “test” takes it for granted that the ten commandments deserve to be followed. Whoops, lost me right there.

I think I’ve been thinking about religion only in terms of the abstract and the political for too long…the whole basis for xianity (according to this video) is completely absurd–god creates people who cannot help but break his ridiculous rules, but he loves the world and people so much that he kills his son in order to forgive them for breaking those rules…? As a live-long atheist, I have difficulty understanding how anyone could believe this without brainwashing.

Kudos to those who made it through that whole video. I could stand it for about two minutes.

The one-panel comic is cute and funny, but I find the page accompanying it falls into the trap that Cameron et al. *hope* you fall into — that is, arguing whether telling a few lies “really” makes you a liar, or stealing candy as a child “really” makes you a thief, etc.  This gets you stuck in their narrative on their terms.

It seems to me the simplest way through the Good Person script is just to keep agreeing with them:  ”Yep, I’m a liar.  Yep, I’m a thief.  Yep, Jesus says I’m an adulterer at heart.  Yep, I’m a blasphemer.”  Eventually, Kirk and Ray get to the crux of the argument (which is really just a repackaged, worse version of Pascal’s Wager):

K&R:  ”So if God were to judge you by the Ten Commandments, would you be innocent or guilty?”

Atheist:  ”Guilty, I guess.”

K&R:  ”And would you go to Heaven or Hell?”

Atheist:  ”If your God is in charge?  Hell, I guess.”

K&R:  ”Doesn’t that *concern* you?”

Atheist:  ”Nope.”

…and…  scene.  They honestly have no answer for that.

Since when is “thou shalt not lie,” one of the commandments? It’s “thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor,” which is a very narrow subset of lying. It allows for a world of other types of lies.

I’ve never heard of any version of the 10 Cs that included “thou shalt not lie.” Maybe it’s new? lol

It depends on which gods is judging me.  I mean I’ve been pretty good what with the blood donation, helping others, etc but I’ve never made a human blood sacrifice to Quetzalcoatl nor have I torn the still beating heart from a child’s chest to appease great Ah Pukuh.  I’m sure to be in plenty of trouble if they come to judge me.

I made in about 2-3 minutes before it became outright preaching in that video. The “lawlz” ran out after that.  

Religion is such a guilt trip.   The Christian God deserves an award as an epic troll seeing cooked the books so we all ‘sin’ and then said, “DON’T SIN”.

Here’s the Muslim version of the same idea http://urduislamicbooks.org/allah-is-watching/
(4:15 is pretty funny.  I guess Allah cares about drinking alcohol, but littering is fine)

I wonder if Policemen go to hell for working on the Sabbath.

Regarding this panel in the tract, if I have to go to hell for just thinking about sex with a woman without having done it, I’ll feel really cheated:
http://www.livingwaters.com/tracts/269/p3.jpg

I don’t think you’ll go to hell.  Maybe Heck.  Watch out for guys named Phil carrying spoons:-).

Atheist:  ”If your God is in charge?  Hell, I guess.”

K&R:  ”Doesn’t that *concern* you?”

How about just turning it back on them at this point, and asking, “Doesn’t it concern you that your all-knowing, benevolent God created a place where people can be tortured for all eternity?”  I still haven’t heard a good answer to that one.

Or emergency room doctors and nurses… or fire fighters… or, or, or… ministers!

This video actually does a great job of illustrating what religion is really about… policing the masses.  I too couldn’t believe the littering at 4:15… especially considered there was a trash bin right behind him!

NonStampCollector has a really good video on YouTube in answer to this!

Ray Comfort meets the Evangelist’s Nightmare
http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStampCollector#p/u/18/GXxtvAy4Rzs

A couple just recently came to my door and asked me this line of questioning. Here’s how I responded:
C: Have you ever lied?
Me: No.
C: Everyone’s lied. You’re lying right now.
Me: Can you prove that I’m lying?
C: No. But God knows you’re lying.
Me: Well, let’s ask God. God, have I ever told a lie? If you don’t respond I’ll take that as a no.
C: But God waits to the end of your life to confront you with all your sins.
Me: No, God doesn’t keep a record. Let me ask you, is God Love?
C: Yes.
Me: What is the most common Bible verse heard at weddings?
C: Uh, I don’t know.
Me: It’s 1st Corinthians 13:4. Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. So you see, God does not keep a record of wrongs.
C: But God will judge you for your wrongs.
Me: How will God know what to judge me with if he doesn’t keep a list of my wrongs?
C: I don’t know, He’s God. You must have done something wrong in your life.
Me: No. I’m a good person.
C: But because Adam sinned you are guilty.
Me: If Adam sinned, Adam’s guilty. Not me. If your parents were guilty of disobeying God, should you be punished?
C: No. But Adam’s crime was the worst possible crime.
Me: Look, you asked if I was a good person. You can’t prove that I’m not. You’re looking for some way to condemn me, and you can’t come up with anything. So you tell me I’m a bad person for something I didn’t do. You aren’t going to get a lot of followers that way. Goodbye.

The most incredible and thoroughly disgusting thought I got when watching this moronic cow shit was that over a billion of our fellow species believe all or most of the premise of this short as truth and as the ONLY way to live one’s life! I often wonder how much faster and more efficiently the human race would have developed/evolved/progressed had we had the benefit of a world without religion? Would we have conquered Mars by now? Would we have eradicated cancer? Other diseases? Where would our understanding of the human brain be? 

Anyway, just a thought. In the meantime, Cameron and Comfort can eat all of the cow shit they spew. Assholes. 

The fair started in my area. I went today. These idiots had a booth there. I almost threw up. Great big red and white sign “Are you a good person? Take the test.” Disgusting!

I think that I follow you Hugh. For instance, are you referring to the commandment that states”Thou shalt not steal”, and then subsequently, the children of Israel proceed to steal the land from the Canaanites, by slaughtering them, thereby violating the commandment, “Thou shalt not kill”. All of this because they coveted the land and riches contained in it. “Thou shalt not covet”.
But oh yes, God commanded them to take this land, because God promised it to them, and these people were idol worshipers. Therefore, the “pro-life” god commanded them to slaughter all the men, women and children, both born and unborn. That makes it all o.k.

The video is saying that nice guys don’t go to heaven only people that accept Jesus do. I am not sure I would want to spend eternity with some of the dicks that I have met that ‘have Jesus in their heart’. Hell would be spending eternity with Kirk Cameron.

Especially since God isn’t even God’s name!

What I got out of that is everybody goes to hell except Ray Comfort.

Why do people choose to reject the love and mercy of God? By rejecting God, you’re choosing to die with your sins and go to hell.

You seem to be mistaken. The purpose of Christianity isn’t to make you feel condemned. Heck, that’s not the purpose of the video. What the video is saying is that you may be a good person, but being a good person alone is not enough to get you to heaven. Only by knowing Jesus can you get to heaven. And that’s the true purpose of Christianity, getting to know Jesus and having a relashionship with Him.

Sucks for Mohandis Gandhi.

This side of the pond most Xians have abolished hell. Their choices are heaven or oblivion.  So that argument wount fly. Any suggestions for impossible questions to them?

I like how, in the tract, it says “only a corrupt judge” would let the guilty go free, but then creates a loophole so that god can do what they said was corrupt.

So maybe it isn’t corrupt if you say to the judge “I’m good friends with your son” and *then* they let you go free?

Its easy to reject what only exsist as memes in peoples minds. It is crazy to fear places that do not exsist.

Don’t forget about his second banana, Kirk Cameron.

Damn, that banana thing is a gift that just keeps giving.

His “love and mercy” seems more like blackmail.  “Do as I say, and you’ll be rewarded.  Don’t do as I say, and I hurt you terribly.”  Any God guilty of the crimes committed in his name (suicide bombers, abortion doctor murder, abuse of children) or credited to him (natural disasters, disease, pestilence) would not be worthy of worship.  In fact, if such an entity existed, I’d say humanity should declare war on such a malevolent tyrant.  Good thing it doesn’t exist.

Those who abolish hell are unlikely to make these kinds of arguments in my experience.  However, even if they do, the “Problem of Evil” is very hard to answer without making God seem like a complete dick.  “So, because two people disobeyed God 6000 years ago, children in Africa have to starve to death and thousands of babies die of terminal illness before they even learn to speak.”

There’s plenty of evidence God exists, you just have to know where and how to look for it.

And yes, it’s crazy to fear hell, or any place for that matter, for God did not give me a spirit of fear, but a spirit of love and self-discipline. (2Timothy 1:7)

What you’re refering to is religion. Any religion out there is about doing something to get something in return. Do good works to get closer to god. However, true Christianity is not a religion. There’s nothing you can do to work your way to heaven (the point of the video). All that’s required to get to heaven is that you receive the free gift of grace from God by accepting that His Son Jesus died to cover your sins. You don’t have to go to church, you don’t have to give money to the church, you don’t have to read the Bible. those things will not get you into heaven.

As for the question, “Why is there so much evil in the world?” Well, this is a rather loaded question, and one that cannot be fully explained.

First and foremost, this question relates back to free will. I have the free will to out and murder someone if I choose to. Yes, there’s concequences for that, but I still have the choice to do evil. If I didn’t have that choice, then I wouldn’t really have free will. Then we have Adam and Eve. When they committed the first sin, this allowed evil to enter the world.

As for questions like, “Why did God allow a family member to get killed by a drunk driver?” and “Why does God allow things like the earthquake in Japan to happen?” Those questions I cannot answer, but I have learned this. God has His reasons to allow such things. However, if we spend our time chasing after those reasons, you’re likely to develope a negative outlook on the world. Instead, just accept that these bad things did happen (yes, it can be a difficult thing to do) and continue with your life. If God wants you to know the reason behind these bad things, God will find a way to reveal that to you.

I agree with what you did. The Gospel should not be shared by forcing people to agree with some little skit they came up with. Accepting Jesus in your life has to be a personal choice. You should be free to ask questions anytime.

I don’t believe in gods.  I don’t believe in your god.  I don’t believe that your god offers love and mercy.  I don’t believe in sin and I don’t believe in hell.  There really isn’t anything that you’ve presented that I would consider believable enough to reject.  You need to understand that if you want to understand why atheists are swayed by talk of heaven and hell.

I find it unfortunate that you do not believe in my God. How about we discuss God on your level then? You’ve stated things you don’t believe in. My question to you is why don’t you believe in God?

Questions work both ways, so feel free to ask me a question you may have about God, and I will try my best to answer it.

Where is this evidence?

Are you a Mormon?  And if not, why not?  Why would you reject the latest and most up-to-date word of God?

I find it unfortunate that you do believe in gods. I don’t believe in gods because I find no reason to believe in them.  none of the arguments for the existence of any gods are sufficiently compelling.  The working definition for “god” is so ill defined as to be meaningless.  There are better explanations for god belief that the existence of an invisible deity.

My question:  What is “god”?  What do you mean by “god”?  Define “god”

No, I’m not a Mormon, I’m a Christian. Also, what do you mean by the most up to date word of God? Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:25)

I find it unfortunate that you’re missing out on a level of love and peace that can only be experienced through God. What am I missing out on by believing in God that you have obtained by not believing in God?
I don’t believe in gods. I have one God. As for your working definition for god, you are correct. In fact, there are many gods, but only one God.
A god can be anything that you love, worship, or otherwise hold in high esteem. Some people make money to be their god for instance. They love money so much that their goal in life it to collect as much money as possible. Some people might make a car out to be their god. For others, a sports star or other celebrity could be their god. They could have multiple gods in this sense as well. A god is simply anything that you idolize
My question for you: You find God unbelievable, what would it take for you to believe in God?

Both the Koran and the Book of Mormon supersede the Gospels.  But you’ve decided (I’m guessing without ever considering them) to stop at the 2nd major revision of the Abrahamic epic.

You asked why we would reject God, but you have rejected Mohamed and Joseph Smith- both prophets of God with as much (or more) evidence backing up their claims as Jesus.

When you understand why you’re not a Mormon, you may understand why I’m not a Christian.

(although, if you haven’t read the Book of Mormon, we’re still not quite on the same page, because I did read the bible (‘old’ and new T) in an attempt to understand why some people put so much stock in it)

There is evidence of God’s miracles all around. I’ve personally seen people get healed before my very eyes.

Or just take the Bible for instance. I’m sure you’ve heard people quote Bible verses to prove the Bible, but there’s a reason they can do that. You see, the Bible was not written by a single human author. The Bible has a lot of different authors. The authors of the old testiment for instance, lived centuries apart from the authors of the new testiment. The prophocies found in the old testiment are confirmed by the authors of the new testiment. Here’s the kicker. These authors never met, discussed their findings or anything, and yet thier words are in agreement. so now we have multiple people centuries apart, and they’re in agreement.

Or we could get into Bible prophecy that’s happing in the world right now if you’d like.

What did Mohamed and Joeseph Smith do for me that Jesus didn’t do?

“I find it unfortunate that you’re missing out on a level of love and peace that can only be experienced through God. ”

I’ve had that exact same argument posed to me by Muslims and Mormons.  Not being a Muslim or a Mormon, I don’t know.  But THEY sure seem to think you’re missing out on something special.

That you require a belief in a Heavenly Father to feel that level of Love and Peace doesn’t mean that we have to.  You presume that because it fills a void for you, that it would for us.  I get immense joy listening to my son tell me about his day, and explain to me why his water bottle made a ‘pft’ sound when he opened it.

Also, it’s not like taking a pill (which btw can also produce feelings of peace and joy).  Pretending to believe in God would offer me no peace.  I’ve tried.  I could hold up 3 fingers and tell you there are 4.  You could even say there are 4.  But so long as you know there are 3, it would be a lie.Imagine if I told you you could attain a level of Peace and Love you had never known if you would just believe in Thor.  Even if you believed that this was true, it wouldn’t suddenly make you believe in Thor.  You know Thor doesn’t exist, and you can’t change that any more than you can believe I’m holding 4 fingers when you see only 3.

As for what you’re missing out, I wouldn’t presume to know.

until the last part i was sure this was a video ridculing christianity, seariously.

…how is that not intended to do anything but make people feel condemned?

“Everything you can possibly do isn’t worth shit, now beg for mercy”

Only by bribing the bouncer can you get into a country club? 

Didn’t you ever hear the story of the King and the peasent?

A mighty King who had a reputation for being harsh and a loaf from his followers staged a parade through town.  One peasant found himself in the street when he saw the parade come by and in a panic broke into his neighbors house to hide, he was arrested but he guards and brought before the king where the king asked him why he broke into his neighbors house.  the peasant replied that he was hiding because he was afraid fo the king.  The King responded by beating him to death with his scepter screaming “YOU’RE NOT SUPPOSED TO FEAR ME!  YOU’RE SUPPOSED TO LOVE ME!”

“As for questions like, “Why did God allow a family member to get killed
by a drunk driver?” and “Why does God allow things like the earthquake
in Japan to happen?” Those questions I cannot answer, but I have learned
this. God has His reasons to allow such things.”

So you don’t know but want us to believe you anyway?

” If I didn’t have that choice, then I wouldn’t really have free will. Then we have Adam and Eve.”

So is there freewill in heaven or are people stripped of freewill and thus identity?  Or is there sin in heaven too?

 Ask a Jew about those prophecies. 

“There is evidence of God’s miracles all around. I’ve personally seen people get healed before my very eyes.”

How do you know it’s not some other mechanism or a demon tricking you? 

 he corrected the testaments that had fallen out of line with The Word due to the sinful nature of human translators!  

 ”My question for you: You find God unbelievable, what would it take for you to believe in God?”

If he is as described in the bible he knows and is failing to provide it. 

You are correct. The video’s purpose may be to make you feel condemned. If the video is meant for evangelical purposes, and non-believers are coming back with comments like this, then the video clearly isn’t doing a very good job.

Christianity itself is not about feeling condemned. I’m sorry if videos and religious groups make you feel like this.

Your questions I cannot answer. As I already mentioned, God has His reasons for allowing such evils. What His reasons are, I do not know. But that’s what faith is all about, trusting God even when you do not know the answer yourself.

As  for heaven, I can’t really say what it’s going to be like. In fact, now you’re getting into questions that I still have about God and the Bible. Yes, that’s right, I still have many questions myself. Some of them have been answered over time, and some I’ll just have to  wait and find out for myself.

Satan and his demons generally aren’t interesting in healing/helping people. They would just as soon see us all be dead. Just look at when Jesus allowed the demon spirits to enter into a herd of animals. The animals instantly committed suicide.

God is not required to meet you at your level. Sometimes He does, if it is His will, as he did with Thomas. I will pray that God reveal Himself to you.

This particular video isn’t aimed at us.  It’s aimed an nominal Christians with the purpose of making them follow 4 of the 10 commandments, go to church regularly etc.  Ray opens his spiel with “You believe in God don’t you?”  It’s hard to feel condemned by a God you don’t believe in.

What bothers me is when people dismiss me knowing only that I lack faith.  Faith isn’t a virtue, and in and of itself doesn’t make one a good or bad person.  I don’t care if you think I’m going to hell.  I just request to be evaluated here on earth by my works, not my faith.

then maybe that’s why I’m not a believer.  God hasn’t chosen to reveal himself to me.  I’ve asked God, and he hasn’t replied.  Ball’s in his court.

Saying you believe in my God will not neseccarily get you the level of peace and love I’m tlaking about. It also isn’t something you try to obtain either.

As for your joy, I just have these questions. What happens when something bad happens in your life, are you still joyful in these times thinking about your son? Does the joy you get leave you feeling as if you want more later, like you can never be filled?

I’m not saying having joy from your son is a bad thing, not at all. I’m happy for you that you are able to enjoy such things in life, because not everyone can have experiences such as yours.

Ok, but he didn’t die for me to cover my sins.

I’m not here to argue or force my beliefs down anyone’s throat. I am here just to share. Believing in God is your choice.  If you don’t want to choose Him, or any other religion, you are free to do so.

God may reveal Himself to you, but it may not be in the way you’re expecting. Same thing happened to me. Just try to keep that in mind, ok?

“I’m not here to argue or force my beliefs down anyone’s throat.”

You asked, so I’m just describing my shoes as best I can.  We all reject some God.  And Mohamed didn’t die on the cross, but according to Allah’s perfect word spoken through Mohamed and recorded in the Holly Koran, you’re not going to go to Heaven if you skip friday prayers without good reason.  But if you die for Allah, you get a bonus of 72 dark eyed virgins.  Or grapes.  There may be a translation issue.  Unless you’re a woman of course, in which case your reward is that you get your husband back in Heaven.  The point is, the bible is written by people, inspired by God.  The Koran cuts out the middle man.  It is the exact, precise (and in the original perfect Arabic) untranslated word of God (grapes vs. virgins notwithstanding).

I don’t feel like I reject God so much as I withhold judgement until God decides to settle it.  Until then, I reject out of hand worshiping any god that doesn’t understand the simple concept of unconditional love.

 Except it is an accurate representation of the Faith not Works Grace theology.  Meaning it’s not the packaging that’s the problem, it’s the message. 

No he just taught you the correct ways and rites to enter Kingdom!  Every church but the LDS is wrong and a false idol.  You will go to Mormon hell or at least not be granted the highest exhaltation if you ignore the Prophet!

No it ISN’T a choice.  I cannot choose to be convinced by the implausible.  Don’t defend the fact that you suck at evangelizing.  

So to recap.  You don’t know, you don’t believe you CAN know, but you’ve become convinced that your ignorance is no obstacle against believing you’re right and you’ve given up caring whether you’re right. 

So far all you’ve demonstrated is that your belief makes you comfortable with profound willful ignorance.  

 Except that the Forces of the Anti-Christ will mimic the powers of Jesus…and some believe that Satan already mimicked the stories of Jesus and miracles claims to deceive people away from Christianity.  And then there’s the miracles of other religions.

Also how do you KNOW what demons want.  Clearly one could be just a pest while other higher demons could be in it for the long game. 

You’ve already admitted you’re not an authority on any of these topics and you have profound ignorance.  Your insistence to argue as if you are knowledgeable is profoundly arrogant. 

If God reveals himself but in a way he knows that i will not recognize it than he’;s dine a poor jobhe’s doen a poor job  

 If we were joyful in times that would be sorrowful we wouldn’t be sentient.  We would be like rocks and not responsive to our environment.   Anything, like your God or Heaven, that claims it can make something like knowledge of genocide or rape or murder not affect my happiness is monstrous to me. 

 Prove Jesus did

God will reveal the reasons to me if and when He chooses to. It is not my responsibility to know everyting.

I came here to share and discuss, not to argue. You are free to take what I say and do what you please.

As for the Anti-Christ, well informed and prepared Christians will be able to recognize him. As for knowing what Satan’s goals are, the enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy. Those are his goals according to John 10:10

I came here to share and discuss, not to argue. You are free to take what I say and do what you please.

As for the Anti-Christ, well informed and prepared Christians will be able to recognize him. As for knowing what Satan’s goals are, the enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy. Those are his goals according to John 10:10

How is that cutting out the middle man? If Allah is speaking through Mohamed, that’s no different than God speaking through the authors of the Bible. However, the differnce comes in that Mohamed is one person, one author, whereas the Bible has many different authors, centuries apart who never met or conversed, and yet their words are in agreement.

As for the skipping friday prayers part, that relates back to what I was saying about religion. Doing something to get something in return. True Christianity does not require you to pray at specific times, go to church every week, or read the Bible every day in order to get to heaven. Salvation is a free gift from God, all you must do is receive it.

And God is all about unconditional love. He loves you right now, even if you don’t love Him. God loved you before you were born, and He will continue to love you. The Bible says love is patient, and God will continue to wait for you.

Ing, I think we should continue our discussion here. the words are becomming cramped and difficult to read.
 
How you need God to reveal himself to you is something that I’m going to leave between you and God. However, believing in God is a personal choice. You’re free to believe in Him, and you are free not to.
 
As for being joyful in the face of difficult times, there seem to be a few misconceptions in the air. First, I’m not saying that have to completely disregard other emotions. It’s how you deal with your emotions and feelings that’s important. Jesus got angry. When I heard about murder and widespread natural disasters on the news, yes, it makes me sad too. But it’s important that you don’t let these emotions and feelings consume you. You see, if you’re constantly thinking about and chasing after why so many bad things are happening in the world, you’ll develope a negative view of the world. It’s important to trust God here and trust that God has a plan and He knows what he’s doing.
 
Now, as for Morman and Muslim prophets, they are just that, prophets. My faith is not based in prophets, but in God himself. You seem to know a lot about other religions, so let me ask you this. Do you know what the differnce is between Christianity and any other religion out there?

Muslims believe that the Koran is the exact word of Allah, as if Allah took Mohammed’s hand in his own and guided it, as opposed to Mohammed writing Allah’s general thoughts but using his own word.  If Mathew/Mark/Luke/John had been speaking God’s words exactly, they’d all be writing the exact same words.  You say “their words are in agreement”.  We may disagree on how important the disagreements are, but there are certainly numerous discrepancies.     

Likewise Smith was listening to a golden disk translate a stone tablet, and someone else in the room carefully wrote down Smith’s dictation word for word. (or something pretty close to that, I’m hazy on Mormon history).  Of course, challenged to repeat this feat, Smith said it could only be done once, but he had another set of tablets from a different point of view, so the story would be similar, but not identical word for word.

“Salvation is a free gift from God, all you must do is receive it.”

“ By rejecting God, you’re choosing to die with your sins and go to hell.”

If God loved me unconditionally hell would not be an option.  There are things my son could do that would make me want him in prison, but simply so he could not hurt other people.  There’s nothing he could do, or reject that would make me want to see him tortured.  For eternity.

The problem with this scenario is that they want to trap you into arguing about whether you’re actually a good person. If I’m ever asked this question, I’ll cut them off right at the beginning.

Q:  “Would you consider yourself a good person?”

A:  “Is this the part where you tell me that I’m a liar, a thief, and an adulterer? Your question assumes that the Bible matters. It doesn’t. It may be your favorite book, but it is completely irrelevant. There is not a shred of evidence to indicate a supernatural realm or any sort of afterlife, and so  it does not matter what the Bible has to say about anything at all. Your ‘hook’ is only going to catch people who already believe your basic premise that the Bible is true and that your deity is real.”

So what? The placebo effect is a well known and well documented phenomena.  That is assuming that some con man didn’t set up the “healing” in order to extract money from the gullible.  Get a “healer” into a laboratory to reproduce their voodoo in controlled conditions and I’d give it some credence.

You cannot quote the bible to prove the bible.  That is circular reasoning.  Also you don’t even know who the authors were so making claims about them is foolish.

By all means talk about bible prophecies.  Let’s see a clear and unambiguous prophecy in the bible that is now being played out in reality.

Mega, if you genuinely want a conversation may I suggest joining the forums.  There’s a link at the top of the page.  There are plenty of atheists and theists who would be more than happy to discuss your faith with you and you wouldn’t have to deal with these horribly indented comments.

What discrepancies are you talking about?

As for Matthew/Mark/Luke/John not having the same exact words, it would just be silly if they did. Those books of the Bible are written as their personal account of their time with Jesus. It would be the same thing as you and me going to an amusement park (random example) and writting a summary of what we did that day. Even if we were together and rode all the same rides, our words are going to be different in our summaries.

As for hell, God does not want to send people to hell. In fact, I’d say he doesn’t send people to hell. People choose to go to hell themselves when they choose to reject God’s love and mercy.

Just google ‘bible contradictions’. And yes you’ll find apologists’ explanations.  Sometimes essentially saying “ya, that doesn’t matter”.  Point is, if God cares about his word, he’s being intentionally obtuse.  Must be a test.  He likes to test us a lot.  Ever consider that the correct answer to the test might be the rejection of the bible as the word of God?  After all, he supposedly gave an updated version in his own words to clarify a few things writers and compilers of the bible got wrong.

I personally think things like Ex 21 are inconsistent with the idea of a loving merciful God.  Say all you want about context- that’s not something that something I’d love would ever say.  Or allow said in its omnipotent name.

And there’s the old standby Gen 22.  The correct answer to that test btw is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQorzOS-F6w&t=5m22s 
“People choose to go to hell”Like an abused woman chooses for her husband to beat her because she rejects his love and mercy.  Love at gunpoint (or hellpoint if you will) is not love.

Read As: Yes Ing, your summary was completely accurate.

Let me guess!

A personal relationship with jesus christ the lord and creator of the universe?
Religions are about doing things to satisfy god, christianity is about having a personal relationship with god?

Or some such drivel?

Because Jesus is a scapegod, he absolves you of your sin, so you’re not judged by your works, but merely your acceptance of Jesus Christ. (or not by your works alone in some versions).

Bernard Shaw skewers this idea in Androcles and the Lion, in which one of his characters representing a type of Christian chooses Christianity because he thinks it means he can do whatever he wants, so long as he repents before he dies.  The Christians I know dismiss the idea, saying you can’t just be a total dick on purpose, accept Jesus in name only, and get into Heaven.  But I’ve had people knock on my door and literally tell me that as long as I say the words, I’m guaranteed entry into Heaven.  Or if you’ve been baptized (even as an infant).  Or as long as you don’t reject God, since that’s the only unforgivable sin.

Hemant, my comments keep disappearing. I’ve made four other comments on this thread in the last 24 hours, and they’ve all disappeared. What’s going on? 

It is your responsibility to be informed about the decisions that you make.

In a sense, Jesus is a scapegoat.

However, those people you talked to are wrong. Your attitude towards sin is important. If you think it’s ok to go around and sin as much as you want, God will not forgive that. If you come to God with your sins, and you truely repent, God will forgive.

Also, being baptized does not get you into heaven, especially not infant baptism. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that baptism isn’t important or that you shouldn’t get baptized, just know that it isn’t the reason you’re going to heaven. As for infant baptism, do you know where that idea originated? It came about in the 1300′s (ish, I may have the wrong century, never been good with knowing dates, the rest is accurate). People at that time were dying left and right due to plauges and illnesses. This was especially true for babies. People came to the church and asked what they should do about this problem, especially for their babies. The answer they came up with was to baptize those babies. The reason for infant baptism came about just to make people feel better. It hold no biblical grounds. Baptism needs to be a choice by the individual. Babies that die obviously have not developed enough to conciuosly accept Jesus into their life. However, it’s ok. Jesus got baptized for those who are unable to get baptized.

Ah yes, I had actually wondered about things like that for a long time. My questions were answered one day from a sermon I heard while in college. The preacher started by talking about all the things the Bible says a person must do if they have Lepresy. There’s actually about 4 chapters regard that subject. It was basically saying the person with Lepresy must exile themselves from society. Why would this exist in the Bible, and as a part of God’s law nonetheless? The answer: the law described in the old testement is a shadow of the Kingdom of Heaven. In other words, it shows what heaven is not like. 

I don’t cause natural disasters, therefore I am not responsible for knowing why they take place.

What I think make infinitely more sense is that the bible, like all other religious texts, is a work of people, with no divine intervention, reflecting the customs and morals of the time in which the particular segment was written.  In that light, it all make perfect sense.  In any other, you have God setting up rules by which women and children are chattel.

What I think make infinitely more sense is that the bible, like all other religious texts, is a work of people, with no divine intervention, reflecting the customs and morals of the time in which the particular segment was written.  In that light, it all make perfect sense.  In any other, you have God setting up rules by which women and children are chattel.

“However, those people you talked to are wrong.”

On that we agree.  Although I’m sure they think you’re wrong too.  For all the bible’s supposed consistency, a lot of people read it very differently.

“However, those people you talked to are wrong.”

On that we agree.  Although I’m sure they think you’re wrong too.  For all the bible’s supposed consistency, a lot of people read it very differently.

I never saidthatyoudid.That doesn’t stop it being your responsibility to be informaed about the decisions thatyoumake.

They can think I’m wrong all they want. They wouldn’t be disagreeing with me, they’d be disagreeing with the Bible.

It’s not so much that people read the Bible differently (they do, but the real issue is a bit different). The real issue is denominational churches in general. Denominational churchs add their own man made rules and practices (like infant baptism), that are not supported by the Bible. Some of these rules and practices contradict what’s written in the Bible.

Ok, let’s ignore any divine intervention when it comes to people writing the Bible for a minute. The Bible, unlike other relgious texts, was written by a lot of different authors, spanning centuries apart. These people never met, never collaborated, and yet their words are in agreement. If you ignore God in that equation, then the only explaination you have is coincidense. However, don’t you find that to be too coincidental?

When a miraculous healing takes place, it is done at the will of God. Man has no control over the will of God. You cannot command a healing to perform a healing in a laboratory at your command. The only way that would happen is if it was the will of God. The will of God is not like some actor or singer that will perform when they’re told to.

As for Bible propecy, sure, we can go there real quick. Revelation 13:7 says “And he was given authority over every tribe, people, languange and nation.” This verse is referring to the Antichrist. Now, what’s going on in the world that relates to this verse? Check the headlines in the news for talk of a one world government. As we speak, the European Union is looking for a leader for this one world government that can “persuade every nation with his words.” How does all this relate back to the verse? Simple. Wouldn’t you agree that the leader of a one world government would have authority over all the nations? Of course, it would only make sense. Whether they know it or not, the person they’re looking for to lead their one world governement idea is the antichrist.

As for your suggestion to join the forum, that’s a great idea. Thank you.

Ok, let’s ignore any divine intervention when it comes to people writing the Bible for a minute. The Bible, unlike other relgious texts, was written by a lot of different authors, spanning centuries apart. These people never met, never collaborated, and yet their words are in agreement. If you ignore God in that equation, then the only explaination you have is coincidense. However, don’t you find that to be too coincidental?

These people did not write in a vacuum.  In fact, many of the consistencies  were also consistent with other religion stories.  The flood is a common mythology, as is the virgin birth.  And whatever hypothesis you adhere to for the authors of the canonical gospels, they either built on previous versions, or at least had a common source (so called ‘Q’) to draw on. 

And lastly, the whole thing goes through the canon filter.  A committee decides what is appropriate, and what to leave out.  And different committees representing different major sects of Christianity come up with different decisions as to what is canon.

If you’ve never seen Joseph Campbell/Bill Moyers “The Power of Myth”, I highly recommend it as a broad introduction to human mythology.  When you see the big picture, and how common these themes are, the Christian versions become a lot less remarkable.  (Campbell never left his church, but he did say the perspective cost him a loss of faith, which he missed.  Moyers remains United Church of Christ- so these aren’t anit-Christian people).  Campbell talks about some of the texts left out of the canon, including some very interesting versions of Satan.  Oh, and don’t get me going on how it is that Ashara didn’t make the cut!

Maybe there’s some specific example you’re thinking about, but I don’t know of any cases of two completely separate people coming up with eerily similar versions of things.  I’ve seen bible prophecy used to ‘prove’ the bible, but it’s kind of like listening to Stairway to Heaven backwards- if you know what you’re looking for, your mind can fill in an incredible number of gaps.  Many bible prophecies keep getting re-filled as world events occur to match them.  The end of times has been at hand for over 2000 years.  I thought the United Nations was the ‘one world government’.  A lot of people have been the antichrist.

I won’t have any chance to follow up for a few days, so if I don’t reply, don’t take it personally.  And since you originally asked why someone would reject God and choose hell- here’s a version that answers it for me, and I think a lot of atheists http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iClejS8vWjo

When you understand why you’re not a Mormon, you may understand why I’m not a Christian.

Not quite.

Just pretend I’m a Jew then.  Wouldn’t the process of me rejecting Jesus as the son of God be the same as a Christian rejecting the Koran as the ‘correct’ word of God?  It wasn’t meant to be “I just reject one more faith” but “picking your version of God’s word”.  Agree I didn’t put it well, but that’s the angle I was going for anyway.

Seeing as there’s plenty of Jews who, upon actually looking at who Yeshua ben Joseph was etc. accept that he was the messiah, I’d say it’s a whole lot less glib than what you’re implying.

To suggest that The Book of Mormon and the Quran have the same level of continuity with the NT that the NT has with the Tanakh is unsupportable IMO.

Your comment about healing is an assertion.  If you can’t back it up with evidence then  how can you expect anyone to give it credence?

You Revelation quote says nothing about a world government.  I suggest that you are reading too much into it and layering it with a shovel full of confirmation bias. Don’t you have anything that isn’t so ambiguous that a carny soothsayer couldn’t have come up with better?

I hope to see you on the forums.  You may well be challenged to back up your assertions there too.

My favorite part is the comic only asks about two of the Ten Commandments. I’d like to ask Mr. Comfort if he’s ever observed the Sabbath, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and the Festival of Weeks. Those are all commanded in the ten commandments (the actual ten commandments, the ones the Bible actually CALLS “The Ten Commandments” at Exodus 34).

To suggest that the bible (any of it) has the same supernatural perfection of language is unsupportable in the opinion on a native Arabic speaking Muslim I once worked with. Hey, I think you’re all wrong.  But to suggest any book has any kind of lock on being ‘obviously the one’ is unsupportable, as evidenced by the number of different people who are sure their own book is ‘the’ book.  You can’t all be right, and plenty of people have arguments for their book that are just as valid as your arguments for your book.  Of course, they think your arguments are invalid too.

 Something I rarely see pointed out is…If we are to believe that God’s nature is the objective moral standard and his commands must be consistent with his holy & loving nature.  Why does God not follow his own moral standards and laws?  Why not test God with the Ray/Kirk test?  Have you ever Killed?  Have you ever lied or Hardened someone’s Heart (aka tempted)?   Guilty!  Guilty!  If God were to be judged by his own moral standards where do you think he would spend eternity?  Hummmm….You can’t have it both ways!