Think About This When You’re At the Reason Rally

Nit-Pick: I’m not a huge fan of the “primitive superstition” theme. It is both denigrating to the peoples commonly described as primitives and inaccurate as an explanation of religious themes and traditional narratives. Frankly, I don’t think the statement above loses anything of substance by dropping the word “primitive,” but I cringe whenever I see that theme worked into freethinking rhetoric.

Anyway, hope everyone has fun, …and acquits themselves well.

Is it primative to choose to pray while your child screams with a intestinal blockage or meningitis or a bone disease rather than take them to a doctor? Thirty-eight states still allow parents to do this to their kids. I was one. My parents prayed and all I got was this prosthetic leg.

Actually barbaric is more accurate. Or torturous.

“lot’s of Christian groups will be protesting there,”

The irony of christians protesting a reason rally never fails to make me laugh and laugh. Take a moment to enjoy it, stop by one and have a good laugh.
Wish I could be there.

Overthinking. It’s just us. 

Fyfe’s comments brought to mind Goya’s “The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters”  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleep_of_Reason_Produces_Monsters)

I don’t know what groups you are talking about Hemant, but the groups that I know  are planning on attending the Reason Rally simply want to have a friendly and reasonable dialogue with others who do not share their views.  I can understand some may have a lack of desire to engage Christians when at the reason rally, but making a disturbance, or shouting people down or protesting, is not their plan.  They are there to see if there are Atheists willing to engage them in reasonable dialogue.  I don’t know what anyone has to worry about when it comes to dialogue like this, because if what we believe is right (whether we are Christians or Muslims or atheists or any other worldview/religion), we have nothing to fear from the facts and evidences, because if what we believe is true, the facts will support what we believe, and so we have nothing to fear from engaging others respectfully and reasonably.

What I do find amusing is that the same person who would invite the Westboro Baptists to the reason rally, a group known for protesting and picketing and being all around nasty towards others they don’t agree with, and yet would vehemently oppose a much more reasonable group of individuals who simply want to dialogue with others respectfully and reasonably. 

http://www.thinkingchristian.net/2012/03/reason-rally-organizer-says-no-dialogue/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:%20thinkingchristian/tomg%20%28Thinking%20Christian%29

also note in David’s response that the point of the reason rally is not to have a (reasonable) dialogue with Christians, but is instead a chance to “have fun with like-minded individuals” and to have some “well deserved enjoyment.”  doesn’t sound like the point is to liberate those who are suffering at the hands of religion, but is rather a chance to gather with other  like-minded individuals and enjoy a well deserved rally.

The reasonrally.org website itself said similar: “The purpose of this particular rally will be to advance secularism (in the broadest sense of the word) in society.” (http://www.reasonrally.org/about/ accessed 3/22/12)  Later down the same page the three thing they hope to achieve by doing this rally are 1) to encourage attendees to “come out of the closet as secular Americans” 2) to dispel stereotypes about non-theists, and 3) to achieve legislative equality.  I didn’t see anything about lessening the suffering of those who suffer from religious intolerance etc.

I am not against the reason rally at all.  Christians have rallies and gatherings all the time.  They are a great opportunity to get together and fellowship with like-minded individuals.  I get that and think it is a good thing.  So I say go ahead, have fun, gather with like-minded individuals, promote secularism, fight for equality (I think equality for all persons, gay, straight bi, transgender, secular, whatever, is a good thing) sing, dance, have a merry old time, but don’t be naive enough  to think that by gathering in DC and spreading awareness of and promoting secularism that you are actually doing something to help those who are suffering at the hands of religion.  Those people are suffering in regardless of whether the world knows about your secularism.  Awareness that there are people who hold know religious beliefs doesn’t actually alleviate the sort of suffering described in this post.  Sure, it may make you feel better about being an open atheist, but how does it prevent Sally from dying of cancer because her parents decided to pray instead of doing Chemo? 

The only aspect that could possibly alleviate suffering is you achieved some sort of legislative equality, thereby allowing more seculars to run for office, but even then you have to get elected, and there seems to be much large amounts of those who believe in some sort of a god than there are seculars, so you would still have to get elected.  the point is, that is a long and arduous road, that doesn’t promise much if any fruit. 

If you can actually do some good for anyone who is suffering as a result of misguided religious belief through this rally, I say go for it.  More power to you. That being said, I don’t see that as the main or even secondary point of this rally, and  I will take a bit of advice from the freethinkers, and remain skeptical.

in search of Truth,

Derek Brent.

Damit Derek,you sound so reasonable,how annoying,next thing you know youll be offering to run a kids club or serve drinks or somthing

Ndonnan, I have raised a specific objection to a particular point in the statement. You may agree or disagree, but I haven’t told anyone they have to save anything. Nor have I invoked any call to dogma.

1) to encourage attendees to “come out of the closet as secular Americans” 2) to dispel stereotypes about non-theists, and 3) to achieve legislative equality. =  lessening the suffering of those who suffer from religious intolerance

Derek, is it too much to hope that such an event can show that atheists are NOT the morally bankrupt, evil beings that many Christians have been long told we are? And that there is thus a chance that someday Christians could vote for an atheist based on their qualifications rather than how they spend Sunday morning? I think that would do a lot of good

I agree, especially because the word “primitive” has been used to dehumanize so many groups of people throughout the course of human history. Religious belief is not based on stupidity (and only partly on ignorance), and religious people are not less “advanced” than atheists…most of them are merely indoctrinated from their childhood (I’m still struggling with the effects of my childhood indoctrination) or completely insulated from the real world by the Christian bubble.

The beliefs themselves may be silly and irrational, but the people still deserve respect. And nobody should be called “primitive”.

You’re conflating the rejection of superstitious beliefs with the
devaluation of individual human beings. I’d like to think that this is a
a genuine mistake rather than an instance of intellectual dishonesty.

In any event, the promotion of reason over superstitious and, indeed,
primitive, methods of understanding the universe in no way represents a
devaluation of our fellow humans. Rather, the pursuit of reason permits
us to more fully realize our true potential and value, on an individual
level as well as in a broader social context.

If you still feel that the usage of “primitive” is inappropriate in
this situation, I’d encourage you to consider the Miriam Webster
definition of the term:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/primitive

No, it is not too much to hope to improve the image of seculars in the eyes of others. I that is one of the goals that is/may be achievable from this rally. Personally, I don’t think people should be labeled or are morally bankrupt, wicked, evil, etc. simply because they are secular, and people should not be labeled nor are they good, righteous, holy, etc. simply because they are Christians

I tell ya what. When Christians stop tell atheists we should be raping and pillaging and that we have no morals and that we’re all going to hell, we’ll quit calling them primitives.

 I was in the process of writing a lengthy response to the comments you just addressed (very well) here.
Bravo. 🙂

 you are right, that does lessen the suffering of some who suffer from religious intolerance, but I acknowledge this in my comment, and point out that this is not the type of suffering mentioned by Fyfe in the original post.  I agree that trying to lesson the suffering of seculars from religious intolerance because they are non-believers is a good thing to promote, but that kind of emotional suffering is nothing compared to the suffering that Fyfe is talking about with honor killings, and children dying from easily treatable disease because the parents want to pray and not use medicine, which is not being addressed by this rally.  that was my only point there.

Secondly, There is plenty of intolerance on both sides of this discussion which needs to be eliminated.  I admit that there are Christians who are intolerant and hateful towards non-believers, but there is just as much hate and intolerance coming from seculars towards those who are non-believers.  I think the intolerance on both sides needs to be eliminated, not just coming from one way.

 Did you not see the “Plan Your Own Reason Rally” post from March 19th?

I did not interpret that as anyone saying that people couldn’t complain about alt-med.

No, reducing suffering is not a bad thing. I simply do not see how promoting secularism at a rally saves lives. Sure, it may resuce the suffering of those who are berated for their lack of religion, but like I have said elsewhere in these comments, there is suffering and intolerance from the secular side of the fence as well.

 Yes.

Tu Quoque for the win.