Christian Right Leader: Secularists Are Bullies… Punch Them in the Mouth

You know all those leftist secularist activists who preach messages of love and equality and inclusion?

Matt Barber of the group Liberty Counsel believes the victimized Christians ought to punch them in the mouth. (Metaphorically, of course. Just metaphorically…)

They’re bullies. And we know that we people stand up to the bully on the playground — the bully on the playground intimidates, that’s what he does, intimidates people into silence, into fear, into avoiding the bully. And oftentimes the bully is the paper tiger and when the righteous individual who is being bullied defends his or herself and punches the bully in the mouth, guess what, the bully more times than not has a glass jaw, falls down and then everyone on the playground says “whoa, the bully was a weakling after all.”

That’s the secularist left. The secularist left are bullies. They try to bully and intimidate and push religious intolerance and religious bigotry on everyone else.

Yes, how dare we?! With our kindness and compassion for all people… don’t we know that we’re preventing Christians from acting out on their homophobia?!

(via RightWingWatch — Thanks to Silo for the link!)

About Hemant Mehta

Hemant Mehta is the editor of Friendly Atheist, appears on the Atheist Voice channel on YouTube, and co-hosts the uniquely-named Friendly Atheist Podcast. You can read much more about him here.

  • http://twitter.com/gdeichen Gavin Deichen

    Where’s the fear? Where’s the silence? Are there really religious people out there who are afraid to speak because of secularists?

    • Sindigo

      Haven’t you noticed all the crosses that have been replaced with fish, all the dog-collars that have been hidden, the churches that have been re-branded as community centres, the Sunday services that have been held in secret and the public displays of prayer on sports fields that have suddenly diappeared? No, of course not. Because it hasn’t happened.

  • Bananafaced

    Who is REALLY the bully??

  • RevWubby

    Wow, projecting 2 of his own qualities onto others at the same time.  Quite a feat.

    Wanting to force his private agenda on others, and acting as a bully by willing to use violence. (oh right, “metaphorically”)

    Not only does he not know anything about secularist, he doesn’t know anything about bullies.  The Hollywood story of the “weak bully” is a myth.  The truth is that most bullies are actually completely capable of physical violence. 

  • hoverFrog

    We bully because there are more of us and we’ve got all the political power and popular support.

    That’s right isn’t it?

  • Marguerite

    Yes, I’m sure all those brave but persecuted Christians dream of a day when they can celebrate Christmas and Easter freely, and perhaps even see an acknowledgement of their high holy days in a store or two. Until then, they’ll just have to continue to fight the good fight for religious freedom against the leftist secularists who are so successfully oppressing their religion.

  • NickDB

    But but it’s not bullying when the Jesus fans do it, it’s saving your mortal soul. Which makes it completely ok then

    /s for those that didn’t get it.

  • Alessia Lane

    WWJP?  Who Would Jesus Punch?

  • http://heretichusband.blogspot.com/ Heretic Husband

    Any American Christian who thinks they are “persecuted” should be air dropped into a country where Christianity is illegal with nothing but a bible and a t-shirt that says “I love Jesus”.  I think the experience would be quite eye opening.

    • Blz Bob

      That would be a season of Survivor I would watch.

      • http://dogmabytes.com/ C Peterson

         It would be a short season.

        • http://www.facebook.com/ojspires Oliver Spires

           And ironically (and tragically) titled

    • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

      A bible and a t-shirt. No pants?

    • Ndonnan

      Ha ha along with an athiest wearing a t-shirt with” Mohammed  was a pedophile”and see who gets persecuted the most,and whist you have their attention why not sugest seperating mosque from state and remove their religious symbols from public places, it would be a laugh.lol

  • jdm8

    Using violence (even metaphorically) to protect one’s Christian Privilege is hardly standing up for religious freedoms.

    Also, few have “bloodied” the nose of secularists metaphorically/legally, because most of the cases are won by the secularists.  It’s the secularists that are generally trying to stop or roll back religious control of government or trying to use government to push a religious agenda.

  • ortcutt

    The racists said the same thing about the Civil Rights Movement.  “How dare these NAACP bullies come in here and force integration.  We’re just preserving the Southern Way of Life.”  It was BS then and it’s BS now. 

  • Baby_Raptor

    So..Is he advocating that Christian kids who bully kids who seem gay should be punched? After all, they’re bullying…

  • http://www.zazzle.com/godless_monsters The Godless Monster

    Some smug jackass will label this as a “Godwin”, but the Nazis went out of their way to portray the German people as being oppressed prior to their takeover of the country. State it often enough and the morons that make up the majority of the population will start to believe it. Besides, who doesn’t want to see themselves as part of a heroic underdog movement? American Christians has developed an entire persecution mythos that isn’t going to go away with mere argument. They’re itching for a fight…

    • http://www.zazzle.com/godless_monsters Admin

       excuse the typos…long night with a two week old baby…

      • Babildgaard

        The german people were oppressed before the National Socialist party took over. Just because the Nazis did atrocious things doesnt mean you can lump them in to wherever you feel like to try and make a point.

        • http://dogmabytes.com/ C Peterson

          Except, it’s a good point. It’s not a question of whether the Germans were oppressed, but of the way that their government created a false belief that their culture was under attack, and used that fake persecution as a tool to manipulate the population. This is exactly what these Christian demagogues are attempting to do, pretending there is some persecution that must be defended against.

          • Babildgaard

            It wasnt a false belief either. Their culture was under attack by Austrians, the french monarch, and the jewish media. They may have used a false flag attack to rally the people enough to do awful things but they hardly misrepresented the very real attack on the german nation as a whole. Terrible example, terrible understanding of history.

            • http://dogmabytes.com/ C Peterson

              I’d say you are operating under some sort of revisionist history. The German culture was not “under attack” by any of those things. Maybe you think that American culture is “under attack” by the secular movement? Or by the invasion of foreign cultures via immigration?

              Cultures are seldom (if ever) under attack. They do change, of course… by the will of the people. Only the most pathologically conservative mind could consider that change an “attack”.

            • Azel

              You might need to check your history: at the time we’re speaking about (roughly from 1925 to 1945), France wasn’t a monarchy since more than 75 years (1848, end of the July Monarchy) and Austria was struggling to rebuild itself after the first world war…by the way, the nazi party was a force of social unrest in Austria, culminating with the Anschluss. As for the “attacks” of the jewish media, can’t say I blame them after the Kristallnacht.

        • http://www.zazzle.com/godless_monsters The Godless Monster

           Brilliant, sheer genius. So… how do you know that I “lump them in to wherever (I) feel like to try and make a point”? Do you have evidence of this alleged tendency of mine? And who are you, the guardian/gatekeeper of all things Nazi?
          I can do or say whatever I want to try and make a point …as long as it’s within the law. Who’s going to stop me? You?
          I’m more than aware of what the German people went through before the Nazi takeover. Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back while declaring yourself as some sort of expert in Teutonic asshattery, because you apparently don’t know much at all. 

  • Fsq

    These fucking people lie so big and so often I think they actually believe the bullshit they espouse.

    Yes, Christians are so persecuted. How dare we try to remove their special treatment. I mean, what with them getting Christmas breaks, Easter breaks, them trying to co opt. Thanksgiving an a religious holiday etc etc etc

    These fucking idiots make black white, le right, and down up.

    I am so sick of their hypocrisy and lies.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_RPPWVLMFKJ7QCHLEVQAR5GSL5M momma J

      Wow. Thanks for the R-rated rant. And you are supposed to be “good without God” What is good about this rant?

      • Fsq

        Hey, no problem. I’m fucking glad I can fucking help with the fucking Jesus problem.

        Fuck, it is so fucking nice to get some positive fucking feedback from a delicate flower fucking Christian.

        Anyway, thanks the fuck a lot for the fucking words.

        I guess now I can fucking lok forward to a fucking punch in the fucking jaw because my foul fucking language has upset the natural fucking balance of the fucking Christina world.

        Fuck me up the ass and call me frank, I fucked it all up for everyone again.

        • http://www.zazzle.com/atheist_tees The Godless Monster

           Fuckin’ eh

      • http://twitter.com/enuma enuma

        Any criticism pertaining to the actual content of what he said, or are you just gonna stick with clutching at your pearls?

      • Ndonnan

        ,go onHeh momma Fsp just needs a hug,go on,hugs and xxx from mom Fs

  • Rwlawoffice

    I viewed the clip and unless I missed it he never said that Christians were being persecuted. What he did say that was the secular left act like bullies when they push religious intolerance and that Christians should stand up to them.  Calling this a claim that Christians are being  persecuted sounds like projection.

    And  if you deny that the Freedom From Religion Foundation and other organizations like them don’t use the tactics of a bully then you are intentionally being naive.  When they contact a school district or a city council and tell them do as we want or we will sue you and it will cost you alot of money, they are bullying that district or council to do as they want. It doesn’t  matter if you agree with what the bully wants. That doesn’t change the actions.

    • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

      Citizen: “No, officer. I refuse to speak as is my right, and if you continue to threaten me I’ll see you in civil court.”

      Police Officer: “Stop being a bully!”

      • Rwlawoffice

        Actually in reverse:

         Police Officer- Move because I want you too.

        Citizen: But I have the right to stand here

        Police office- Move or I will arrest you. Even if I am wrong it will cost you alot of money to prove it.

        Citizen- Stop being a bully!

        • Fsq

          Jesus Crotch-Sniffing Christ you are an blathering idiot.

          You are the type who would blame the woman for getting raped because she was dressed too provocatively.

          Or better, defend the actions of the priest/pedophiles, because like how dare those altar boys look so scrumptious and sexy. It is their fault they got buggered.

          • Rwlawoffice

            Your ignorance is only surpassed by your crude language. Just because somebody claims it is illegal doesn’t mean it is but when they use the you better not fight it because it will cost alot of money to defend yourself- you are being a bully. 

            I hope that isn’t too deep for you.

            • Fsq

              (picture my finger solidly up my left nose)

              Ahhh duuhhhhhhh…..yep…..nuthin but eegnorants hear..l.derr huh duhhhhhhh….

              I find it highly amusing it is you calling someone else ignorant.

              Get your head out of Jesus’s buttcrack, put down the hook of myths and let rationality and logic enter your life.

              Who hurt you to cause you to lose your relationship with logic?

              You can have a personal relationship with intellect and logic you know.

          • Ndonnan

            Someone still needs a hug,now off to bed,your getting grumpy

            • Fsq

              You act as though being grumpy or angry is a bad thing. It isn’t.

              And when dumbasses try to put a spin othe obvious call for violence against those who speak out against Christian bias you damn right I am grumpy.

              How do you know when a Christian is lying to you?

              Their lips are moving.

              • Ndonnan

                Ask your boyfriend if its ok, heh how do you know when an athiest is lying, they are typing

        • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

          Wow! Did anybody see that, that whatever it was that went over Rwlawoffice’s head with afterburners on? Sure was fast!

    • Patterrssonn

      So fighting to stop illegal activity is now bullying. Thanks for clearing that up RW.

      • Rwlawoffice

        It isn’t always illegal that is the point.  If you look at the website for FFRF they have as many losses as they do victories.  But they threaten with the cost of a lawsuit.  I see it here all the time whenever there is an issue about the First Amendment.  

        • http://dogmabytes.com/ C Peterson

          Actually, the FFRF never really has a loss. When they lose a suit, the status quo prevails. When they win, there is an advancement in secularization of government. So there is always a net gain. Nothing they do results in moving backwards.

          • Rwlawoffice

            I like that spin. You should be a politician.  When the FFRF files a lawsuit saying something is illegal and the court says they are wrong and dismisses the suit, that is a loss by any standard. 

            • http://dogmabytes.com/ C Peterson

              Ah, the mind of the religionist shows itself again… by “any standard”. No room for doubt, no gray areas. Black and white, right and wrong. Sigh…

              • Rwlawoffice

                 I apologize.  I should have said legal standard.  You are right I am sure the FFRF would view a dismissal as a victory by at least raising the issue.

    • Edmond

      Isn’t that what YOU do, as a lawyer?  Tell people to quit it or we’ll sue?  Isn’t that basically what ALL litigation is?

      Isn’t it OK for a legal firm (or an activist organization, or an individual…) to identify injustice, call for it to stop, and then progress to legal action when it doesn’t?  Or is it only OK for those who aren’t “secularist leftists”?

      What matters is what is being demanded.  If someone demands your milk money, that’s bullying.

      But if someone demands that public schools stop endorsing Christianity through administration-led prayer or banners, or that the government recognize marriage equality despite religious opposition, that’s NOT bullying.  Public schools, and our secular government, are not SUPPOSED to be sanctioning and supporting religion, and religious exclusion.  It’s perfectly FINE to demand that they return to a religion-neutral stance for the benefit of ALL students and citizens.

      That’s how it SHOULD be.  There’s nothing wrong with demanding that these government institutions operate the way they’re supposed to.  And threats of litigation are perfectly acceptable as a means of ensuring that they obey the law.

      • Rwlawoffice

        So by your definition, if you agree with the cause, its not bullying. 

        • Edmond

          Upholding the law is not a “cause”.

        • Coyotenose

           And by your definition, it’s only bullying if YOU are the poor overwhelmingly privileged victim who has just been informed that everything doesn’t belong to him.

  • E95858

    quick point of clarification.  In your title, you say “secularists are bullies.”  However, he is ranting about the secular left.   Not all secularists are leftists. 

    • E95858

       a more appropriate title might be, ”
      Christian Right Leader:  The secularist left Are Bullies… Punch Them in the Mouth”

    • Ndonnan

      Good point and a large % of christians wouldnt be conservative right either

  • Corey

    The Sermon On The Mount did not spread Christianity, violence did.

  • Corey

    ps: i dont own a gun and i dont like in Fla, but can i do something about this man intimidating me? should i buy a gun and move to a state where that is legal and hope i bump into him or stalk him until i find him? ironically, the good old fear of the gay person has been used in freeing killers, so those that support freeing these killers, usually conservative christians, shouldnt thay support me in my idea of stalkin someone like this fool then shooting him because he scares me?

    • http://www.zazzle.com/godless_monsters The Godless Monster

       No, because you wouldn’t be the right type of gun owner. You’d be like me…their worst nightmare…a gun toting atheist.

      • Ndonnan

        That baby woke you up didnt he/she???

        • http://www.zazzle.com/atheist_tees The Godless Monster

           I’ll respond once to your (sarcastic?) query and leave it at that. You can have the last word, if you’re into that sort of thing.
          Here’s the deal…
           Fundie conservatives in the United States have shown that they are ALL for freedom of religion and expression as long as it is expressly Christian in nature. Note the number of municipalities that have opted to allow no groups to participate in holiday displays once atheist/secularist groups started petitioning for equal rights. Note the recent case in which a school administration decided to “review” its policy of allowing third parties to set out religious material (Bibles) in the school office for kids to pick up once a Wiccan started leaving Wiccan literature there. Time and time again, the religious right has demonstrated their hypocrisy when it comes to defense of rights established in the United States Constitution. This isn’t news, so my next point shouldn’t come as a surprise.
          Trust me buddy, if and when secularists start to even THINK about openly discussing defensively arming themselves, you’ll see quite a few Christian 2nd Amendment advocates making noises about it. They’re all for gun ownership as long as it’s the right type of folks carrying the guns. God fearing, Christian folks.
          Human nature is what it is.
          The left and the right have been taking this country on a bumpy ride for the last 50 years and I for one, am sick and tired of it.

          • Rwlawoffice

             I agree with you. I do not think that the immediate response of Christians when others want to pass out or display information from other religions is to stop all displays.  Instead they should welcome other religious expression.  I would even include secular information, not under the guise of religious expression since they claim it  is not a religion but under a freedom of expression. If the choice is to have the Christian message on display along with other messages, I am confident enough in my faith to stand the competition. 

          • Ndonnan

            I was actually wondering what you were doing up at that time at night,thus the baby comment,why this is sarcastic i dont know

            • http://www.zazzle.com/godless_monsters The Godless Monster

               Sorry, long night. ended up taking the boy to the ER this morning. All’s good…just no sleep.

              • Ndonnan

                its cool,heh they just get better and better

                • http://www.zazzle.com/atheist_tees The Godless Monster

                   Believe me…I know. This is my second marriage & third child for me, her first. My first two from my previous marriage are in college. :-)

  • TiltedHorizon

    Nothing new from Matt Barber, he really likes using violent imagery.  He painted the same image in 2010 about the Southern Poverty Law Center…
    “Sometimes the most effective way to deal with a bully is to simply pop
    him in the chops. While it may not shut him up entirely, it usually
    gives him pause before he resumes flapping his toxic jaws. It also has
    the effect of showing the other kids in the schoolyard that they have
    nothing to fear. Though the bully struts about projecting the tough-guy
    image, he’s typically the most insecure pansy on the block.”
    (http://www.wnd.com/2010/12/241721/)

    Playing the role of playground ‘hero’ is a recurring fantasy. This is why bullying must be stopped, someone appears to have kicked sand in Matt’s eyes while he played in the sandbox.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_RPPWVLMFKJ7QCHLEVQAR5GSL5M momma J

      Agreed. He does seem to play the victim a bit too much here for my tastes. I don’t think anyone needs to bully or fight back or anything like that. Advise for Matt: read the Bible. If a bully intimidates you, ignore them. If he punches you, turn the other cheek. The only physical fight that I’ve been in the 6th grade bully (he should have been in 8th grade) saw that I was chasing down a basketball that went his direction. He waited until it got near him, kicked the ball away from me, fronted me and the proceeded to punch me in the jaw like 5-6 times. I really didn’t know how to respond when he pulled out. Luckily for me I didn’t grow up being a pansy. I took his punches, asked him if he was done yet, grabbed the ball and ran off to tell the teacher with a witness in tow. 

      The Bible that Matt says he is a student of tells us to turn the other cheek. No matter how mad a bully, literal or metaphorical, makes you. C’mon Matt do your homework and take a deep breath. Relax there buddy!

      FYI the bully is no serving time in prison. What a cool guy he turned out to be!

    • Rwlawoffice

      Violent imagery is something that the Southern Poverty Law Center knows all too well, as when it calls groups that they don’t agree with called hate groups.

      • TiltedHorizon

        So your response to Matt’s use of violent metaphors is to suggest the SPLC started it?

        Please explain how the labeling of ‘hate group’ is akin to ‘violence’ in the same way as playground vigilantism.

        • Rwlawoffice

           The way to handle a bully is to stand up to them and not back down. When the SPLC calls a group a “hate group” they do so to try to make everything they say hate speech and to intimidate them just a bully would. So the metaphor used by Barber is appropriate.

          • TiltedHorizon

            The question was… how is applying the label of “hate group” akin to violence?

            • Rwlawoffice

               It implies that the other group is engaged in violent activities.  For example a hate crime is not just a set of different ideas, it is used when there has been violence that is motivated by racial or gender hate. The labeling of certain groups by the SPLC as hate groups is used to invoke that same feeling.  So it lumps an organization like the Family Research Institute  with Neo Nazi groups and the Ku Klux Klan

      • Fsq

        You have got to be kidding me?

        When was the last time you heard anyone from the SPLC tell the SPLC members to bomb an abortion clinic, punch a catholic, or bully heterosexual kids in school for their beliefs?

        You are a frightening “human”. Thing is though, what is most chilling is that you aren’t alone in your delusions. You and your ilk make the world a worse place by mere existence.

        You are an oxygen thief.

        • Rwlawoffice

           You truly are not very bright. But if you are going to be stupid you should at least be polite. 

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_RPPWVLMFKJ7QCHLEVQAR5GSL5M momma J

    If the secularist left has kindness and compassion towards all people, then why do I get cussed at and called names just because people know I am a Christian?

    • Drakk

      Because you believe in things which aren’t true? (/snark)

      Consider those events carefully – were they calling you those names personally, or using them to refer to your beliefs?

      • Rwlawoffice

        Atheists beliefs make them all lying hypocrites. They believe in things that aren’t true so that gives us the right to treat them as idiots and mock them.  Does that sound a little more personal in reverse? 

        I really am amused by the new atheist attempt to be kind when they put down Christians by saying “its not you, its what you believe that I am putting down”  “If you believe that you must be an idiot but I am only talking about your beliefs, not you.” It doesn’t work.  People identify themselves or get identified through their beliefs.

        Yet at the same time atheists want to get away with this, they scream and holler when a Christian says that they can hate the sin but love the sinner. It is hypocritical to try and have it both ways.    

        • TiltedHorizon

          ” I really am amused by the new atheist attempt to be kind when they put
          down Christians by saying “its not you, its what you believe that I am
          putting down” ”

          “It is hypocritical to try and have it both ways.”

          It’s not hypocritical, I want the same rights you have, that is, to openly hate behavior and or belief, but not the individual. What? You don’t like it? Pot, meet Kettle.

          • Rwlawoffice

             What is hypocritical is saying it is not an attack on the person when you are criticizing their beliefs and at the same time calling it an attack on you as a person when another is criticizing your behaviors. 

            If that is what you want then I would hope you do not get upset when a Christian says I hate the sin but I love the sinner. That is not the response I normally see here.

            • TiltedHorizon

              “If that is what you want then I would hope you do not get upset when a Christian says I hate the sin but I love the sinner”

              Why would I get upset? At this point I have heard it from Christians so many times I am desensitized. But if I say, “I don’t hate the Believer, just the Belief” in response, I typically get a variation of your reply. :) And just like that, Pot’s eyes lock on Kettle, seeing the black for the first time.

            • Fsq

              Jesus Ass-Licking Christ, 

              how can you believe what you say? Seriously….did you have a botched lobotomy a few years ago or what?

              You are a vile person. And you just FINALLY said what we all suspected for so long, which is YOU ARE LYIng AND FULL OF SHIT.

              A few weeks back I asked you why you were here and you gave a faux-polite, well rehearsed diatribe of “wanting to learn, be kind etc….” yet here it is – you believe we are liars and thieves. Yet, the evidence does not bear this out; the evidence does show a consistent pattern of deceit, criminal behavior and downright vileness from the christians – especially catholics.

              You don’t even live up to the rule-book you so vigorously defend. How can any christian be trusted?

              As said before, how can you tell when a christian is lying to you?

              Their lips are moving.

              • Rwlawoffice

                 Honestly you should read the post before you respond. 

              • AnonymousSam

                Honestly, Fsq, I’m typically on the atheist side, but I wish you’d just shut the fuck up. You are the Conservative Christian of the atheist community. What a fucking accomplishment.

                • Ndonnan

                  Heh its ok Sam,we can cope,we do know hes a bit out there.He might have Asburgers or something,or be all alone with the computer as his link to the outside world.Either way its ok

                • Coyotenose

                   Using social disorders for cheap insults. Classy.

        • http://www.zazzle.com/atheist_tees The Godless Monster

          I personally don’t care if the whole world is theist and stays that way, as long as people leave me alone. If activist atheists/new atheists were more concerned with preserving/protecting our rights than with making fun of those who believe in deities, I think we’d have far less conflict. If fundies were more concerned with leading their own flocks than with messing with the rest of us, there would be far less conflict. Call me crazy.
          Yes, I believe that the religious are deluded, but does that make them stupid? I was religious. Does that mean I was stupid? If so, how was I “cured” of my stupidity? I’ve seen plenty of atheists that I’d say qualify as bona fide idiots.
          Also, there are many ethnic atheist Jews who openly identify as “secular Jews” or “cultural Jews”. Why is it that atheists rarely (if ever) give them a hard time? I was raised both Muslim and Christian and consider myself to be culturally Christian (in some aspects at least), but nonetheless a committed, hardcore atheist. It’s not necessary for any of us to be pigeonholed into this or that category. In fact, it’s wrong.
          I’d fight to the death to defend your right to religious freedom. I’d also fight to the death to defend my right to be free of religious influence in my personal life, my taxpayer funded schools and my government.
          Extremists from both sides have really made a mess of things. The Consitution is neither left  nor right in it’s proscriptions or permissions and it would behoove us ALL to keep that first and foremost in our minds.

          • Ndonnan

            Well said

        • Edmond

          Atheists say this IN RESPONSE to Christians, who have ALWAYS been saying it.  WE didn’t invent the phrase “hate the sin, love the sinner”.  We already KNOW it doesn’t work.  It’s a sarcastic response to show you how empty the expression is.

          For one thing, when it comes to immoral or harmful acts, we are concerned with CRIME, not “sin”.  Many things that Christians consider “sin” are NOT crimes, and should not merit hate, nor ANY negative response.

          Homosexuals are free, consenting adults.  It’s BLATANTLY RIDICULOUS for the Christian position to “hate” what we do, regardless of how they attempt to separate this from hating homosexuals themselves (a failed endeavor).  There isn’t any reason for there to even BE a Christian position on homosexuality.  We have not asked for Christian opinion on how we live our lives.  It does not affect you.  Unless someone is trying to MAKE you gay, your position should be “consenting adults can do as they wish, provided they aren’t harming anyone, and we Christians should not involve ourselves”.

          Instead, Christians DO involve themselves, telling private grown citizens that they’re doing something “wrong” when they aren’t at all.  This only FEEDS the social stigma against gay people.  It works AGAINST “hate the sin, love the sinner” by actually FOSTERING hatred against gay people.

          If you don’t want to hear “hate the belief, love the believer” anymore, then maybe you should spread the word among fellow Christians that “hate the sin, love the sinner” needs to be dropped as well.  We shouldn’t be concerned with “sins” or “sinners”.  We should focus on crimes and criminals.  If people aren’t committing crimes, then it isn’t your PLACE to tell them that there’s anything wrong with their behavior.

          People identify themselves in a LOT of different ways.  The beliefs they hold are one, and their sexuality is another.  The sexuality between consenting adults doesn’t need your hate, or approval.  The only opinion you need of it is whether it’s for you or not.

          But beliefs CAN be questioned, and subjected to logical exploration, and compared against reality.  When they’re found to be lacking, that can be pointed out and discussed.  It should be done respectfully, you’re right about that, but there comes a limit to the magic and myth that can be respected.  Especially when it’s used as fodder for mistreating people who have done no wrong.

          • Fsq

            Well said Edmond. Well said.

          • Rwlawoffice

             The phrase used by Christians if used sincerely is not sarcasm.  It is a reflection of how God loves us- God hates sin, but he loves the sinner. We are taught to do the same.
             
            Not all sins are crimes- sins include anger, hatred, adultery, pride, etc.. 

            Just as you would say that homosexual behavior is not a sin or something that you would consider immoral, I am entitled to my belief that it is.  If you asked me that is what I would tell you. But just because you think it is moral, why do I have to agree?

            I agree that beliefs can be questioned and subjected to investigation and exploration. I also agree that belief in God is founded on reality.  You obviously don’t and that is your provocative.

            I agree that all discussions should be conducted respectfully  ( point obviously missed by Fsq), but what gives you the say on when the belief you don’t believe in is to the point that it can be mocked and ridiculed like Dawkins suggested at the Reason Rally?  

            • Edmond

              Sigh.  Christianity.  Punishing humans for being human.

              There’s something inherently GROSS about your list of “sins”.  Adultery is the ONLY one that is necessarily a harmful act against another person (maybe there are better ones hidden in your “etc”?).  Anger, hatred, and pride are EMOTIONS.  Everyone feels them, no one is “flawed” for feeling them, and no one should feel like there’s some mysterious father figure who’s “disappointed” in them for it.  Any one of these emotions can lead to very positive actions.  This is what I meant by some “sins” meriting NO negative reaction.  Christians frown on the most BIZARRE things.

              If you want to tag homosexuality with the “label” immoral, you need to explain WHY it’s immoral.  “Because god said so” is NOT an explanation.  Who does it harm?  Why is it wrong for the people who feel same-sex desire?  Why ARE there people with same-sex desire, and what are they supposed to do about companionship, couplehood, love and sex?

              Why is it “immoral” for my to guide my own life as I see fit, but it’s “moral” for Christians to interfere and place bans on my life?  By what standards do you judge something “moral” or “immoral”?

              As for when a belief may be mocked or ridiculed, the answer is: anytime.  There remains no law on mocking or ridiculing beliefs.  The public forum is, and always will be, wide open for this, for both me AND you.  Don’t just EXPECT respect for your beliefs.  If you want them to be respected, then first be sure that you HOLD beliefs which MERIT respect, beliefs which can be explained logically and supported by evidence.  You can’t be all THAT surprised when you’re knocked for believing stories about talking animals, or impossible boat rides through impossible world-wide floods.

              But adults being free to make choices with other free adults?  This is neither immoral nor mockable.  It is a right that EVERY human expects.  There’s going to be a real problem every time someone jumps up and says that we’re immoral for pursuing that freedom.

              • Rwlawoffice

                You can define your morality anyway you want, as will I.  I will not disrespect you for the beliefs you hold but nor will I agree that they are equally moral by lowering my standards on what I believe to be moral.

                What makes your standard of morality the correct one? By that I mean, why is “free adults making choices with free adults” the only correct standard by which to judge morality? Just because you don’t think that harms anyone or society as a whole others may think otherwise.

                All you are really saying is that relative morality is ok and that everyone should determine morality for themselves but you want to place the limits on where those choices cause harm to others or society as a whole.  I believe that there is an objective morality that is more important then relative morality based upon individual choices.

                • Coyotenose

                  “God’s Word” equates to “Because I said so”, which is the very definition of subjective morality. Please stop lying.

                • Edmond

                  You can believe that if you want, of course, but I wonder if you truly do.  You opened that post by saying that, like me, you will define morality “any way you want”.

                  This is what everyone does.  If there were an “objective” morality, which was universal for everyone, then everyone would agree on what it is.  But even among Christians there is no consensus on what this morality should be.  If the god of Christianity were the source of this “objective” morality, then we should expect that every Christian would give a matching description of it.  It’s hard enough to find TWO Christians who agree on what all of these moral points are.  Everyone has their own ideas.  Even Christians.

                  The ONLY way to develop a common system of morality is to form societies, and see what works.  As members of society interact, certain actions will cause undesirable results.  These actions come to be called “immoral”.  Actions like killing or violence, theft, and lying.  These are fairly common morals across all cultures, because few societies would succeed if these things weren’t frowned on.

                  But more detailed morals, concerning more “grey” areas, will change depending on the culture, and depending on the century.  They don’t reflect an “objective” morality that rigidly never adapts with culture, they refect a morality that is defined by the populace, and shifts with public opinion.

                  I am saying that morality is relative, but I am NOT saying (nor have I ever said) that everyone should define morality for themselves.  I said that people should be free to guide their LIVES for themselves.

                  Can you support a morality where Christians are given the authority to tell non-Christians how to live?  If I’m gay, and I enjoy being gay, and this is how I want to live, is there something in this “objective” morality of yours which suggests that it’s moral for Christians to attempt to enforce legislation which makes my life more difficult, or which bans certain actions that other free citizens enjoy?

                  You asked me, what makes my morality the “correct” one.  The only thing “correct” about it is that it agrees with our national laws that adults may live freely without answering to anyone else, provided they aren’t committing crimes.  At least when I believe something is “immoral”, I’m able to explain why.  I can give detailed reasons why it’s bad.  I’ve been debating the issue of homosexuality with Christians for YEARS, and I’ve YET to hear a cogent explanation for what’s “morally wrong” with homosexuality.

                  But the question works for you, too:  What makes YOUR morality the “correct” one?  Your own claims that it came from a supernatural being or realm?  Is that how we judge things to be “correct”, their level of supernaturalism?  What puts your claims ahead of those of other religions?  How can we investigate your claims and confirm that you’re right?  What information do we have about these supernatural elements, and how does it help us infer an “objective” morality?

                  And most importantly, why don’t ALL people within your religion agree with you 100% on every point of morality?  Are you the ONLY Christian who’s gotten it right?  Or are you all simply striving to find a common understanding of morality which applies to our modern world, like the rest of us?

            • Coyotenose

               Nice how you had to ignore the entire point on your way to arguing that it’s okay for you to be insulting, but not for other people.

        • Ndonnan

          If Christians are bigots because they dis agree with somthing ,dosent that make athiests anti-christian bigots???

          • Coyotenose

            If anti-Semites are bigots because they disagree with Jews having rights, doesn’t that makes Jews anti-anti-Semite bigots?

            God, thinking is so HARD.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1019365643 John J. Ronald

    “Turn the other cheek??  Yeah, fuck that.”  :-D

  • anonymous

    Holy fuck!  This guy was one of my parent’s best friends in law school.  I am not kidding.  I met him once.

    (Bonus fun fact: I also happen to be privy to know that he has a child out of wedlock from his teens.  OOPS.)

    • anonymous

      One more thing: he used to be a heavyweight boxer.  Gives “punch them in the mouth” a whole new meaning.

  • Lilger

    well i don’t know how you feel Christians are being bullied. me as a non believer live with bulling ridicule, and intolerance more then daily. but i don’t hold all theist responsible, but the the person doing it.


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