… can people avoid making sexual remarks about her?
Oh, r/atheism, thank you for making sure we stay marginalized.
To be absolutely fair, committing the crime of being visibly female on the internet will get you these kinds of reactions on almost any male dominated community on the internet. There will always be a small percentage of flaming sexist assholes and trolls (though the fact she’s fucking 15 makes this case particularly nauseating), and a (I suspect) similar number of giggling immature schoolboys (no matter their age). There will also be a larger number of men who, while they would not say these things themselves, will berate any woman who complains about such treatment, telling them to stop being “hysterical”, “whining”, a “baby”, “over-sensitive” etc. There, of course, are a fair number of men (I like to think larger) who will call bullshit, demand the harrasement stop, and generally stand up for decency. All of these types are outnumbered by those who are entirely silent on the matter.
So I’m going to have dinner now. I wonder how long this will take to denegerate into an Elevatorgate shitfest of diversion? Do I dare hope it doesn’t? Maybe there’s something to the Solstice spirit?
This kind of shit happens to everyone.
It’s wrong, but it’s not specific to girls, it’s an internet problem generally.
A few are now insulting Rebecca Watson and claiming she’s throwing a ‘pissy fit’, defending the fact that they view sex and rape jokes as the same because it doesn’t matter to them, and being jerks in general. Others are agreeing, apologizing, or having thoughtful discussions if they disagree. It’s amazing how people can have such different views of the same thing. I agreed wholeheartedly with Rebecca and thought it reasonable. Male privilege from a few people? Cultural conditioning? No idea, but it’s surprising from a group I used to like (r/atheism, where boys can take pictures of themselved but girls cannot.).
Step 1 – Post something on the internet.
Reddit is one of the many cesspools of the internet. Read it if you want to lose a few IQ points.
Is it just me, or does Skepchick just try and draw up controversy around her? r/atheism is a massive community, of over 350,000 members. The offensive comments had around 1600 upvotes. I may not be a math major, but that’s .4% of the community who cared enough to vote that stuff up. Don’t we atheists always get annoyed when people are using stereotypes against an entire community eg “All atheists are evil?”
Skepchick is doing the same thing, but instead of from religious people, it’s coming from someone who caused another controversy that revolved around herself earlier this year. I’m sorry, but anything she says has no weight to me anymore; she lost her legitimacy when she started attacking reddit as a whole, acting like all of us are sick misogynistic perverts, which is simply unfair and untrue. She just pissed off the largest known gathering of atheists in the world, and for what, extra views for her blog? Skepchick and PZ have both lost another reader today, for their lack of research and understanding.
She’s gone back on r/atheism & with a lot more maturity than she herself recieved seems to have been genuinely apologised to & made to feel welcome, take a look, i think there was more to it than just Atheists making comments as r/atheism is on the front page & so now gets a great many trolls. This is not to excuse the members of our own community who were improper &/or stupid etc’ but just to point out that like so many things it’s not black & white. Also the analogy to elevatorgate doesn’t work because this actually was important!
Read 4chan if you want to lose a few dozen.
I also recommend YouTube
I agree that posting an innocuous picture should not subject her to overt sexual comments, but I get really annoyed with all the people grimacing in all their politically correct horror over her age. So what, we’re supposed to pretend she’s not attractive until she’s 18? I would think the freethinking community of all people would see the stupidity in an arbitrary date dividing childhood and adulthood. All the men on here acting like they wouldn’t look twice at a girl who is 17 years, 364 days old are just trying to improve their cred with the feminists. I know I’m not making any friends with this comment, but eh; the feminists already hate me because I had the misfortune of being born with a penis and the men trying to impress them with their carefully acted outrage aren’t going to change. I just think it’s stupid to be talking about issues like sexism when everyone still subscribes to such an archaic, outdated view of sex.
I love how everyone excuses this with the boys-will-be-boys argument, the what-else-do-you-expect-that’s-how-some-men-act justification. It’s nothing to be excused nor tolerated. It’s a pervasive problem. Those of you who think it’s normal and should be accepted should go ahead and join in the hate speech, because you are just as bad as the people making all these aggressively sexual, entirely inappropriate comments.
Your right about ONE thing, your not making any friends.
Huh. So, society’s attitude towards sex is “outdated and archaic” but claiming that feminists hate you because you’re a dude is somehow…not?
It’s not just you, Holeydood3. Rebecca Watson deliberately chose her cute blog title as the generalization, “Reddit Makes Me Hate Atheists”, to attract attention. Actually, there’s no evidence for correlation between misogyny and atheism.
We need to have the courage to criticize this type of behavior as it happens, not after it happens.
Reddit is a huge community full of all kinds of people, and painting the whole thing as a “cesspool” is awfully prejudicial and not something that someone logical or reasonable would do. Note: I’m not defending the terrible comments that were made. They’re despicable and the people responsible should be held accountable. But not everyone there is like that.
How many 15-year-old boys get violent rape threats from mutiple grown women when they post about receiving a Sagan book for Christmas?
It may not be specific to girls, but it’s hard to argue that females don’t face more online discrimination based soley on their gender.
That’s not really all that good of a metric. Imagine an election in a state of a million people, but only 10,000 people cast a vote. A proposition on the ballot will pass if 6,000 people vote for it, even though that’s only .6% of the community.
Instead, I’d suggest comparing the upvotes on the offensive comments to other popular comments. If there are regular comments getting 10,000 upvotes, then you’re right to be dismissive of the sexists as a tiny fraction of the population. How many upvotes do popular comments normally get?
Obviously people need to control what shit they say about strangers regardless of the age of the subject in question.
But on a completely other subject- why do people feel the need to post pictures of themselves? I am a child of the FB/Myspace generation- I was a freshman in college when Facebook launched, and yet I have never once felt the need to just post a picture of my face for any reason- if I want to show a new book I got, I’ll take a picture of the damn book by itself. Made some awesome cookies I want to share? Take a picture of the cookies. Don’t need to show myself adorably eating the cookies.
I guess I just don’t get it, I guess. I does kind of freak me out that teens don’t really understand the implications of posting pictures of themselves around the internet.
If the free-thinking community wants to survive, it needs to be clever enough to know when it should play dumb.
My reaction is best summed up by Ophelia Benson:
If we don’t know about [sexism in the skeptical community], we can’t deal with it. I’m not very optimistic that we can deal with it even if we do know about it, but I’m sure we can’t if it’s kept away from the fresh air and sunlight.
Obi Wan Kenobi best described the internet a couple of decades before the thing became popular. “A wretched hive of scum and villainy.”
“The internet, where boys can take pictures of themselves but girls cannot.”
the feminists already hate me because I had the misfortune of being born with a penis
I’m a feminist and I don’t hate you ~but I think your remark above is nothing but broad-brush petulance; and it has nothing to do with the organ between your legs, just the chip on your shoulder.
Do you really think all 350,000+ members read Lunam’s post? If not, then your math is probably off.
If there’s even 1 upvote on a response about lubricating a 15-year-old with her own blood while raping her, it’s too many. We should be making every effort to call this behavior out, no matter who is responsible for it. Who cares who gets “pissed off?” It’s the right thing to do. Rebecca & PZ clearly aren’t calling all atheists evil, and you’re being disingenuous in suggesting so.
Prove her wrong. Show decency and acceptance on r/atheism, and call out bad behavior when you see it instead of excusing it and blaming the people who bring it to light. Make it comfortable for a 15-year-old girl to post about her Sagan book in an atheist forum. Because it should be.
This is JUST the reason I stopped checking in a PZ Myers idiotic little blahg.
Oh for chrissakes, I am so sick of this BS that is so anti-male that it makes me throw up in my mouth a little.
Yes, the comments are disgusting and crass, but instead of looking at that, every broad with a hatchet wound starts searching for a deeper underlying condition.
I am a man and have NOTHING to be ashamed about. I enjoy having a penis, and doing male things. I will not now, nor in the future, apologize for being male.
What has happened is the pendulum has swung too far to the opposite side where almost every male in an American sit-com is portrayed as a man-boy boob, and the woman is the long suffering superhero. BS.
What seems is that American women, and to some extent Canadian now, do not want equal rights, they want female rights, male rights and more. Then, they want to strip males of their rights, and turn them into sniveling little peons. Sorry dumplins’ but this is not right nor just.
Heidi wins the thread.
It’s not that this kind of attention is exclusive to atheist or even among the majority the problem is that we should be aware of it and speak out when it happens. Don’t feel slighted so quickly when people bring up these issues it’s not about attacking the attackers its about making it okay to defend the victim. Atheist are thinking people, I expect more from them then rape jokes and you should too.
Why doesn’t anyone say anything about her preliminary comment where she stated “bracin’ mah anus”, quite specifically introducing the concept of being anally penetrated? Yes, it looks a lot like she started the theme of the comment thread.
Men whining about persecution by feminists, the religious whining about persecution by the secular anyone else see the link?
Not to minimize the creepiness of anyone sending a 15 year old messages of this sort, but what seems to have set this thing off… wasn’t the picture… but rather the girls decision to post a follow up comment referring to her ‘anus’. Given the internet’s tendency to descend to the lowest common denominator. I’d say this is par for the course. Not her fault, she was just being a teenager, but it doesn’t seem to be ‘just the picture’ in this situation.
Nah. It happens all the time regardless of comments like that
every broad with a hatchet wound
Uhm, care to explain/clarify that remark?
She did it as a cutesy phrase for “bracing myself” in response to another user. It was not sexual.
But hey, she referenced a part of her body, right? I mean, she showed a picture of herself and mentioned her body, so the little hussy might as well expect comments suggesting she be raped.
I’m sure that if a 15 year old boy used the same phrase he too would get a hilarious comment about having the blood from his violent rape used to lubricate his anus.
No one is asking you apologize for being male. An apology for being a douchebag would be quite sufficient.
The minute anyone starts crying ‘reverse-sexism’, is the minute you lose any sense of credibility. Check your privilege.
For that you have to go to r/Catholicism
*summarizing EJC’s post*
‘boohoo, boohoo, we poor men, it’s such a DRAG and soooo constraining to be asked to give thought/consideration to how our actions might make other people feel’
*(note: just to clarify, the above isn’t any kind of blanket statement about all men, my remark is purely in response to EJC’s post alone)
Yes, it is said deliberately to call attention to the hypersensitivity the USA has whipped itself into. Words. These are words. Yet, there are many words we treat as though to utter them is to invoke He Who Shall Not Be Named himself. Get the fuck over it. Nigger is an awful word, but we have whipped ourselves up the point where schools are either removing the true American novel Huck Finn, or changing the text so it does not read Nigger Jim. And to speak of a woman in any other terms than woman/women. or even womyn is tantamount to word rape. Get over it. Yet, these same people who get in arms about such words are also the ones who turn a blind eye to derogatory words about men. Dogs, beasts, dicks, et al seem to be perfectly fine, but heaven forbid we say chick/broad/dame or other.
Hypocrisy pure and simple, and frankly it just makes the entire country weak and simple.
Oh Avery, you are an idiot arguing from a weak stance.
Yes, of course. How very cliche and trite.
I could have out that tidbit into a sealed envelope, had it dated and notarized BEFORE I posted my original remarks and I could have played Carnac and nailed it perfectly.
It is a perfectly flawed distraction and not an argument.
Because you’re showing, not only your new acquisition, but also your reaction to it – your facial expression, your body language, etc. For example, if I had received Comfort’s ‘Scientific Facts in the Bible’ (as JankstarrK did), you’d see me laughing my head off at it; you can tell that JankstarrK isn’t.
I’d say that the difference between taking a picture of a book versus homemade cookies is what the photographer is trying to show. The first is showing the reaction to a gift, the second is showing the fruits of your labor. (Though I’d wager if you mailed some of those cookies to your significant other, you’d appreciate seeing a picture of them adorably eating the cookies.)
Regardless, this post is misrepresenting the facts… in this case. And this is why its a shitstorm, because no one cares about the facts anymore, its about making a point.
What stance would that be, exactly? Obviously, as a women, I need a man to educate me about my own oppression.
No-just because that’s what you use to think, instead of a brain.
Actually boys threaten to abuse each other’s anuses on a quite regular basis…. on the internet.
I think you’re getting a little worked up about this. I know that some women do in fact make a big deal about it and others that claim to be feminists (but are not) think men are scum. This sort of attitude (*coughelevatorguyincidentcough*) is really annoying, but this particular issue is not about the fact that men do or don’t have equal rights, but that they are making sexual comments, particularly violent rape comments, to this girl.
I can understand partly where you’re coming from. Though men as a whole are far more privileged than females in most countries, I do see that there are many times when people get too worked up. And, as a female, I find I have to stick up for men quite a lot, possibly more than women.
The problem for me in terms of the words you mentioned, is that you can easily use those ‘male’ words (dogs, beasts, dicks) for females, but chick, broad, and dame are only used for females. — Although, I’m not sure why you mention ‘dame’; I don’t see how that is offensive, as ‘dame’ is used for women that have been knighted.
Also, the Huck Finn thing is ridiculous, I agree, but I don’t think it relates to this situation. I would assume most people here understand why getting rid of it is stupid, because Mark Twain had a specific reason for using the word ‘nigger’, but he didn’t himself mean to be offensive. The situation on hand, however, is pretty much entirely offensive. I don’t know these people personally, so I don’t know if the girl was okay with the comments or what, so she could have been in on the jokes, but, as an outside, it’s just disgusting and offensive to say that to anyone.
Can someone explain to me how “bracin’ mah anus” is not a rape joke. Seriously, can’t a girl make an innocent rape joke without anyone taking it the wrong way?
Ah, a ‘feminist’ is a person that believes in equality between the sexes, not a person that thinks women are better than men. I understand where you’re coming from as many women call themselves feminists but are actually sexist against men; kinda gives the term a bad rap.
Anyway, I agree with your statement about age. Those comments make me roll my eyes. All this nonsense about age irritates me (and you see it a lot). The age thing is just a limit and it doesn’t somehow make you ‘bad’ to think a girl is attractive because she’s not ‘legal’ in your country of origin. No, there, I definitely agree with you.
Yes, it is said deliberately to call attention to the hypersensitivity the USA has whipped itself into.
Could you have come back with a less responsive reply? I asked you about the “every broad with a hatchet wound” comment. Who are you referring to with that phrase, exactly?
If the last 2 words in the phrase mean what I think they do, then your quip isn’t just eye-roll-inducing in its adolescence, but in its stupidity as well.
It’s like saying “every tree that’s made of wood”…..Einstein.
So many words, so little content.
[action of subset of people] makes me hate [broad class of people]
there, fixed that article title.
So when a girl does it it is ‘cutesy’ but when a guy does it it is sexist and/or a rape threat?
I’m not a normal reader of reddit, but from what I can tell, there were no ‘sexist’ remarks until after her own remark.
Oh for goodness sake…
She was told to brace herself, and responded this. It was about tightening her butt in anticipation, like when you sieze up your entire body. It had nothing to do with sex. But even if it did, nothing justifies an avalanch of harrassing comments, including disgusting ones where it’s suggested that her blood or tears be used to lubcricate her rape.
It might be true that some people who call themselves “feminists” hate men and are using the feminist movement as a cover and rationalization for being jerks. But that’s true of every movement — no large group is without a few jerks. However, to characterize all feminists as hating men, when only a tiny fraction do, is both irresponsible and strikingly irrational.
I get irritated with the whole thing about this showing that the atheist community is sexist/misogynistic etc. It doesn’t, it shows that atheists have nothing in common except not believing in a god, and that being an atheist doesn’t make you any more or any less of a jerk. Misogyny and misandry are both rampant in the atheist community (just look at the elevator-gate discussions for appalling examples of both), and it’s not a problem with atheism – it’s just a problem with the world.
Trying to stop it in the atheist community as a whole is stupid, and pointless. It’s an impossible task, because there is no way of enforcing anything, especially on the internet. Also, your only chance of success is to do it everywhere, as all someone has to do to become part of the ‘atheist community’ is not believe in god. (I’m not saying that you shouldn’t take steps to avoid it in actual organisations themselves, before anyone suggests I am. I’m also not saying you shouldn’t stand up to it when you see it, either. You should do that everywhere, after all.)
Frankly, anyone who says something like ‘reddit makes me hate atheists’ is an imbecile. Even if the entirety of reddit was misogynistic, it would still say nothing about atheists in general.
As an aside, as there’s been some complaints about ‘feminism’ in the other posts here, although some people say feminism is a person who believes in equality between the sexes, if you look up dictionaries, that’s not what you get, which suggests their is another pervasive definition for feminism out there. Also, why do we need a blatantly ‘feminine’ word to stand for equality. Couldn’t we go for a gender neutral one? It would at the very least make it less painfully ironic.What’s interesting, is if I mention this to feminists, I usually get told to grow a pair (or something similar), and told it’s obviously not meant that way, so I shouldn’t care. Which, when you consider the whole Star Trek and ‘no man has gone before’ thing is also really rather ironic.
Ugh – I probably shouldn’t post when in a grumpy mood, should I? =/
Obviously that makes it all okay!
“many women call themselves feminists but are actually sexist against men”
Tsk, more whining… This is nothing but an uneducated guess unless you can cite actual examples.
“The age thing is just a limit and it doesn’t somehow make you ‘bad’ to
think a girl is attractive because she’s not ‘legal’ in your country of
Maybe not, but if you are significantly older than her, it makes you a little creepy. And anyway, the problem with that Reddit thread was not simply “thinking a girl is attractive” (!), it was deluging her with graphic rape jokes and misogynistic drivel! This can’t be a pleasant experience for any woman, especially if she’s a teenager and is just begining to get her way around the adult world. Adults are supposed to watch out for minors, not take advantage of them. At least, decent adults are.
To be honest, the moment anyone uses the term ‘reverse-sexism’ is the moment they lose any sense of credibility.
For such a phrase to make any sense, one would have to be claiming that sexism can only be done from one gender to another. Which is dictionary definition of sexism.
I can’t immediately see the post he used that term in, but if he did say it he is indeed a muppet.
I think Rebecca Watson covered the relevant points nicely.
Do you truly not realise how sexist that statement was? Wow. I’m scared that 6 people liked this.
Men are the equivalent of the religious, and feminists are the equivalent of the secular?
Sorry, but I can’t help my gender. I’m stuck with it.
And people wonder why feminists have a name for being just the other side of the coin to misogynists.
It’s a pretty obvious fact that some women that call themselves feminists are sexist. Sorry, but if you actually pay attention, it’s out there. It’s the very reason I didn’t want to call myself a feminist in the first place (though I do now to fight against such stupid things).
I agree that the thread on Reddit was not okay; however, I was not being specific to Reddit in that particular comment.
Not you too, Hemant! Beautiful high school girl posts a picture to an anonymous forum dominated by high school males and sexual comments follow. Big surprise.
…while neglecting to mention that the girl freaking started the entire pedo thread and continued to egg it on with further comments. Very creationist of her.
alphabetsoup is just asking that when you make accusations against men that you have proof. Much of the time Feminists have good points but some of the time the accusations against men are unsupported by facts and that is sexist. For you to sneer at people for “whining” over pointing that out is kind of sexist of you.
Yes women have faced the most sexism but there are double standards and negative stereotypes that affect men too. To say that nothing ever effects men is kind of sexist of you, Avery.
Let me be the first to welcome you to the Internet. Look around reddit for little while. You’ll begin to understand that these comments stem from certain “memes”, and are certainly not intended to be taken literally, much like the Bible. They’re a kind of inside joke, I suppose. Outsiders reading the comments will certainly have a “WTF” reaction.
The first commenter told the girl (in meme form) that she was pretty and would receive lots of compliments. The girl replied in a variation on the same meme, and added a sexual/rape reference, thus opening the door for future comments of that nature. None of these comments are literal; none of them are serious. Anyone who has actually used reddit for any period of time would know this.
How about having an equal conversation with EJC instead of assuming that as a woman you know more about gender issues?
Many years ago I saw an interview with then ER star George Clooney, during which the interviewer mentioned the “star treatment the like of he and Arnold Schwarzenegger must get” Clooney stopped him and said it’s not the same, people go to see Arnold, he’s 30 foot tall on the screen whereas he (George) comes into their living room every Thursday, so the publc are more familiar with him.
I think there’s a similar thing at play here, yea though the internet is a public forum I would say the majority of users are sitting at home on their laptops or phones, in a small private setting. That coupled with the thin veil of anonymity makes people be bigger assholes than they would be IRL (or at least in public).
This does not excuse this behaviour in anyway, but I’m sure it’s a contributing factor. Another factor is that some think it’s ok to make abusive, racist, sexist or simply obnoxious comments as long as they think it’s funny. I’m pretty sure many of those gobshites would use the excuse “I was only joking” as if it makes it ok.
If there’s even 1 upvote on a response about lubricating a 15-year-old with her own blood while raping her, it’s too many. We should be making every effort to call this behavior out, no matter who is responsible for it. Who cares who gets “pissed off?” It’s the right thing to do.
You nailed it.
I think that anyone who some how manages to think that it is okay to talk about blood being nature’s lubricant and other such horrors is disgusting. I would not have it on my website and would delete such comments or moderate if it were a problem. There should be some line of decency that when people cross that line then they are not allowed to comment.
I also do not think that the word feminist is a woman only issue having read quite a number of men using the word online. There are men and women that are feminists. It does describe “equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities” for women. Feminism has created a better world. Like atheists, feminists cannot really be put into a box. Many feminists are stay at home moms or real live men who believe that gender should not be the deciding factor on issues of pay, tenure, running for political office and school sports programs which all went in favor of men for a long time.
The point being that wouldn’t it be good to treat one another like individuals instead of this sort of crap where women are automatically targeted for gross comments. I really don’t get it even after hanging out around all guy groups for years. Is there no other way to prove your manhood than saying weird sexual things about women and each other??? I will never understand this mentality. Honestly, I’ve told guys to “knock it off, I’ve heard enough for one day”.
Men who think they are being discriminated against on the basis of their gender will have to simply state that they are being discriminated against due to their gender. There is no special word for that Cry me a river!!!! If it were a huge problem it would have a name but it is somewhat of a fringe problem, now isn’t it? On the other hand, I think that gender equality [in the respect that each of us should be treated as individuals is a good thing] is the best course for all of us to live the lives that we, ourselves, want to live. All of us, men and women.
If you are the one making gross jokes, stop and think for a moment. How would you feel if women were online making jokes about cutting your penis off or whacking your balls with a hammer or any number of nasty sexual comments? How would you feel if women were saying violent disgusting things about your ass bleeding makes for better f’ing with objects or some awful thing like that? You wouldn’t wonder about a mind that can say those things.
What if men were to down vote these comments or say “You went too far”? Instead of women are whiners for not expecting gross and disgusting comments when they go online. If men were to say “That isn’t right” instead of look at the feminists who want to cut our cojones off. Women really need to consider leaving the atheist communities that allow this sort of comment.
Do atheists [read male atheists] want more women at their conventions. Then learn how NOT to act like five year olds or disgusting pigs. This is a skill that can be learned. Otherwise, women may just have to band together and have their own conventions and leave the men in the cesspool. I’m sorry guys. I know that a lot of you are nice but there is way too many nasty talking men who don’t know when to say “That isn ‘t a nice joke” or “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to be so offensive. I don’t know what got into me”.
End rant, I suppose.
I think the chances of having an ‘equal’ conversation with EJC flew out the window when he called me an idiot and said my argument was weak without actually offering any real rebuttal.
Why wouldn’t I assume that I know more about my own marginalization than a man? I mean, as a white person, I would never seek to speak on behalf of a POC, nor would I, as a straight and cis-gendered female, feel as though I would know more about the everyday struggles of the LGBTQ and trans* communities. The chances of a privileged male being more intimately acquainted with sexism against women than me is pretty damn slim.
That’s a lot like assuming a Christian would know more about the Bible than you do. Or more about religious ceremonies. You don’t have to be a female to understand sexism.
TL;DR: A few people on this website are obnoxious, therefore all atheist men are sexist pigs. Also, censor the Internet!
Then call those specific people out on it. Skepchick took the time to call the entire community a cesspool, and that’s completely false.
Okay, a lot of people here seem to want to either take the “there is nothing wrong with these comments” or the “everything said was evil” extreme positions. Dare I actually take a more in depth look at this issue?
First, it should be agreed that responding the a girl’s post with mostly sexual comments where she can read it is wrong. She should be treated as a person who wants to have a serious discussion rather than just see her for her sexuality. She never asked for that and it is very disturbing for her.
The comments about blood and tears were disgusting and it is hard to see how it would be appropriate in any circumstance. The picture mocking the woman with the disability is also disgusting and should be called out.
It should be pointed out though that most of the comments listed were NOT about forcible rape. As for the girl being 15, we don’t know the age of the commenters. And even if they are over 18, I think that adults having sex with teenagers should be discouraged and probably be illegal, but it should be remembered that a 15 year old is a teenager not a child. Having sex with a pre-pubescent child is much much worse than having sex with a post-pubescent teenager.
While I don’t think that there is anything wrong with privately talking with your friends about who you are attracted to, it is wrong for the commenters to barrage her with these comments on reddit.
As for the joke about picture taking by gender, I think it is wrong for them to focus this joke in order to mock a specific person. But as for those who are offended that the drawing was made at all, remember that jokes mocking men to a much harsher degree than this are common so if you are going to criticize this I’d like to see you be fair about those too.
The jokes about kidnapping should also not have been used to refer to a specific person, though in general we see far darker humor than that about murder or torture on TV all the time. Don’t focus it on individuals though.
There. Rather than people making overly broad statements, hopefully we can learn to make sure that girls feel comfortable on reddit while not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Then call those specific people out on it.
That seems to be precisely what Felyx was suggesting.
Well, okay, EJC was being rude and just insulted you rather than making an argument in the post you were responding to so I don’t blame you for being mad about that.
I agree that we should listen to marginalized groups, but I think we need to get away from the idea that if a minority says something about their race or gender then that means that they are automatically right without question. Everything, including sexism and racism, needs to be analyzed by the facts. It shouldn’t matter what your race or gender is. The only thing that matters is if you views are supported by the facts.
Censor on your own website all you want. Frankly, I wouldn’t have Jew hating or vicious items that I think cross the line of decency on my website. I wouldn’t have the type of nasty, scary comments that were made on my website.
I didn’t say that all men are pigs or that all atheist men are sexist pigs. Why is it that you cannot acknowledge that this kind of behavior is either scary or not productive for conversation between the sexes?
There’s a ton of talk about the “Blood is mother nature’s lubricant.” comment. If you actually check this user’s history, you’ll see that his account only existed for 2 days before he made this comment. He doesn’t have any other posts in r/atheism except that one. This dude isn’t even a member of the r/atheism community, but apparently he represents us all.
We give creationists hell for believing blindly in everything they’re told, yet here we are blindly taking the word of the Fox News anchor of atheism, Rebecca Watson, as gospel.
What Felyx was suggesting yes; what Skepchick and PZ were getting at, no. I completely support the fact that the comments were in bad taste, and were entirely uncalled for. I just think that this would be a good opportunity for these people to go back into reddit, and actually try and make these changes instead of complaining about the website as a whole from outside blogs.
r/atheism has zero moderation, and this is a good thing and bad thing. Sometimes bad things come up, and they get upvoted. This is the right of people on there to do so, and while the comments can be vile, there should be no reason for outside people to get out their pitchforks against the entire group. “Well, there are some offensive people in the UK. We better call them all perverts and not visit there anymore.” This may be an unfair comparison, but as a member of reddit, this is how it currently feels to me.
reddit is an anonymous, open, and (mostly) un-moderated website and that is exactly why it thrives. People come to the site for all different reasons: humor, discussion, education, etc. Pick ANY post in any of the front page subreddits that have 100+ comments and you’ll see these kinds of off-color comments. This is NOT an atheism problem, it’s a reddit “problem”.
Basically, if you expect to have a decent discussion on reddit, also expect to have joke threads and the like strewn through the comments if your post becomes popular. You’ll notice that past the first couple comments to Lunam, the are predominantly about either the book that Lunam got, or books other people got, etc.
What not to do when you don’t want to see more sexual comments: egg them on, like Lunam did.
Though this is slightly offtopic, I’m a little peeved about how people seem to think 15 year olds are idiots who don’t know any better than to say things like “dat feel”. Believe me, we’re not all like that.
Don’t give in to political correctness. It comes from the same place as religion. It’s the internet – learn to take a joke or get out. The girl who posted the original photos gets the joke, is in on it, and actually kicked it off. Besides, at 15 years old she has the mind of an adult. Words are irrelevant – intent is what matters. I can guarantee everyone who made a so-called “offensive” comment did it to be funny, which is a positive motive. If you don’t want to be exposed to rude jokes, go to church.
The picture was not sexual in any way shape or form. Men post pics like this all the time and are never subjected to the threat of anal rape! This behavior is despicable and should be condemned, not tolerated and certainly not cheered or dismissed.
As a general rule, those double standard and negative stereotypes originally stem from sexism against women. I don’t know that I ever said men are completely unaffected, because gender policing of any kind if wrong, but it typically goes like this:
men crying? overt displays of emotion = female attributes, so that makes him less of man, it makes him almost a woman! and that’s unacceptable.
little boys who want to play with dolls? b-b-b-but dolls are for girls! are you trying to make into a little sissy?! god forbid he touch anything pink because he might grow a hideous vagina and I can’t think of any worse fate!!
Are you following me?
While I think the atheist community has once again blown something completely out of proportion, the only problem with your line of argument is, you are letting a 15 year old dictate the behavior of people possibly much older and/or more mature. These people know better regardless of what she said to “set it off.”
Not a surprise, but it should not be tolerated, and it SHOULD be called out.
That is how societies mature.
Uh. No. Anyone can read a book or take a class. I mean, I understand racism, I know it when I see it, but that doesn’t mean I’ve ever experienced it on a personal level the way a POC does, or, well, on any level.
So being attractive as a woman gives men the permission to act like assholes? I don’t think that you having a penis has as much to do with feminists hating you as much as your attitude. It’s fine to be attracted to a teenager, and another to talk about raping her, which is exactly what people are most outraged by. How would u feel if people talked about your daughter that way? Think about it.
I love how ridiculous this entire discussion is. “Reddit users make sexist remarks. There’s an atheist group on reddit. Therefore atheist men are sexist.”
Well, no. Not at all. If you look through the comments and commenters, you’ll see that most of the “sexist” comments were made by users who don’t even frequent r/atheism. The ones that do only post these same kind of comments (on r/atheism and other subreddits) and never anything of substance.
I don’t really understand what you’re suggesting be done here. I mean, if you really don’t like it, don’t visit reddit. It’s like going to 4chan and getting upset because people keep using the word “fag”. Or listening to a rap song and being offended by the word “nigga”. It’s going to happen; there’s no way around it. If you want to have decent conversation with atheists, you’ll probably want to find another community. Local meet-ups are awesome.
Gee, that really makes it okay for people to go even further and start making rape jokes and being disgusting.
You see, the fact that there are quite a few really nice comments about the book doesn’t really make it okay for the people making disgusting comments to make those disgusting comments.
I don’t frequent Reddit. Now I know why!
I have been in the situation where a gal makes a cute comment that is a bit sexual in nature and guys run with it and get really gross. I don’t get it. Settle down, put your rational brain in charge of your penis and don’t be disgusting.
Anyway, what angers me [I think] is that more people should simply say that was wrong to talk like that and that is misogynistic to talk really nasty like that and not turn this into a this is what is wrong with feminism and women should expect to be treated like this online sort of a deal.
Why not just say that kind of talk is wrong in my book? I wouldn’t want my sister, my mom, my grandma to be talked to in that way.
That is true, but I would note two things.
First, ending sexist opinions against women won’t automatically end the complimentary negative stereotypes that men face. This is why women lawyers are generally celebrated in our society but stay at home Dads are often mocked.
And second, there are double standards that men face that don’t have to do with negative stereotypes about women. For example men are more likely to get the death penalty than women who commit similar crimes. Whenever there is a controversy in the news involving a man who isn’t famous (thus not having the benefit of a community reputation) the comments are always more negative than similar stories where women are at the center of the controversy. People are more likely to assume that a woman meant well than they are to assume the same about a man. This isn’t based on negative view of women but rather on a negative view of men as a gender. We should be judging people by their actions rather than their gender.
This is why I try to avoid reading the comments on YouTube videos as well. There’ll be some video with a woman taking about some important topic . . . and then a bunch of comments solely about her appearance.
I don’t see how her saying she’s bracing herself justifies the sexual jokes. How exactly is the fact that she knows there are sexual and violent comments on the internet justify the sexual and violent comments? How does knowing that people do wrong things justify them doing the wrong things?
And the whole “this is just how things are” attitude annoys me. Yes, there are always going to be people who make such comments, but that doesn’t mean their actions are okay. The whole “boys will be boys” nonsense is ridiculous. Isn’t it rather insulting to men to say that this is just how men act? Yet, instead of seeing the excuse-makers as insulting men, there are people who will see those who point out wrongdoing as insulting men.
It is not “anti-male” to expect people of all genders to think before speaking and typing and to believe that people of all genders are capable of this (which is the exact opposite of the “boys will be boys” stuff). It frustrates me to no end that any post about anything mean done to a girl or woman gets turned into a thread about how feminists hate men.
Right, so that makes it okay to post rape comments? “Well, everybody else is doing it around here” is a good justification in your eyes to post something that happens in real life and seriously damages a lot of people’s lives on a daily basis?
Jokes or throw-away comments about rape are never okay, no matter what the context.
Seriously? Because she’s 15?
Wow, just wow.
It frustrates me to no end that any post about anything mean done to a girl or woman gets turned into a thread about how feminists hate men.
That is the truth. It is frustrating.
And the whole “this is just how things are” attitude annoys me. Yes, there are always going to be people who make such comments, but that doesn’t mean their actions are okay. The whole “boys will be boys” nonsense is ridiculous.
And to clear up any confusion, no I don’t think that the reddit commenters should be focusing on the girl’s looks rather than the topic of her post. That being said, I don’t think every accusation against a man or men is automatically true. We should be focusing on the facts rather than the person’s gender.
Female lawyers being celebrated? Elaborate?
Stay-at-home Dads are mocked because raising children is considered the woman’s job and people consider it emasculating that a man would rely on a woman to provide for him. So yeah, that too.
You really think that? Ending sexism against women would mean that women would finally be seen as equal. Which means it would no longer be demeaning for a man to be seen as feminine. Because femininity would no longer be seen as bad. So. Yes. It would.
I would argue that women are treated less harshly in court because they are seen as weak and unable to fend for themselves. I don’t have any statistics handy to back this up, but if I recall correctly, murders committed by women are usually more impulsive and emotionally-charged than those committed by men. Women are fairly often maligned for being ‘crazy’.
There was a point in time where husbands were encouraged to have their wives institutionalized for ‘hysteria’, though an overwhelming majority of the women put away were very sane. I don’t think it’d be far-fetched to conclude that the murders would be dismissed because the women wasn’t considered in her right mind, even if she very much was at the time.
As for men and women in the media, do you have an example of a lesser-known male being villianized strictly because of his male-ness?
But if we’re comparing and contrasting sexist attitudes towards women in the news, well, I don’t know that there could be enough time in the world to cover it all.
I’ve had discussions with plenty of people from oppressed communities. I don’t always walk away feeling as though they were right about everything, but part of being an ally to marginalized people is accepting that at a certain point your opinion isn’t all that relevant. It is not the place of the oppressor to police the views and opinions of the oppressed when it comes to their own oppression. (I don’t know that I’ve ever use that word so much in one sitting, ha) When people have had to fight every damn day of their lives just to be heard, I feel that it’s my duty, as a person with white, straight, cis or any other privilege, to sit down and shut up and let them talk.
Let’s hope that society someday reaches the point where we can all talk about oppression on a level playing field, but that’s certainly not the case right now.
What not to do when you don’t want to see more sexual comments: egg them on, like Lunam did.
Your argument here is basically the Muslim (or orthodox Jewish or some Christian denomiations) one too about women having to be covered, so as to not “egg [men] on” – as if these men just can’t control themselves! It’s all the fault of the female in question, never of the offending men.
Sorry, but that argument just doesn’t float and should be ridiculed and opposed for what it is, pure misogyny.
Clearly you have an axe to grind with Rebecca Watson, but that still doesn’t make the comment (or others like it) okay in any way. It’s no excuse that the poster had only had the profile for 2 days (which could suggest that it could be a dummy profile from another reddit regular).
I wish it would be possible to create a positive counterpart to
“boys will be boys” – a “men will be men” with the association that a “real man” acts courteously, thinks before he speaks/writes and generally comes off as the opposite of “boys will be boys.”
This has NOTHING to do with atheism. AT ALL. This has to do with misogyny, sexism, and members of my sex being completely fucking reprehensible.
Do I smell another “Yes, but…”?
Wow. You really did miss Scotanthony’s point, didn’t you? Here, let me put this is even simpler terms:
The SUBCATEGORY of men who complain about persecution by feminists, are the equivalent of the SUBCATEGORY of religious people who complain about persecution by secularism.
Now do you understand? He wasn’t saying that ALL men were like that. Your straw-man argument (“Men are the equivalent of the religious, and feminists are the equivalent of the secular?”) was horrendous and obvious. No, it’s not “Men are the equivalent…” it’s “Men who complain about persecution by feminists are the equivalent…”. Get it?
So it should just be accepted? You know what, Terabyte06? You’re part of the problem.
Hey, EJC, you sound like all the homophobes who say “Gays don’t want equal rights, they want special rights and want to strip straight people of their rights as well!” You would still sound homophobic. And, as luck would have it, you still sound sexist.
Nobody is asking you to apologize for being male or having a penis. Way to use hyperbole and exaggeration there, killer. This type of behavior is simply unacceptable, and it part of the problem, as a whole, of misogyny and sexism in general.
Are you really arguing against us calling people out on their sexist behavior?
For example, here is a meeting from the Association for
Legal Career Professionals promoting women in the legal field. It is unlikely
that you’d find anything like this to promote men in the nursing field or the
Elementary school teacher field. Promoting women in male careers does not
automatically promote men in women’s careers or in child care. Making it okay
for one gender to do more things does not automatically make society accept the
other gender doing more things. Maybe it is a form of sexism for women to be
supported for taking male roles but men being criticized for taking female
roles, but the way to combat that is to support men who take female roles.
Normally when women kill their husbands, the reaction isn’t
“well she must have been crazy”. No, what people say is “well,
he must have done something to deserve it”. That is the victim blaming and
sexism I am talking about.
As for unknown men being viewed more negatively than women,
here is one story I had read. The actual text has been deleted for some reason
(sorry, bear with me), but basically it talked about how Kate Winslet broke up
with her model boyfriend and started dating a rich man within the span of one
weekend. The model boyfriend said that Kate Winslet was cruel during the
breakup. You can read the comments below about people bashing him for daring to
express his unhappiness with how he was treated. If a girlfriend had been
dumped by a man and said he was cruel, I sincerely doubt that she would have
been treated in the same way
The simple fact, Terabyte06, is that you are indirectly condoning the actions of the people in the thread mentioned above. That’s it. That’s all we need to know in order to summarily dismiss you and see that your credibility is utterly destroyed.
Come back when you’re not in such a douche-y mood.
Well, again, I understand listening to minorities, but the idea that if you aren’t part of one “your opinion isn’t all that relevant” I think is going way too far. It isn’t about policing anyone’s opinions but rather about testing each opinion against the facts which is important for any debate.
I compare it to a girl going into a less-than-reputable neighborhood and saying to her friend, “Oh, gee, I hope I don’t get raped.” If she DOES get raped, does that mean she was expecting it, and it isn’t that big a deal? In this case, she was expecting the sexist comments, and got them. How does that make it OK or any less heinous?
People complaining about “political correctness” (which is a wholly subjective matter) often do so because they side with the people being offensive. This isn’t political correctness, Gavin. This is not joking about lubricating a 15-year-old girl’s anus with her own blood. Political correctness, my ass.
So that makes it OK… how, exactly?
I think George Bush would have loved you. If anyone says “Yes we should fight terrorism, but we shouldn’t kill innocent civilians” he can just respond “Do I smell another “Yes, but…”?” and presto! you are automatically labeled as anti-American! Wasn’t that a neat Neo-con trick?!
Seriously, try and actually support your view instead of taking “If your not with us your against us” absolutist bull shit.
Your argument isn’t even close to what I was getting at. I’m not saying misogyny is bad, and we should fight it even if it means innocent lives are lost… am I? No. I’m basically saying that misogyny is bad in all forms and there are no exceptions — none.
How hard is that to understand?
Again, while it would be serious if somebody meant that, this is the internet, and many of you clearly aren’t versed with reddit subculture. This shit is normal, and happens as a matter of course with no ill intent within it. The point is to be nasty and not care if someone gets offended.
“It is unlikely
that you’d find anything like this to promote men in the nursing field or the
Elementary school teacher field. ”
http://www.malenursemagazine.com/ http://www.minoritynurse.com/men-nursing/recruiting-men-nursing-school http://www.menteach.org/ (Incidentally, both my older brother and his male roommate are graduating with teaching degrees this spring. According to both of them, schools are desperate for male teachers and neither of them are concerned about finding jobs. There is also a good chance that schools will be willing to up their starting salary for the chance to have a male teacher at their school.)Funny, I’ve found the same exact attitude expressed towards women in court, though usually it’s during a rape trial. If we’re going to talk about sexism in the judiciary system, we’d be remiss not to note how many rapists go unconvicted ever year because the only witness was the victim, and “she probably did something to deserve it”. Some comments from the news article: ” What a cry baby. He really needs to grow some ba$$$!!! “” Oh please she dumped you…grow some balls and move on. “From what I gather, the fact that this man has opted to talk about his feelings regarding his public breakup renders him ball-less? I think this is a great example of one of the stereotypes I talked about above. Emotions are for girls!!!
Congratulations, you’re part of the problem, dude.
Um… elevatorgate WAS important. Or do you approve of rapey behavior from men?
Wow. Someone’s a bitter basement-dwelling troglodyte who can’t get a non-inflatable date…
How about you go fuck yourself? You’ve proven before that you’re nothing but an anti-woman douchebag.
This may come as a surprise to some people, but no, no, that does NOT “make it okay”.
Yeah…the point was that the powerful complaining about the disenfranchised (men complaining about feminists) is similar to the powerful complaining about the disenfranchised (religious complaining about atheists). Get it yet? Both ways it’s just ridiculous for the privileged whining about losing *some* privilege to those without privilege.
God, you know, now I’m really curious about these facts you keep talking about. I mean, in my experience, facts about racism, sexism, and homophobia? They prove it exists. So, what facts exactly are going to persuade, me, a woman, that the world isn’t really sexist, or convince a POC that the racism they experience on a daily basis isn’t actually racism? Why are you so hell bent on making the argument that a white male suffers from the same kind of abuse that either of those groups do when those same facts that you love so dearly do not back up your own opinion?
What on earth did she expect? If she regularly uses reddit, she would know the community and know that this would happen if she mentioned her sex. It’s like a black man walking into a KKK rally and acting surprised when he gets lynched. Sure, the actions of the community are awful and unjustifiable, but he knew well enough what the community was like and should have altered his behaviour accordingly.
Being atheist does not protect from being stupid or an asshole.
“So what, we’re supposed to pretend she’s not attractive until she’s 18?”
If you honestly don’t know the difference between acknowledging someone as attractive and harassing them, I’m pretty sure you’re not someone worth the trouble of talking to.
Of course Misogyny is always wrong. There is nothing in my post that said otherwise. What is it about my post that so upset you? Why did you reject it without providing a reason?
I say that people should be judged by the facts of the case they make, not their gender and you go into a rage. Why don’t you deal with your own sexism before you try and lecture other people?
And the fact is, you haven’t made your case. Just spewed more of your misogynist crap all over this site while claiming that everyone else is somehow a sexist for calling you on it.
Fuck you. You’re lower than the dog shit I wipe off my shoes.
‘Cuz he’s a white male, and us women and minorities are asking for “special” (read: equal) rights. You know, god forbid a white male be denied a job because someone else is more qualified for it…
Normally, when a woman kills her husband, it’s because she can’t take his abuse any more, and the police just smile, nod, and let him go. Again. You can only be hit, kicked, punched, STRANGLED so many times before you fucking snap, folks.
BTW, it’s called JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE. It’s also called SELF DEFENSE.
So you argue that double standards that negatively effect men are based on negative views of femininity and then you say that these double standards don’t exist at all. Which is it?
I said that they are not the same, they are in no way comparable. You’re talking about a handful of instances while I am talking about widespread, systematic oppression.
Umm, if this has nothing to do with Atheism then why is the name of Rebecca’s article “Reddit Makes Me Hate Atheists”?
I enjoyed the article but took issue with her closing remarks (emphasis mine):
R/atheism is a huge community of atheists, and here is an example of a young woman attempting to join it, to get more involved, who is sexualized and mocked for being a girl. Why would she ever want to be a part of any atheist community, if that’s how she’s treated? The next time you look around your atheist events and wonder where all the women are, think of this and know that there are at least some of us who aren’t willing to just accept this culture without trying to change it.
Misogyny and Sexism is a broad social problem affecting all communities, its not just specific within Atheist circles, yet in her closing statements Rebecca is quick to insinuate that all Atheists are responsible for the indefensible treatment received by this young woman and all women in general. The entire Atheist community at large is now at fault for this? Really?
If her article wasn’t about Atheists why assign blame for this incident to the larger Atheist community?
Yet again, you provide absolutely no facts to back up your view. You don’t even try to respond to anything I say because apparently you can’t. You just take a “you’re wrong because I don’t like what you say” childish response. If you think yelling insults at men is an acceptable substitute for actually having a civil conversation, then yes, you are sexist and you need to grow up or get off this rationalist site because your trolling is getting annoying.
Let’s say you have a group of people. Some members of this group are serial kiddie-fiddlers. The other members know of the abuses, but say nothing, do nothing, to stop it.
They’re just as guilty as the people who committed the actual abuses.
And so are we, when we let shit like this go.
It’s like any other kind of abuse. We look at it afterwards, and go, “oh, this is horrible,” when we knew damn well it was happening but did NOTHING to stop it.
Wow! You really have nasty beliefs about men don’t you? I
never said anything like that, but you knew that’s what I believed, because
that is what white males all believe, isn’t it wmdkitty? We are all out to get
you and the world needs you to tell everyone how evil white men are, doesn’t it
wmdkitty? Only you know our true secret evilness.
Drop the sexism. Get a life. Leave everyone else alone.
This from a forced-birther. Niiiice.
The feminist movement has worked for over a century to give women the right to vote and participate in whatever profession she chooses. To say that women are systematically oppressed is to say that none of those things actually happened.
Yes there is sexism and yes the majority of it affects women, but there have been many victories and most people truly do want gender equality so to accuse society of systematically oppressing women isn’t fair to the feminists of the past of the people of today.
You’re a troll.
“And the whole “this is just how things are” attitude annoys me. Yes, there are always going to be people who make such comments, but that doesn’t mean their actions are okay. ”
Especially when, as several people have pointed out in other places, people were overwhelmingly voting the offending comments up. It’s not just that people exist who will say these kinds of things. It’s the encouragement they get from bystanders. In the best realistically possible world, some of these comments would have gone up, but they would be languishing at the bottom of the page due to the massive number of downvotes.
And again, the comments she posted were all massively upvoted. That means this wasn’t a few bad apples making comments; it was lots of people encouraging them.
Why are we having a debate about standards of evidence when the offense in this case was in the form of public comments on an internet forum?
W o w. Yeah, totally, of course, how silly of me to forget that I can vote now! (Too bad one of the women I’d really love to vote for was told she couldn’t be president because her period could interfere with her running the country!) And yeah, I can work wherever I want! (I mean, it’s still only about 77 cents to a man’s dollar, that is if I’m lucky enough to white, since WOC only earn about 64% of the earnings of a white man.) And it’s not like male politicians are in charge of whether or not I should have control over my own body. And it’s not like 1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted in their life times. It’s not like of those women, 64% do not report it out of fear. It’s not like there are girls in parts of Africa who are having their genitals mutilated. It’s not like women in Iran are being stoned to death for adultery. It’s not like rape culture permeates every facet of mine and every other woman’s day to day life. And it’s not like this 15-year-old girl posted a picture of herself on the internet and people joked about anally raping her.
Lol. But thank god I can write my name on a ballot and get a job as a business woman!
Ha. Ha. Fuck. You.
Read my much longer post about 16 posts down or so from here.
Not sure how you decided I was part of the problem when my problem was how the issue was addressed, not the comments themselves. Thanks for getting self-righteous over something I never said.
I compare it to a girl going into a less-than-reputable neighborhood and saying to her friend, “Oh, gee, I hope I don’t get raped.”
Except that she didn’t just tell her friend privately. She whipped out a bullhorn and shouted it to her friend who was standing six blocks away, “I’m bracin’ mah anus ovah here!” (yes, I’m paraphrasing).
Making jokes about being ready to be raped is inexcusable.
In this case, she was expecting the sexist comments, and got them.
Right after she got done contributing her own rape joke, unless you think a joke about being ready to be raped is in some way okay.
The despicable responses she’s received cannot be defended, I agree with you there. But your effort to downplay her own inexcusable language is, in itself, inexcusable. Witty and cute comments about rape should not be tolerated, no matter who is saying them.
You seem to have missed my point. By remaining silent and not calling out the few assholes who say those things, we are just as guilty as they are.
Wow, it doesn’t even seem worth reasoning with you…what does this have to do with the double-standards he was arguing about?
I don’t know, I simply see nothing more than somebody anticipating (publicly, yes) that she will be harassed. I hope you’re not saying that her joke is equally as wrong as (or, worse, even more wrong than) the people who commented afterward and proved her right.
Hmmm, I would say that this kind of behavior online is certainly not limited to atheists. It’s very common on most online communities. However, since many atheists connect with each other online, read atheist blogs online, and generally organize online, this behavior is an atheist problem. I know that I personally follow atheist issues exclusively online, as they do not get published in my newspaper. So if the internet is hostile towards women, and atheists are a strong presence on the internet, atheists need to step up and do what they can to prevent the harassment of women on their turf. (And I apologize for the incoherence of this post, I have not had much sleep this past week. I’m having trouble saying what I want to say. 🙁 )
*deleted for a misunderstanding now cleared up*
No. I don’t think there’s any requirement to pretend someone is unattractive until they turn magical-age and suddenly things change. (magical-age is different from country to country anyway, 16 seems about average but 15 and 18 is also common)
I do however think that it’s horribly stupid and offensive to treat attractive women (regardless of age) the way she was treated, and I don’t think anyone would accept such comments if not for the shroud of internet anonymity.
Would you find it okay for someone in real life to comment to a female friend of yours that it don’t matter if she resists because “blood is natures lubricant” ? I think not. Those kinds of comments are offensive whether the woman in question is 15 or 25.
Who’s saying to let this go? I’m certainly not. We should be calling people out on their hatred and bigotry when we see it and make them responsible for it.
But insinuating an entire community must be responsible for the actions and decisions of all individuals even remotely associated with that community? What is this, Fox News?
Let’s say you have a group of people. Some members of this group are serial kiddie-fiddlers.
Comparing the systemic rape of children by an established institution who’ve brainwashed their members into accepting their unquestioned authority to the misogynistic rants of a bunch of douche-bags on the internet?
Wow. Way to marginalize actual rape victims. What’s next, all Muslims are responsible for 9/11?
Right. I just skimmed through this mess of a comment thread.
THIS is why I mostly avoid atheist groups and spaces: because when someone brings up an instance of misogynist behavior there is inevitably a passel of yahoos that spew forth a set of a convenient excuses and distractions from the matter at hand. Because of stupid shit like this, I mostly avoid reading the comment threads at atheist websites.
I’d suggest tighter control over moderation, but I can just imagine the cries of “you’ve violated my freedom of speech” and “you are silencing those who disagree”.
If you want more women to participate, take the presence of sexism and misogyny seriously, and moderate out the prejudicial jerks.
How is rephrasing but keeping the entirety of the meaning of what Scotanthony said strawmanning?
You’re a moron. Try a dictionary, you might find it useful.
If Scotanthony meant something else, then they should have said something else. Especially on a sensitive topic like this.
As it is, your altered version is equally as bad. It makes the assumption that it is never right to complain about feminists, whatever they do, which is ludicrous.
Damn, but I hate prejudiced people like you.
Rights that men used to have but do not any more-
The right to force his wife to have sex with him even if she doesn’t want to have sex.
The right to use his wife’s property as he wishes.
The right to absolute control over their children.
Do you think that any or all of those rights should be returned to men?
What rights do women have that men do not? I can’t think of any, but being on the inside I may not be noticing a right that I have that you do not.
N.B. By ‘rights’ I mean ‘legally backed expectations and options’. Shifts in society and culture has meant that some things might look like a new right for women only, but isn’t- e.g.-
Anti-discrimination laws do not mean that women, disabled people, ethnic minorities etc. have an extra right to be given a particular job, they mean that the employer does not have a right to refuse them a job based on the candidate being female, disabled, black, etc.
In divorce cases the mother is more likely to be granted custody of the children, but that is due to a cultural view that says children, especially small children, should be with their mother. Mothers do not have an automatic right to custody.
BTW, those sit-coms you describe sound rather boring. Come over to British comedy- we have ‘Spaced’ and ‘Black Books’ to mention only two, where every character can have their ‘adult-child’ moments!
The sentiment isn’t, “Atheists suck, I hate them.” It’s “Darn it, not in my backyard!”
“The other members know of the abuses, but say nothing, do nothing, to stop it. They’re just as guilty…”
I regularly read r/atheism and didn’t even bother to read any of the comments in the thread in question until Watson’s “…Hate Atheists” post went viral.
Now I, and thousands of others, are “guilty” of not downvoting posts we didn’t read in the first place, thanks to Watson running with a broad brush.
Which behavior? The teenage female OP making the “protect my butthole” comment that started off the firestorm or all the other male and female teenage commenters who continued the joke?
This is the worst sort of drama. Manufactured drama.
Yeah, that must be why shows like Family Guy and South Park were such total failures. Oh wait, no. Those shows are immensely popular and include jokes about child molestation, rape, and genocide. Quit being so hypersensitive people. This is ridiculous.
I would say the tirade of misogynist hate filled rants and threats of violence against a young girl “behaviour.”
I’m not sure why you see that as somehow equivalent to a young girl making a joke about herself except perhaps in the same way that in judeo-christian-muslim extremist tradition women are always seen as responsible for inviting male sexual violence.
Bloody hell Allan you are the Catholic Church. Next you’ll be comparing feminists to the KKK.
“Yeah, that must be why shows like Family Guy and South Park were such
total failures. Oh wait, no. Those shows are immensely popular and
include jokes about child molestation, rape, and genocide.”
I see so when religious extremists go on hate filled rants against non-believers that’s okay because the bible is full of this stuff and it’s very popular. Thanks for clearing that up.
Huh? Your reasoning skills are as atrocious as Watsons. “We” didn’t even know about it till a minute ago. “We” are not responsible for what Christians and other random people post on a web site “we” do not even frequent.
It had nothing to do with sex? Keep telling yourself that. She jokingly was bracing for an anal reaming. That was enough to set off the stream of jokes. She is probably not even taking this seriously.
Rebecca Watson would be an example. She specifically states that men’s rights make her angry. Women apparently have rights and men don’t, according to her. That’s sexist.
Fine to call it out. Stupid to make all the inflaming generalizations Watson did, along with claiming that men’s rights get her angry. She’s a bigoted bomb thrower that wishes to communicate her hatred of all male and atheist males in particular.
Rebecca Watson hates atheists and gets angry about men’s rights. Reddit comments are a cesspool. What a surprise in both instances.
Rebecca and you are both stereotypical bigots.
We’re talking about the behavior of the idiots talking about a fifteen year old girl. Your attempt to throw the spotlight elsewhere is odd.
Haven’t been able to keep score. Who’s ahead? The Feminazis or the Wife Beaters?
I’m throwing my hat in with those saying that this is not a problem specific to Atheists. At all. Having been a mmorpg and forums veteran, I can say confidently that this sort of behavior is correlated to internet users, particularly a specific type who also frequent forums like 4chan, and troll the general chats of World of Warcraft and the like. being a poster in r/Atheist does not automatically make you an actual Atheist, it makes you someone who knows how to get into that forum. I’d say her rant is misdirected completely at fellow atheists, and would be better pointed at internet trolls and basic human impulses to behave in an uncouth way when anonymous. Such a rant would be nigh futile, but still more aptly directed.
So let me see if I got this right then:
Boy tells rape joke : Horrible misogynistic douche!
Girl tells rape joke : Oh, its okay, she’s a girl who didn’t mean it.
Look, time to get personal here. I know rape survivors. I know that long after physical scars have healed the emotional ones last a lifetime.
I also know there is absolutely nothing funny, witty, cute, charming, or okay about rape.
She could have made any number of snide remarks about the harassment she was expecting, she didn’t, instead she decided to make a “funny” remark about how she was looking forward to be anally gang raped.
So you’re damn right I think her joke is equally as wrong as all the nonsense that followed. And if you were equally as serious about combatting a culture which thinks rape is no big deal and a joke to be laughed over you’d be just incensed about her “funny” comment and stop trying to make excuses for her.
Let’s be really clear, okay?
It is NEVER okay for ANYONE to make a joke about rape!
THIS. I’m an equal-opportunity offender when it comes to tasteless jokes and joking about awkward and uncomfortable subjects. But even I know that there’s a big fucking line, and joking about rape and domestic violence (which, in my horrible experience, go hand-in-hand) crosses it. Twice.
She was referring to the subreddit called Men’s Rights which is full of misogynistic drivel and woman hating. Not ACTUAL men’s rights and gender equality. There is a difference.
It’s Watson’s pet peeve.
I’d insert a joke about her being a woman, involving a kitchen as an ironic jab at her sexismism, but I’d be crucified for being sexist, white, priviliged and male.
Rebecca Watson is an atheist and to my recollection have not said anything about our rights.
Have you tried Good Guy Greg?
Apparently I am the most naive human being ever to have existed. Now, I knew, if you looked, you could find anything online. Anything. I had never been to Reddit. But because of this I discovered they have an entire . . .section, or whatever, about beating women. I was actually surprised by that. Am I an idiot or what?
You automatically lose any chance of being taken seriously once you use the term privileged male and generalize it to every human being with one vagina too few.
Uh, except every male, at least those who are cis-gendered, does have privilege? they might not have other privileges, they might be gay, or a POC, and therefore suffer through other forms of oppression but yes, being male does automatically give you privilege.
You’re right, Family Guy and South Park are popular BECAUSE they contain rape jokes… do you even see how silly that is?
Also, your stance still falls into the “well, everybody else/they (specific group) are doing it, so it’s okay if I do as well” category, which is no excuse for acting in such a manner.I can also conclude that you personally don’t know any rape victims or you’re totally devoid of empathy and decency if you do.
It’s got nothing to do with hypersensitivity.
Lastly, there’s also a huge difference when the context is in a general animated show and when it’s being directed at an actual person you’re communicating with. I hope you see the difference.
You completely missed my point. You sound like one of those people who — when that Florida pastor burned some Korans and Muslims in the middle east murdered a bunch of Christians — blamed the pastor equally.
“Men who think they are being discriminated against on the basis of their
gender will have to simply state that they are being discriminated
against due to their gender. There is no special word for that Cry me a
river!!!! If it were a huge problem it would have a name but it is
somewhat of a fringe problem, now isn’t it?”
I was with you up until here. I’m a feminist, and I totally agree that feminist issues are, at their core, issues of gender equality that affect both sexes. However, the fact that there’s no special word for “men being discriminated against” doesn’t mean it’s not an issue. You just got done saying that misandry and misogyny are two sides of the same coin, and now you say the one side isn’t a real problem. What gives?
“I didn’t say that all men are pigs or that all atheist men are sexist pigs.”
Yes you did, whether you meant it this way or not, when you said “Do atheists [read male atheists] want more women at their conventions.
Then learn how NOT to act like five year olds or disgusting pigs.”
Excuse me, last time I checked, not all atheist men act like five year olds or disgusting pigs. For the record, I agree with the spirit of Watson, but not her delivery, for the same reason.
And that’s all I have to say about that.
whoa, bold tag fail. I apologize for everyone’s eyes. 😛
Rapey? What counts as “rapey”?
What’s odd is how some random idiots on a random site are being used by Rebecca to make claims about ALL (male) atheists. That particular web site is in large part a humor web site with many nonathiest commenters. It’s not a serious site so don’t take it seriously.
Next she’ll be writing about how Chris Rock or Eddie Murphy makes her hate black people, or worse how Sam Kinison makes her hate blacks.
If you don’t like tasteless jokes then don’t go to tasteless sites.
It’s not a double-standard. It’s the truth.
This is precisely the fallacy of male privilege I’ve complained about many times on this site. It directly teaches that having a penis invalidates ones arguments. Which is an absurd ad hominem.
So, you DO agree that the comments are tasteless and obnoxious? See,that’s what we’re talking about here. Anything else is obfuscating the point.
As for your complaints, I suggest you keep your shins away from coffee tables. You obviously have very thin skin, and you might bleed to death.
Oh, for starters, cornering a woman ALONE in an elevator and propositioning her. Ignoring her stated wishes.
The men/boys who would read comments, comment, and/or vote on a 15 year old girls post are self selected. Not representative of anything.
He didn’t say the comment was ok. But don’t let that get in your way. I’m really puzzled but the numerous comments like this that show a complete lack of reading comprehension skills. What is with you people?
So how did your reasoning lead you to believe the a potentially reedit regular is automatically atheist or somehow representative of atheists like Rebecca has? Since when are anonymous jerks who create fake accounts specifically to make nasty comments on reedit elevated to atheist ambassadors and representatives? Doesn’t the fact that such accounts are easy to make undermine the reasoning underlying the supposed reliability of making deductions from vote counts. One hundred votes could be a mere dozen jerks, all Christian kids. There is no way to know. Jumping to conclusions seems rather unadvisedly given the realities.
His point stands.
Asking a mature woman who post sexually suggestive photos of herself on the Internet, and uses her sexuality to get popular, up to your room for coffee while on an elevator, when you just stayed up till four in the morning with said woman pitifully waiting for your shot while listening to her drivel.
That was posted with IPad which resulted in ridiculous auto spelling changes. Unadvised being an example of a word changed automatically.
Not what she wrote.
(Just a request, it would be great if we could maybe stop using a person’s genitalia as some sort of indication of their gender? Not all men have penises, not all women have a vagina. Thanks!)
Acknowledging one’s own privilege is central to discussions of marginalization and discrimination. It doesn’t invalidate your argument, but it does mean being more self-aware about your own place in the world when compared to those of the oppressed. Having privilege and admitting that you do does not make you a bad person. By recognizing that there are systemic powers in place that, by and large, favor one gender, or one race or one sexuality, a person can begin to question their own ideas and assumptions about the world, and start accepting the fact that there is a good chance they are wrong.
I’m not sure why people have such a hard time differentiating between talking about the damaging effects of a patriarchal society, and someone saying that, you, personally, because you’re a dude, have committed heinous acts of violence and bigotry against woman-kind. It’s not an attack on you, or any other man. It’s an attack on a fucked up system that routinely shits on specific groups of people. And hey, wouldn’t you know it, atheists get shit on, too! Not to get all ‘kumbaya’ on anyone, but shouldn’t we be in this together?
She didn’t specify that subcategory. just skimmed it and it is mostly valid men’s rights articles. She’s got a big communication issue. If she means that misogynistic comments get her mad then say that, not something completely different.
She states she hates atheists when she means either “male atheists” or some other subcategory of atheist that overlaps with other groups. Why attack all atheists for some nasty jokes made by nasty joke makers of all stripes?
Of course but in their minds the default male condition is moral deviant. Were as in our minds it is obvious this is not acceptable behavior.
Funny thing is that tea bagging comments (just as sexually demeaning) are perfectly acceptable on sites like PZ’s yet he becomes all sensitive to language in other cases. It might be tolerable if the were evenhanded about it but their comments and sites are often cesspools in their own right.
‘ What counts as “rapey”?’
Feeling entitled to someone’s body and getting pissed when you’re turned down.
He didn’t say “BECAUSE”. Please stop with your straw man mischaracterizations of others comments. You are wasting time.
..oh and yes, prison rape jokes get laughs and that is about men getting raped. You going to get all hypersensitive about that?
Anyone who says “check your privilege” immediately loses all credibility.
Cesspool refers to the fact that the comments are unmoderated and that the “shit” floats freely. It’s not a claim about every person on there. If that were the case then Waston would be part of the flotsam she’s complaining about.
Does the same behavior by women count as ” rapey” behavior? If a woman asks me over to her apartment to “hang Xmas decorations” when I’m ALONE in the coffee room then have I been rapied (spelling)? Especially if I made it clear to her I was married beforehand?
If so then I’ve been rapied more than once.
Exactly who do you think wouldn’t agree the are tasteless? Even the people making them know they are tasteless. Which is why they are setting up brand new anonymous accounts to make the jokes. You don’t understand that guys like Andrew Dice Clay don’t know they are being offensive?
What we’re talking about, and was part of the article is a link to Watson’s article, Hemant’s article, and all the surrounding issues. If you don’t want to discuss Watson’s bigoted comments then don’t respond to any comments surrounding that sub issue.
Some bigot who titles an article “OJ Simpson Makes Me Hate Blacks” doesn’t get to restrict the subject to the topic of OJ’s wrong doing. Nor would it be thin skinned for someone who is black (or white to question the title).
It quite clear now that you are fine with such bigoted statements.
Follow the link in the article. Only repeating her comments. Being something does prevent you from hating yourself. If she doesn’t mean what she wrote then she’d better clarify.
Having a conversation with your imaginary friend you are sharing on the internet? Please tell us exactly what he said about this being ok because the rest of us can’t hear him, except perhaps GentleGiant. I suspect he has an imaginary friend of his own.
You forget the fact that in Rebecca’s fishy story she just spent around 5 hours in a bar with the guy (assuming a reasonable finish time for the conference) in close enough proximity that he would be expected to hear her every word, and that he left soon enough after she did to catch the same elevator. Which means that unless they were at the table alone there were plenty of witnesses to that effect. Not likely he would rape her on the elevator under such circumstances and she certainly did not bring up any such fears. In fact the way she told the story showed zero fear of the guy at all.
Since he complied with her decline of his offer that doesn’t sound like an attempted rape either. Even had she gone to the room she already agrees the implicit assumption would have been for consensual extramarital sex. How could he have been planning a rape if this was understood? Certainly she would be opening her self up to a potential rape should she change her mind, but he’s also opening himself up to a potential false rape charge should she sleep with him and regret it later.
As a “this is not how to pick up a girl story” it was fine. As a “I hate the [male] atheists” or ” this is why there are no atheist women” story it doesn’t pass muster.
Who said he was pissed? No one. There is also zero evidence he felt entitled to her body. In fact all the presented evidence points the other way. If he felt entitled he would not have asked, nor asked in the sheepish way he did.
I feel entitled to my wife’s body, and I’d be pretty pissed if she. Turned me down for random or manipulative reasons. Pissed enough to divorce her. I’d call that “divorcy” not rapey.
Some guys will also expect sex from girls who are known to put out on the first date, who flirted with them sexually all night, and for whom they. Just bought their third expensive dinner date with no luck. They eventually will get pissed and not ask the “slut” out again. I’d just call that guy “chumpy” and don’t see how that would count as rapey.
Rapey, one would think, should be reserved to those who actually intend to rape, or who have shown a propensity to actually violently rape. Like those guys in prison who make other guys their bitches.
Your definition of “rapey” makes it sound like every guy who ever hoped for sex and got pissed when mislead is an attempted rapist. Ever heard of a cock tease? They actually exist. Like the girl who my sister introduced me to who rubbed her ass in my lap in the restaurant right in front of my sister. A sister who asked later asked how things went and when told not so well replied, “I was convinced you would stay the night because her hands we’re all over you.”. (I was in Kansas on a visit from NY with my sister)
She got all Christian in her room once I had her top off. I was expecting sex. I didn’t however get pissed about it till the next day when she expected me to call her again. Yeah, like that was going to happen, cock tease.
I would really like the girl to report any illegal private messages she got from the pedophiles to the police. That propably isn’t going to happen because the first thing her mother is going to do is ban her from the Internet. She should delete the post, get the hell off Reddit, and move to a moderated site. She’ll have to make that call.
Perhaps Hemant’s or someone else would give her a shot. She really shouldn’t be on Reddit as it has channels like jailbait (I have just learned). It’s apparent she was to immature to understand the shitstorm her anus joke was going to cause. Even too immature to understand that her joke could be found offensive by others who had been raped, even though she makes that objection about comments by others.
There are comments over there criticizing it before it happened, while it happened and after it happened. The ones criticizing it before it happened were predictive.
You know, if the feminists wouldn’t express their anger in anti-male verbiage there’d be no need for correction. Just imagine if Watson hadn’t titled her article “Reddit makes me hate [presumably male] atheists.”. No one would be thinking she was a misandrist or objecting to her obvious gross over generalizations and irrationality.
Certain aspects of this just are the way they are. Reddit is an unmoderated anonymous forum and that is bound to be populated by jerks. Especially with the content it also allows. This kind of phenomenon is always associated with such characteristics. I’ve personally gotten this kind of nonsense on unmoderated forums. I been subjected to sexual references to tea bagging, had comments made about my sexuality (despite being hetero), insinuations made about my motives being sexual, and so forth. This has been done by all stopes of people from religious to atheist,and left to right.
If she wants to avoid such crap she should not be on Reddit. There is zero I or you can do about it. That’s the reality.
She should also learn that being 15 doesn’t give her a pass on the anus jokes. From what I understand people went way beyond that. However, she also complained about those who followed her lead, using the possibility of rape victims reading the comments as her rationale. Kinda hypocritical.
Maybe her mom needs to restrict her internet access using some PG 15 filter. As for anyone who actually threatened her, she should contact the police.
So do you want Hemant to censor to your liking or are you advocating this for the entire Internet, Reddit, or what? How are you sure he would censor to the tastes of your particular subcult of feminism? I’m sure feminists couldn’t even come to an agreement as to which comments here should be censored. How about you point out a few examples of comments you’d have Hemant delete?
If Hemant decided to ban anyone he wouldn’t actually be violating anyone’s rights. However I don’t think that would satisfy you. You actually want to censor what Hemant allows. That would violate Hemant’s rights.
You have anything to say about prejudicial comments by feminists like Watson? Should these be censored also?
These feminists just don’t see their hypocrisy do they. It must be their privilege speaking, LOL. They’re “all male are like this or that” in their verbiage but get their tails in a knot if you use “female” to refer to the opposite sex from “male.”
Hint to feminists: Use specific examples and restrict criticism to those who actually are guilty of bad behavior. Otherwise it sounds like and is the same bigoted nonsense you rail against.
Except he didn’t make that argument. The girl started off with the misandrist joke that the male response would naturally be to anally rape her. There’s a big difference between going on a no holds barred web site by choice and throwing that out there then being told who you can associate with and what you can wear.
His argument is more like if you are going to go into the men’s shower by choice and grab a random guys penis, you can expect the men to join in. Now that may be true for the rape jokes but it isn’t true for what he was not addressing, the private messages which I understand we’re not joking.
There are plenty of women who go make and with these kinds of jokes. Not every woman wants to be swaddled in a feminist burka. Yes, the are misogynist jokes, and yet they have no problem with it. Some even take it as a complement. They want to be told the are attractive enough to drive a man to contemplate rape. Likewise men who get in on misogynist jokes, gays who get in on homophobic jokes, and blondes in on blond jokes. Criticizing such people for egging these things on isn’t automatically blaming the victim.
I think a guy like Chris Rock is in fact egging on racist jokes. My criticism for him doing so isn’t automatically “pure racism”. If he does want to start a chain of racist jokes in a bar full of comedians then he shouldn’t make one.
That’s pretty simple to understand. I’m sure you’ll come up with some more misunderstandings given you track record on this thread and I’m bracing for those.
Any private or public messages that were actual initiation threats, of course, cross the line in any situation. Also little girls shouldn’t be hanging out at raunchy bars at all hours with adults cracking dirty jokes and the adults should know this more than the little girl. Where is her mom? Where are the adults at Reddit who control the site?
Are you condoning little girls visiting inappropriate sites on the Internet? Cause I can jump to that conclusion with the same validity as the conclusions you jump to, none.
The point is that it is one thing for a 50 year old to be attracted to a 15 year old and quite another for him to be directing rape jokes at her in public, and threatening messages in private. She’s not mature enough to participate at that level and they should know it, even if she doesn’t. No woman of any age should be getting rape threats, if that happened. Mixed up male teenagers is another issue.
And you do the same thing by lumping all feminists in together. Be specific, asshole.
Anyone who uses the word ‘feminazi’ seems unfamiliar with either Nazis or feminism.
The Nazis wanted women back in the kitchen. They even gave medals to women for having lots of children.
Feminism is about equality. The name refers to women because historically women had fewer rights then men. This is still the case in some parts of the world today. When you realise that abortion is still illegal in Ireland or look at the rise of the religous right in America, the gains women have made seem very precarious.
I’m white, educated, and from a middle class background. Circumstances I can’t control – like my skin color and my parent’s income gave me advantages over others. UNEARNED advantages. I got them by simply being born. That is what privilege is. You don’t give up your position in society or “lose” by recognizing that. You are giving space for others to empower themselves.
Humanism was already taken. But it is a good start.
A marriage license does not grant you entitlement to your spouse’s body. That’s pretty disgusting. There is nothing anyone can do to, or for, or with anyone else that could result in one person somehow ‘owing’ the other person sex.
That’s some pretty heavy-duty slut shaming, dude. A person’s sexual history doesn’t give any kind of implicit consent to their potential future sexual encounters. No means no, regardless of the time, or place, or how much dinner cost or the current state of undress. Of course it can be disappointing for the person being given the red light, but something has clearly made their partner uncomfortable or confused, or sobered up enough to make them want to stop and we have the responsibility as decent human beings to respect their decision without question.
In Skepchick’s situation, as I heard it originally in the video she posted about the conference, she was at the hotel bar, with a lot of other people, and when she made the announcement at 4 AM that she was tired, and was going to bed. A guy with whom she was unfamiliar with followed her into the elevator, and propositioned her. At what point did she make any indication that she wanted to do anything but go to bed by herself?
And in case you’re still wondering why a grown woman would be intensely frightened by being approached by a stranger in confined space, it’s called rape culture.
Ooh, blaming the victim. How… civilized… of you.
A great summary of and response to the craptastic responses that this incident has generated.
Tacking on to that, Greta made a spot-on post about derailing.
That was a great link Avery. Thank you.
I got up to comment 135 on her post and more guys than I could count engaged in the exact same behaviors she criticized. That thread has nearly 700 comments on it. And then there is the assortment of derailings and half-baked excuses on this thread. And then their are all the rancid responses present in the comment threads of nearly every other post that has tried to address sexism among atheists.
So, this is just a problem with Reddit, huh?
This is going to be my only reply to you, Brian, because I find your defense of rape jokes incredibly offensive and disturbing.
Now it’s all of a sudden the girl’s parents fault? Or the owners/moderators (of which there apparently are none in the specific section)?
So the people (guys I’m guessing, wild shot, I know) who make these unsavory comments aren’t responsible at all?
Also, how does anyone actually know that her comment was an anal rape joke?
You clench up your entire body when bracing for something unpleasant. Saying that you brace your anus or your butt cheeks isn’t an invitation or the same as saying that you’re expecting to be raped anally.
I know I’ve put questions in the above, you may answer them, but don’t expect a reply from me again. You have also shown in this thread an, in my opinion, very warped view of what is okay and not okay to joke about.
It annoys me when people take these things too seriously. Yes, she wasn’t being taken seriously, as most females in a male-dominated online community. And yes, that is a problem. But to go over the top and call a raunchy joke a violent threats of rape is a problem too.
I wish that each and every one of you men making excuses for this shit could spend a year as a woman.
Maybe then, you’d get it.
Hint to feminists: Use specific examples and restrict criticism to those who actually are guilty of bad behavior. Otherwise it sounds like and is the same bigoted nonsense you rail against.
Uhm, with your “hint to feminists”, you’re using precisely the same kind of wording/generalization that you (and Bryan) are critcizing Rebecca Watson for. I guess you didn’t notice that.
In order to avoid hypocrisy, follow your own advice and “use specific examples” instead of broad-brushing all feminists.
Yay, a teaching moment 🙂
You know, if the feminists wouldn’t express their anger in anti-male verbiage….
And there you go again! doing precisely the same thing you’re criticizing Rebecca Watson of doing…..you’re on a roll here Brian 🙂
I’m a feminist and I don’t express “anger in anti-male verbiage”. So hmm, it seems your comment was too much of a generalization (is this reminding you of anyone Brian?) Although you posted this in the last 48hrs or so, it seems that you need to be reminded of your own words:
“Use specific examples and restrict criticism to those who actually are guilty of bad behavior. Otherwise it sounds like and is the same bigoted nonsense you rail against”
Funny you should mention that. I’m a trans woman. Consequently, I’ve had ample opportunity to compare and contrast two very different social experiences. I transitioned from male to female a while ago, but three sets of memories stand out quite vividly for me:
1) The boy culture I grew up in encouraged boys to think of girls/women as sexual objects. Sexual humor that treated girls/women as things to be *fucked* was a common means of bonding with other boys. It also encouraged one to view sex as an act of dominance. This creates the perception that when one has sex with a girl/woman, one is taking something away from her.
2) When a group of men think that there isn’t a woman in the room, the kinds of things they say can be pretty terrible. During the years leading up to my transition, I identified as a woman, even though I still looked like a guy. I heard some really terrible crap come out of guys mouths. It took a number of years after transition before I could start to trust men as human beings. Those memories had to fade before I could look at a man without a sense of wariness and anger.
3) Rarely had I been catcalled or sexually harassed when I looked like a guy. The amount of sexual harassment that I experienced after my body changed simply shot through the roof. Men have no idea how their half of humanity treats the other half. No frigging idea.
This problem is way larger than Reddit. It extends through the entire culture that we live in. It’s a pronounced problem in atheist communities because the gender balance is skewed heavily toward men. Hence, the overly-sexist atmosphere that women complain of.
Yes, I wish there was a pill that I could secretly drop into a sexist guy’s drink that would shift his body to female for an extended period of time. It would be quite interesting to see him try to cope with that experience.
Possibly much older, sure. But more than likely not, or not by much. Reddit is about two-thirds under 25, and over half of its users are full-time students (high school or college). (http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/gzb2w/i_made_a_basic_reddit_demographic_survey_lets/ is just one demographic survey, google for more).
Saying other 15-18 year olds know better than the 15 year old that started it is pretty ignorant…
Feminism is a great thing. It’s kind of sad that a word for it even exists. But radicals like Rebecca Watson give feminism a bad name.
Not a person in this entire thread has said anything about it being “OK”.
No. It’s completely fine for a woman to ask a man out. That’s female empowerment.
Only a rapist would ask a woman out for coffee.
/sarcasm, unless you’re Rebecca Watson
He followed her into an elevator, at four in the morning, and invited her up to his room. She was alone in a confined space with a stranger and it comes as some sort of surprise that she would be uncomfortable?