Opponents of Marriage Equality Are Pretending To Be Proponents of It and Are Lying To Voters

Opponents of marriage equality have reached a new low. They have been calling voters in Washington who support marriage equality and lying to them, telling them they need to reject Ref. 74 in order to allow same-sex marriage.

Which is the exact opposite of true.

They are flat out lying to voters and saying they’re volunteering with “Citizens of Washington United for Marriage.” That organization does not exist. But it sounds a lot like Washington United for Marriage, the organization actually working to educate voters about the importance of approving Referendum 74.

How do I know this? On Sunday night, Seattle Atheists (my local group) hosted the Flying Spaghetti Monster Dinner for Marriage Equality. It was an amazing night with all donations going to Washington United for Marriage.

While we were setting up for the event, one of the early arrivals pulled me aside to let me know about a phone call he’d received. He was concerned that some of the WU4M volunteers had gotten their information very wrong because the person who called him was saying if you vote to approve Ref. 74 in Washington State, you’re voting against allowing same-sex marriage. The caller was extremely rude and woke him up with a Monday morning call… but Washington United for Marriage does not run phone banks in the mornings. It’s just about the worst time to call voters because everyone is getting ready for work and the day ahead. This was clearly a phone call from the opposition posing as supporters.

I mentioned this new deceptive tactic during our fundraising event only to hear a second person come forward with a very similar story. She said she’d answered the phone at her parents’ house and the caller was very insistent that she needed to reject Ref. 74 in order to support marriage equality.

Having participated in the Ask An Atheists Stream-A-Thon to raise money for WU4M, she was quite well educated about the referendum and told him so. But he kept pushing, telling her she was mistaken. This call also came in the morning and was about a month ago, by her best estimate.

I’m overwhelmed. I’m horrified. I knew the opposition was shady but I never would have guessed they’d stoop this low. I wish I knew more about who exactly was organizing these false calls. Are they connected with Preserve Marriage Washington, the local group working to oppose marriage equality? Or are they another group working independently? At this point, there’s really no way to know. Hopefully more people who’ve received these calls will come forward to help piece all of this together. In the meantime, I’m going to double down on volunteering at local phone banks.

One additional note: Rick Santorum is coming to town to raise money for Preserve Marriage Washington. He was in Spokane for lunch today and Bellevue for dinner on Wednesday. Anyone interested in attending to hear what falsehoods he spreads?

About Ericka M. Johnson

As a lover of science and reason, Ericka M. Johnson has an affinity for evolutionary biology and is the president of Seattle Atheists. She revels in any opportunity for a thoughtful debate on the meaning of life, the universe, and everything (especially over a pint.) Follow her on twitter @ErickaMJohnson

  • stop2wonder

    Does anyone know, if this could be proven, if it constitutes voter fraud, or is otherwise illegal?

  • Sven

    “A new low”?  This is pretty standard tactic among American conservatives.

  • Brian Macker

    … and liberals.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Scott.McElhiney Redorblack Nigelbottom

     I don’t believe any form of lie during an election is illegal with the exception of telling someone that they can’t vote when they can.

  • Arclight

    Is this not some form of electoral fraud? I’d report it to whatever agency handles elections in Washington. 

  • Dale

    Once again christians have fumbled. The only people they can fool are those with IQs lower than their waist size (including the obvious  Brian Browns, Maggie Gallaghers, Jerry Falwells and other sinful gluttons). When dealing with the educated they stand no chance at outright lying for Jeebus.

  • BeasKnees

    You’ve got to be kidding me.  Is there any way to prevent them from doing this?  

  • Neil

    That’s funny, I hear about these kinds of scams at least once or twice per national election cycle, and so far, every one I’ve heard of has been conservatives lying about propositions or repuiblicans lying about polling places and dates.  maybe yo could rpovide a littel more info….

    …..or possibly…..you wouldn’t just be yet another conservative liar on the great mountainous heap of conservative liars, would you? 

  • Neil

    pls scooze mi multpl tipos….

  • Anthrosciguy


  • Spamamander

    Patty Murray was going to be attending a function against Santorum tomorrow and I really wanted to go, but I can’t afford the gas money just now. Damn. This is just unreal though, I already had to clarify Ref 74 for my folks (it’s confusing, because the antis put forward a ref, and you wanted to vote “no” on that, but it didn’t make the ballot. Voting “yes” on 74 is to keep the current legality of SSM). It seriously sucks that the antis are using that confusion to their advantage. GRRRR.

  • Gwen

     ….and there are ways to do even that without breaking the law. Such as standing outside a polling place and asking for photo ID with the unstated implication that you cannot vote without it. The judges in PA have refused to prevent poll workers from asking for photo ID, he just said that they can’t prevent them from voting if they do not have the requested ID….how many people will be intimidated and go home. Another tactic in 37 states is to challenge people re their right to vote. Any citizen can do it and force another person to come up with photo ID to prove they are who they say they are. If they do not have their ID they can vote provisionally and have (I believe) 3 days to prove their identity or the vote is tossed. No comparing signatures. There are as many legally slimy ways to prevent a person from voting as there are slimy people who can figure out how to get around poorly written laws.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/M6W3GDHXXLJVWQP3CYUTRN653A Peter

    Washington had a law against lies during elections, but it was struck down: State of Washington v. 119 VOTE NO! COMMITTEE.

    (Courts are divided on how these laws interact with the First Amendment, similar laws have been upheld in other states.)

  • RobertoTheChi

    What a rotten thing to do! I can’t say that I am surprised though since acting like scum is par for the course with these kinds of people.

  • TnkAgn

     But it’s for the greater good of a world with Christ the King. That makes lying okay, okay?

  • Trickster Goddess

    Well, if the caller is being rude then the tactic may backfire on them. Or if the person was planning to vote against marriage, they may mistakenly vote  “Approve” instead.

  • Guest

    What is the meaning of marriage equality? Does that mean the couple must come from the same social class or that they make equal contribution financially or share same hours of house and children care. I’d rather like to marry up.

  • Lurker111

    And as to the illo, that 9th commandment was ever only a suggestion, anyway.

  • http://www.flickr.com/photos/chidy/ chicago dyke, Blonde

    you look pretty young, Ericka. so i’m glad to see you’re learning about a tactic that you’re going to see, over and over for the rest of your life, from the haters and the right wing. they do this sort of stuff *all the time.*

    cheating is pretty much the only way they can win elections anymore. they know that a growing number of people support full equality (in every respect) for homosexuals and queers. just as they use these tactics during the period in which nonwhites finally achieved civil rights and equality, they are using them today against my community. and i don’t expect them to ever stop.

    if i had to take a guess, i’d say the people paying for it are using money the Pedophile Protection Racket, or “roman catholic church” as some call it, gave them.

  • Kms2547

    Ah yes, cue the predictable hit-and-run ‘the other guys do it too’ without any comparable example.

  • http://www.last.fm/user/m6wg4bxw m6wg4bxw

    Deception aside, I thought this sort of thing on a ballot included the wording to describe its purpose. I realize that such language can sometimes be confusing, but surely we can trust people to read their ballot before voting. Am I wrong?

  • Octoberfurst

     People like Brian don’t give examples. They just like to hurl the “You guys do it too!” BS every time someone on their side is caught doing something shady.  They seem to think just saying that makes it less underhanded.

  • Missy4576

    Shame on you Dale!! but Jesus  still love u,

  • Drakk

    Christianity makes people more moral.

  • Mudskipper5

    I live in the Seattle area, and I can speak from experience that this is very confusing, and intentionally so.  The opponents of gay marriage brought this referendum forward but deliberately set it up so that it would seem that supporting the referendum would be supporting an attempt to shoot down the law signed earlier this year allowing gay marriage.  It’s not.  If you reject the referendum, you are rejecting the law.  Proponents of gay marriage need to vote “yes” in support of the referendum to allow the law to stand.

    I am embarrassed to say that I learned this the hard way.  I approached a “Reject Referendum 74″ table at a local event, thinking it was the pro-gay marriage stance and chatted with them for a while about other things while I picked up a bumper sticker and informational pamphlets.   Then I glanced at the pamphlets and stood in opened mouthed horror until my husband took me by the elbow, handed back the bumper sticker, and guided me over to the “Vote Yes on Referendum 74″ table.

    And, yes, I went back later and argued like crazy with the “Reject” table.

  • Baby_Raptor

    lol No. Nice try, though. It’s ALWAYS Conservatives. 

  • Missy4576

    We are living the last days… Jesus coming soon and all who do not belive in him will go to HELL! I feel sorry for all of you who believe more in Evolitionary biology (we came from rocks, see http://www.drdino.com).  The belief your great, great relatives are monkeys.  As Christians, we beleive in JESUS (Gods Son) and God himself and he made us, evenyou, and everything around us.  I pray for all of you that before it is to late God will touch your hearts and your eyes will be opened and turn from darkness and earthly desires.  JESUS is the light, the truth, LIFE.  Come to him, he is waiting for you.

  • http://www.facebook.com/leonard.hatcher.5 Leonard Hatcher

    No, I don’t want to hear what Frothy Mcassfuck had to say. I don’t want to see his punchable farking face or hear choke-a-bitch voice.  

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001627228091 Alexander Ryan

    Looks like all the religion in the world can’t teach you how to type. You spelled Evolutionary wrong. I can totally tell you understand exactly what you’re rallying against. I won’t even bring up all the grammatical errors either…

  • Raising_Rlyeh

    Doesn’t WA state require the wording of the referendum to be included on the ballot? If so then all anyone has to do is read the referendum to realize what is going on. 

  • jdm8

    You do a pretty bang-up job of pretending to not understand what it means. Or you’re playing dumb, which I don’t think suits anyone.

  • http://CoffeeShopAtheist.com/blog Patrick

    Hell didn’t exist in the old testament. It is entirely the invention of the Greek’s influence over Jews in the 3rd-1st centuries.  God is mythology, and you’re delusional.  Best of luck.

  • amycas

     “the great mountainous heap of conservative liars”

    Also known as “Bullshit Mountain”

  • amycas

     lol dr. dino, otherwise known as Kent Hovind, the tax fraud.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Shame on him for what? Calling out people for their bullshit? Or are you just offended at his statement?

    Nice job proving him right, by the way. That should be “But Jesus still loves you.” Go back to first grade. 

  • Baby_Raptor

    Pray to your god to grant you basic English skills. You might have more luck if you were understandable. 

    I grew up believing in your celestia. I left because I simply couldn’t reconcile the claims of “He loves us SOOO huggy-buggy much” with what the religion actually teaches.

    Your god set you up to fail, do you realize that? He created people, knowing we would sin and he would have to punish us if he gave us free will, and yet he did it anyway. It’s not our fault we’re so “bad.” It’s his. And yet he decides that we need to suffer in “hell” anyway. How is that love? And how is it moral? Let me know when you have an answer other than “Have faith” or “god works in mysterious ways.”

  • Artor

    Anyone who got one of these calls should be able to check their phone for the number. It should be pretty simple to trace that back to where the calls came from. I hope the culprits are found!

  • Artor

    You misspelled that. The word is amoral.

  • http://www.facebook.com/eukota Darrell Ross

    I disagree with the poster as well. They could be a troll.

    But can we stop with the ad hominem attacks on their grammar? Do any of you seriously never make grammatical errors? I certainly do.

    Criticizing their grammar is about as bad as their trolling. State your disagreement in a respectful manner or risk looking just as bad as they do.

  • http://www.facebook.com/eukota Darrell Ross

    You could be a troll. But providing a sane response, in my opinion, provides a better response than complaining about trolls.

    Marriage equality in this case is similar to racial equality.
    The phrase is used to describe affording the same privileges granted to all couples, heterosexual and homosexual.

  • Collin

    On my absentee ballot the choice is “should this bill be APPROVED or REJECTED.  How is that a yes or no question?

  • Collin

    Whoops. I reread the article-please disregard my last comment.

  • http://www.facebook.com/eukota Darrell Ross

    I think the best course of action is to give this to a local reporter. It would be good to ask around and do some investigating on the group.

    Then a reporter can do a news segment on it – they can get in on the “controversy” which surely gets them points. At the same time, they will be helping expose liars.

    “White Knight” and “Controversy” in a single news story – what self-respecting news reporter wouldn’t bite that?

  • eskomo

    In Minnesota, amendments votes are set up that a non vote is counted as a no vote. Would that be true in Washington?

  • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

    Cat on keyboard?

  • Silentbob

    Well that certainly seems to be the way the church interprets it.

    I get the impression some of the others were just “suggestions” as well:

    Then saith the Lord, “Thou shalt not kill! Um… unless… you know… you want to. I mean… I’m not actually saying you CAN’T kill. It’s just a suggestion. Hey, I didn’t give you guys free will for nothing, you know what I mean. It’s up to you really. Whatever. Matter of fact, I’ve heard tell there’s some folks over yonder that have taken over your promised land. Y’all might want to hustle over there and… well… er… y’know… um… REMOVE them. If you know what I mean. (wink)”

  • ErickaMJohnson

    You can tell a lot about a Christian by which version of the god of the Bible they worship. People who worship a loving, kind, merciful god are people who value love, kindness and mercy. People who revel in the idea of people going to hell if they don’t believe are people who value power and have self-righteously judging hearts.

    As for your Jesus, I prayed repeatedly that he would come into my heart and be my Lord and Savior. I prayed to be reborn, to want the things he wanted me to want. Then I prayed some more.  And waited patiently for years. Your Jesus never showed; he ignored the fervent prayers of a child for salvation.

  • http://gloomcookie613.tumblr.com GloomCookie613

    Bless your heart. No, really! You are just precious.

  • Robster

    Is there ANYONE telling the truth in politics?

  • http://gloomcookie613.tumblr.com GloomCookie613

    Any jackass with an internet connection (or smartphone with an app) can spoof a phone number on caller ID. It’s a common tactic used in debt collection (some even use local police department numbers to make sure people answer) and phone scams. It’s probably not as simple as looking at the caller ID. I agree though that I hope they are found out and called out.

  • Newt


  • Newt

    Is it bad if I hope it works?

  • ErickaMJohnson

    It’s best to use the word “approve” when talking about Ref. 74 because that’s what’s going to be on the ballot.

    Thank you for your support! If you can, please please please volunteer. We just have this tiny window of time left to connect with voters. If nothing else, have diplomatically persuasive conversations with family members and friends.

  • ErickaMJohnson

    I don’t believe so. My understanding is that ballot measures that are left blank are not counted either way. But this isn’t an amendment issue but rather a reaffirmation of a law passed by our state legislator.

  • Mike Gillis

     Ericka is correct. A non-vote isn’t tallied into the percentages.

  • Drakk

     Your sarcasm detector needs recalibration.

  • Drakk

     Not your turn to use the family brain cell, I suppose?

  • Coyotenose

     Mine’s usually “cat tail inserted into nostril”.

  • Coyotenose

    Not in the Southern sense?

  • Missy4576

    Alexander, maybe I have to learn my basic english skills, English is not my primary languaje but I now diferents languajes Spanish, English, Indian and you how many languajes you know? and for one mistake or miss spelling from mi Ipad yuo making a big deal? any way  if for you is more important the gramatical probles is your choise, but you still anderstand what I say God love me, and let me tell you I understand english and see if you understand Spanish: Dios te ama y un dia el vino por ti para darte salvacion, murio en una cruz y derramo su sangre, el no te jusga y asi mismo no jusgues a los demas. Dios te bendiga Alexander

  • Pureone

     You start with a threat and six unsubstantiated claims. Evidence?

    As far as Mr. Hovind, he has a PRATT list- Points Refuted A Thousand Times. You also seem to be getting the How of life appearing confused with the Who. Chrisians can and do accept evolution.

    You believe we came from rocks- Mud is simply very fine rock, and bone (rib) is comprised of calcium and phosphorus- elements commonly comprising rocks.

    Then you make more unsubstantiated  claims. 

  • Missy4576

    Baby Raptor, English Squils is beside the point, in english you  also  make mistakes , any way , people who does not belive in God is bad? you are wrong!!! sorry for you because God  is not choosing to go hell is YOU who does, and YES God works in misterios ways… he does…He is there for you for good or for bad.
    Some peolple looking for God only when they need and after thats is not God at all, and when they have problems they say Where are you God? he is not a servant? he is God!!!

  • Coyotenose

     The wording is usually included, but many people who walk in prepped to be confused by lies or lack of knowledge won’t catch on in time.

    Consider the “butterfly ballots” from 2000. *Technically* they were correct in that each selection was connected to the right candidate, but they were set up to confuse people, and succeeded many thousands of times.

  • Vicki Williams

    As someone who works on the phone banks for this campaign – there are conservatives who aren’t connected to progressive communities where they hear that phrase all the time.  We are using the phrase “Freedom to Marry” which seems to cause less confusion.

  • http://twitter.com/UAJamie Jamie Bernstein

    I suggest Seattle Atheists send out a press release along with names and contact information for people who claimed to of received these phone calls. Not only will this likely be a big story, but getting it out in the media will help to warn people against calls like this.

  • Baal

     Missy, I don’t doubt your sincerity but the science on evolution is clear.  Ask your local university for thie text for biology 101.   Read it.  You’ll see Dr.Dino (aka hovind) is nothing but lies.

  • Vicki Williams

    We would love to have it covered in the news, but they (correctly IMHO) aren’t going to without proof.  Hopefully, publicity like this article will result in others coming forward who have had this happen to them.  So- please forward this article far and wide, especially to anyone you know in Washington State.

  • Baal

     Probably not.  BUT (I like big buts!) there is a big difference between not allways telling a full truth while more or less trying to run the show (drive the car?) and intentionally lying your ass off (grabbing the wheel while someone else is drive and yanking hard).

  • Vicki Williams

    Since you live in the area, please forward this article around.  It would be great if it connected with other people who have been called so that they know to come forward with their stories.

  • http://twitter.com/UAJamie Jamie Bernstein

    Actually, scratch that. I totally just sent in this story in the “story tip” contact section of the Seattle Times. I really hope they pick it up!

  • Antinomian

    Do I smell the delicious aroma of christian desperation? Should we serve their tears as the soup dujuor with a heaping helping of hypocrite roast and bigot pie?

  • ErickaMJohnson

    I sent this link on to a few media outlets, heard back from only one of them. They’re not going to pick up the story without having some sort of recording they can use as solid proof. I understand that completely. I just hope more people who’ve gotten these calls figure out that they were false and come forward with their own stories. The more we can piece together, the more we can know about the group that’s making these calls.

  • ErickaMJohnson

    If people read the ballot language, it will be clear. But a significant number of voters don’t read all of it and just check what they believe was the right vote based on what they’d heard or seen. And with a ballot issue like this, every vote counts. It’s going to be a very tight race.

  • ErickaMJohnson

    They wait to confirm how someone is going to vote before they start with the rudeness or pushiness. 

  • matt

     The creator of the universe would never birth himself into mankind and then have to wait  9 months later be born.  He could’ve made close to 40 earths in that time, right?

    He supposedly poofed Adam into existence straight out of dust, why not Jesus?
    Pretty inefficient for a all-knowing all-powerful god don’t you think?

  • http://gloomcookie613.tumblr.com GloomCookie613

    I meant that so Southern it’s dripping grits and pecan pie.

  • John

     “Squils”?  Really?  I’m calling Poe.

  • Coyotenose

     I don’t know whether to wince or go get a fork and some sweet tea.

  • Missy4576

    Read the bible… What you do not realize is God sending his only SON taking man’s body was to fulfill the prophecy of the Bible.Second, to show the world his great love for humanity he was born as a human suffered as a human and crucified so we can be with him.  God could destroy earth, and universe if he wanted to, however, God loves us and gives us this last opportunity, so after his death on the cross the rose victorious defeating death for you and me, giving us  everlasting life.

  • Missy4576

    Yes and NO….
    1. Cosmic Evolution: The origin of time, space and matter, by the Big Bang 2. Chemical Evolution: The origin of higher elements from hydrogen. 3. Stellar and Planetary Evolution: The origin of stars and planets. 4. Organic Evolution: The origin of Life. 5. Macro-Evolution: The changing from one kind of species to another kind of species. 6. Micro-Evolution: The variation within kinds of species. Observations about the different types of Evolution- Of the above supposed 6 types of Evolution, only the last one, Micro-Evolution, has ever been observed. – The other 5 types of Evolution are part of the Theory of Evolution. – The other 5 types of Evolution are all theoretical, and have never been observed. – They cannot be reproduced in a laboratory, and do not therefore fall under the strict definition of a science. – They are in fact a belief system, taught in countless school and universities in the world. – Sadly they are taught as fact, even though the factual content of the Theory of Evolution cannot be proved or disproved, since nobody was present, and these beliefs cannot be reproduced in a laboratory.

  • Missy4576

    Yes, it does, read the bible on  Amos 9, is talking about “SHEOL”, Numbers 16:31-33 is mention also “SHEOL” ( hell), Job 11:8, Psalm 9:17 and more.

  • Deven Kale

    1) Big bang theory only says what happened to create the Universe as we know it, it says nothing about what may have been there before. Nobody calls it evolution of any sort other than creationists.

    2) This isn’t chemical evolution, it’s elemental creation, and it can be (and has been) reproduced in laboratories.Nobody calls it evolution of any sort other than creationists.

    3) This is called cosmology, not stellar evolution. There is plenty of evidence supporting this, by observing other galaxies and solar systems, but also through mathematical modeling. Nobody calls it evolution of any sort other than creationists.

    4) This is called abiogenesis, and I know almost nothing about this one other than the name of it. Somebody else is going to have to talk on that. Nobody calls it evolution of any sort other than creationists.

    5) This has been observed in labs, and in nature. The only thing needed is enough generations with some sort of selective pressures on a group of animals to cause speciation. Unless you’re talking about the “crocoduck,” which is completely impossible.

    6) This is the only thing which you have even close to right, and I’m glad that you at least admit that this one is true, except for the nonsense of “kinds,” which nobody has ever been able to find empirically.

    I can tell you’re a disciple of Ken Ham, so let me ask you, were you there when the Bible was written?

  • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

    Yeah, it does say “SHEOL”. Sheol simply means “the grave”, as in, you’re dead and buried. Nothing about fire, brimstone, and eternal torture.

    Your concept of “Hell” was heavily influenced by Greek and Roman concept of an afterlife where the good are rewarded (the Elysian Fields) and the wicked were punished (Tartarus), and named, in fact, after Hel, Norse ruler of the land of the dead.

    Therefore, your claim is incorrect.

  • http://CoffeeShopAtheist.com/blog Patrick

    Yes, Sheol, The place where dead bodies go. It literally means ‘ground,’ and gives absolutely no indication of an afterlife, of spirits, or souls.

    Also, there is no notion of punishment or reward in said afterlife; this was (again) an entirely greek/roman invention out of Hades/Tartarus, and Elysium.

    Numbers 19: 33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to [t]Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. 34 All Israel who were around them fled at their [u]outcry, for they said, “The earth may swallow us up!”

    Thanks for proving my case again. Sheol means the earth, or the place where dead bodies go. No indication whatsoever of an afterlife.

    Job 11:8 refers to ‘heaven’ as the firmament, i.e. the area hanging above the flat earth. ‘sheol’ is the area below the flat earth, literally the dirt, and back-reading modern concepts into this language is dishonest and disingenuous. Same with Amos 9; no mention of afterlife, all high-up or in the ground.

    Psalm 9 is particularly clear:

    The wicked will [m]return to [n]Sheol,
    Even all the nations who forget God.

    How can someone *return* to a place that is *reserved* for punishment? The only way this makes sense is in light of Genesis 3:19 “By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

    There is absolutely, positively, no indication of a place where souls commune, punishment or reward exists whatsoever, especially from Sheol. Every mention, indication, or breath of this word indites it as the ground, a place where bodies go, with no consciousness after.

    So again, reiterating with much more proof thanks to you, Hell and Heaven are foreign concepts to the mythology of the old testament. This is what makes the Christ-myth so particularly sadistic.

  • Missy4576

    Hi Erika…I just want to let you know that God exist, and just because you have never felt him does not mean that he was not there for you or exist…  There was a man named Job, he was rich in riches and family as well a religious man.  However, one day God allowed Satan to test Job, to take away everything. Satan told God that Job only loves you because you gave him everything, but take it all way and Job will turn his back to you… Therefore, that day God said to do it, take it all, and he will still worship me.  Satan did, but Job never turns his back to God.  Job proved to Satan his devotion to God proving to Satan that Job was there no matter what, and God was protecting him all the time.  Job was not alone; you can read more about the Story of Job in the 18th book of the Bible.  The story of Job is a parable, trying to teach us why bad things happen to good people; this continues to happen even today, this is why we have to be strong and to continue our Faith.  You can also read a simple poem, unknown writer, called “Footprints.” I don’t know what situations you had in your life but God was always there for you, even know as read this he is there for you, waiting for you call him.  He will never force himself onto you only wait for you are to call him with all your heart and faith.  Even when you feel the most alone, he is there holding you, carrying you.  God works in mysterious ways, which may not make any sense to us, but he has a plan that only he, not even Jesus knows.   God Bless you and I will pray for you, you may have turned your back on God, but he will NEVER turn away from you.  He is waiting for you and everyone else who are in the same situation.  There is only One GOD, and like humans gets angry, punishes his children, gives praise, and most of all LOVES us all no matter what.

  • Missy4576

    As christian i will bless you and pray for you… whithout God you are nothing, go to first grade? ok  maybe we have to go together so like this I can learn more about  your languaje( english) and you can learn more about Jesus. Dios te bendiga Baby

  • Missy4576

    Ryan, the grammatical error ? ,  you understand what I try to say and thats is important, I don’t talk about religion, I am talking about JESUS, yes I am learning y will better, I am study no only English but Mr. perfect with out mistakes, you don’t belive in JESUS because you think everything has to be perfect, but the only perfect person in this world is JESUS. Dios te bendiga   and try to learn other languajes.

  • ErickaMJohnson

    Hi Missy. I’m going to share a story with you. There was a man named Noah. According to the Bible, he was a just man and a perfect man among his generation. He walked with God. While you may be familiar with the story of how God saved him from the flood, you may not have read further to learn what happened with him and his family after the flood. One day, Noah got drunk and naked. His son, Ham, accidentally saw his nudity. As a punishment for Ham seeing him naked, Noah forced Ham’s son, Canaan, into slavery.  Remember, according to the Bible, Noah was a just man. Yet he forced a man into SLAVERY because of an accidental misstep on the part of that man’s father. The moral of this story is that the Bible has abhorrent things in it that are passed off as moral teachings.

    I never turned my back on your god just as you never turned your back on the invisible pink unicorn that’s been living secretly and invisibly in your living room. You can’t turn your back on something you just don’t believe in because there’s nothing to turn away from.

    I’m glad to see that you value love. That’s something we share. I sincerely wish you well but I’m saddened by you’ve been deluded.

  • ErickaMJohnson

    They are taught as facts because they are facts with mountains of evidence supporting them. You weren’t there at the signing of the Declaration of Independence but you know that it happened because the document exists and there’s a multitude of additional documentation about the details of the event.

    Ironically, there is no such evidence to support your god but you believe he’s fact. That makes you a bit of a hypocrite.

  • Deven Kale

     Yeah sure, let’s all worship a god who allows a man to have all of his belongings stolen or destroyed and his entire family murdered on a bet with his worst enemy. Yeah, that sounds fucking brilliant!

  • Missy4576

    There are two perspectives necessary to understand this issue, one cultural and historical and the other exegetical. In the old King James Version, the English word “hell” actually was used to translate two different words and two very different concepts. One term was the word gehenna, (for example, Matt 5:22). This was adapted from the name of a valley to the south of the Temple in Jerusalem where the city garbage was burned, the “Valley of Hinnom.” Because of the perpetual fires, and also because there had been idols to the Canaanite god Molech erected there to which were offered human sacrifices, ge hinnom (“valley of Hinnom” in Hebrew; 2 Kings 23:10) became a symbol for the judgment of God. The fires also came to symbolize that punishment and destruction, and became the more common way to conceptualize “hell” in later Christian tradition.
    Another term, and one more relevant to our topic, is the Greek term Hades (for example, Matt 11:23). This term comes from Greek mythology in which it was the abode of the dead. It was used to translate into Greek the Hebrew concept of Sheol. While in the Old Testament this term was not mythological, it was a metaphorical way to talk about what happened to people when they died. Sheol was simply the place where dead people go. It was almost synonymous with death and especially “grave,” and indeed is used that way in several Old Testament passages, for example, Psa 49:14:
    Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd; straight to the grave they descend, and their form shall waste away; Sheol shall be their home.
    In other words, Sheol or Hades was a poetic way to say, “they died and were buried.” It is in this sense that the phrase in the Apostles’ Creed is used, using the ambiguous word “hell” in English, when the more precise idea of Hades actually lies behind the statement. “He descended into hell” then becomes nothing more than a statement that Jesus died and was placed in the tomb, the grave. Using Hebrew concepts, Israelites would say he descended into Sheol, that is, was lowered into the grave. Or they could say that he slept with the fathers (for example, 1 Kings 2:10), that is, was placed in a family tomb. It is in that context that the affirmation of the resurrection is so powerful.
    This confusion of the concept may already have been at work in the early church, and may even have influenced the passages in 1 Peter, recognized by most scholars to be some of the latest in the New Testament written near the end of the first century. We cannot be sure of that, but in any case there is more to be gained in looking exegetically at those passages.
    In two passages in 1 Peter (3:19, 4:6) it might sound as if Jesus preached to those who have already died, presumably with the goal of calling them to repentance. This is especially appealing when those verses are read in light of the later concept of purgatory developed in Catholic tradition from passages in the apocryphal books of Macabees. However, a careful examination of the passages in 1 Peter does not confirm that perspective (cf. J. Ramsey Michaels, Word Biblical Commentary).
    1 Peter 3:18-20a: For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey . . .

  • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

    I’m not interested in your outright abuse of logic and reason to justify your position. I’m not interested in hearing you rabbit on about the Bible and why your interpretation is right and actual, recorded history is “wrong”.

    Now, stop preaching at us, please, and contribute something useful.

  • Missy4576

    Jesus come to change everything , that’s why we have old testament and new testament, if you read in the old testament you will see also that when someone was on sin they were making a sacrifice, but now after Jesus came for us we don’t have to do it anymore, because Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. I know in whom I believe, Jesus is God and he exist, and one day He will come back.

  • Missy4576

    Job always said, God give to me God take from me, he never respond like you… that’s why he received a double of what he had, Job received a double bless from God, because he never turn his back to God.

  • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

    Then God is a dick, because for some reason he had a hard-on for the Philistines. But aren’t they also His children? Was He being a shitty parent and playing favourites? Awfully petty for an omniscient, omnipotent being, no?

  • Pureone

    You should study science before you try to talk about it, It would be cute if you were 5 years old. 

    Theories aren’t proved or disproved, they are falsified. Now try to falsify evolution.  You don’t even know the amount of evidence for evolution. 

    You don’t even know what evolution is.

  • Pureone

    And congrats on your ability on copy and paste abilities. Makes it easier when you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. 

    Your god must be so weak that he can’t use evolution.

  • Deepak Shakur

     This is why people are voting AGAINST gay marriage.  Because of obnoxious douchebags like you.

  • Deepak Shakur

    “How do I know this? On Sunday night, Seattle Atheists (my local group) hosted the Flying Spaghetti Monster Dinner for Marriage Equality.”

    I was undecided on this issue, but you made up my mind.  If proponents of marriage equality is this closely tied with the subset of Atheists who toss the obnoxious “Flying Spaghetti Monster” crap around in a vain attempt to prove they’re smarter than everyone else when they’re not, it’s enough to turn my stomach.

    Good luck championing your cause by turning a sect of Atheism into a snarky hipster cult; I’m certain you’ll attract a lot of “thoughtful debate” that way.

  • Deven Kale

     People are voting against same-sex marriage because some people do thinks like correct grammar on the internet? I really hope you’re wrong about that.

  • ErickaMJohnson

    “Snarky hipster cult”? What are you talking about?? There was not a hipster in the house that night. In fact, almost half of the people there were with their families. The FSM is a silly, fun thing, perfect for a family-friendly event and perfect for creating fun images to help with advertising the positive action-focused event. 

    And can you explain to me how you would have been undecided on whether loving, committed gay and lesbian couples should have the freedom to marry? 

  • Thesongoftime

    Not always the conservatives my friend. There are a lot of people who vote democrat, but are actually conservative, blacks, mexicans, and poor people are just to name a few.

  • Thesongoftime

     Just realized you said Conservatives, but my assumption was you meant Republicans.

  • Missy4576

    Remember this words when God will come back and he will ask you, why you did not listen about him when you have a chance?
     Are you going to say nobody told me anything about you, or perhaps you will have others excuses?
     This is the time for YOU, remember is not second chances after the death, I did my job by telling you about God, now is you turn to decide, if you going to recognize  JESUS as your Savior or turn your back,  everybody choose what you want.
    This is productive for me, and for everybody.

  • Missy4576

    Religion doesn’t teach you how to tipe, religion doesn’t giving you a salvation either, but God teach me  how to love, and be a better person, God give me a salvation, everything else is nothing, I am learning and making mistakes, I am not perfect.

  • Missy4576

    My God is not weak, if you think that your relatives are MONKEYS, sorry for YOU!!  I am the MOST prefect creation, from an perfect GOD and not from one animal, or from a rock…

  • Missy4576

    did you study the bible?

  • Missy4576

    if I am telling you where I was you don’t going to believe me read Psalm 23 -6.

    I am going back home whit God.

    God Bless you

  • Deven Kale

     Why would you think that having the playground right next to the toxic waste dump is a perfect design? You gotta be pretty twisted to think that’s good engineering.

  • ErickaMJohnson

    You have a blind spot in your eyes. And I don’t mean that metaphorically. The point where the optic nerve attaches to the back of your retina causes there to be a blind spot in the back of your eyes.

  • Missy4576

    Believe in science and see if your science will give you the answerer that your heart looking for, the world is how it is because people forgotten who is GOD, no more mercy, no more love, people who looking for vain things. God is not forcing you to believe in him.
    I am not hypocrite, I just want to share the love that I have, because God is LOVE, I am sorry if you have a bad experience with other Christians, but who really know the true GOD never will be against the other people.
    Remember is not second chances after the death, look for Jesus now that is still time.

  • Missy4576

    God bless you everybody in this page, if you believe or not  in God, I just want to everybody know That God is love, don’t keep your eyes close, now is time to open it, I can force you to believe in God neither God will do it. Read the bible, if is not convince you do more research.
    Rememebre that you were choose long time ago for something special, go and find it, you have one purpose in this world.


  • Deven Kale

     “Believe in science and see if your science will give you the answerer that your heart looking for”

    I’ve looked into religions, a few of them. They haven’t shown me anything of what my heart is looking for. My heart is looking for truth, and when an institution has to resort to masturbatory philosophical nonsense, I know it’s time to walk the other way. So far, no religion has shown me anything resembling any level of truth, but science has.

    Science has something called proof. If I want to know how we know something scientific, all I need do is ask the right question, follow the trail (learn some new terminology) and there’s always something concrete at the end of the road that I can actually hold in my hand. Until any religion can bring me something at that level, which points to nothing but that religions god, I’m gonna have to stick with atheism and science as my sources for my hearts desire: Truth.

  • Missy4576

    God is not doing anything to the Philistine, they choose what to do it,  we have a freedom to choose what is good ot what is bad, if you read  Luc 15:11-32 you will understand why this happen, they choose what they want until their eyes will be open.

  • Missy4576

    God is not religion, if you see it in that way you are mistaking…that is why many people try to study God or try to follow others and as soon, they see something wrong they blame God.
    As people we make mistake, and always try find someone to blame, I know that JESUS came for me and die for mi sin and for your sin too.
    In this time I saw so many churches, and some of those churches are not doing thinks wrights, but not for this I will stop my faith in JESUS, and not for that’s I will blame Jesus for what happen.
    Science has proof, but many of the proof were been wrong also, and science has limitations, my GOD does not, everybody knows that is ONE GOD watching everything.
    If you were looking for institutions (church), let me tell you are on the wrong pat, because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life; No one comes to the father but through.
    Science will give you satisfaction but not happiness, sciences will give you knowledge but not answer, and tell me MIRACLE is also science?

  • Andsben

     What a pointless and incorrect thing to say.

  • Deven Kale

    “God is not religion[.]”

    Yes he is. Each religion has a different god than all the others. In order to study a god, you must study the religion in which that god is based. If the religion itself is nonsense, so is that religions god.

    “Science has proof, but many of the proof were been wrong also[.]”

    Proof can’t be wrong (unless you’re talking math). Evidence can either prove something true or false, and that’s it. Most hypotheses, even ones that seemed valid, have been shown to be false all throughout history. It’s science that has proven those wrong by gaining new evidence empirically. With science, wrong ideas are dropped in favor of those that better explain reality. Religion doesn’t do that.

    If you were looking for institutions (church), let me tell you are on the wrong pat, because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life; No one
    comes to the father but through.

    Jesus is only a part of Christian religions, and each one has a different interpretation of who he is, what he meant, and how he should be worshipped. In order to properly understand which Jesus, if any, that I should worship I would have to study the teachings of each separate Christian religion and hope to find one that seems to fit with reality. So far, I haven’t found one yet.

    Science will give you satisfaction but not happiness, sciences will give you knowledge but not answer, and tell me MIRACLE is also science?

    I don’t desire constant happiness. Being happy all the time is the realm of the delusional. Science has the answers, religion has comforting fiction. Miracles are only science we don’t yet understand.

  • Missy4576

    I cannot believe that you are so blind.God is not religion, people make it look like this, and this is why many people do not believe in God because this people trying to study God, but you cannot study him, He is the ALPHA and the OMEGA, the beginning and the end. I know one God who came and died for me, he was crucify and he come alive after three days and he was the winner of the death, is this also a science? Jesus, is not part of the Christianity, He is everything for all the true Christians.When you really find and understand who is GOD you will find the true happiness, because you do not going to looking for someone physically, because God is not physically he is spiritual. How you, the whole universe and me can be came from science, or evolution is has to be something else, and that something else is GOD.We are a perfect creation and we came from someone perfect, and one day we will be perfect, we will received a new body, this body is for short time, this body has feelings (feel sad, happy, cold, hot, make mistakes etc), but the new body will be glorious.How you can say miracle is science? Can you give me some examples of those?

  • Deven Kale

    How you can say miracle is science? Can you give me some examples of those?

    Sure. Give me an example of a miracle, and I’ll give you the real explanation.

  • Missy4576

    Deven really? I as you for an example about science and you can give one… good luck with your science, read the bible if you want to find miracles, in the bible you will find, in the old testament tell me how SARA, Abraham’s wife had a son when she was old? Isaac was the promess from God, how water were become in  wine ?

  • MISSY4576

    tell me can sciencies also bring back  the dead by saying WAKE UP! like JESUS did with LAZARUS? 

  • Deven Kale

     The reason I told you to tell me the miracle was so you couldn’t say that what I discredit wasn’t a miracle.

    Old woman giving birth: not unheard of.

    I don’t understand what you’re saying about Isaac.

    Turning water into wine is a simple parlor trick. Anybody with any training in slight-of-hand “magic” would be able to do the same.

  • Deven Kale

     There are plenty of drugs which can feign death for a time, even days. All Jesus would need to know is which drug was used and how long it’s effective in order to be able to wake him up by saying “wake up!”

  • MISSY4576

    Therefore, Lazarus was in drugs.
     What sciences can proof that he was in drug and not dead, the bible says that his body was in decomposition, tell me what you are talking about, this was a MIRACLE, and what about Abraham’s wife, read the bible and give me better explanation about you science.

  • MISSY4576

    You tell me what science will turn water in to wine?
    This process was a MIRACLE, because the only person who creates the water can change the water.
    About Isaac, he born from an old woman who was no longer in childbearing years, so explain me how she was able to have a baby? Now maybe you can explain by science but back them NO, I am invited you to read the bible and find more miracles what sciences cannot explain, they try but they cannot.
    Abraham’s faith was important, because believe in GOD, that’s why God fulfilled his promise, Abraham did not listen to God and he try to do accord of him, but God told him NO You will have a son with your wife, and God give a son a healthy son Isaac.

  • MISSY4576

    You tell me what science will turn water in to wine?
    This process was a MIRACLE, because the only person who creates the water can change the water.
    About Isaac, he born from an old woman who was no longer in childbearing years, so explain me how she was able to have a baby? Now maybe you can explain by science but back them NO, I am invited you to read the bible and find more miracles what sciences cannot explain, they try but they cannot.
    Abraham’s faith was important, because believe in GOD, that’s why God fulfilled his promise, Abraham did not listen to God and he try to do accord of him, but God told him NO You will have a son with your wife, and God give a son a healthy son Isaac.

  • MISSY4576

    Therefore, Lazarus was in drugs.
     What sciences can proof that he was in drug and not dead, the bible says that his body was in decomposition, tell me what you are talking about, this was a MIRACLE, and what about Abraham’s wife, read the bible and give me better explanation about you science.

  • Deven Kale

     No, Lazarus wasn’t on drugs. Lazarus was given a drug which faked his death for a period of days. Jesus knew which drug was given, and waited until the proper time to startle Lazarus out of his drugged state. Conspiracies back in those days were easy to perpetrate. 4 days does not give much time for decomposition on a prepared body anyway, so that bit was clearly made up.

    Old women give birth all the time, I gave you an example. The so-called prediction? More like post-diction. The prediction was written after conception (and perhaps the birth) to make it seem more impressive.

  • Deven Kale

     “You tell me what science will turn water in to wine?”

    Not science, but trickery. Simple sleight of hand, close up magic tricks. Like I said, anybody with even a bit of training in magic tricks would know how to do such a thing.

    The Bible says that Sarah was barren from the very beginning. It says nothing about menopause. Giving birth during old age is nothing new, it does happen. In recent years, in the example I gave you, a woman as old as 70 gave birth. Such things could have just as likely happened back then.

  • Erp

    I’m taking this to a new thread as the old one has gotten too narrow.

    To Devan, on wine into water and other ‘miracles’ in the scriptures.  It isn’t science that explains them  (though it helps); it is history.   Documents aren’t always accurate so historians have to evaluate them to tease out what is useful.  What genre are they in (if a novel or a parable one doesn’t expect high historical accuracy though they still can give info [e.g., a contemporary novel written circa 1900 may well have details on social customs of 1900])? What biases do the authors have?   What are their sources or likely sources?     The story of the water into wine shows up in only one story (John) which is written down decades after Jesus’ life, it very much serves a narrative function (the start of his ministry, the host/Jesus now providing the really good wine/teachings), and if it happened is either a trick or a miracle (this is science providing a limit).  I suspect Biblical historians except for a subset of Christians would think it is fiction made up by a later narrator and possibly not even deliberately (e.g., “Jesus coming from God after the prophets is like a host providing the really good wine late in the wedding feast” after a few iterations of oral telling one then gets the story of a wedding feast where Jesus turns water into wine).

    In contrast I would say that Jesus having actually lived, been a leader/teacher of a small group, and been crucified is likely.  It is attested in several sources including the earliest, Paul’s letters, (though some may share some overlap in sources they each have somewhat different spins on it), doesn’t violate science (the resurrection though does), and fits in with Roman practice when dealing with potential troublemakers.


    Have you actually read Job beyond the framing story?  Job says:

    “Why did I not perish at birth,  and die as I came from the womb? Why were there knees to receive me and breasts that I might be nursed?  For now I would be lying down in peace”

    and “Why is life given to a man  whose way is hidden, whom God has hedged in?”

  • MISSY4576

    Aside from the fact that changing water into wine requires supernatural ability, the most astonishing thing about this miracle is that because of it “He thus revealed His Glory and the disciples put their faith in Him.” Helping a friend with a beverage problem as a favor to His mom? Many commentators put this miracle way down their list of great things Jesus did, if they include it at all, but John put it first and attached considerable significance to it. Must be more going on here than meets the eye.
     The old woman has a baby because God promess her, now any woman can have a baby because of science, but 2000 years ego is was not posible, but remember NOTHING IS IMPOSIBLE FOR GOD.

  • MISSY4576

    wrong wrong, please read the bible, and everything what you say is does not make any sense bye

  • Bryan Stenson

    When honesty isn’t enough…remind me how this is a war on our “values”?

  • J. K. King

    I agree with people on this thread that “Christians” oppose gay marriage by hypocritical dishonest tactics. They need to clean themselves up, and especially repent of bearing false witness.

    However, that doesn’t convert gay marriage into something other than a four sided triangle, cold fire, hot ice, light black, dark white,  fried ice cream, or frozen flambe’.

    I enjoy debate, but simply arguing over who is smarter than who is boring and pointless.

    J. K. King, author of the website http://www.shockedbytruth.com

  • J. K. King


    You sound like a very intelligent and thoughtful individual. Furthermore you had stated “I revel in any opportunity for a thoughtful debate on……”

    Especially since blogging seems to have limited value as a tool of communication due to its piecemeal nature, and I retired early from regular employment,  let’s challenge each other.

    After we agree on a subject, lets fence it out.

  • J. K. King

     Why focus on the worst negatives?

    If there’s a supreme God, then He’s responsible for creating everything from His own mind.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   In that case, just being born is getting something for nothing. God doesn’t owe us anything any more than a child in art class owes a ball of clay.

    The Christian religion teaches that God allows evil for now to allow for free will so we are not robots. This inconvenient millisecond which we call life will be nothing compared with timeless eternity.

  • Deven Kale

     That’s a rather big “if” you’re clinging to there. Without it, nothing in your post has any value or meaning whatsoever. It’s also funny you mention the problem of evil since I didn’t even bring it up. Seems like you’re the one who has a problem with it and you’re bringing it up with me expecting some sort of debate. Not gonna happen.

    What I have a problem with is someone claiming a being who will allow that level of torture be done to a man on a bet as “the most absolute ultimate good.” (If you can’t tell, I’m paraphrasing WLC) That’s what I’m alluding to with my comment- it has nothing to do with the problem of evil at all.

  • J. K. King


    Typing “if” is temporarily catering to your atheism. (a “for argument’s sake”)

    There is no if for me. IS for me.

    Having a problem with someone claiming that someone’s life being ruined is the most absolute ultimate good: No shit, that’s common sense.

    Who’s WLC? A clown from Ringling Brother’s? Actually your straw man is appropriate given the season: You should enter the spooky scarecrow contest for Halloween.

  • J. K. King

     The Bible certainly contains many terrible and laughable stories.
    But that’s IRRELEVANT to whether or not there’s a God.

    Let’s say that 95% of believers are convinced that strawberry is the best ice cream.
    Does proving that chocolate is the best instead prove atheism?

    Having the common sense to know not to imitate the junk in the Bible and only follow Christ’s teachings solves the problem.

    Here’s a surprise for everyone on this thread:
    The Old Testament was separate from the new for a whopping 1,200 years!!! It was mistakenly mated with the New Testament.

  • Deven Kale

     WLC = William Lane Craig.

    There was no strawman. I was saying that I have a problem with the being who made the bet. I cannot accept calling such a being “the absolute ultimate good.” Consider one of us here on Earth making such a bet and allowing those atrocities: We would all consider them extremely dangerous and have them removed from society in one way or another rather quickly. More than anything, I think it’s the double standard that bothers me.

    I now realize that I’m not sure if I’ve ever heard WLC claim his god as such, so I have to retract the claim that he said it. It seems to be a rather common Christian claim considering how many times it’s come up when I debate them online, and so I wouldn’t be surprised if he has, but I don’t actually know for sure.

  • J. K. King

     Thanks for clarifying yourself.

    I don’t remember any William Lane Craig, I just looked him up, he looks like an Evangelical.  I’m glad I quit Evangelicalism.

    I hope that the people you’ve come across are not representative of most believers.

    As you can see from my dissertation “Jesus of Nazareth’s Original Teachings”, I contrast what Jesus taught with what “Christians” teach, and what the early Church practiced compared to churches today.  I put these sharply contrasting points side by side.  There’s a HUMUNGOUS difference.