Explain Why You Hook Up (or Don’t)

Christian author Don Miller, who so ungracefully told men and women what they should do if they ever wanted to find love (and then deleted the posts when even Christians pushed back against his advice), wants to know why women “hook up”:

… I am curious about why some girls give up sex easily and whether or not they view their sexuality as a commodity. In other words, do you use sex for some kind of social power or to make yourself feel good?

So, you meet a guy, you have sex after a couple interactions, and you walk away. What did you gain from the experience and what, if anything, did you you lose?

Did it make you feel powerful? Did it make you feel beautiful?

I’m guessing he’s going to get a lot of responses from Christian women, but if you’d like to tell him your reasons for hooking up (or not, if that’s the case), I’m sure some alternative perspectives would be appreciated. Especially if premarital sex didn’t “damage” you in some way.

(Actually, I think he might also be surprised to hear from women who aren’t religious but have personal reasons for not hooking up.)

In case anyone’s wondering why he’s not asking men the same question, Miller responds, “All questions can’t be asked at the same time to all groups of people.”

***Update***: Miller asks for the guys’ responses here.

About Hemant Mehta

Hemant Mehta is the editor of Friendly Atheist, appears on the Atheist Voice channel on YouTube, and co-hosts the uniquely-named Friendly Atheist Podcast. You can read much more about him here.

  • http://yetanotheratheist.com/ TerranRich

    From a male’s perspective, all I can say is that there’s the possibility that sex isn’t such a huge deal to these women, and it’s just something fun to share with somebody else. To Christians, sex is often this huge prize that should only be awarded after marriage; to give it away before then, to many different people, is a foreign concept to many Christians. It’s just not as big a deal to most people as it is to these Christians.

    • Guest

      It’s a big deal everywhere.  Even in countries like India where, although the religion doesn’t exclaim purity, the society does.  It’s so easy to indulge in sex. There is a reason for waiting and modern divorce statistics are starting to show a correlation with abstinence before marriage and marital bliss.  What’s most disturbing is how hypocritical people are.  They live promiscuously and then hope to marry a virgin.  Why not marry a non-virgin like themselves?  Why are the virgin’s put on a pedestal?  

      • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ Anonymous

        I don’t know, and I’d rather have a partner that knows what s/he’s doing than have to train a virgin.

      • http://nathandst.blogspot.com NathanDST

        I did marry a non-virgin, and would’ve refused to wed a virgin (as in, would’ve refused to marry someone I hadn’t already slept with before the proposal, making sure that we were sexually compatible). 

        Indeed, why are YOU putting virginity on a pedestal?

      • Anonymous

        Virginity is of no interest to me whatsoever.  I’m with a person that I love because I love them, not because they’ve “saved” themselves for me.  

  • cl hanson

    I wrote one of my all-time favorite posts on this very subject!

    Please see: An Immodest Proposal: sex on the first date?

    • http://diaryofamessylady.wordpress.com/ Lauren

      “The third and final reason for this practice is that it catches them off guard. …You just can’t buy entertainment like that.”
      So true. I almost feel sorry for them. … Almost.

    • http://diaryofamessylady.wordpress.com/ Lauren

      “The third and final reason for this practice is that it catches them off guard. …You just can’t buy entertainment like that.”
      So true. I almost feel sorry for them. … Almost.

    • http://gloomcookie613.tumblr.com GloomCookie613

      ” Hey, my time is valuable, people!”

      You owe me a new keyboard! I totally spit water all over the place, laughing, when I got to that part!

    • Eric

      Being Mormon, I never heard of any such practice. It is easy to get into the temple, and it doesn’t happen after six weeks. And there are no quick trips to the Temple, as if you’re getting married in the Temple, you’re going to have every single one of your seriously LDS family members through your a party afterward, after which they will deliver you to the airport for your honeymoon. I’m not saying LDS people don’t have sex out of wedlock, as they do, but they don’t do this six week thing described above… And I do know about my religion and the ways people practice it.

      Psychologically speaking, having sex before becoming achieving intimacy, which is not sex, derails the process of becoming intimate. So, as why so many relationships which start out with sex on the first date and in the ash heap.

      Not saying women should remain virgins until marriage, just saying that your points here are factually and theoretically incorrect.

      Eric

  • http://twitter.com/TPRyan007 TPRyan

    How do you hook up these days? Asking someone for coffee is a no-no.

    • onecheesemoon

      I don’t know how you would “hook up” with some random date, but I just straight up ask if I know the person (if I’ve talked to them enough to at least call them a casual friend). 

      Sometimes takes them aback, but I’ve found that people tend to appreciate the straight-forward attitude…it may just be the people I gravitate towards that are cool with that, though. They tend to be more subtle than I am if not straight up asked, but they tend to be open to sexuality, don’t see it as a “sacred” thing, and if they’re religious, they’re not dogmatic or really into their faith.

    • http://thefloatinglantern.wordpress.com/ Tim Martin

      Too soon! :P

      • http://twitter.com/TPRyan007 TPRyan

        It’s not too soon! No one died or anything. A woman, no more important than any other woman, has had a difference of opinion. Let’s not make her out to be anything more than that. 

    • http://diaryofamessylady.wordpress.com/ Lauren

      Usually I ask them to buy me something with some alcohol in it. :)

      • Skarab

        As some ancient Chinese philosopher said, “Drink til you want me!”

      • http://twitter.com/TPRyan007 TPRyan

        A pint of cider with a twist of vodka then? You’re welcome!

    • http://jadehawks.wordpress.com Jadehawk

      if your attempts at hooking up all started with 1)targeting women who’ve explicitly said they’re not interested in being hit on, and 2) the first words coming out of your mouth are an euphemism for “let’s go upstairs and fuck”, it’s no wonder you have such problems hooking up

      the rest of us OTOH do not have such problems.

      • http://twitter.com/TPRyan007 TPRyan

        It was, of course, a joke. If people weren’t so sensitive and self-important we wouldn’t have these problems. As for me having problems “hooking up”? I think not. 

  • http://neamhspleachas.com Molly Rene

    I realize Don Miller may not believe this but some women actually enjoy having sex. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Kenneth-Dunlap/1418932885 Kenneth Dunlap

      …but….but…. sex is for men…. right?

      • http://thegodlessmonster.com/ The Godless Monster

        Yes, single men.

    • http://thegodlessmonster.com/ The Godless Monster

      “I realize Don Miller may not believe this but some women actually enjoy having sex.”
      Yes, just not with him.

  • Missnye00

    Would you buy a car without test-driving it first?

    • onecheesemoon

      CarFax could tell you how it was for others…same with people? ;P

      • Shouldbeworkin’

        SexFax?

  • randomatheist

    It really seems like the only way consenting adults can possibly be ‘damaged’ by sex is when religion is involved. Otherwise it’s a normal biological function and a personal choice/preference. He’s a twit.

  • http://twitter.com/gingerjet gingerjet

    As a gay male I’m getting a kick out of the responses.  A lot of self-confidence issues in that thread.

  • The Captain

    Wow! The comments on his site are really really fucking sad. Only gone through a few but  it seems many of these christian women don’t actually enjoy the physical act of sex (Miller I think also views sex as something a woman does not enjoy)! Many of their “reasons” ARE to get something, either some kind of emotional attention, gain peer status, or for them to believe they are in control of their lives. I mean shit, no one is saying because it feels fucking great to orgasm. Are christian men so bad at sex this is what they turn their women into?????

    • Anonymous

      Who would know?  I mean if Christians save themselves for marriage then they only get to screw one person and they don’t have any basis for comparing the sex they have with the sex that had before.  Some don’t even get to compare the sex they have with their own fingers ‘cos having a wank is almost as bad as having a fuck in some dogmas.

    • Anonymous

      Its really hard to enjoy sex when you’ve been told your whole life that you are a worthless slut if you do.  And yes I expect that christian men are bad at it because they haven’t been taught to value the needs of the woman in sex because sex is for making babies not having fun.  

      Even being an ex-christian it took me years of having sex to really be able to enjoy it without the mindfuck making me feel guilty or ashamed in some way.  Even after being married.  Woman have to be able to be relaxed in order to truly have an orgasm and its hard with all that dogma crammed in the brain.

      • Nena

        You are so right about women having to be relaxed and able to enjoy themselves in order to orgasm. Guilt prevents both those conditions. I had a terrible time coming to a climax when I was a christian; I almost never did, in fact.

        I was one of those lucky ones who, once I finally got over the hump of fear and indoctrination, completely and totally let go of every emotional tie to christianity. The first partner I began dating after becoming an atheist (who is still my current partner) has been able to please me beyond what I ever, ever thought could happen. It makes me sad and angry to think how much pleasure I missed out on in my younger years because I was convinced that sex was dirty and shameful.

        And you know what? Good sex does make me feel beautiful. It’s part of the endorphine release, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

      • griffox

        It’s so good to hear that I’m not the only one who has struggled with sex even after leaving Christianity. I heard a lot about that sex thing growing up. I was never told that it was to be enjoyed by women. I knew men enjoyed it and that’s why it was my responsibility to turn them down and protect my purity. I was told this even before I really understood what sex was. The message I got was, “Sex is really bad. Don’t do it no matter what (until, of course, you’re married. Then it’s your duty.)

        My hangups arose along with pesky biological desires which I didn’t understand. Despite all the sex talks as a youngster, NO ONE bothered to mention that I would experience sexual desire! I was convinced that I was some sort of sick, perverted deviant. Your choice of the word, “mindfuck” is truly the only way to describe it.

        I still have a hard time relaxing and have never had an orgasm with a partner. I don’t feel bad about sex, I just don’t enjoy it as fully as I know I could. I feel silly and humiliated, not powerful and sensuous and I’ve had nothing but kind, supportive partners. I still feel angry that something so personal was taken away from me before I even knew what was happening, but I am encouraged that you were able to overcome your inhibitions and I really hope that I will too, someday.

        This is one of the many reasons why I support sex education in schools. Kids need to know that it’s normal to masturbate and feel desire, especially girls, because that’s something that most women don’t talk about or admit to.

  • Larennaise

    Maybe I don’t know what “hooking-up” means.  Does it mean just having “no-string-attached” sex?

    Hmm.  I was a virgin till my hubby and I married (we were devout Christians, we’re atheists now) and have a Great sex life.  I’m very, very happy.

    Now, if I were to be widowed. . . I don’t think I would “hook-up”.  I would still want sex to be meaningful, and it only is so if I give it meaning.  To share it with just every Joe would cheapen it –for me–!  I realize this isn’t the way many people view it, but sex is still be special for me–even as an atheist.  I share it only with my husband because it’s special between me and him.

    I wouldn’t wait until I was married to have sex, but it would be part of a meaningful relationship to me.  If I just want friendship, we’ll play tennis or watch movies or catch a dinner.  If I want relief. . . I have a vibrator.  ;)

    • Guest

      You waited for your husband.  That’s why you have such a fulfilling life.  I aspire to do the same.  People who wait till marriage have the best lives.  The exclusivity is what makes it special.

      • http://nathandst.blogspot.com NathanDST

        Actually, the “exclusivity” is not what makes it special. The relationship is what makes it special. Neither I nor my wife were virgins on our wedding night, but golly gee, we still have a wonderful marriage that I think is quite special. 

  • Larennaise

    Maybe I don’t know what “hooking-up” means.  Does it mean just having “no-string-attached” sex?

    Hmm.  I was a virgin till my hubby and I married (we were devout Christians, we’re atheists now) and have a Great sex life.  I’m very, very happy.

    Now, if I were to be widowed. . . I don’t think I would “hook-up”.  I would still want sex to be meaningful, and it only is so if I give it meaning.  To share it with just every Joe would cheapen it –for me–!  I realize this isn’t the way many people view it, but sex is still be special for me–even as an atheist.  I share it only with my husband because it’s special between me and him.

    I wouldn’t wait until I was married to have sex, but it would be part of a meaningful relationship to me.  If I just want friendship, we’ll play tennis or watch movies or catch a dinner.  If I want relief. . . I have a vibrator.  ;)

  • http://diaryofamessylady.wordpress.com/ Lauren

    Left my story on there for him. I was a little sad that my comment has to wait for moderation. What do you bet it doesn’t make the cut?

  • Anonymous

    This is a really interesting question, IMHO. As a Recovering Christian atheist, I, weirdly enough, have never had sex with anyone other than my husband. 

    When I was in HS, I was a very adamant Bible-believing Christian (“True Love Waits” ring and all!) and would have never even considered sex outside of marriage. 

    As a freshman in college, about 6 months before meeting the guy who would eventually become my husband, I was sexually assaulted by a man who I thought I was friends with. It destroyed any remaining shred of positive sexuality that Christianity HADN’T ALREADY eaten alive. My scenario is possibly the most polite and caring contribution Christianity gave to woman and sexuality (my best friend went to a private Christian college in Indiana…I could tell horror stories), and my relationship with would-be husband was nearly abandoned multiple times because of complications from said event.

    Thank FSM that I did not. I went with my instincts and discovered that we both had this wonderful, pleasure-seeking side of ourselves that religion never allowed us to have (and still wouldn’t, given that we weren’t married), and based on the trust and intimacy that we developed over time, we explored the hell out of it. 

    So, less out of choice and more out of coincidence, I am happily monogamous and more than fulfilled in my sex life. I chose to be abstinent because of religious reasons, but it never made me happy. I can’t say that choosing NOT to be abstinent would have made me happy – it’s not an either/or argument – but I will say that the culture of rabid monogamy/abstinence/purity heaped tons of guilt onto me  that I didn’t deserve or understand.

    When it comes time to raise my own children, I want them to understand their own sexuality and explore in their own way (so long as it is a healthy and honest way), and not feel as though it’s something that is so deviant, wrong, and dirty that it must be hidden away and that its participants need to be treated as pariahs.

    • Mike S.

      That is very courageous of you to share that part of your life so openly and thoroughly and how you overcame that much adversity. If more women can share their experiences, the negative ones and the positive ones that followed and how they reached that positive experience despite the negative experience then it will greatly help other women and people in general on a personal level and throughout society to overcome violence and abuse, and find their happiness…

    • Anonymous

      My story is very similar to yours.  thanks for sharing it.

      • Anonymous

        It is always comforting to know that we are not alone. I nearly cried when my friend at the Christian college told me stories of how women saved themselves for marriage and then feeling “raped” on their wedding night; I wished with all my heart that I could go out to those women and tell them how wrong their reasoning was, and how wonderful the relationship can be if you commit to a sexual relationship that is respectful, open, and inventive, with YOUR pleasure in mind.

        My heart hurts for all the women and men in the pews every Sunday who are discontent or apathetic about their sex life – sex is so great…it should never be something that anyone should pair with the word “apathetic”.

        • http://nathandst.blogspot.com NathanDST

          There are women who felt raped on their wedding night? I had never heard that one, and find that incredibly sad.

          • http://www.shadesthatmatter.blogspot.com asmallcontempt

            I do too. I think that, based on conversations that I had with the girl in question and some of her college friends, that it has a lot to with the perception of agency in a sexual situation; coming from a similar theological background, I can easily see how a woman would feel that sex happens “to” them – as if they are on the receiving end and not a participants. It’s an “act” you “wait for”, not unlike your first haircut or birthday party.

            From what I understand, these women described their wedding nights that way because of a lack of understanding of how sex works (practically speaking – I was floored at some of the bashful, elementary school thoughts on sex that were said at this college…I mean, really, medical terms should NOT make you blush), an emphasis on “submission”, and the idea that only your husband is responsible for giving you pleasure. The windfall is that people aren’t prepared for what sex will be like because there is fear entangled in the mystery of it all; if your husband (who is likely a virgin as well) isn’t good at communicating desires (all while fumbling around nekkid for, likely, the first time with the partner), one person is very likely to leave unsatisfied and distressed.

            They don’t all turn out this way. My friend was, over time, able to divorce herself from the harmful doctrines surrounding sex that she had been taught and ENJOY IT. After more than a year of marriage, she was finally able to say “no, no…more like THAT” in bed.

  • Amanda

    I can’t really tell – is he making a distinction between “casual” sex and pre-marital sex with someone with whom you have a more-than-casual relationship?  I’m all for the latter, but a little hesitant on the former.  The few “hook-ups” I’ve had in the past have left me feeling a little icky afterwards.  I don’t know if that’s residual guilt leftover from my Mormon upbringing or not, but I figure if it feels bad, don’t do it. 

    • Ben

      It’s the Mormon upbringing, but you’ll get over it eventually (mine was Baptist and also difficult to get over).

      • Anonymous

        There’s no reason to do something that doesn’t feel good to you whether it’s from post-religious guilt or just how you are.  If this guilt is from religion, the longer you are away from the madness the less you will feel the tug of it’s influence.  I was southern baptist for a.long.time.  Now I have no conscience qualms about enjoying sex in whatever way and with whomever I want.

        • Guest

          I’m actually buddhist so my religion permits me to do whatever I want.  But, I’ve been looking at studies on how pre-marital sex affects marriage, and statistically, it’s always bad.  I want a happy marriage more than anything else so maybe its best to wait until marriage.  

          • http://nathandst.blogspot.com NathanDST

            Again, what studies are you looking at?

    • Allison Wolf

      There’s no reason to do it if it feels bad to you. That’s part of what makes me so sad about most of the testimonials from Christian women on that site. There’s a lot od “I felt pressured into it, so I did it, and it really sucked” and “I was looking to fill a big emotional void with something physical. It didn’t work and then I felt worse off than before.” Well, of course these sorts of things were bad experiences!

      Frankly, I think he’s including almost any sex with someone you don’t at least hope to marry later in the “hook up” category.

    • Anonymous

      Really?  Crikey, I’ve no intention of getting married so every time my unwife and I have sex we must just be hooking up.  I’ll have to tell her.  She’ll be amused at the 19 year long one night stand we’ve been having.

  • Anastasia

    Why can’t one still be nice and enjoy sex?     What’s the point in waiting for marriage?  

    At this moment, I only know 2-5 men worth marrying, and I don’t know when I will be able to marry.  Also, I think that watching my parents fight  over most of their marriage changed the way I look at it.  I love my parents but I don’t want what they had.   There was always plenty of food, we had clothes, shoes and vacations, but my father can be an asshole.   

    • Guest

      I’m a guy, so I usually yell at my dad, if he’s being unfair to my mom.  My dad is also a very reasonable guy and loves us both very much.  My parents are very happily married.

  • Anonymous

    I mostly don’t hook up, because quite frankly the stress about STD’s and pregnancy isn’t worth it! 

    However, that being said, if I’m not in a monogamous relationship – which I prefer – I’ll have a one-night stand about once every year or two years.  Just because I want to feel like a sexual being and have sex and I enjoy sex.  That’s it.  I’m safe as can be.  If the guy is a sexist partner, then it doesn’t happen. 

    Unfortunately, Don did ask in a way that is sexist – probably unconsciously so since it’s so inculturated that most people don’t realize their thoughts/feelings are externally or internally sexist.   Everything about a woman hooking up was negative and degrading in his comment and while that happens alot in our culture with sex, the objectification or degradation of women with sex, it’s not inherent in either gender and doesn’t have to be so.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1245766187 Nikki Parker

    I don’t, just because I know I can’t handle it emotionally. If I encountered a guy that I was attracted to, and I felt I could handle having sex and never seeing him again, I might.

    A “friends with benefits” relationship, on the other hand, is cool! I’m in one now, and have been in them before. When you’re like me and can’t emotionally handle a sexual relationship unless you know the person fairly well, but don’t want to get into a committed relationship, a FWB relationship is perfect.

    • Parse

      Unfortunately, if you read Don’s posts, it looks like he’d call your ‘friends with benefits’ relationship hooking up.  “So, you meet a guy, you have sex after a couple interactions, and you walk away.” and “What are the reasons you have brief sexual encounters that don’t involve an ongoing relationship?”  Since you don’t fall into the black-and-white definition of an ‘ongoing relationship’, according to Don you must be hooking up.

  • randomatheist

    Here’s what I posted, it’s “awaiting moderation” so we’ll see if it ends up making the cut…

    As a woman I’m offended by the tone of the question. Sex is a biological desire of both men and women equally. When handled responsibly, like any other adult activity, there’s no problem whatsoever. Between consenting adults sex has nothing to do with power or control. The only thing attaching guilt or remorse to sex is religion, and it’s primarily skewed against women from it’s inception. Remove the religious overtones and sex isn’t any more or less of an issue than any other aspect of relationships. Decide how much of yourself you’re comfortable sharing. Guilt is for when you ACTUALLY do something wrong, not when someone else pretends you have.

  • Lina Baker

    I posted a comment. The Christian women are just saaaaad in talking about sex. Wow. I should have said something about feeling guilty as the Christian women I worked with in my 20s lamented having to have sex with their husbands, how much they didn’t enjoy it – and me LOVING sex! I was no Samantha on Sex in the City but, yeah, every now and again, hooking up was terrific! Anyway, let me know what you think of my response.

  • Parse

    In other news, I’m curious about why some people watch reality TV.  Do they do it for some kind of social power or to make themselves feel good? 
    You turn on the TV, you watch a couple of episodes of a show, and you walk away.  What did you gain from the experience and what, if anything, did you lose?
    Did it make you feel powerful?  Did it make you feel beautiful?

    I remember back to my first ‘real’ job, when I was a freshman in high school.  One day, I got to order supplies for the place; it involved flipping through catalogs, filling out a purchase order, faxing it in.  I thought it was the greatest, most important thing ever, being responsible and all.  I realize now that it wasn’t anything super-special or sacred, and though it was fun (seeing what else was in the catalogs) and important (lest the place shut down), I attached far too much importance to it.  I see that same sort of thinking in Don Miller’s post.  It’s an important and nontrivial activity, but it’s not the world-shattering event his faith makes it out to be.

    My final thought is that, like @TerranRich, I think Don sees sex as the end goal or prize of a relationship.  The idea that, for some people, sex is part of the relationship’s ‘journey’ blows his mind.

  • Parse

    In other news, I’m curious about why some people watch reality TV.  Do they do it for some kind of social power or to make themselves feel good? 
    You turn on the TV, you watch a couple of episodes of a show, and you walk away.  What did you gain from the experience and what, if anything, did you lose?
    Did it make you feel powerful?  Did it make you feel beautiful?

    I remember back to my first ‘real’ job, when I was a freshman in high school.  One day, I got to order supplies for the place; it involved flipping through catalogs, filling out a purchase order, faxing it in.  I thought it was the greatest, most important thing ever, being responsible and all.  I realize now that it wasn’t anything super-special or sacred, and though it was fun (seeing what else was in the catalogs) and important (lest the place shut down), I attached far too much importance to it.  I see that same sort of thinking in Don Miller’s post.  It’s an important and nontrivial activity, but it’s not the world-shattering event his faith makes it out to be.

    My final thought is that, like @TerranRich, I think Don sees sex as the end goal or prize of a relationship.  The idea that, for some people, sex is part of the relationship’s ‘journey’ blows his mind.

    • Anonymous

      this.

      i am so beyond people like Don it’s sort of hard for me to understand them. a friend of a friend recently tried to shame me with some catholic guilt/crap about sex; i rolled my eyes and said, ‘sorry, honey. that mythology doesn’t work on me, i’m an atheist’ and he was a bit nonplussed. i just move in a different world than people like this do. i suppose guilt and shame can be a kink, but they don’t work for me nor any of my lovers, all of whom are good and high quality in bed. i feel sorry for people who can’t or won’t enjoy sex, as our bodies evolved to enjoy it for the most important of all evolutionary reasons. 

      christian ladies: if he doesn’t get you off, leave him, or consider the fact you may be queer. here’s what he *really* doesn’t want you to know: women’s orgasms are ten times more powerful. men are in awe of that, when they see it. i’m not saying we’re “better” or anything like that, it’s just that the female orgasm is a really unique and powerful thing. there are men out there who hate and fear this fact; Don is one of them. walk away from guys like these, always. 

    • Anonymous

      this.

      i am so beyond people like Don it’s sort of hard for me to understand them. a friend of a friend recently tried to shame me with some catholic guilt/crap about sex; i rolled my eyes and said, ‘sorry, honey. that mythology doesn’t work on me, i’m an atheist’ and he was a bit nonplussed. i just move in a different world than people like this do. i suppose guilt and shame can be a kink, but they don’t work for me nor any of my lovers, all of whom are good and high quality in bed. i feel sorry for people who can’t or won’t enjoy sex, as our bodies evolved to enjoy it for the most important of all evolutionary reasons. 

      christian ladies: if he doesn’t get you off, leave him, or consider the fact you may be queer. here’s what he *really* doesn’t want you to know: women’s orgasms are ten times more powerful. men are in awe of that, when they see it. i’m not saying we’re “better” or anything like that, it’s just that the female orgasm is a really unique and powerful thing. there are men out there who hate and fear this fact; Don is one of them. walk away from guys like these, always. 

  • http://profiles.google.com/gemmaellen Gemma Mason

    I left an honest comment about my period of hooking up, where I learned a lot about sex and was doing what I wanted to do, mainly for the reason of “I want to have sex.”

    I wasn’t confrontational at all, so hopefully it will pass moderation, even though it’s a story about “this was a useful period of my life” rather than “this was a hopelessly depraved period of my life”.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=684125632 Aaron Harmon

    Remember, women can’t possibly enjoy sex as an activity, but only as a means to get something else (money, security, babies, complements).

  • Mike S.

    I think that Miller must have some serious personal issues with relationships and with women. Its not that subtle and frankly its scary. His commentary reminds me of dangerous men who feel slighted by women and want to put them in their place somehow…

    • Anonymous

      That’s kind of how I see this Miller character too, Mike. And he thoroughly creeps me out.

  • Parse

    I know, I know, I said I was done, but one last thing snagged my attention. 
    Don asks both men and women, “Why do you hook up?”
    He doesn’t ask guys why they “give up sex easily” or if “they view their sexuality as a commodity.”  Nor does he ask guys if they “use sex for some kind of social power or to make yourself feel good.”  He also doesn’t ask what guys gain or what “if anything” they lose.  Nor does he ask if sex makes guys feel powerful or beautiful. 
    All he asks of guys is, “What are the reasons you have brief sexual encounters that don’t involve an ongoing relationship?”
    Draw your own conclusions from this – I’m having difficulty expressing mine in a non-hostile way.

    • Anonymous

      My guess: Men like sex, so why don’t they get into a long-term relationship / get married and get all the sex they want instead of hunting for new partners every time? Women don’t like sex, so why are they having it at all when it’s not their marital duty?

      … maybe that doesn’t qualify as non-hostile. Sorry, I’m not up for the task.  :-|

      • Guest

        Men lose respect for women after having sex with them.  I have friends that treat the girls they have sex with like sluts.  But the girls keep coming back for more because they become attached from the bonding that happens with oxytocin.  Then, as a collective, other men don’t want to marry the girl because they’re attached to another guy and it makes them lose respect for the girl and not want to acquire her baggage by marrying them.  Girls who are caught up in this cycle don’t want to admit what’s happening because it’s kind of degrading.  That’s why girls need to abstain from sex in order to get to know the guy and  get him to respect her.  It’s delayed gratification, but according to many studies, it seems to be the only real solution.

        • Anonymous

          “Men lose respect for women after having sex with them.” [citation required]

        • http://nathandst.blogspot.com NathanDST

          “Men lose respect for women after having sex with them.” I never have. 

          “It’s delayed gratification, but according to many studies, it seems to be the only real solution.” — What studies are these?

        • Parse

          “I have friends that treat the girls they have sex with like sluts.”
          So you should be judging your friends, not all men.  Unless you’re also saying that you would also treat women you have sex with like sluts, in which case you should be judging yourself as well.

          • http://nathandst.blogspot.com NathanDST

            Exactly. Just because a woman has sex outside of marriage doesn’t make her a slut.

            (and is there really anything wrong with being a slut, that is, promiscuous? isn’t the problem the disrespect that women who are promiscuous receive, and not the behavior itself?)

    • Shouldbeworkin’

      You are correct, of course. He’s already framed the question by implying that a) a woman does not enjoy sex or cannot have sex for sex’s sake, and b) a woman gains nothing, and loses much, by having sex. 

      I’ve always had issues with the phrasing of “give up sex” or “give it up.” It implies that the woman loses something or that she has surrendered, and simply reinforces the idea that the woman is submissive.  

      Rather ridiculous really… 

      “I gave it up last night, and now I can’t find it!!”    ;-)

      • Laura

        Yes. Exactly. The phrase “give up sex” in this dude’s query to women is the key to his entire mindset. Women may or may not commodify sex, but HE certainly does. He implies sex is something women want to keep and will only give up under certain circumstances — to win power over their partner or to fulfill something lacking within themselves, i.e., a sense of their own worth/beauty.  He can’t wrap his head around the idea that women might just do it because they like it.

        But religious men take this all one step further: Because they can’t understand circumstances under which a woman would have sex that are not at their core transactional (power/sense of worth/etc., being exchanged for the act), they stray away from “why she would” to “why she SHOULD.” Or should not, actually. They apply rules to the transaction so that they can control it and ensure their own access to the commodity they seek. In other words, a man gives up his freedom to marriage so that a woman will give up sex. It’s a very silly arrangement when you look at it that way.

        What I can’t understand is why so many men think this in the first place, that women can’t/don’t enjoy it. Are they so ashamed of themselves that they think everyone else is, too? I don’t get it.

        • Parse

          If they think that both men and women can’t, don’t, or shouldn’t enjoy it, I’d buy your explanation.  But my cynical side tells me that they think this because of their firsthand experience – the women they’ve been with can’t/don’t enjoy it.  Of course, that says everything about the men, and not their partners.

          • Valhar2000

            Maybe it’s not just these men. Maybe it takes a particular mindset to be a conservative christian.

            • pleaseExplain

              Well, why is it that there are brothels with females and not males?  Why isn’t there male prostitution.  There is a greater value on a women’s sexuality than a man’s.  That’s why he implies that women are losing something by agreeing to sex.  If a women asks a man if he wants to have sex, he’d more than likely say yes. If a man randomly asks a women he doesn’t know very well the same question, she would definitely say no.  That’s why the values are placed differently.

              • http://nathandst.blogspot.com NathanDST

                There are lots of male prostitutes out there, but I’ve generally heard them called “escorts.” 

    • Sailor

      Check the two”his” ad “hers”  pictures he uses too!

    • Anonymous

      This made me so angry.  I don’t know if it can get through his thick skull what is wrong with framing the questions this way since the firestorm of his first posts seems to have had no effect on his framing.

  • Faerie Fey

    I responded but I wonder if my response will make it past moderation.  It wasn’t rude or anything just not what they’re wanting to hear, I’m sure.

  • T-Rex

    Misery loves company. This nit wit must be one of the most miserable people on the face of the Earth.

    • Anonymous

      Apparently he just got married, so now he thinks he is the world’s best expert on relationships and sex

      • http://gloomcookie613.tumblr.com GloomCookie613

        I almost pity his wife.

    • Anonymous

      Apparently he just got married, so now he thinks he is the world’s best expert on relationships and sex

  • Anonymous

    I left a comment on his site.  I admit it’s rather emotional but it was cathartic for me all the same.  If anyone is interested:

    As an ex-christian, I know it is likely my views will be seen with all the negative connotations the modern christian faith sees any attempt to seek pleasure in a worldly or fleshly way.  You want to know why I, as a woman, have sex?  For me it’s precisely because my sexuality is NOT a commodity, I am not the sum of my sexual partners or the status of a hymen.  My sexuality and genitals are not something to be purchased for 5 pieces of silver.  My body isn’t some archaic notion of purity, there’s no reason to “save it” for someone.  My body and the quality of the intimacy and sex I have are not diminished by experience, rather they are enhanced by it.  Having sex feels good physically and emotionally whether it is with a well known partner or someone very new.  It scratches an itch that is in us naturally.  Why do you eat brownies or cookies, take hot showers, sleep in a comfortable bed?  Are these not worldly pleasures?  Do they diminish your ability to enjoy these things in the future? 

    I do not believe sex is “bad” or “dirty” or a “commodity.”  It does not give me power, it allows me to connect with someone in a way I do not connect with everyone else in the world.  Sex is exciting and beautiful.  I do not share your beliefs anymore, I do not believe my consciousness will go on after this life.  For all I know this is my one life and I want to live it to the fullest.  I do not want to waste time denying myself connection with others.  Does this give you the image that I am a dirty slut?  Does it make you think I am having sex with anyone who looks my way?  Well, you may be surprised to find I am married and have happily been so for over 18 years but this is by our choices and it is my joy.  My marriage is not a job, a destiny, god’s secret plan, or something I am forced to weather because I am now too impure to move on.  This is my expression of free will as is my choice to engage in or abstain from sex with anyone I choose.

    To go down a darker path, I read your post about no one wanting some used up husk of a sexually active human being.  I was very disturbed by this entire idea that people should be valued and by the same token *de-valued* based on their sexual experiences.  You should really think how that feels to someone who was molested and raped prior to meeting that special fellow god saw fit to deliver them after their purity was taken away.  No amount of re-virginizing rituals and silver rings will make that okay to the victim.

    • ACN

      I’m glad you left it. And glad you felt like you could share it.

    • Anonymous

      That was beautiful. I hope he allows it, so the clearly conflicted Christian young women populating that thread can read that another path is possible. Thank you.

    • Anonymous

      I responded to some feedback left under my post on his site and after nearly 24 hours it’s supposedly still “awaiting moderation.”  Guess they didn’t like me pointing out that the modern day church’s definition of marriage (1 man + 1 woman + love + ceremony) was not the only definition put forth in the actual bible (polygamous, incestuous, product of rape, for strictly materialistic reasons.)  I also pointed out it is is disingenuous for the church to pretend that the contemporary magical ritual of monog/hetero marriage ceremony  somehow changes sex from the dirty, defiling power play Miller feels it to be and suddenly transforms it into a sacred, wholesome, healthy act of procreation.  I also pointed out Miller’s (and christianity’s) views of such a multifaceted issue as human sexuality to be immature and downright demeaning to “molecular machines as intricate and subtle as we.”* 

      I wonder where I went wrong?? /smirk

      *credit: Carl Sagan :)

  • Amanda

    Sex, to me, isn’t as easy as shaking hands. I can’t walk away and still feel okay about myself. I get emotionally attached. I had a friends with benefits thing, felt terrible, and now I’m strictly into monogamous relationships. Sex has to equal love in my book in order for me to feel happy.

    I was never religious, either. My parents are Agnostic. Go figure.

  • http://www.facebook.com/EricLeroyHolmes Eric Leroy Holmes

    Language and presentation spoil the product with inherent bias… ‘give up sex so easily’… I’d prefer something like: dessert is great but why go strait for it.. what are the advantages/disadvantages of delaying gratification.. 

  • Anonymous

    Ugh those poor women.  Maybe they’d enjoy sex if it weren’t treated like some chore that it’s their duty to provide to their husbands.  I feel bad for them and really want to hook them up with some of my friends who sell “toys” via at home parties.  But that would probably just be a whole other layer of guilt for him to lay on them.
     

  • Anonymous

    I made in about 2-3 minutes before it became outright preaching in that video. The “lawlz” ran out after that.  

    Religion is such a guilt trip.   The Christian God deserves an award as an epic troll seeing cooked the books so we all ‘sin’ and then said, “DON’T SIN”.

  • Anonymous

    After reading through the thread for women I have a new appreciation of the emotional damage that Christianity causes many women (and some men, though far fewer if you judge by the two threads).

    There’s a whole horrible litany of emotional hang-ups, unneccesary guilt and self-esteem issues. Since sex (outside marriage) is held as being totally invalid and not something a “good girl” does, it seems to become warped. So girls end up “hooking up” because they have daddy issues, because they feel ugly, because they think that’s the only way they’ll be loved or fit in, because they were abused or assaulted and clearly didn’t get proper therapy. It’s an unending, unremitting list of The Wrong Reasons To Have Sex.

    And the psychological bullshit doesn’t end there. Since they are convinced that they must remain “pure” until marriage, when they do actually have sex, instead of the fun, fufilling, night, they end up feeling “empty”, “dirty”, “like a failure”, “lonely”.  Almost the mosting galling thing is how women who converted later in life actually get to feel retroactively terrible about the sex they had when they knew it was just a normal impulse, or even convince themselves that instead of having fun they were really just “looking for affirmation”.

    That thread has been an education, a chilling one. Those poor women, brainwashed so that healthy sex is impossible for them. They’ve been robbed and they don’t even know it.

    • Anonymous

      It’s clearly them who are “damaged goods”. Reading too much of that nonsense is simply creepy

    • Anonymous

      Its a self fulfilling prophecy. They are told they will feel these things if they have sex and so they do.  The guy asking the questions is just going to take that testimony as proof that what the bible teaches is true – hook ups are bad, women shouldn’t have sex till marriage.  The complete wrong lesson to be taking from all of this.  That’s the horror of the sexual guilt mindfuck.  Believe me it took years to get out of it.

  • TalkingSnake

    Hemant – why are you encouraging people to spend time posting a response on this guy’s site if he has already shown that he will delete posts that he doesn’t like?

  • Anonymous

    I don’t hook up because porn is more efficient. I can stay home, don’t have to interact with people I don’t know while making awkward conversation, and it’s free!

  • http://annainca.blogspot.com/ Anna

    Color me unsurprised that Miller refers to women as “girls” thoughout his post. Even when he uses “ladies” as part of his title, it strikes me as ridiculously antiquated.

  • http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com miller

    I don’t hook up with people because I don’t care for the experience.  That’s all there is to it.

  • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ Anonymous

    Uh… can someone explain to me why sharing pleasure with another consenting adult is such a Terrible Thing?

  • http://gloomcookie613.tumblr.com GloomCookie613

    I know this is awfully crass, but… STOP PUTTING THE P*SSY ON A PEDESTAL!

    Our society puts virginity and sex on a pedestal.

    That’s a big part of the problem, in my opinion.  If more people just looked at sex as the perfectly normal, natural, and biological act it is, there wouldn’t be so much guilt and stupidity around the idea of a hook-up.

    I neither look down on or up to those who save it or those who choose to hook-up.  That’s one of those personal choices that will vary wildly from woman to woman, usually.  We all have our hangups and standards.  Hook-ups aren’t for everyone and waiting until marriage to kick the tires wasn’t right for me.  We live in a wonderful world where people are vastly different, so you really can’t make any sort of blanket statements, in my opinion.

    That said, to me, virginity is overrated.  I never had the hangups about casual sex and didn’t have any sort of virginity obsession while I was growing up.  Funnily enough, of my circle of friends in high school I was a virgin the longest and the only non-religious.  Not because it was some sort of mystical, magical thing, but because I just wasn’t interested in going all the way with any of the guys I was with.  Why risk STDs or pregnancy and screw my life up?  There’s plenty of fun to be had without having sex!  I lost my virginity when I was 18 to a guy that I trusted and he respected me.  Those are the only prerequisites I have.  Some girls want physical attributes being *just so*, but I’m happy with respect and trust.  Nothing makes a woman feel sexier than appreciation of who she is and respect.

    In college, I went through a bit of a wild phase. (I know, so cliche!)  I slept with a handful of different guys I was acquainted with.  Never slept with someone whose name I didn’t know or anything like that; too dangerous in too many ways for my liking.   Protection and contraception were a MUST.

    Why did I do it?  It was new and exciting and most of all: It was FUN!

    It led to some funny stories, learning experiences, and even some very good friendships.  I learned a LOT during that time; about myself and others.  One of the more amusing stories was about a one-night stand with an exchange student from Turkey.  Super sweet guy, really laid back, but he was also a total hypocrite.  You can learn a lot about someone when you hit the sheets with them and I’m not just talking about discovering that mole on their backside.  I’m not religious, but old habits die hard; I tend to ‘praise the lord’ a lot in bed even though I don’t believe.  I figured if he was fine with pre-marital/casual sex, a couple of “Oh GOD!”s of approval wouldn’t be a big deal.  I was WRONG.  After all was said an done, while searching for my bra, he says, “If we do this again, don’t blaspheme when we are making love.”  I was flabbergasted!  He had no problem having sex, but my saying “oh god” went too far?  Now you see why it was just a one-time hook-up.  Do I regret it?  Not at all.  I learned a lot from the experience.

    Then we have the other end of the spectrum.  I got into a relationship with a guy.  He was a “former” Catholic, a virgin, insisted he was ready, then made my life a living hell with HIS guilt and shame.  I’d rather be scolded by a one-night stand and laugh about it later than deal with people putting virginity on some sort of pedestal and then blame their partner because the sex didn’t make the relationship all sunshine and unicorn farts.  Do I regret wasting months of my life on *that* guy?  Oh, you bet your booty, I do!  That relationship was more toxic than any hook-up and all because virginity and sex was put on a pedestal by one of the parties involved.

    I’m now married to the guy I actually shared my first kiss with when we were kids.  He and I got together after the disaster of a relationship I had with the recovering Catholic virgin.  We’ve been going strong together for 9 years and married for 3. We don’t put sex on any sort of a pedestal.  If we want to, we do, if we don’t, we don’t.  Sex should never be an end goal for marriage; a committed and loving partnership should be the goal of ALL marriages. 

    Sex is just the fun part, if you’re doing it right!

    So, beyond it being fun, the reason I hooked up in the past was because it never felt like some sort of dirty little thing to me.  It was one way to experience life.  It’s not everyone’s cuppa and doesn’t work for everyone, but for me, it was an educational and horizon expanding time.  I didn’t do it because I was on some sort of power-trip or because I had no self-confidence.  I don’t need a man to make me feel powerful or beautiful: I was born that way already.  (To be honest, if you need a man to make you feel those things, you need to step back from dating/sex and work on yourself before you even entertain the idea of relationships or hookups.) 

    And the best part?  I’m not ashamed and don’t really care what shame others want me to feel.  Why?  Because I’m a strong and beautiful woman who controls her own life and actions.
     ——————————–
    I posted this same comment (minus the first line) to Miller’s site.  Let’s see if it flies.

    • http://nathandst.blogspot.com NathanDST

      I don’t disagree with anything in this, with the possible exception that I actually think it’s risky NOT to sleep with someone before marriage. How else are you going to know that you’re actually compatible in bed? 

      • http://gloomcookie613.tumblr.com GloomCookie613

        I absolutely agree.  I never would have gotten married without kicking the tires and taking a test drive (or five!), I just don’t look down on those who choose not to.  That’s her business, not mine.  Do I think she’s probably making a mistake by not doing so?  Absolutely.  Is that my problem?  Nope.

        • http://nathandst.blogspot.com NathanDST

          True, it’s not really a moral issue, and it is his or her business — and the business of whomever they’re with, I guess.

      • Anonymous

        I am both amused and flabbergasted when Christians try to tell people that sexual compatibility isn’t that important in marriage.

        • http://nathandst.blogspot.com NathanDST

          The part that bugs me is when someone says “Well, if I’ve never done it before, I won’t know the difference,” or anything similar.

          You won’t know what other people do, sure, but you will still know if you like what your partner is doing!  If your partner starts to randomly bite and claw as they get into it and start to let go, you’ll know if you like that, or not. If you ask them to stop, they’ll find out quick if they can still enjoy themselves as much without that. 

          You can apply that to just about anything you might do in bed, and realize that some people really wouldn’t be able to enjoy themselves as much if they have to avoid certain things that are seemingly instinctual, or if they’re being asked to do something that really isn’t doing anything for them, and might even be a turn off.

          Love can’t fix basic incompatibility. It can make you more willing to try something new and different, but it can’t make you enjoy it.

    • Anonymous

      Good for you.

    • Valhar2000

      Because I’m a strong and beautiful woman who controls her own life and actions.

      And to top it all off, you are also modest!

      Just kidding; great comment.

  • Dan W

    Well I’m still a virgin, so I guess there’s no point in me commenting on Don Miller’s thread. Even so, I will say that when I do have sex, it’ll be because I see nothing wrong with sex between consenting adults. The lack of silly, pointless rules about sex, what kind of foods you eat and when, and so forth is one of the great things about being an atheist.

  • Guest

    Isn’t virginity far more of a commodity to believers of all stripes than non-believers? Given that in many religions/cultures getting married is much harder if you don’t possess that precious commodity?

  • David W

    I’ve added the following comment to his post, I wonder if it will be approved by the moderator?

    Assuming by “hook up” you mean “have sex with casual partners”?

    I’m speaking as a gay man: for years we have had our relationships denied, which puts a lot of pressure on relationships. The hookup culture among gay men is largely a function of a society which has repeatedly told gay men (and women) that their relationships have no value and can only ever be short-term, which is of course a self-fulfilling prophecy. Want gay men to be less “promiscuous”? Stop telling them they’re worthless and give them the opportunity to commit to their partner!

    In addition, and I suspect this is as true for straight people as well, there’s the fun of trying out new positions or fetishes with people: experimentation is fun! Evidence in the UK of an emerging trend for middle-class gay guys to seek out sex with “chavs” – working class guys who tend to wear tracksuits, have short hair and are tattooed. Perhaps you want to try out something a bit freaky, a relationship is not a good time to bring up, say, your desire to suck someone’s toes.

    There’s also the fun of having sex with people you either wouldn’t want a relationship or couldn’t have a relationship with (because, for example, they’re way out of your league).

    There’s also the advantage of being able to get some carnal exercise whilst visiting another area, for example whilst on holiday.

    But ultimately, it’s because we realise that sexual pleasure, including masturbation, doesn’t have to take place within a long-term relationship, that done safely (no wellies, no wading!!!) and with consent there are no consequences to enjoying sex with someone you don’t intend to see again. Indeed, the most intense sex I’ve had was a one-night stand, which differs from most pleasurable or most loving.

    I’ve been with my current boyfriend for 10 years now. Worst. Hookup. Ever ;-)

  • David W

    I’ve added the following comment to his post, I wonder if it will be approved by the moderator?

    Assuming by “hook up” you mean “have sex with casual partners”?

    I’m speaking as a gay man: for years we have had our relationships denied, which puts a lot of pressure on relationships. The hookup culture among gay men is largely a function of a society which has repeatedly told gay men (and women) that their relationships have no value and can only ever be short-term, which is of course a self-fulfilling prophecy. Want gay men to be less “promiscuous”? Stop telling them they’re worthless and give them the opportunity to commit to their partner!

    In addition, and I suspect this is as true for straight people as well, there’s the fun of trying out new positions or fetishes with people: experimentation is fun! Evidence in the UK of an emerging trend for middle-class gay guys to seek out sex with “chavs” – working class guys who tend to wear tracksuits, have short hair and are tattooed. Perhaps you want to try out something a bit freaky, a relationship is not a good time to bring up, say, your desire to suck someone’s toes.

    There’s also the fun of having sex with people you either wouldn’t want a relationship or couldn’t have a relationship with (because, for example, they’re way out of your league).

    There’s also the advantage of being able to get some carnal exercise whilst visiting another area, for example whilst on holiday.

    But ultimately, it’s because we realise that sexual pleasure, including masturbation, doesn’t have to take place within a long-term relationship, that done safely (no wellies, no wading!!!) and with consent there are no consequences to enjoying sex with someone you don’t intend to see again. Indeed, the most intense sex I’ve had was a one-night stand, which differs from most pleasurable or most loving.

    I’ve been with my current boyfriend for 10 years now. Worst. Hookup. Ever ;-)

    • Anonymous

      Nobody should have sex with chavs.  Not even other chavs.

      • David W

        Lol! I don’t actually like the word “chav”, I think it carries far too much weight and is a lazy stereotype.

        Don’t forget that “other” has always been sexually alluring: see mixed race porn for examples ;-)

        • Anonymous

          “see mixed race porn for examples”.  It’s not my favourite but I’m pretty easy going when it comes to porn. ;)

    • Anonymous

      i don’t really agree with some of what you say, David. some of us queers choose to be nonmonogamous because we celebrate and enjoy that element of The Life. it’s a part of our culture and always has been, and there’s nothing shameful about that. i was so glad to walk away from betty crocker heteronormalism, once and for all. i have multiple partners because i choose to, openly and happily, and not because “society” tells me my queer relationships are “worthless.” i know they are not. 

      • Guest

        I guess if you’re queer, the rules are different because the culture is different.  I guess if you don’t want to be monogamous, you don’t have to.

        • Anonymous

          “I guess if you don’t want to be monogamous, you don’t have to.” – Finally some sense.  This, of course, has nothing to do with being straight or gay.

  • Anonymous

    Let me think, why on earth would women want to have sex.  Hmmm.  Because they enjoy sex, maybe.  Honestly what an ill conceived question.  Just get all your biases out there for the world to see, Don Miller.  You clearly don’t expect women to enjoy sex and you clearly don’t expect women to have the confidence to want to have sex, even to actively seek it.

    What does that say about Don Miller? 

    • Guest

      I don’t understand how anyone cannot enjoy sex.  It is the most pleasurable experience there is.  I’m sure even Don Miller enjoys sex.  But, to have sex within the confines of marriage is the most responsible thing to do.  And because there is love in a marriage, the sex is better.  Also, by losing your virginity within a marriage, you form a bond that is special between the couple.  I hope to get married soon and live happily ever after.  I think everyone respects conservative values even if they don’t admit it.  

      • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ Anonymous

        You’re right — sex is sacred. After all, every act of love and pleasure honors the Goddess…

      • Anonymous

        “But, to have sex within the confines of marriage is the most responsible thing to do. ” [citation required]
        “And because there is love in a marriage, the sex is better. ” – How would you know?

        “Also, by losing your virginity within a marriage, you form a bond that is special between the couple” – Only if you raise the hymen up to some kind of magical status.

        “I hope to get married soon and live happily ever after.” – That’s a problem right there.  Marriage isn’t some kind of blissful ending.  It is simply a stage in a relationship.  If you think that marriage = happily ever after then you aren’t going to keep working at your relationship and it will likely fail.”I think everyone respects conservative values even if they don’t admit it.” – I don’t.

      • http://nathandst.blogspot.com NathanDST

        “I don’t understand how anyone cannot enjoy sex.  It is the most pleasurable experience there is.” I’ve had bad sex. Sometimes, you just aren’t into it. Some people seem like they aren’t into it at all, for various reasons (maybe physical, maybe psychological). Some of the things you’ve said make me think you’re a virgin. Fine. Then take it from those who’ve been there: sex isn’t always the most pleasurable experience.

        “But, to have sex within the confines of marriage is the most responsible thing to do.” In what sense? Sexual compatibility is important in a marriage, so how is it responsible to enter a marriage without some idea of your compatibility?

        “And because there is love in a marriage, the sex is better. ” No, not really. I’ve had sex with people I didn’t love, and with people I do/did love. I can’t honestly say that one is better than the other, as I’ve had great sex in both instances.

        ” Also, by losing your virginity within a marriage, you form a bond that is special between the couple.” By that logic, I should have a special bond with the woman I lost my virginity to, but I don’t. She’s actually the one ex that I don’t care to continue associating with. I do, however, have a special bond with my wife, despite not being a virgin when I met her.

        “I hope to get married soon and live happily ever after.” What hoverFrog said. Marriage (and any relationship) is an ongoing process, and there is no “happily ever after.” Please stop listening to Disney.

        ” I think everyone respects conservative values even if they don’t admit it.” No, I really don’t.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Shadist Eric Terrell

    Humm, should I go over an answer his question. . .

    No, I don’t think it’s worth my time really as there’s NO way he would let any answer I give in.

    I’m a 34 year old, poly, kinky, agnostic who was raised agnostic.

    Is sex best when it’s with someone you love, often it is yes. However it’s not always the case. I’ve had a number of people who I was in long term relationships with who were really not massively sexually compatible with me.

    On the other hand I have had casual relationships (both in and out of the kinkpoly community) where there were some basic issues which prevented a relationship but with whom the sex was really outstanding.

    I’m just fortunate to have found groups of people to whom sex isn’t the issue it is for others. Where acting on your desires with consenting adults is just that, people enjoying themselves.

    I doubt he would want to hear any of that.

    Not enough Jebus.

  • Anonymous

    It boils down to this. Sex is a common denominator for most everyone or if not sex itself at least sexual thoughts. Christianity makes you feel guilty about this common biological act or mental attraction, thus people think they need Christianity’s forgiveness for doing it.

    People need to realize what they do with their bodies is their own business, and that their sexual permissions do not come from a magic sky daddy. As an added bonus, without the guilt complex you’ll be having better sex.

  • Anonymous

    I’ve finally realized why this question bugs me so much.  Contrary to romantic  and xtian belief, my metaphoric heart and my vagina are not necessarily connected.  No mystical significance was connected to my hymen.  I do not give up a part of my “soul” when I get naked with another human.    Sure, sex in a committed, loving relationship can be powerful and wonderful and all that jazz.  As a married gal, I’m kinda fond of it.  But sex in an of itself  as a physical act can also be pretty danged good, too.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t hook-up, my wife frowns on it.

  • Caitlin

    I’m an aromantic asexual virgin so I can’t add anything to Don Miller’s post, but I’m majorly annoyed by his sexism and feel bad for all the Christian women who are saddled with this baggage. A lot of stuff about sex confuses the hell out of me, but the guilt and shame people seem to have about it is certainly top of my list. This negative crap totally seems like an evangelical fundie thing. I was raised Catholic (atheist since I was 11) and even though the Catholic church has a bad (and often deserved) rep for sexual repression, I never remember being taught *anything* like what these evangelical women were. And the worst part is that they’re so brainwashed they actually believe it!!

  • http://nathandst.blogspot.com NathanDST

    I left the following comment there for him. It’s awaiting moderation, but he’s allowed an awful lot of comments from us through (maybe all? can’t tell), so I think it will go through.

    Yes, depending on how you’re defining “hooking up,” I have hooked up. You mentioned over on the ladies comments when responding to someone that you were really wondering whether a hook up could be part of a love story, and a positive part at that.A few years back I was in a Friends with Benefits relationship that was a great deal of fun. That FWB introduced me to my future wife. My future wife knew about the benefits before she started dating me, and was fine with it. We’re both still friends with the FWB that introduced us. I don’t regret that relationship in any way, and in fact am glad it happened. Not only did I become a better lover (a skill I could take to my wife), but it’s because of it that I met my wife.

    Sex can be a means of showing intimacy, or enhancing intimacy, but it doesn’t have to be that, nor could I see it being that way all the time. It certainly isn’t always about “making love” when I have sex with my wife. In truth, the times I feel most connected to my wife, and the times I’m most reminded why I married her, are when we’re sitting down at a dinner, having a wonderful conversation. It’s better than even the most mind blowing, intimate, and loving sex.

    I suppose I should also mention that I slept with my wife before marriage, and would never have considered marrying her if I hadn’t. Sexual compatibility is very important if you’re going to commit to something like marriage, and you can only find out if you’re sexually compatible by trying. I would have been appalled if my wife had said her virginity was such a special gift she wanted to save it for the wedding night, because she loved and respected me so much even before she met me. How could she know that the sex would be good for her with me on the wedding night, and thereafter, if she didn’t test me? I’m not seeing any respect for me, or herself, in that scenario.

    From what I can tell from reading these comments, both for the guys and the ladies, a lot of the guilt and regret and shame seems to happen most when they’ve been told that premarital sex is wrong, or dirty, or that it should always be this magical thing and you’re doing it wrong if it’s not. It’s that attitude which seems to be causing the pain, not the hook ups themselves. I’m also seeing a lot of people in these comments going into sex with beliefs that it will somehow fulfill some deep emotional need, or provide something beyond just fun and pleasure. Put it on a pedestal, and it’s no wonder so many are disappointed and filled with regret.

    (Full disclosure, I’m an atheist, so perhaps you won’t consider my answer as valid as a Christian man’s. You would be wrong.)

    • http://nathandst.blogspot.com NathanDST

      Yes, GloomCookie, I was thinking of you when I mentioned sex on a pedestal. :)


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