Christianity Today: It’s Disrespectful Not to Tell Rape Victims About the ‘Redeeming Power of God’

On Tuesday night, Indiana Republican Richard Mourdock said in a debate for Senate candidates that babies born to mothers who got raped are just a part of God’s plan.

Richard Mourdock

It wasn’t a “gaffe.” He fully believes it, as do many Christians. But perhaps that diversity of belief within Christian circles is worth exploring, so Christianity Today posted an article titled “Are Pregnancies Even from Rape a Gift from God?

While writer Mark Galli disavows any notion that God “pre-ordains rape”, his attempt at compassionate conservatism fails miserably at the end:

Though a prime example of gotcha-politics, this incident raises other issues, issues weighted with glory even. It almost goes without saying that for Christians, while rape is a terrible thing, in the providence of God, this too can be redeemed, a tragic event from which love can emerge. And yet we live in a society in which many find this view intolerable, outside the bounds — anathema. This is a delicate conversation we’re a part of in America, one that requires us to eschew the cheap advice or platitudes of Job’s counselors, to be sure. Then again, it may be even more “disrespectful to the survivors of rape” to fail to tell them about the wondrous redeeming power of God, even in the most horrible circumstances.

That’s gotta be an interesting conversation to have… “Hey, you know how you just got raped? Don’t worry about it. Jesus still loves you. Now have that baby or else you’ll be shipped off to jail.”

One of the commenters on CT likens it to telling a starving child “God will use your suffering for good.” I’m sure that line goes over well in church and makes everyone feel better about the world they think God created for them… but if you ever say that to an actual starving person, you’re a heartless jerk.

This is why religious extremism and the politicians who openly promote it (like Rick Santorum (who is Catholic), Mike Huckabee, Michele Bachmann, Rick Perry, etc.) don’t go over well with the nation at large. The ideas that come from that mentality are just plain awful. It’s one thing to say it in church where no one rebuts the pastor; it’s another to say it in front of an audience that doesn’t already agree with everything you say.

I’m still hoping Mourdock learns that lesson the hard way in a couple of weeks.

About Hemant Mehta

Hemant Mehta is the chair of Foundation Beyond Belief and a high school math teacher in the suburbs of Chicago. He began writing the Friendly Atheist blog in 2006. His latest book is called The Young Atheist's Survival Guide.

  • http://www.holytape.etsy.com Holytape

    Mourdock probably won’t learn.  1) because there are enough jerks out there who argee with him.  2) because there are enough people who will ignore that comment and vote for him, because they will never vote for a godless communists fascist (which all democrats are these days.  3) Mourdock is incapable of learning anything, because he is dumber that a sack of rabbit shit, which everyone knows is the least intellectually gifted of all the manures.  

    • urholywhoringmother

      And what exactly is wrong with being godless? mhhhmmm? care to say? Cleary having a god is better ESPECIALLY when it plans for ur rape. (Sarcasm) 

  • Gordon Duffy

     This reminds me of the epiode of the Atheist Experience where they walked the believer through the problem of god sending people to hell and the caller’s response was “that’s messed up”.

    Not that the god they believe in sends people to hell was messed up, but the chain of logic was messed up.

    Rape is not a gift from god, and if it is you need a better god.

  • njew84

    The importance of letting a baby live regardless of how it was conceived should be especially important to atheists seeing how in your view this is the only life we get. That child might have a horrible childhood but its going to mold and shape who they are. They could be one of the most horrifying people on the planet or they could be one of the most wonderful people you’ve ever met.

    If my daughter were to get raped I would be very distraught, but in no way would I want her to have an abortion. Life is rough, having a baby is not easy, but killing an innocent person because someone made a poor decision is unacceptable. There are people out there who cannot have children for one, but if it were my grandchild I would do everything in my power to make sure my daughter could continue her eduction or whatever she needed to do and keep her child. When bad things happen you don’t quit, no matter how tough the situation you keep going. Innocent children deserve a shot at life too! Stop abortion, remember that baby could have been you!

    • George Wiman

      Careless use of the word “baby” there. Once a baby exists I’d agree with you. But an un-implanted but fertilized egg, or a zygote etc. is not a baby. No brain to speak of, so there’s nobody home. 
       
      In your religion perhaps a “soul” is created when a sperm touches an egg, I don’t know. If you believe that then you can act accordingly in your own life, but since there’s no evidence for it, you can’t make it the law of the land.

      • njew84

        If a “baby” isn’t supposed to be born it will pass naturally, who are you to make the laws because I can’t prove we have a soul?

        • http://www.holytape.etsy.com Holytape

           Please tell me you are going break out and start singing “Every Sperm is Sacred.”   

          • pagansister

             Great song!    :o)

        • https://twitter.com/OffensivAtheist Bismarket

          Right back at you. Who’re you to decide either. At least we have some evidence on our side.

        • JD929

          It is not wise to use laws to foster or enforce a religious viewpoint on to people that might not share it. Your fatalism argument is from a religious viewpoint. Calling a zygote a person is a religious viewpoint. That a baby is the same as an early stage fetus is also a religious viewpoint.

          The problem I have with modern US conservatism is while they often don’t like the government interfering with people’s lives (generally an honorable position if they actually follow through with it), unless it is to impose religiously based laws on them, which is one major class of horribly inspired laws.

        • Baby_Raptor

          Who are you to dictate that women have to carry every single pregnancy based on your heart-strings?

          • Brianna

             “heart-strings?”

          • Foster

            From a civil perspective, asking women not to kill their fetuses could be justified from a pragmatic standpoint.  The state has a compelling interest in there being a next generation.  In the same way that we ask soldiers to fight our wars for the sake of the state, we could ask women to bear children for the sake of the state with the same logic.  Naturally, being a Catholic myself, I believe abortion is a form of murder, so the civil reason I provided would not be the strongest consideration for me in saying that abortion is wrong, but my point is that one does not necessarily need religion to consistently forbid the destruction of existing human life.

            • smrnda

               Yeah, because women contribute nothing but offspring. It isn’t like I got 2 graduate degrees and work 60+ hours a week doing work that very few people are qualified to do. I mean, totally, if I got raped and become pregnant I would contribute so much more…

              Nobody should be fighting wars or having kids for the sake of the state. The state should exist for the welfare of those in it, not the other way around. I think ‘for the sake of the state’ is called Fascism.

              • Stev84

                Next step: award medals to women based on how many children they have

                • Coyotenose

                  Don’t forget the enormous “spontaneous” parades of pregnant women saluting the hundred-foot flag as they lockstep* by in rows to either side of a gargantuan kitchen-themed float.

                  *Barefoot, natch.

                • ImRike

                   Under Hitler, the state awarded  medals to women for having children (I don’t know how many you had to have to be eligible). My grandmother was awarded such a medal and she returned it, letting them know that she had children because she liked children, not because she wanted a medal.

                • Stev84

                  I know. That’s what I was referring to

              • http://ripeningreason.com/ Bix

                No kidding that sounds like Fascism. At this point, becoming a parent and serving in the military are both voluntary, and we’d better hope they stay that way. If not, it’s because we’re living through WWIII or some sort of terrible dystopia.

            • Patterrssonn

              “Naturally, being a Catholic myself, I believe abortion is a form of
              murder, so the civil reason I provided would not be the strongest
              consideration for me in saying that abortion is wrong”

              Interesting that your secular rational for forced pregnancies is that women should surrender their bodies to the state. Though a Catholic nursing a totalitarian fantasy about the control of women’s bodies isn’t terribly surprising.

            • Baby_Raptor

              That would only make sense if humanity was close to dying out. It’s not; the world is currently over-populated. We need less people, not more. 

              (No, I’m not advocating for limiting how many kids a couple can have. I’m saying we have enough people already, so that’s yet another reason forced birth is wrong.)

          • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

            I’m wager heart strings aren’t involved. More likely a constructed imperative to “control those damned sluts and the slutty slut sex they have with other men.”

        • Aaron

          We’re talking about LAWS here. Not reinforcement for the hypothetical soul, but REAL laws that affect living, breathing people. Who are you to make laws based on your religion? 

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Evans/1017276335 John Evans

          Should we make laws about vampires and unicorns, too?

          And if you believe ensoulment happens at conception, can you answer these questions? How many souls do twins have? If two, when does the second one show up? In the case of chimeric children, where two separately fertilized eggs fuse into one, does the resultant child have two souls? If not, why, and what happens to the other one? Do molar pregnancies – where a fertilized egg continues to divide, but not differentiate, so instead of a baby you get a tumor – have souls?

          • Bdafrica

             Yup, a major religion is just like vampires and unicorns.  Nice work.

            • http://twitter.com/InMyUnbelief TCC

              In an epistemic sense, yes. You’re new here, aren’t you?

              • Bdafrica

                Nope.

              • Coyotenose

                 He’s apparently new to the Interwebs, since he isn’t aware that it’s trivial for the blogger to get his IP address and confirm that he’s switching identities and lying again.

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Evans/1017276335 John Evans

              How many people have to worship Spongebob before we have to make laws that follow his teachings?

              • Bdafrica

                 i know, right?

            • The Other Weirdo

               Minor religions tend to be cults. The difference between the two is that, in a cult, there is one person who knows the whole thing is a scam. In a religion, this person is long-dead.

            • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

              How about cannibals and ghosts that rape women?

            • The Other Weirdo

               It’s worse, actually. Nobody sane actually believes in vampires or unicorns. Though there may be hope on the horizon. A judge in Florida recently declared a crazy guy with a god delusion sane enough to be executed because he felt that the man’s religious beliefs were too close to what supposedly sane Christians believe.

              • pagansister

                I think he is still on death row—as at the last minute he was given a reprieve —again.  He has been there 30 years or so.  I live in Florida.    Killed several folks, but if he can’t understand why he is being executed—then he can get away with it!  

            • Coyotenose

               Not precisely. *Belief* in a religion is like believing in vampires and unicorns.

              It’s kind of how you’re the same thing as Evertonian, who is the same thing as a proven liar.

        • Patterrssonn

          Thanks for coming clean on that NJ and admitting that your position has nothing to do with concern for the zygote/fetus, or the woman carrying it, but it’s simply to satisfy some arbitrary religious dogma.

        • Coyotenose

           If a person isn’t supposed to die from an ruptured appendix, it will heal naturally.

          See how that works?

          • Silentbob

            Indeed. I call on all of us with eyeglasses or contact lenses to throw them away. Work of the devil. We’re “supposed” to be unable to see.

          • RowanVT

             Awwwww man, does this mean I have to dig through year-old biomedical waste to get my appendix back so I can die from it?

        • pagansister

           Naturally, njew84, if aided by the morning after pill–then your daughter wouldn’t need to worry about what you thought about the possibility she might want to terminate. 

    • http://www.holytape.etsy.com Holytape

       Let’s not trivialize rape by calling it “someone’s poor decision.”  Rape is a violent criminal act.   It leaves both permanent emotional and physical scars.   Rape is not about sex, it’s about having power over someone else.   This leaves the victim with a profound sense of powerlessness.   The last thing, I would ever want to do is then take away her choice, especially over her own body.

      If the victim wants to carry out the pregnancy.  Fine.   If the victim wants to end the pregnancy.  Fine.   It is absolutely no one else’s business. 

      • Baby_Raptor

        It *is* somebody’s poot decision to these folks…It’s always the woman’s fault. Remember, she wanted it. She was tempting in the way she dressed, she teased him, she didn’t yell loud enough…

        I need to go shower now just from having typed that.

        • Deven Kale

          You forget that womens bodies can “shut that whole thing down” if they don’t want to get pregnant too. You know, so they can’t actually get pregnant unless they want to.

      • CelticWhisper

         It is not trivial, and it is also someone’s poor decision – the rapist’s, to be precise.

        Unfortunately, not all rapists find out the hard way just how poor their decision was.  And by “the hard way” I mean “a nail bat to the spine.”

        • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

          The spine is not where I’d be aiming…

          • Deven Kale

             Oh no, if you want to mess with a mans “pride,” don’t be so direct. It’s FAR more effective to let him keep his bits, but not able to use them. A nail-bat to the spine, properly applied, would cause him to be paralyzed from the waist down, rendering it useless for anything but urination.

            Then again, it could also kill him, so I wouldn’t recommend actually doing it. Actually, I wouldn’t really recommend it anyway because it’s just a nasty thing to do, and I don’t think anybody would deserve to have anything like that done to them.

            Fantasize all you want though. ;)

            • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

               I was thinking, specifically, of my ex. And yes, he deserves it — and worse — for the things he did to me.

    • Stephanie Bowker

      So basically you value your daughter’s fetus more than you value her well-being. Glad I’m not your kid.

      • njew84

        I love my daughter and if she decided to abort I would love her no less than if she kept it. However, I would make sure I went through several senerios and help her fully understand the repercussions for both decisions she would eventually make. I am pro-life but I would support my daughters decision.

        • http://twitter.com/eshowoman Friday Foster-ABWW

          Why don’t you start with the fact that in 34 states rapists can file for visitation or custody. How would you like your daughter to go through this:
           http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/08/22/raped-pregnant-and-sued-for-custody-one-womans-horrific-story/
          or this
          http://abcnews.go.com/US/massachusetts-rapist-seeks-visitation-victims-child/story?id=17349095#.UIk8_rtawVM

          • Brianna

             Sounds terrible, but I think this is a completely different problem.

            • Earl G.

              “completely different” as in “unavoidably related and a gigantic problem with my position on this issue”

              Fixed it for you.

        • NoDoubtAboutIt

          If she’s a smart girl she won’t be talking to you at all.

          • Bdafrica

            Plus one again!  Smart girls don’t talk to stupid parents.  Spreading the love.

        • Envy Burger

          So you want abortion to be illegal, but you would allow your daughter a choice.  Above you say that you want abortion to be relegated, which means your daughter would not get a choice.  Somebody else would have to prove that she was raped, decide the rape was “legitimate” enough and then decide whether she should be allowed an abortion or not.  That isn’t giving her a choice.  Nor would it happen, because all of this would probably take years, giving absolutely no chance of a choice.

          Do women get a choice or don’t they?  Make up your mind.

          I actually don’t think you realize how hypocritical you are within each statement you make.

        • nakedanthropologist

          “Honey, I love you.  And even though you were just violently violated by one or more perpetrators shoving their penises in your body, and you may never recover from the mental, emotional, or physical scars…this is a gift from God!”  Stephanie is correct, I’m so glad I’m not your kid, and I feel true pity for your daughter. 

        • Silentbob

          So, basically you’re saying you would support you’re daughters choice, but would like her to have no choice.

    • https://twitter.com/OffensivAtheist Bismarket

      A “Person” is in NO WAY being killed & you using inflammatory language doesn’t make it so. It is a collection of cells, no more or less. With the advances being made in cloning, it’s possible (to borrow a quote) that you commit Genocide whenever you blow your nose. Are you one of those folk that believe a soul is inserted along with the sperm as it enters the egg? 

      • Anonymous

        I’m a pro-choice atheist. I hate this “collection of cells” argument though. Everybody is just a collection of cells.

        • Koltirasrip

           A dividing fertilized egg is literally a blob of cells.  It doesn’t even divide into subsystems until a while after it implants itself into the uterine wall.  We may all be collections of cells, but a fully-grown adult is fundamentally different from the zygote being referred to.

        • Bdafrica

           Thanks Anonymous.  I agree.

        • http://twitter.com/InMyUnbelief TCC

          The point of saying “just a collection of cells” is to note that there is no supervenient quality beyond the collection of cells in the way that there is when you have tissue differentiation, a nervous system capable of pain, and a neural network capable of consciousness. If you scrape some cells off of my foot, they are just a collection of cells, not a foot or a person; in the same way, a blastocyst or embryo is not a person, although (under the right conditions, some environmental and some internal) it might possibly gain some of those important supervenient qualities.

          • Bdafrica

            Good points TCC.

        • smrnda

           Would you argue that ‘stack of bricks’ and ‘building’ are the same?

        • https://twitter.com/OffensivAtheist Bismarket

          Apologies for the delay in responding. I was going to make the same argument as TCC but a lot less eloquently, so basically “What he said”. I do like the diversity of opinion between Atheists though, i think it’s what keeps us healthy.☮

        • https://twitter.com/OffensivAtheist Bismarket

          double post, please ignore.

    • Jinx

      This life is the only life we all get, but that does not mean that the pro-life position is correct.

      You focus on the “innocent child” much more than you do the innocent rape victim. It is almost akin to psychological torture to go through nine months of pregnancy (while still experiencing all of the emotional changes resulting from pregnancy) if you have been raped. I have certainly heard of some women who have done this, but I believe that it is a terrible idea to legislate that all rape victims must carry out their pregnancies to full term. This is the sort of thing that drives people to suicide.

      If “that baby had been me,” I do not think that I would be able to tell you that I had any regrets. I wouldn’t have had any consciousness or knowledge of what had happened. I wouldn’t have felt sad, happy, or any emotion at all.

      While you obviously intended the analogy about your daughter to bolster your cause, I find it to be somewhat disturbing. You said that in no way would you want her to have an abortion; for the purposes of our discussion, what if she *did* want to have an abortion? Would you do everything in your power to help your daughter recover from the trauma of rape, or would you do everything in your power to “save” her fetus? You  would soon find that this isn’t really a multiple choice question.

      Of course, I don’t believe that you are a bad parent or a bad person. What I said above was meant solely for the purpose of challenging you intellectually; it is not an ad hominem attack, and I would ask that you not take it personally.

      • njew84

        If my daughter were to be raped I would encourage her to keep it but I wouldn’t put a gun to my child’s head and tell her have it or die. Also I wouldn’t expect any of you to understand seeing how you don’t believe we have a soul. From my perspective if the “fetus” isn’t supposed to be born(yes I do believe everything happens for a reason, crazy I know) it will pass away naturally. If it is supposed to be born it will unless someone interferes with nature. As for the emotional scaring, the damage is done and having a child is the most wonderful miracles of life. I personally would rather have my daughter live with the decision that she at least gave the “fetus” a chance to live than having to live with the decision to abort and wonder, “what if?”

        • Vanadise

          If a fetus is “supposed” to be born, does that mean your daughter was “supposed” to be raped?  At what point did God enter the decision-making process?  Is he just winging it up until the moment of conception, at which time he says, “Whoa there, no more free will for you, this is pre-ordained from this point on”?

          • njew84

            Just because God knows all doesn’t mean he causes all. He didn’t force this hypothetically rapist to commit rape on my daughter, that was the rapists decision. Yes he knew it would happen, therefor it was meant to happen.

            • Vanadise

              So he knew it was going to happen but did nothing to stop it?  I have to say that a god that knows I’m going to get raped but does nothing to prevent it and then expects me to give birth to the rapist’s baby does not sound like a god I’d want to worship.

              • njew84

                Wouldn’t life be wonderful if God could just allow nothing bad to happen to us? Wouldn’t it be great to have no pain? No RAPE! Wake up call, that life does exist, and it’s not this life! WAKE UP!

                • Vanadise

                  Yes, it would be wonderful if there was a benevolent, omnipotent God who wanted to protect us.

                  I’m sure sure what you’re shouting at me for, it is already perfectly obvious to me that there is no such thing.

                • Entertaining Doubts

                   So you’re saying that the universe behaves exactly as if there were no omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent god? Hmmm….

                • Coyotenose

                   osnap

                • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

                  *offers popcorn*

                • Aaron

                  *cause

                • http://twitter.com/FelyxLeiter Felyx Leiter

                  WAKE UP!

                  Wow.  PLEASE take your own advice.

                • Patterrssonn

                  Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could arbitrarily decide what god wants or doesn’t want based on our personal needs. We could call it Christianity.

                • Bdafrica

                   Nice use of arbitrarily.  Let’s throw in Islam, Judaism, maybe Buddhism and offend a few more hundred million people.  Yay!

                • Stev84

                  All of a sudden you care if people are offended? Oh I get it. It only matters if it’s so-called “deeply held religious beliefs ” that are offended. Otherwise religionists can do and say whatever they want.

                • Bdafrica

                   Nice jump.  Talking about religions arbitrarily deciding whatever they want to putting words in someone else’s mouths.  +10.

                • Coyotenose

                  This coming from someone who was shown to be trying to change the subject while at the same time complaining about others’ choice of subjects…

                • Patterrssonn

                  I didn’t realize this blog was that popular.

                • The Other Weirdo

                   All religions, their beliefs and practices, are arbitrary. There is no reason for the Imperial Planetoid Dahak to be the size of the moon, but it was an arbitrary decision by the author of those books to make it so. So it is with religions and all their trappings.

                • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

                  I don’t give a fuck if I offend you or a million other people if you or that million are making life decisions informed by beliefs entirely bereft of evidence. ESPECIALLY if those decisions hurt other people. So suck it up, buttercups.

                • ImRike

                   ‘ From my perspective if the “fetus” isn’t supposed to be born(yes I do
                  believe everything happens for a reason, crazy I know) it will pass away
                  naturally. If it is supposed to be born it will unless someone
                  interferes with nature.’
                  ‘If it is supposed to be born’ – does that mean god wants it to be born?
                  ‘unless someone interferes with nature’ – so that means god wants it to be born, but if I interfere ‘with nature’,  it will not be born – in other words, I have power over the will of god? Very interesting!

                • Isilzha

                  There IS no other life.

            • Walldodger

              Reaally !!!????  woman will you grow some brain cells you are talking like you know every  hair on Santa’s beard …. Saying  God  allows this … God knows that….Grow  the Frick up…. saying  you value  the sperm of  the rapist cause it banged your daughters egg, and that was Gods will!!! I am getting sooooo pissed at  the wonderful intellectualism BS that  is being  thrown about this discussion…. NOT…. It  was a RAPE!!! and NOBODY SHOULD HAVE THE FRICKIN POWER  TO FORCE A WOMAN…GIRL… DAUGHTER…MOTHER…AUNT… TO CARRY IT TO TERM….. DAMN UYOU HAVE UPSET ME WITH YOUR CONVOLUTED  RELIGIOUS bULLSHIT

              • njew84

                If I put myself in your shoes I can totally understand your feelings. If didn’t believe in God I would feel the exact same way. I would worry about me and mine first too. You see when we are talking about the victim, we are really putting ourselves in that persons shoes and making a decision based on how it would affect us. An atheist would have no reason to choose a “fetus” life over their own but a Christian who believes in God and a better life to come absolutely would have reason to put someone else’s life before their own because there is something much better beyond this life.

                • Baby_Raptor

                  Yeah. While you christianists are stomping all over people and their rights to make sure everyone follows your religion, us Atheists-the actual good people-are down here worrying about the here and now, because the here and now is where people are living and hurting. 

                  And you guys just keep pouring the suffering on, in the name of getting to some fantasy heaven after you die. 

                  Frankly, the god of the bible is despicable. I’d rather rot in hell than worship him and spend eternity surrounded by people who think THAT is holy, good and worthy of praise.

                • Aaron

                  So you don’t want it to be an act of goodwill to carry the baby after a rape. You want it to be mandated, and you’ll tromp over everyone’s rights just to support your own.

                  Yeah. REALLY sounds like you’re putting others before yourself.

                  Not.

                • Patterrssonn

                  ” You see when we are talking about the victim, we are really putting
                  ourselves in that persons shoes and making a decision based on how it
                  would affect us.”

                  No you’re not, you’re forcing that person to abide by you’re political beliefs, using religious dogma as an excuse.

                • Stev84

                  You’re the one who thinks that the creator of the universe cares about what you do and has some special plan just for you. You have no business accusing other people of being selfish.

                • AxeGrrl

                  Why did you put the word fetus in quotes?

                  Do you think it’s some kind of nickname or something?

                • Silentbob

                  An atheist would have no reason to choose a “fetus” life over their own but a Christian who believes in God and a better life to come absolutely would have reason to put someone else’s life before their own because there is something much better beyond this life.

                  Well if you put it that way… it sounds like aborting a foetus is doing it a favour.

            • The Other Weirdo

               But you can say that about anything. God knew that you were going to get incurable cancer and die, so who are you to go against God’s will by seeking medical help, undergoing chemo or surgery or what have you.

              God knew that the pregnancy was going to fail and cause a stillbirth, so who are you to try and keep it alive.

              God knew you were going to step unto the street on a green pedestrian light and get hit by a drunk driver, so who are you to look both ways before crossing the road.

              God knew you were going to meet a girl that Friday night and get her pregnant accidentally, so who are you to decide to stay home to watch Castle reruns instead of going to that bar with your friends like you planned.

              All these things, according to you, could be meant to happen, so who are we to do anything at all?

              • Foster

                The difference lies in that in each of your examples, the option that (most likely) results in a better outcome is not seen by anyone to be evil, whereas rape is evil, as is killing a human life simply for one’s personal convenience.  Who are we to do anything at all?  We are free agents with consciences capable of rationally considering the harm or good our actions can do.

                • smrnda

                  But wouldn’t the aborted rape fetus go straight to heaven?

                • Stev84
                • The Other Weirdo

                  But here’s the thing: we’re not talking about what’s seen by people. We’re talking about supposed God’s supposed plan. If it’s God’s plan to Call You Home(tm) by squashing you with a drunk driver, who are you look both ways before crossing?

                  God will separate children from their parents via breast cancer, prostate cancer, heart disease, drunk drivers, freaks with machine guns or even lighting strikes. They are in a better place, we’re told, God has called them home.

                  Yet people get squeamish over abortions or birth control, as though, somehow, that couldn’t possibly ever, nuh uh, not ever, nyet, also be in God’s hideous plan for the human race.

                  There’s a scene in the Avengers movie where Loki is almost orgasming during a God-am-I speech in front of  a crowd in Germany. It occurred to me then that, for all that it’s fiction, he’s the perfect metaphor for the supposedly good god that billions of people worship. Capricious, brutal, arrogant, uncaring, unfeeling for anything but himself, stupid, brutish and lacking any sort of self-control or even the basics of pity, compassion or morality.

                  And just like Loki doesn’t have the right to judge us, neither do the followers of that puny god billions of people world-over worship. They know no more than the rest of us, and their holier-than-thou-so-bow-to-my-beliefs ways are disgusting.

                • Coyotenose

                   Killing a small bundle of mindless cells, resulting in continuing good health and finances = tremendous good. Thanks for playing.

                  You do know that every time you frame it as “convenience”, you are trivializing and demeaning women?

                  You do, right?

                • Isilzha

                   The “convenience” thing just make me want to thump people upside the head…HARD!

                • Envy Burger

                  Trivializing and demeaning women is part of the daily Catholic routine.

                  They just decide it’s a good thing and call it “True Feminism.”

            • Aaron

              Can you give some evidence as to how a being knows something is going to happen, is all-powerful, yet does not cause said thing to happen?

              Sorry, it just seems wonderfully convenient.

              • Bdafrica

                 huh?    What is the being just doesn’t care?  What if the being has a greater purpose in mind?  What if what is going to happen is good?  What is what is going to happen will bring about good?  What if the being is inherently ‘evil’?

                • RobertoTheChi

                  What if….what if…what if…

                • Coyotenose

                   All of those are irrelevant. The unavoidable consequence of omnipotence and omniscience is that everything is your doing. Did you miss an Apologetics class, EC?

            • Patterrssonn

              “Just because God knows all doesn’t mean he causes all”

              ” Yes he knew it would happen, therefor it was meant to happen.”

              I think maybe it’s time to give up when you start contradicting yourself within a single paragraph. It’s unfortunate but logic just isn’t god’s friend.

              • Bdafrica

                Is knowing all causing all?  If something is ‘meant’ to happen (idea of destiny) does it mean a supernatural being was involved?  I can have knowledge of destiny without causing it, and destiny can still exist on its own.

                Besides Patterrssonn, why are you arguing with someone who can’t spell ‘therefore’ correctly?

                • Patterrssonn

                  I’m sorry I don’t get your point. You seem to be replying to my posts without taking into account the context of my posts being replies to someone else’s posts. Is this an error on your part or are you just trolling me?

                • Bdafrica

                   You said he contradicted himself, I disagreed.  Don’t think it’s an error, unless you want to point it out.

                • Patterrssonn

                  OK then you’re just not understanding my argument.

                • Bdafrica

                  Or you’re giving up.  That’s ok, we both know where these arguments on the net go.  Take care of your self, Patterrssonn.

                • Patterrssonn

                  OK I’ll bite

                • Patterrssonn

                  First off NJ is referring to “God” when he uses the phrase “meant to happen”, so yes in the context of this discussion we are assuming the involvement of a supernatural being.

                  NJ argues that if god knows something will happen then he means it to happen. And if god is omnipotent, how can what god means to happen not happen? Also, if god is all knowing, then, according to NJ’s argument, everything that happens is meant to happen. The contradiction is that NJ starts by arguing that

                  “Just because God knows all doesn’t mean he causes all”

                  But if NJ’s third statement is true, that everything god has knowledge of, god means to happen, by god knowing all god causes all.

                • Deven Kale

                   It’s real simple bd. Imagine you know that a serious crime is going to happen. Something that will severely traumatize the victim for the rest of their life, but is necessary in order for 5 or 10 people to have a better life. If you do nothing to stop it does that make you a good person or a bad person?

                  I can tell you what’s been decided on by Americans: It would make you a bad person. It’s called being part of a conspiracy (I’m not fully sure of the technical term), and you’re just as guilty as the person who committed the actual crime.

                  This is exactly the way that I view your god. If he exists, he’s just as guilty as the actual criminal for every single crime which has ever been committed in the history of mankind. This means he’s just as worthy of vilification as Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and every other criminal, ever, combined. So yes, even if he did exist, I see no good reason to worship a being such as that.

                • ImRike

                   So why can’t we just as well say that if I get an abortion, ‘it was meant to happen’? god knew that I was going to get an abortion, so I better get one, to keep him on the right track!
                  That’s the point we’re trying to make: How do you know what god knows? If I find myself pregnant and carry the baby to term, then god must have known that I would do that. If I get an abortion, then he must have known I would do that.
                  But how do YOU know which of the two he knows? How can you tell me that god meant for me to carry the child to term, when he could rather have meant for me to get an abortion? Are you saying that all abortions that have happened since the beginning of time were NOT meant  to happen, but people are more powerful than god and got the abortions anyway? Make up your mind! Don’t you see you can’t have it both ways?
                  Well, I guess YOU can, it’s just god who can’t!

            • Birdie1986

              So, the rapist gets to decide whether to rape your daughter, but your daughter doesn’t get to decide whether to allow the fertilization of her egg to result in the development of a child?  The hypocrisy of Christians is just so ridiculous.  Free will when it suits you, and God’s will when it suits you.  Ugh.

              • Stev84

                You begin to understand it when you realize that they see STDs and pregnancy and rightful punishments for sex. Any kind of sexual activity needs to have some form of punishment – especially for women. And rape is just another form of sex. They honestly don’t distinguish between consensual and non-consensual sex. It’s all just sexual immorality for them. That’s also why they equate gay sex with pedophilia and bestiality.

            • Coyotenose

               Do you realize that if  a man rapes a woman, thus taking away her ability to act and choose freely, God has SIDED with the rapist, by setting up a scenario where rapists have more free will than rape victims? He has most assuredly forced the situation by religious logic.

              Also, most conceptions are lost before the woman even finds out that she is or could have been pregnant. The point of that plan, please?

            • Silentbob

              Just because God knows all doesn’t mean he causes all. He didn’t force this hypothetically rapist to commit rape on my daughter, that was the rapists decision. Yes he knew it would happen, therefor it was meant to happen.

              You’re hopelessly contradicting yourself. If your daughter aborts, that is her decision. By your reasoning, God knew it would happen, therefore it was meant to happen.

        • Koltirasrip

           Not every woman thinks having some strange man’s spooge floating around in her body is a good thing.  Not every woman wants to be a mother.  Not every woman wants to go through 9 months of carrying a developing parasite that will not only endanger her health in many cases (chronic gestational hypertension, gestational diabetes, chronic pain, UTIs, nausea, not being able to sleep on your back due to later-days of the pregnancy putting pressure on large blood vessels, not to mention the risks alone involving birth) but is a detriment to her being able to live her life normally, during and after the pregnancy.

          Bringing a life into the world is a crazy insane thing.  Not everyone wants to go through with it, and it shouldn’t be anyone’s decision but the woman in question what to do with the ‘thing.’

        • Jett Perrobone

          From my perspective if the “fetus” isn’t supposed to be born(yes I do
          believe everything happens for a reason, crazy I know) it will pass away
          naturally. If it is supposed to be born it will unless someone
          interferes with nature.

          So from your perspective, if a pregnant woman doesn’t get a Caesarian section that she needs for her foetus to be born and survive (which would be “interfering with nature” as you say), and as a consequence the foetus dies, then that foetus was never meant to be born?

        • Roadside

          “As for the emotional scaring, the damage is done and having a child is the most wonderful miracles of life.”

          Really? The scars can remain a lifetime, the child can be scarred knowing it is born of rape and can cause a lifetime of pain. There is so much here it seems you fail to consider and dismiss to your convenience. When you suggest if it’s meant to be it will pass naturally, yes sometimes our bodies make that decision but we live in a world that has made many medical advances and circumstances in life that we have not dealt with in the past. Crazy I know, but since you believe everything happens for a reason then why is it that now we can not also let our minds decide when a pregnancy isn’t optimal for us? Why are just our bodies allowed to decide and not our minds?

          You suggest that atheists are trying to spread laws as a response to the religious beliefs you would like legislated, however I must point out that the two are not the same. You want to demand that everyone live as you would have them live, by your religious beliefs, where as an atheist wants people to live according to their own beliefs. Abortion is the best example, you want no one to have one where as an atheist is not legislating to force anyone to have an abortion. There is a big difference there that you seem to be missing and it’s called choice. 

        • http://atheistlutheran.blogspot.com/ MargueriteF

          “If my daughter were to be raped I would encourage her to keep it but I wouldn’t put a gun to my child’s head and tell her have it or die.”

          This seems like an intellectually incoherent argument. You’re saying your daughter has the right to make up her mind on the subject, but elsewhere you refer to a fetus as a “baby” and a “person.” If one kills a person, that’s murder. Should we be allowed the right to decide if we want to murder someone or not? Is murder okay?

          If you believe your daughter should have the right to make up her mind on the subject, as you apparently do, then you would seem to be acknowledging that this is not murder, and that a fetus is not in fact a person, ethically or legally.

          • Bdafrica

             Which is totally what happens, with the gun.  Totally happens.

            • Patterrssonn

              ??

            • RobertoTheChi

              Huh?

        • Aaron

          So I take it you don’t go to hospitals, then? Hospitals interfere with nature because they allow people to live who otherwise wouldn’t. This means if you go to a doctor, you are interfering with nature. 

          Besides, she can always have a baby at a later date with a man who she actually loves.

        • Tak

           “As for the emotional scaring, the damage is done and having a child is
          the most wonderful miracles of life. I personally would rather have my
          daughter live with the decision that she at least gave the “fetus” a
          chance to live than having to live with the decision to abort and
          wonder, “what if?””

          So as I keep reading, njew seems to be saying, ‘Well…I wouldn’t force her to keep the product of her RAPE but I would do everything in my power to guilt her into keeping the product of her RAPE in her body and growing it into a person who will forever remind her of the worst experience of her life when she’s already in a horribly psychologically fragile space.’

          Sickening. I bet njew is a man too. That would be so very typical.

        • smrnda

          “The damage is done” yeah, I mean, it’s so much easier to put rape behind you if you’re going to be pregnant with the rapist’s baby and then have a kid. You get to relive your rape every time someone asks who the father is or how a single woman ended up with a kid. Yeah, I would love to have to constantly disclose the fact that I was raped to total strangers all the time.

          Maybe you think having a child is a wonderful miracle and if you got raped you would be happy to tell the world about how you chose to have your rapist’s baby, but I sure wouldn’t. I also know that I would be incapable of loving a child that was forced on me by a rapist.

          I’m sure if some nuns had smacked some nonsense into me at a  young age I’d just think “wow, I’m having a baby!”

        • Isilzha

           Yes, how wonderful to force your daughter to keep a baby conceived from rape as a forever reminder of that event.  How wonderful for the child to grow up knowing that he is punishment inflicted on his mother for her “sin”.  I can see how so much joy can come from forcing this on rape victims. 

          OH, and then…how much MORE joy everyone will have when the rapist sues for parental rights!  Yay!  Then the woman can never escape her attacker!  Bah…but what does a woman matter anyway.  She means nothing!  She’s just a baby factory.

      • Bdafrica

         “This life is the only life we all get”.  Again, the people you are arguing against don’t believe this.  It changes everything.

        • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

          Sure, and their beliefs are utter bullshit.

        • Coyotenose

           He was referencing the original Christian poster’s own argument. Jesus Christ.

          • Patterrssonn

            I wonder if he realized that by changing her/his name from Bdafrica to Brianna, it would also change the name on all his/her previous posts. Or did s/he think they could post as a different person.

    • Sailor

       Poor daughter! How about letting her make up her own mind…

    • machintelligence

      What a wonderful way to reward the rapist for his efforts and to assure that his genes will be carried on in the gene pool of the future. */snark*

      If there were such a thing as a curse that can be handed down through the generations, this is it.

      • Bdafrica

         Right, because as most pro-choice people argue, genes make rapists, not society.

        • The Other Weirdo

           Who says that? Genetics can certainly make you predisposed to certain behaviours, but I don’t know if that means that only genetics makes people do things.

          • Bdafrica

             Sorry, guess that was a sarcasm fail.

            • The Other Weirdo

               That was sarcasm? Wow! I’ve never seen it done better.

              • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

                *Golf Clap* :-)

              • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

                *snerk*

                *knowing nod*

    • Claire

      Until this situation happens (I hope it never does), you can’t really theorized what will happen. I feel in your argument you are also forgetting about your daughter. Rape and any kind of sexual harassment is devastating. It wasn’t her choice to be raped, so thinking that it is a poor choice would be just add on to the guilt and shame she could, and probably, feel.

      • The Other Weirdo

         Let’s not conflate rape and sexual harassment. They are not the same thing, and one does not automatically follow the other.

        • Earl G.

          You do know the word “and” does not imply conflation, right?

    • Baby_Raptor

      Nobody is arguing that babies shouldn’t be allowed to live. A zygote is not a baby. Nor is an embryo, or an early term fetus. “Baby” has a meaning, and you’re not using it correctly. People who are way smarter than you, and are actually educated in the matter, have stated that life does not begin at conception. 

      When you get raped and face pregnancy, you can talk about what people should and shouldn’t do. Until then, shut your mouth. And stop trying to force women who don’t hold your view to live by it. that’s YOUR belief. Not mine. And the fact that you feel perfectly okay forcing me to live by it anyway says exactly how horrible a person you are. Pond scum is better.

      Lastly, if I had been aborted, why would I have cared? I’d never have been sentient, and I’d never be sentient. It wouldn’t matter.

      • Bdafrica

         Moral relativism will self destruct if you take it far enough.  There are certain beliefs that should be forced on others (those often become law).  You would not argue for anarchy, right? 

        • Stev84

          And of course those beliefs are all the ones written in the Bible and the beliefs of other people don’t matter.

          • Bdafrica

             Who said anything about the Bible?  Just wondering if your beliefs are in conflict with another ones beliefs, say in having sex with minors, then do we just say, “whatever feels good”?

            • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=705066677 Desiree Bell-Fowlks

              It may feel good for the adult, but minors can not give consent legally.  Sex with minors is hurtful because of the power imbalance and the harm to the minor’s emotional and mental wellbeing.

              • Bdafrica

                Thanks Desiree, I agree. Was using that as an example to show that the argument didn’t stand.  

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=705066677 Desiree Bell-Fowlks

                  Yet abortion is disputable because there is no factual basis that a fetus is a person.  There is proof that minors are harmed by sex with adults.

                • Bdafrica

                   People would disagree with this.

                • Stev84

                  People also disagree with your views on abortions. But that doesn’t matter to you.

                • Bdafrica

                   huh?  As a pro choice person I want Desiree to dig deeper, and then Stev84 says….?

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=705066677 Desiree Bell-Fowlks

                  Disagree with harm done by an adult having sex with minors?  Are you serious?

                • Bdafrica

                   No, the factual basis that a fetus is a human.  If people disagree on this the argument changes.

                • The Other Weirdo

                   Of course people disagree with onthis.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=705066677 Desiree Bell-Fowlks

                  No it does not.  I could care less if you think a fetus is a person.  The only opinion that matters is the one getting the abortion.  I do not think it is a fetus.  That is the only opinion that matters if I chose to have an abortion.

            • Stev84

              Again, Christians having the nerve to say that atheists don’t have morals when they can’t come up with a non-religious reason for why having sex with minors is wrong.

            • Coyotenose

               This has been explained to you multiple times in earlier threads. You’re still a sorry, shoddy liar.

            • Isilzha

               CONSENT…there’s the fucking concept of CONSENT you idiotic bitch.

            • The Other Weirdo

               Is there a prohibition in the Bible against having sex with minors?

        • Patterrssonn

          You’re slippery sloping on us now. Morality is something we created and are constantly modifying. We will never have a moral code that serves the interests of everyone until we cut it loose from dogma.

          • Bdafrica

             Maybe,  maybe not.

            • Patterrssonn

              How “maybe not”?

              • Bdafrica

                If a certain dogma is true or beneficial for society you don’t have to mess with it.  “do unto others”….

                • Patterrssonn

                  Except that the golden rule isn’t dogma but a philosophical statement that while promulgated by religions also has secular origins and so exists independent of dogma. This is a beautiful example of a moral code that is functional and secular and serves everyone, especially if paired with the silver rule.

                • Bdafrica

                   Yeah, there’s definitely some truth there.  Don’t know why you put ‘except’ at the beginning though.

            • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=705066677 Desiree Bell-Fowlks

              We are ignoring dogma against homosexuality, science, and women’s rights for the better.  What dogma is beneficial to those that do not believe?

              • Bdafrica

                Dogma that is good.

                • Stev84

                  More empty, meaningless platitudes

                • Bdafrica

                  Guess that ends that discussion.

                • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

                  Yeah, you’re pretty good at that.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=705066677 Desiree Bell-Fowlks

                  What dogma?  Be specific.

        • Deven Kale

           Why is it that I’m always seeing people insinuating this false dichotomy of Moral Absolutism or Moral Relativism”? Do you seriously not know that there are many different ethical frameworks than these? Even more confusing is that those who purport to follow Moral Absolutism don’t actually follow it.

          In Moral Absolutism, there is at least one act which is the absolute worst, and yet none of you who supposedly follow it are ever able to answer what that act is. It’s not Moral Absolutism that you follow at all, it’s Situational Ethics, which just happens to be the same ethical framework that most atheists that I’ve spoken with follow as well.

        • Baby_Raptor

          No, I wouldn’t argue for anarchy. What does anarchy have to do with womens’ bodily autonomy, and their right to not have their lives controlled by men?

    • Patterrssonn

      Well for one thing that baby couldn’t be me because I’m already born. For another, I’ll believe a zygote is a person when I see someone pushing one down the street in a stroller. And finally, no woman should have to endure a forced pregnancy, especially as this is the only life we have.

      And also if the pro forced pregnancy camp starts campaigning and protesting against things that increase the risk of miscarriage, the big one being air pollution in urban areas. the. I’ll start to concede that maybe they are actually concerned with the welfare of the “preborn” and not simply a campaign of tyranny over the bodies of women.

      Not that their arguments would be any more valid but at least a fraction less hypocritical.

      • Bdafrica

        Making arguments based on presuppositions many of the religious do not share. “This is the only life we have”.  Of course if you believe that it will guide your decision in this.  Others don’t believe that.  How do you respect their belief and move forward?

        • The Other Weirdo

           This is the irreconcilable difference between atheists and theists. This isn’t something that you can just respect and move forward, since they don’t return the favour. Besides, this is a euphemism for “let’s just accept their point of view as being true and move forward.” Except, that’s not moving forward.

          • Bdafrica

             A good point.

        • Patterrssonn

          If you read the post I’m replying to you’ll understand the reference.

          • Bdafrica

            Comment still stands. 

            • Patterrssonn

              NJ tried to argue that atheists should be against abortion as we believe that we only have one life, I was simply responding to this use. Do you think I shouldn’t have responded to his argument?

        • Stev84

          By “Respect their beliefs and move forward” you really mean “Knuckle under and let us establish our theocracy so we can ruin the world and make everyone miserable”

          Btw, people may deserve respect. Beliefs don’t. Especially not religious ones.

          • Bdafrica

             Exactly what I meant.    People deserve respect but beliefs don’t?  Nice, may want to examine that one.

            • Stev84

              No, I don’t. Why should I respect absurd religious beliefs? Why should I respect something that is completely illogical and has no proof whatsoever? Why should I respect beliefs that harm millions of people?

              We criticize all kinds of opinion all the time. Yet somehow religion is supposed to be different. When you say that you just want to put religion on a pedestal and artificially shield it from criticism.

              • Bdafrica

                 What are you respecting in people if not their beliefs?  Their muscles, their looks? I was responding to your LARGE statement that people may deserve respect (for…?) and beliefs don’t. 

                You shouldn’t respect something illogical.

                Why is religion supposed to be different?

                All these statements at the end!….

                • Vanadise

                  I respect people for their actions.  Do good things and I’ll respect you regardless of what deities you believe exist — but that doesn’t mean I won’t still think those deities are silly.

                • Bdafrica

                   And who defines what those good things are?  Don’t you arrive at those–somehow–via your beliefs?  Or do you have none and you are just ‘acting’?

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=705066677 Desiree Bell-Fowlks

                  The stupid theist question on where atheists get their morals from if it’s not from god.  We get it from natural empathy for others and society.  As long as your actions do not negatively affects others your beliefs are yours, but do not force them on others who do not believe, nor do we have to respect those beliefs.

                • Bdafrica

                   It’s a great question regardless of where it comes from!  Once we start treating the question, “Where do you get your morals from” lightly, society is in for trouble.  Even the theists should be challenged to define their God/Gods if they pick their  morality from them.  We atheists should also be ready to defend our beliefs and where they come from (why they are the way they are).

                • Isilzha

                   NO, it’s not a great question at all. 

                • Stev84

                   Going on up

                  It’s a stupid question because it has been answered a thousand times already. And because the obvious implication is “atheists are just a bunch of immoral heathens”. That’s what you are really saying.

                • Coyotenose

                   It’s been explained to you numerous times. Time to just flag everything as spam again, since you’re lying, ignoring what’s been discussed before, and merely repeating yourself again.

                • Patterrssonn

                  I agree with Vanadise, I respect people according to their behaviour, and I respect/disrespect beliefs only so much as they inform that behaviour.

                • Bdafrica

                   Vanadise contradicted herself, see original post.

                • Patterrssonn

                  I did, I just rephrased Vanadise. How did she contradict herself?

                • Isilzha

                   Eh, you’re right screw that…I no longer respect your right to exist on this planet. 

            • Isilzha

               So, you’d respect my belief in the invisible pink unicorn?  You’d respect it even if I told you that the invisible pink unicorn demanded you to sacrifice the pinky finger of your right hand?  THE INVISIBLE PINK UNICORN DEMANDS YOUR PINKY…WHY AREN’T YOU RESPECTING MY BELIEFS?????

    • Johnsdeals

      ‘because someone made a poor decision’…Many rapists are mentally ill or drug addicts. Poor decision…your delusional, and I pity your daughter. 

    • Tak

      I work in mental health and having seen it over and over again I can tell you one thing for certain:  Sexual abuse is the single most psychologically damaging thing you can do to a person. When a person is raped, it violates them in the core of their being and messes up their sense of self. The very idea that anyone would force a victim of sexual abuse to voluntarily CONTINUE the abuse (oh you don’t think there’s anything sexually abusive about forcing someone to carry an unwanted person in their reproductive organs and passing it through your vagina?) is abhorrent.

      Not to mention the psychological fallout of finding out you were the product of rape. That’s a really fun conversation and won’t mess anyone up at all… riiiiight…

      You sicken me njew84 and I really hope you’re a POE.

    • RobertoTheChi

      YOU do not get to make that decision for ANYONE but yourself!

      • The Other Weirdo

         Except those in your care, and those decisions are supposed to be made for them, not for yourself. Just thought I’d point that out.

    • RobertoTheChi

      I am so happy that my mother was nothing like you are.

    • cipher

      Why do you care about a baby’s’ “only shot at life”? You believe a fetus is  endowed with an immortal soul, and with the world being what it is, if brought to term and allowed to grow into an adult there’s an overwhelming chance it will end up in hell. Conversely, if aborted it will go straight to heaven without ever having to suffer, in this life or in the next. Sounds like a good deal to me.

      What’s really going on here is that you have a sentimental view of reality that  you’ve mistaken for “God’s will”.

    • smrnda

       If I found out I was the product of a rape, then I would agree that my mother would have been right to abort me.

      And innocent person rhetoric – seriously, we might be talking a zygote here.

    • Coyotenose

       - “The importance of letting a baby live…”
      Fetuses and embryos are not babies.

      - “That child…”
      They are also not children.

      - “Innocent children deserve a shot at life too!”
      They are not children.
      And why do they, precisely? You can’t treat something that isn’t as sentient as an earthworm unethically.

      - “remember that baby could have been you!”
        Again, not a baby. And if I had not been born, I would not care that I hadn’t existed.

      - “…this is the only life we get.”
      That’s precisely why more of us place the woman, an actual person, over the embryo/fetus/et cetera, a potential human being that is NOT a person.

      “…killing an innocent person because someone made a poor decision…”
      They are also not people. A person is far more than a collection of cells.
      Calling rape a ‘poor decision’ is pretty fucked up.

      “There are people out there who cannot have children…”
      There are plenty of orphans out there that those people are not adopting. They are actual people, who actually suffer, who actually have childhoods and need futures, who actually deserve a shot.

    • pagansister

       So you would want your daughter to not terminate a pregnancy due to violently  forced intercourse.  You would want her  to give birth and  look into the face daily that might look just like the rapist, and be reminded HOW  it was conceived?   No, the future child had nothing to do with it, that’s true.  However, the morning after pill prevents the possibility of pregnancy and isn’t an “abortion” pill.   Taking that prevents the woman (or your daughter) from having to make a decision to terminate or carry.  Would you be raising the rape child as it’s grandparent?   You could also then be reminded daily of the reason the birth took place.     Fortunately I have never had to make such a decision, as I have never been raped.  I do know a now adult who is the product of rape, and she is a mess—as she asked who her father was and her mother told her she was the result of a rape.   She is 25, has a child of her own,born when she was 18, that she really wants nothing to do with,   (not a rape, but the father has him most of time) has been in trouble with the law, drugs, many men in her life (shot one of them on purpose), etc.   Finding out she was a rape child has made her not care what she does with her own life.    Termination or the morning after pill?   Either works to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.   

  • primenumbers

    And of course, the corollary to all this is that women shouldn’t try to avoid being raped because that might get in the way of God’s mysterious plans for them.

    • Isilzha

       Wait…does this now mean I can walk alone, after dark, while wearing a skirt! 

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/FXPIG6FKD37NZHPGNIASLJRLWM Alexander

    Redeeming powers? The rape victim is the one that needs any sort of redemption? Uh, wouldn’t that be the rapist themselves who needs redemption…?

    Also, I’d love to hear what he has to say about an Atheist being raped.

    • Baby_Raptor

      God let us get raped so he could use the situation to bring us to him.

      Yes, I’ve been told this.

      • Bdafrica

         Well I’ve been told Christians believe that God does use all bad things to bring people to Him.  I think that’s in the Bible.  So have you been told it wrongly, whether you like it or not?

        • matt

          The omnipotent creator of the universe purposely does bad things to convince us to come worship him?    Why would it care if we come to him/her anyway?  Are you saying it created us just for us to worship it or burn in hell for eternity?

          Does that REALLY sound like the characteristics of an all-knowing, all-powerful creator of reality?

          The bible is the LEAST convincing piece of evidence for this god guy/gal you speak of.  It condones misogyny, murder and slavery and a lot of it is borrowed myth from previous religions.

          • Bdafrica

            Your argument doesn’t flow.  Regardless of what it condones or not (according to you), how does i t not provide evidence for what was mentioned?

            • Isilzha

               The bible is a horrible work of fiction and matters less than the Harliquin romances I read as a teen.  In fact, the bible is an immoral, nasty, misogynistic piece of crap.  It does NOT matter at all what is or isn’t said in the bible.  Try to get that through your thick fucking skull!  The bible is CRAP and does NOT matter in the least!

            • matt

              Because of the reasons I mentioned above, random biblical rules and proclamations mean nothing.

              Call it evidence if you want, but it’s really, really bad evidence.

        • Coyotenose

           You aren’t disguising yourself very well.

          Oh, and it’s a sign of a remarkably incompetent deity when he has to take the side of rapists and murderers, hoping they’ll make their victims hurt enough that they’ll desperately grasp around for help and eventually cling to the idea of an invisible man who tells them that their suffering is the fault of his beautiful creations.

          …who were so stupid that a talking snake (another creation) could fool them into growing up, and did so for no apparent reason. Good planning, oh Lord!

        • Isilzha

          Who cares what the fuck is in the bible?  It’s a nasty, immoral book.  I threw the copies I had in the garbage where it belongs!

        • Baby_Raptor

          If you’re saying that you’ve heard that christianists believe what I said, then how have I been told wrong?

          Also, guess what? I have the freedom to like or dislike whatever religious tripe I want. I don’t have to believe it and respect it simply because someone else thinks god said it. 

          And frankly, I think any deity that would use life ruining events such as a rape to try and make people worship them is sick and demented. Not at all deserving of the worship they’re after. 

      • Coyotenose

         Jesus that makes me want to punch somebody, and I’m pacifistic.

  • jdm8

    In Christian culture, I’ve always heard redeeming in the context of sin. Which is why it seems to me that they are implying that being raped is a sin.

    • Bdafrica

       Or that rape is the result of sin?

      • Antinomian

        Who is the sinner that you speak of?

        I have the sneaking suspicion you’re speaking of the raped.

        That would confirm my other suspicion that after reading your posts in this thread that you’re sock-puppeting to hide evertoncalvinist.

        • Deven Kale

           This guys too intelligent to be EC’s sock puppet. I’m more inclined to think he’s actually J.K. King, although that guys too arrogant to hide his name. Sadly, I think this guys actually just another troll. It seems that, lately, we get rid of one and get two more. It’s like a damn Hydra of Christian garbage.

          • J. K. King

             Thanks Deven for considering me quite intelligent. But arrogant? Where’s your proof? Fifteen years of hard work (Shocked by Truth) earns me the right to speak authoritatively, does it not? I’m not like everyone else.

            I was confused by your previous posts. Now I realize you were discussing the book of Job. Unfortunately, both Christian believers and Atheists hang on to every word of it. Job is simply an interesting fable. My God was revealed in the person of Jesus Christ.  My book explains all this.

            And on Friendly Atheist blog, I have been using only one name: J. K. King. At this juncture in my life, I need other Christian believers as much as a fish needs a bicycle.

            • Deven Kale

               At the time that I wrote that, I had you confused with somebody who calls themself theist101. So I don’t have any proof that you’re arrogant, although it is a little annoying that you’re constantly promoting your website in nearly every comment you make. Why not just link it to your profile so all someone has to do is click your name? That’s what most people with websites do here.

              • J. K. King

                 Deven, thanks for your response.

                Please note that I only type my website address on my first post of every thread, never on any subsequent post on the same thread.

                Why not link it to my profile? Besides not knowing how to do that, how many people read material thereby? Zero no doubt.

                The rough draft on my website cost me 14 years of my life plus 560 dollars. So what most people do? This will sound arrogant, but most people can kiss my ass.” Most people” don’t pay my bills. If it was up to most people, I would die and rot.

                I have no family, no job, no prestige, make no money from anything,  no nothing. My life is writing and God ,nothing else.

                Your Hydra comment? I wish I was part of a hydra. However, a mythological hydra could be easily defeated with modern weapons. If there was a Hydra made of titanium steel and which shot laser beams, count me in.

              • J. K. King

                Deven,

                I only type my website address on my first post of every thread if you haven’t noticed.

                How many people read someone’s website from a profile link? Zero?

                Thankfully I’m not part of a Hydra, which could be easily defeated with modern weapons.  However, if there was a titanium steel Hydra which shot laser beams, count me in.

      • Isilzha

        Sin?  There’s no such thing as “sin”.  It’s a religious concept so keep it the fuck out of secular society.

  • RevWubby

    Mourdock has nothing to learn here other than how to spin to the media better.  He didn’t say anything he didn’t mean and that his base, the Christian Right, thinks was wrong. The people he cares about are the ones who absolutely agree with the idea that God intended a rape to make a baby. The only thing Mourdock got wrong was saying in public what he and his base normally only say in private.

    • http://stevebowen58.blogspot.co.uk/ Steve Bowen

      But it’s totally against Christian theology to suggest God intended rape. What about the free will of the rapist? These people don’t even seem to understand the consequences of their own religious beliefs.

  • Stev84

    And they have the nerve to claim that they are the moral ones

  • http://twitter.com/eshowoman Friday Foster-ABWW

    As a rape survivor, I would like all these apologists to be raped with dildo covered with rusty nails.  That is all.

    • Bdafrica

       So sad, so sorry.  But is that what you really want?

      • Isilzha

        Those of us who don’t believe in a sky fairy understand that our wants and desires can’t magically make stuff happen.  No one is “praying” for anyone to be fucked with a nail dildo.  It’s mostly an expression of frustration over (primarily) white, male privilege coming from people who’ve never had to deal with any of this crap personally. 

        • The Other Weirdo

           I’ll remember that the next time some Goyem dares to say something about the Holocaust.

          The point is that just because you don’t believe that your wishes can come true merely because you wish them, in contrast to religious people, doesn’t mean the wishes aren’t harmful to you.

          • Isilzha

             Maybe, maybe not…but that’s my business then, not yours.

            • The Other Weirdo

               Right. I’ll be sure to remember that.

    • The Other Weirdo

       I’m disturbed that there are 8 likes on your post.

      • Corey

        I just made it 17. I am amazed at the high regards people put themselves in, when discussing someone’s opinion they do not agress with. I believe all conservative Christians should be round up an elieminated. This doesnt mean anyone is better than me or should expect me to believe their opinion is more valid than mine.

        • The Other Weirdo

           I don’t hold myself in higher regard to people over their beliefs. As a Jew(but a secular one), I am well aware of what wishing to round people up based on their birth or beliefs and eliminating them leads to. Of course, one need not look that far back. Back in 1994, Hutus tried very hard to eliminate the Tutsis based on what they thought the Tutsis thought and believed. That’s a simplification, of course, but it’ll serve as an illustration. And, oh hell, a few years later, the same thing happened in Bosnia.

          So spare me your self-righteous declarations.

    • SphericalBunny

      I get that you’re justifiably hurt and angry, but unless you’re trying to claim rape is  acceptable in some cases (such as for educating or punishing a person), please try to refrain from saying this kind of thing. Rape should never be ok.

    • Tiffany Brown

       Really? I’m a rape survivor, too, and I think it’s disgusting that anyone would wish rape on anyone else.

      • Corey

        I am a survivor of molestation, which you could call rape, and it is different for each individual how they deal with it. To assume revenge is “disgusting” may be the norm in your mind, but dont offend those who deal with their pain in a different way. I may not believe my situation should have rape as a answer to justice, but if I were a child raped by a Cathoilic priest, I may have a different view, or if I were raped violently and the rapist got away, I would gladly take part in hunting this person down and not only raping them, but most likely do it in a way that kills that person.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Larry-Dillon/100003490445938 Larry Dillon

      I stand with you.Let the RIGHT be WRONG,Let the WEAK be STRONG.Let the GUILTY pay,let their own BLOOD wash THEIR SINS away.

    • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

      I liked this comment because I can identify with the sentiment. Doesn’t mean I really want it to happen.

  • sam

    Many critics, even secular critics, of Mr. Mourdock’s comments are making a more fundamental error.  They generally accept his belief that his christian god does not condone rape or “preordain rape”.  This is a biblically false statement.  Not only does his god permit and condone rape, it explicitly commands rape.

    2Sam 12:11: Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.Jer 8:4,10: This is what YHWH says:…Therefore I will give their wives to other men… Zech 14:1-2: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; & the city shall be taken, & the houses rifled, & the women ravished; & half of the city shall go forth into captivity.IS 13:12-16: I will make people scarcer than pure gold…Everyone who is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their … wives will be ravished.

    Apparantly, Mr. Mourdock’s god cannot lie (Heb 6:18).

    Mourdock’s god gives explicit instructions on exactly how one should go about properly raping a woman (DT 21:10-14).  Mourdock’s god also gives explicit instructions on exactly how a husband should go about forcing the abortion (not a pro-choice position) of the fetus of his cheating wife (Num 5:11-28).

    These mentally diseased Crusaders ought not be allowed to publicly lie about their own ignorant superstitions.

  • Brianna

    I’ve lived among the suffering and hungry for a long time, and telling them  “God will use your suffering for good” does not make you heartless.  Sometimes you have to suffer with them, and are also hungry.  Sometimes it could be the other way around.

     What happens to your argument if the person being ‘compassionate’ was also a rape victim who had her child?

    I think your treatment of Mark Galli’s quote was a bit unfair, especially the ‘for else’ comment.  Why didn’t you write, “or else we hate you and God will have you burn forever”.  Makes no sense.

    If people (ANYONE, Christian or non) believe that by telling someone a message they can save them from suffering, who are we do not respect their right? Bigger questions here as well.  If God exists, why would he/she allow suffering?   I guess the list goes on. I digress.

    Thanks….

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=705066677 Desiree Bell-Fowlks

      They have the right to say their message and we have the right to tell them to fuck off.

      • Bdafrica

         yeah.  I think more politely if you want to be more effective, but yeah.

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=705066677 Desiree Bell-Fowlks

          No I do not want to be polite when anyone tries to give me or any woman unsolicited advice or platitudes.  Unless you are her doctor or an invited person, you do not stick yourself into her private matters.  I do not care how much you are trying to “save me suffering.”  It’s none of your damn business and you deserve to be told to fuck off and jump from highest cliff. 

          • Bdafrica

             ok.  But if I agree with your viewpoints 100%, and we want others to agree with us, will telling them to “fuck off” work?  The real arguments (not on the internet) I’ve engaged in that end with fuck off usually are ineffective.  If you believe women should not receive unsolicited advice, and you believe your belief is good for humanity, then convert as many as you can!  Thanks Desiree

            • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=705066677 Desiree Bell-Fowlks

              The fact that people think they can have a discussion about what a woman can or not do with her reproduction is insulting.  I have no tolerance or patience with anyone trying to have an agrument with me about my damn medical choices.  I can care less about people coming over to my side.  My side is leave me the fuck alone to make my own decsions about my vagina.  End of story.  No debate, expect to tell you to fuck yourself.

            • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

              NO. I’m not interested in having those others agree with me. I’m interested in utterly marginalizing theocrats who would impose their ridiculous beliefs on others, regardless of the social and individual harm inflicted.

            • Isilzha

               Why do you think you should get a voice in some stranger’s medical decisions?

            • Baby_Raptor

              Why should a bunch of people who aren’t the woman, her doctor, or the sperm donor if he’s around, get any say in what a woman does with her body? 

              Why do you feel entitled to tell me what I have to do?

              And why is it that this only comes up with a woman’s pregnancy? Why does it not come up in situations where men are affected, like say donating blood or organs?

        • Baby_Raptor

          Yeah, *we’re* the ones that should be polite. Look in the mirror. Christians don’t know what polite is. 

    • Baal

      Bdafrica saunters forth and recites: ” and telling them  “God will use your suffering for good” does not make you heartless.”

      Actually, yes it does.  Suffering is a bad thing.  The moral course is to reduce suffering.  Your statement does not reduce suffering, it cannot.  You’re explicitly saying the suffering is a good thing since god can transform it.  It is not. 

      Further, “Fuck Off” has a specific meaning.  It says that your statements are so awful that they don’t deserve further attention or that you don’t need more explanation to reconsider your statement.  You should know that using certain phrases at the wrong time will make folks very angry or hurt.  As such, don’t say such things out of respect for the other person as a human being. 

      So Bdafrica, on the basis of you being a human who doesn’t want to do harm, I’d ask that you never ever say to anyone that suffering is good or has a silver lining.  You can instead condemn the source of the suffering or offer to be available to help the person with the problem.  Lastly, unless you’re stopping a suicide or close equivalent, once you have been told to back off, do so.

    • Sue Blue

      Let me tell you from bitter experience that the last thing a suffering person wants to hear is effortless platitudes like “God is with you” or “God has a plan for you”.  When my son was killed, I had my fill of people telling me things like this.  My reply was “Really?  I’d much rather God had been protecting my son from murderers than hanging around me now.”   My advice (and the advice of grief and trauma experts):  Don’t tell suffering people you know how they feel.  Don’t tell them their suffering is part of some divine plan.  Don’t say the equivalent of “when life hands you lemons, make lemonade” – they DON’T want to hear it.  Starving people don’t want prayers and platitudes – they want food.  Homeless people don’t want sermons – they want a warm roof over their heads.  Women who’ve been raped don’t want your patronizing bullshit – they want compassion, privacy, help, and safety…and to be treated like an intelligent, autonomous human being whose life is worth living for her own sake, not some blastocyst’s.

      It’s my experience that platitudes and prayers are the ploys of those who want to pat themselves on the back for doing something for those in need, while not doing anything that requires actual effort or real, heartfelt compassion.

  • http://atheistlutheran.blogspot.com/ MargueriteF

    There’s another article on CNN’s Belief Blog on the topic, with various religious commentators trying to address rape, abortion, and the problem of evil in a kinder and more compassionate (if not entirely logical) way:

    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/25/when-gods-will-rape-and-pregnancy-collide/?hpt=hp_c1

    A couple of the remarks quoted:

    “Someone getting pregnant through rape simply means biology continues to function. That doesn’t mean God wills it. If we look at the Scriptures, we see a God who weeps with those going through pain, who is compassionate for those who suffer and condemns those who do injustice.”

    “If you believe she has no right to terminate that pregnancy, you’re free to believe that. But for you to write your preferences into law and compel another person to mess her life up because of what you believe, I think you’re going too far.”

    • kaydenpat

      What an excellent comment.  That’s exactly it.  You can believe all you want that abortion is wrong. You have no right to enforce your beliefs on others through legislation. 

  • Camorris

    “There are people out there who cannot have children for one, but if it were my grandchild I would do everything in my power to make sure my daughter could continue her eduction or whatever she needed to do and keep her child.”
    Are you willing to adopt the baby as your own and provide all the care and sustenance so that your daughter can be free to pursue her life  unencumbered with an unwanted child?
    I think you are regarding your daughter as your possession.

    “I am pro-life but I would support my daughters decision. Of course that would be assuming she had the option to make the decision legally.”

    And this is the crux of the matter – making abortion illegal so that she doesn’t have the option.

    (Church + State) = Tyranny

    • njew84

      I believe abortion should be illegal but I also believe there should be(on extremely rare occasions) a few exceptions. I’m not going to go through every senerio but I don’t believe a perfectly healthy female impregnated with a perfectly healthy fetus shouldn’t be able to have an abortion simply because it is an inconvenience for them. Extreme health issues possibly but inconvenience not so much. I think it should be carefully dissected and evaluated for any and every circumstance. Rape, after careful evaluation still could be reason enough to abort a fetus. I’m kind of in the middle on the issue to be honest. I really don’t think there is a happy medium to every situation and no matter what there is always going to be complaining from some party.

      • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

        *Inconvenience*??!! You call becoming impoverished because as a very young single mother you can’t afford an education or time to develop a career is *inconvenient*?

        I must say that it must be *convenient* for you to be able to make such godly judgments on others from on high. You’re a nasty piece of work.

        • anonymous

          I agree with njew84. Many young women get abortions because they’re in high school, or because they can’t afford a child and it is inconvenient for them to be pregnant. They usually don’t even consider adoption.

      • Coyotenose

         “I really don’t think there is a happy medium to every situation…”

        Thank you, that is exactly why it can’t be legislated, and must remain the decision of the mother, who is the only one qualified to judge her situation and needs. No judge or other authority can competently examine cases and competently decide that somehow, THIS time, it’s alright to completely commandeer the body of a woman and force her to undertake a long-term, life-changing, health-altering medical procedure against her will because she didn’t provide enough evidence that she is a person.

        • njew84

          “Thank you, that is exactly why it can’t be legislated, and must remain the decision of the mother, who is the only one qualified to judge her situation and needs.”

          Okay I understand that point when the mother is mature enough and not temporarily mentally unhealthy or just plain unstable. Take this into consideration please..

          A 13 year old girl is raped. Her parents are willing to support whatever decision she makes. I can’t imagine the mental anguish she must be goin through to make this decision but the pressure of life pushes abortion as the only option. She decides to abort the fetus. 5, 10, 20 years down the road she kills herself because she can’t live with the decision she made to abort her fetus that could have very well grown up to be a wonderful healthy person if she had just made the decision to keep it.

          Yes this is a decision she would be able to make but who is to say she was in the proper state to make an educated decision? You see what I’m saying?

          It’s topics like this that makes me glad that I DON’T make the laws!

          • Deven Kale

            “5, 10, 20 years down the road she kills herself because she can’t live with the decision she made to abort her fetus.”

            While that’s a real heart-rending hypothetical, do you have any proof that stuff like this ever happens? I don’t think I’ve ever heard of someone committing suicide from an abortion. Depression for a time, yes. Regretting having the abortion, yes. But suicide? I’ve never heard of any woman actually going that far.

            • njew84

              It is hypothetical because I don’t have proof of it but just using this as an example. Maybe she doesn’t commit suicide but has extreme mental anguish from the rape and the guilt she has from the abortion. Or maybe the combination of the two drives her to such a deep depression that she does commit suicide. I’m just trying to make a point.

              • Envy Burger

                A hypothetical of that sort – of which nobody has ever heard the like in real life – should NEVER, under any circumstances, be enough to make you think that a woman shouldn’t have the right to make up her own mind.  

                Abortion is either legal or it isn’t.  Women can either make up their minds or they can’t.  Using extreme, non-existent fairy tales to justify taking away a woman’s right to choose is ignorant.   

                Even if there ever were a woman that committed suicide because she regretted the abortion, that is absolutely no excuse to take the right away from the 99.9999999999% of women that would never do that.  That is insane.

                People commit suicide for various reasons all of the time – losing jobs, bad relationships, losing loved ones, breakups, feeling like outcasts, etc.  Real-life suicides have happened over these things.  If you’re thinking banning abortion is a plausible option because of a non-existent suicide of a non-existent person, then I suppose jobs, relationships, and having loved ones should be illegal, too.  Oh, and don’t forget being “different” from those around you.  That should definitely be illegal.

              • Isilzha

                And so what if it did happen?  I could hypothetically decide to kill myself over being raped back in HS.  So, what does that actually mean??  I’m just trying to make a point. :/  (a stupid point, but it’s a point somehow)

                Also, what about the woman who has the baby and kills herself 20 years later. That’s just as possible too!

                Or…what about the woman who has the baby and gives it up for adoption, but can’t forgive herself. What if SHE kills herself because of it later? After all, that’s just as likely as YOUR hypothetical (stupid) scenario.

                • njew84

                  Okay you’re right I’m just an idiot.
                  All I’m doing is trying to be considerate of the possibility that the fetus has a destiny, whether you believe in God or not, maybe destiny does exist. By aborting its life you are taking away any kind of chance it had to grow and live, whether it has feelings or not shouldn’t matter. I agree there are rare circumstances where abortion could be an option but I think it should be controlled. If a woman is out having sex with random men and happens to become pregnant but she didn’t want a kid so she has an abortion…should she have the right to do that? I don’t think so.

                • Isilzha

                  Nothing has a “destiny”. 

                  However, you keep wanting to force a woman in to becoming an incubator and it’s now obvious why.  You want to punish women for “having sex with random men.”  You have no respect for women as people, as entities in their own right.  Hell, you don’t even think they have “destinies” beyond being baby factories!

                • The Other Weirdo

                   There is no destiny but what we make.

                • njew84

                  How the hell can you possibly know that?

                • Deven Kale

                   There’s no evidence for it, so assuming there is none is just the more logical assumption.

                • The Other Weirdo

                  @njew84:disqus  More importantly, how can you know that there is?

                • Deven Kale

                  “All I’m doing is trying to be considerate of the possibility that the fetus has a destiny[.]”

                  What if it’s their destiny to be aborted? Who are you to get in the way of that? The destiny argument is no better than the “God’s plan” argument. In fact, I think it’s the exact same argument.

                  Since it’s impossible for you to know the destiny of another, it’s equally impossible for you to judge another for what you would consider interfering with that destiny. For all you know, that person could be wholly evil, worse than even Hitler (Oh god, I just Godwin’d) if allowed to live, and so whoever/whatever makes destinies had them destined for abortion.

                  “Sometimes people need to take responsibility for their actions”

                  Have you ever thought that this woman might be in a situation where getting the abortion actually is the most responsible act at the time? Abusive husbands, drug addiction, being 13 years old (which makes even carrying the child extremely dangerous); this list is a very easy one to come up with. And yes, I do believe that being a drug addict is a good reason to get an abortion, if the person is honest enough to recognize they won’t be able to quit yet. For some of us, myself included, abortion is just the lesser of evils.

                • njew84

                  If you had read many of my other comments I have admitted that under “rare” circumstances after careful evaluation abortion might be acceptable but I believe it should be regulated.

                  “Sometimes people need to take responsibility for their actions”

                  This comment was made with the acknowledgment that both parties were consensual.

                • Deven Kale

                   Okay, now you’re starting to piss me off. I was just having a discussion before but I now see you’re not really interested in that. You ignore the points made by others and just assert more garbage with each comment. Still, I’ll respond to what you’ve just said.

                  “This comment was made with the acknowledgment that both parties were consensual.”

                  Being a drug addict does not preclude one from giving consent, unless they were on drugs at the time (which isn’t always the case). There are many cases where consent can still be achieved where abortion is still the more responsible action.The real problem is that you’re unwilling to see that such a thing is even possible.

                  “If you had read many of my other comments…”

                  I’ve read all of your other comments. They’re especially confusing in that you say you want abortion criminalized except for in certain circumstances, but then you turn around and say that if you’re daughter of 14 (I think 14) got pregnant you would only advise her and give her the ultimate choice. This shows that you actually understand that forcing anyone to give birth is immoral, but that you still insist upon legislating for exactly that because it’s the stance you’ve been told you should hold. In the end, all you’ve really shown here is your own hypocrisy and lack of critical thinking skills.

                • Envy Burger

                  Once again – how do you regulate this sort of thing?  Truly think this through.  Who is going to be able to judge whether a certain woman “deserves” an abortion or not?  In short order?  And who has the right to judge whether a woman can or can’t take care of a child or tolerate a pregnancy other than the woman?  Do you think these judges aren’t going to interject their own biases into each situation, therefore leaving every woman at the mercy of this person’s desires?  

                  Either women can choose or they can’t.  To say that you would rather (mostly likely) some male judge sit and scrutinize a woman and tell her what to do rather than she decide what she wants and can handle in life is wrong.  There is no way to fairly and consistently regulate this sort of thing.  To try would be humiliating and extremely detrimental.

                  And you never know how you would feel with every pregnancy.  Remember that many women who feel the way you do have had abortions themselves, because when in the situation, they realize that abortions are the right thing for them.  

                • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

                  You’re a piece of shit, njew. You prevaricated over dozens of posts, until now when you finally admit to what it is you actually want. You don’t want women to have sex with whomever they please, only who YOU approve of. It pisses you off and you want absolute control over their bodies and their wombs. You’re the worst kind of theist, the kind that would relegate women to the status of chattel, because you just can’t handle the idea of women freely fucking whichever men they’re attracted to.

                  You mendacious douchebag, and I can NOT wait for the day when those of us who want women to be treated as human beings can watch you and your ilk become utterly crushed and marginalized. I’ll be buying champagne.

                • njew84

                  You don’t know anything about me. Yes I do think woman should only “fuck” one person, a person that they love. We all make mistakes though and I realize this, but when we do make mistakes we should be responsible and do what’s right.

                • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

                  Tough shit. Having sex with more than one person in your life is not a “mistake”, except to morally twisted assholes who think they have a right to tell women how to live their lives and govern their bodies.

                  You may leave.

                • Envy Burger

                  This has nothing to do with abortion, anyway.  Most abortions are had by women who are married are with only one person.  Just because a couple is married does not mean they are physically, emotionally and financially able to support a child.  And by saying that woman can only have an abortion if she didn’t choose to have sex is telling women that anytime we have sex, we have to be punished by a precious, unwanted child.

                  Unwanted pregnancies don’t only happen to “sluts” who fuck a million men a day.  

                  Regardless, there is no way to regulate when a woman “deserves” to have an abortion and when not.  Proving a rape could take years.  Women who are raped are already trivialized, traumatized and demoralized.  Do you think courts are going to rule on a rape in a matter of hours so that a legal, early term abortion can be had?  Seriously?  

                  And you claiming that certain circumstancesjustify abortion while others don’t completely blows a hole in your rationale that a fetus has a right to live no matter what.  You really should sit and think about why you think certain situations are ok and others are not.  Think critically about it.  
                  This belief you have completely erases the woman and her body and mind – except to judge and blame her for daring to have had sex.  

                • Earl G.

                  “f a woman is out having sex with random men”
                  Here he tips his hand.  It is PRECISELY about punishing women for sexuality.  

          • Isilzha

            Most people don’t regret their abortions.

            • njew84

              How about this senerio. A young woman has sex with a young man and become pregnant. The man says he wants her to have the baby but the woman doesn’t. The man says he will take on full custody of the child if she decides to have it. Should she have the option to have an abortion regardless of what the father says just because he isn’t the one giving birth to it? Nobody cares how the father feels though huh.

              • Isilzha

                The woman is the ONLY one who has a say about an abortion because it’s HER fucking body.  If a man could force her to carry a pregnancy to term then a man could force a woman to have an abortion against her will.  How about THAT little scenario?  From what I hear from MRAs complaining about being forced to pay for child support for children they didn’t want then I imagine that there will be MANY women forced to have abortions. 

                A woman has the right to her body…PERIOD. FULL FUCKING STOP. END OF STORY.  It’s the same reason I can have people abduct you from your home and forcibly remove a kidney and other select body parts to give to another person.

                • njew84

                  So I guess because it is our body we should just legalize anything that might harm us as long as we “feel” like its not affecting anyone else. After all it’s our bodies, maybe we should legalize methamphetamines, as long as we have abortions we won’t have to worry about it affecting our children’s lives and since men are all worthless who cares about if it affects them. This is your logic no?

                • Isilzha

                  You’re not even addressing my points.

                  You’ve proven yourself and idiot again and again.  I’m done with you. 

                • njew84

                  Oh thank GOD! I thought you were going to call me an idiot again…

                • Deven Kale

                   Meth is illegal because those who are on it become dangerous to fully developed, conscious human beings who have rights (although there are good arguments for legalizing it in spite of that, but that’s a different conversation).  A fetus is neither developed, nor conscious, and can hardly be called a human being yet. That’s only a small part of the difference.

                  Who says men are worthless? The argument is that men aren’t the one’s risking their lives by carrying the child within their bodies, and so they don’t get the final say. The woman has the right to say what her body parts are used for, just as you do. If it were possible for you to carry a child, would you be happy to be forced into it against your will? I know I wouldn’t.

                  As for your argument that men are forced to pay child support by the law, that’s only if they want to. I’m amazed at how many men there are that don’t realize all they have to do is forfeit their parental rights to the child and they would no longer have to pay child support. This also means that they have no right to see them or anything, but I don’t think most of them who complain about Child Support actually care about that. It’s like nobody is smart enough to ask the question.

                • njew84

                  This is going to be my last comment on here I believe I’ve pissed off enough people unintentionally.

                  ” I’m amazed at how many men there are that don’t realize all they have to do is forfeit their parental rights to the child and they would no longer have to pay child support.”

                  I actually did know this but for some reason it slipped my mind so I apologize for making a false statement. However while a woman making the decision to abort a fetus is widely accepted by MANY, a mans decision to give up rights to his child is not by ANYONE, and that man is NOT a man! A man takes responsibility for his actions. On the other point I made on the woman having the choice to have an abortion despite what the “father” of the fetus says, you cannot argue this is unfair to a man as he CANNOT possibly carry it even if he truly wanted to. I believe both parents should have equal say in the matter. That is all. Take it or leave it that is how I feel. Sorry if I offended anyone.

                • Earl G.

                  I took you seriously up to this point.  Now you’ve revealed that you’re just being a troll.

                • The Other Weirdo

                   I don’t think I’ve heard anybody in the MRA groups say that women should be forced to have abortions. Where’s that coming from?

                • Isilzha

                  I’ve seen many comments like it on the internet.  I’ve seen both the “force the woman to carry to term” and the “how dare she have a kid I don’t want” sides.  There’s also the “well, she can have the kid but I’m not supporting it” type too.

                • njew84

                  How about “it is my child inside you that I want to love and care for” type? Oh that type of guy is probably just another fairy tale we Christians make up, you know kinda like God.

                • Deven Kale

                   I’m a guy myself, and even I recognize that that type of guy seems fictional somewhat fictional. At least the “love and care for” by myself type.

                • Envy Burger

                  It doesn’t matter if this type of man does actually exist.  It’s not his body on the line.  If a woman decides that she wants to give birth and hand the child over to the father, then that is her right.  But it’s her right to decide not to put her own body through that.

                • The Other Weirdo

                   Okay, but the question was about women being forced to have abortions.

                • Deven Kale

                   With just a quick web-search of “forced to abort,” I found this: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/18/forced-to-abort/

                • The Other Weirdo

                   Sad, and shouldn’t be happening, but not what I asked.

                • njew84

                  ” It’s the same reason I can’t have people abduct you from your home and forcibly remove a kidney and other select body parts to give to another person.”

                  If that kidney or body part somehow was also part of that other person than maybe that would be a good analogy.

                • Earl G.

                  It would be part of another person.  So yeah, it’s a perfect analogy.

                • njew84

                  “From what I hear from MRAs complaining about being forced to pay for child support for children they didn’t want then I imagine that there will be MANY women forced to have abortions”

                  Umm did I say anything about men not taking responsibility? If a woman has options to keep or abort a fetus than shouldn’t the man have the same option to take care of or abandon the child if he didn’t want it? Men are forced to pay child support by the law, why are woman not forced to have the child by the law? If we want to continue to allow women to have the decision whether or not she wants to take responsibility than can we really force men to? (This of course is considering that both parties are consensual.)

                • anonymous

                  That’s not entirely true. Yes, the baby will be growing inside her body, but she’s not aborting her own body. She’s aborting the tiny body of another person.

              • Envy Burger

                What is it with you and hypotheticals?  As opposed to real-life situations?  

                It’s a woman’s body.  The pregnancy could kill her, harm her, destroy her body, leave her with extreme post-partum depression, diabetes, thyroid dysfunction, severe hormonal imbalances… all for the rest of her life.  The entire reason that abortion is an option is because it’s a woman’s body that she has the right to think about.  The man has no such stake in the pregnancy.

      • Deven Kale

         You still didn’t answer the question: Would you be willing to adopt and care for the child while your daughter gets her life to a point where she could properly care for it herself?

      • Isilzha

        Inconvenience–there’s that word again.  I don’t think it means what YOU think it means.  Children are MORE than just an inconvenience.  An inconvenience is a line at the bank or the supermarket being out of bread.  I’m always confused at people when they don’t see children as deserving more than being defined as that.  Children are life changing and demanding on a person’s time, energy and finances.   However, people like you also forget that pregnancy is dangerous.  It can even be deadly.  Why isn’t the woman’s life worth anything? 

        Life is fragile and conception doesn’t insure or guarantee a healthy baby.  However, the woman already EXISTS!  She is a person and has rights.  She is NOT just a uterus and an incubator for any implanted zygote.  Her needs and, yes, even her wants, dreams and desires, come BEFORE the clump the cells that happens to be growing in her uterus.

        • http://twitter.com/silo_mowbray Silo Mowbray

          “Why isn’t the woman’s life worth anything?”

          Theists will never admit it, but the answer is something along the lines of “Because women who have sex with anyone else other than me are sluts and they should be punished for their slutty ways. And they should go back to being chattel.”

          This has never, ever been about “babies.” It’s about men demanding total control of women’s wombs and sexy parts.

          • Isilzha

             Yep, having sex of any sort makes a woman worthless.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=705066677 Desiree Bell-Fowlks

        Who the hell are you to dictate what I do with my own damn body?! 

      • Patterrssonn

        Inconvenience? Exactly how many pregnancies have you had.

      • Baby_Raptor

        Why should your thoughts on a woman’s abortion matter? Why do you get to decide what other people can and cannot do with their own bodies? What makes you think you’re so important?

        And don’t give me that “it’s a life” BS. You’re still dictating what women have to do with their own bodies. In no other situation does anyone advocate for forced bodily support of others. So why here?

      • MariaO

        I assume you also want to make it the law that every healthy person have to donate one kidny to save to life of a person who needs a new kidney?

        No, I guess you don’t, because that would involve the control of MENs bodies too, and that is of course unacceptable. Right?

        And of course a born person’s life is so much less valuable than a fetus’ life, so saving a fetus is much more important than saving an adult. Right?

      • kaileyverse

        Some women who are perfectly healthy die ( from medical conditions obtained during pregnancy. More women than who die during or as a result of an abortion, thanks to Roe v Wade.

        Currently the death rate from abortion in the United States
        is 0.6 per 100,000 procedures, eleven times safer than carrying a
        pregnancy to term. Before Roe, it was 3.4/100,000 procedures. If “pro-lifers” really cared about saving lives, they would do everything they can to keep abortion legal.

        With the legalization of abortion, physicians were allowed to develop best practices that would become medically regulated standard practice to minimize complications, reduce post-abortion hospitalization, and to make abortion safer for women.

        • Earl G.

          Plus the myriad health complications that crop  up during pregnancy and childbirth, some of which the woman will have to suffer from for the rest of her life.
          “Inconvenience” is the most crass, callous, misogynist way possible of describing this.

  • C Peterson

    I don’t really have a problem with a Christian telling a Christian victim of rape that a baby born as a result could be seen as a blessing… if the person making this statement actually knows the victim and her views. After all, this is a pretty mainstream Christian idea.

    But to suggest that anybody say something like this to a stranger is insensitive in the extreme. I can’t help but wonder how many Christian extremists, who go so far as to suggest that not making a claim like this is “disrespectful”, are the same ones who have sponsored or voted for laws seeking to limit the access of rape victims to abortion, or laws which don’t require counselors to discuss options such as abortion. If you’re going to talk about the “redeeming power of God” you damn well better talk about the redeeming power of modern medicine, as well! I sense some serious hypocrisy here…

  • smrnda

    Christians, a rape happens and the first instinct is to tell rape victims about God’s redeeming power and then next (I’m assuming) their need to forgive the rapist, After all, the Bible’s plan for rape is that unless the woman is already property, she becomes the property of the rapist. Some wonderful god all full of meaningful compassion (snark.)

    As usual, doesn’t give a damn about the woman at all. 

    Christians have no answers, just meaningless platitudes that only brainwashed sheep would find meaningful at all.

  • http://www.everydayintheparkwithgeorge.com/ Matt Eggler

    It is disrespectful to religious believers not to point out that their belief system has no basis in reality.

    You like that, Christianity Today?

  • kalimsaki

    Hi

    Said Nursi proved the existence of God in his books (Risalei Nur collection) (23 th flash)

    http://www.nur.gen.tr/en.html#leftmenu=Risale&maincontent=Risale&islem=read&KitapId=494&BolumId=8750&KitapAd=The+Flashes+(Revised+2009+edition)&Page=233

     

     

    I want to share these sentences

     

     

    Their prophets said: “Is there any doubt about God,
    Creator of the heavens and the earth?”

     

    O man! You should be aware that there are certain
    phrases which are commonly used and imply unbelief. The believers also use
    them, but without realizing their implications. We shall explain three of the
    most important of them.

    The First: “Causes create
    this.”

    The Second: “It forms
    itself; it comes into existence and later ceases to exist.”

    The Third: “It is natural;
    Nature necessitates and creates it.”

    Indeed, since beings exist and this cannot be denied,
    and since each being comes into existence in a wise and artistic fashion, and
    since each is not outside time but is being continuously renewed, then, O
    falsifier of the truth, you are bound to say either that the causes in the
    world create beings, for example, this animal; that is to say, it comes into
    existence through the coming together of causes, or that it forms itself, or
    that its coming into existence is a requirement and necessary effect of Nature,
    or that it is created through the power of One All-Powerful and All-Glorious.
    Since reason can find no way apart from these four, if the first three are
    definitely proved to be impossible, invalid and absurd, the way of Divine
    Unity, which is the fourth way, will necessarily and self-evidently and without
    doubt or suspicion, be proved true.

  • http://somaticstrength.wordpress.com/ Somaticstrength

    So if pregnancy is “God’s redemption” as a sexual abuse victim who DIDN’T get pregnant, does that mean I got no “redemption” from the horrible things that happened to me? God allowed these things to happen and then went “well, whatever, sucks for you”?

    I’ve read a hell of a lot of Christian fiction (far more than any person should for their mental health) and for the sheer numbers of Christians who believe that it’s so rare to get pregnant from rape, stories themselves constantly use that very scenario. And I really think it’s to assuage the little Christians’ minds that their god is ultimately wonderful no matter what bad things happen. “God is good” is the default and everything else must be twisted to fit into that.

    Even when I was a Christian, if I had gotten pregnant from what happened to me, I would have had an abortion in an instant. It would’ve either been that, or I would have killed myself, because I was about eleven or twelve, and in my entire life my body had never belonged to me, never been mine to make the decisions about what happened to it.

    But then I’m not really surprised that he believes this way, because messages about how my body didn’t belong to me and was for the use of others and god came just as much from church as it did from my raping family.

    If Christianity were true, heaven’s got a lot of fucking rapists in it.

    • smrnda

       The Christian fiction seems like nothing but propaganda about how women should just smile, be positive, and have no wants, desires, or feelings of their own.

    • Earl G.

      “If Christianity were true, heaven’s got a lot of fucking rapists in it.”
      This should be on a poster.  Though I might insert the word “unapologetic,” lest they think I’m talking about forgiven repentants or whatnot.

  • smrnda

    Had to also make a point about the incredible arrogance of Christians who act as if there’s absolutely no chance that someone in a crisis hasn’t heard their spiel before. Unless someone is asking you for your religious beliefs, don’t assume they’re interested in hearing.

    Nothing has reduced my respect for Christians than their opportunistic attempts to catch someone in a crisis and tell them the ‘good news’ which is a substitute for meaningful compassion.

    • J. K. King

       smrnda,

      Yes, Christian believers are incredibly arrogant and opportunistic. My respect for Christian believers has also been radically reduced.

      However, only Christ’s followers should properly be called Christians, not those in pretense only. Christ taught that His true followers would be known by their love.  The massive amount of fool’s gold doesn’t disprove the existence of Gold.

      Yes, rhetoric is substituted for meaningful compassion. However, atheists who lack compassion don’t even bother putting in a substitute, they offer nothing.

  • Gwen

    THEN they tell the poor woman that the state will not support the child unless the rape has been reported and deemed to be a ‘real’ rape. It rather turns into a very thorough slapdown of women.

  • cipher

    It’s Disrespectful Not to Tell Rape Victims About the ‘Redeeming Power of God’
    Is it disrespectful of me to call them flaming morons?

    • Baby_Raptor

      Of course. Anything but smiling, cheerful agreement with the christianists is persecution, remember?

  • Isilzha

    I’m so confused…I thought if a woman got pregnant then it COULDN’T be rape since her body can “shut down that sort of thing” and there would be some sort of magical secretions to prohibit pregnancy and stuff.

    • Envy Burger

      Yeah, exactly that.

      These people aren’t willing, for one god-damned second, to look at how everything they believe and say contradicts other things they believe and say.

  • Shuteme

    Because god would never have allowed that man to bloody your face, and then force his big filthy throbbing engorged penis in and out of your torn up vagina repeatedly for what must seem like hours for no reason. Remember how he moves in mysterious ways? This is just proof of that!

  • http://www.agnostic-library.com/ma/ PsiCop

    Re: “This is why religious extremism and the politicians who openly promote it … don’t go over well with the nation at large.”

    I for one am nowhere near stupid enough to buy the notion that these sorts of statements “don’t go over well with the nation.” Of course they do! The Religious Right has been largely successful. They wouldn’t be, if the nation didn’t like what they were hearing from them. This is so obvious, I can’t believe I have to post it here. But clearly, I do.

    Let’s face facts: It’s bad enough that there are people like Mourdock et al spewing this bilious garbage. But what’s far worse, is the reason they do it: Because there are millions of Americans who like this spew and want to hear it.  That’s millions, folks. Not just one or two, or a couple dozen, or even a couple thousand. We’re talking MILLIONS of Americans who believe all of this crap.

    We need desperately to stop clinging to the false notion that people like this are “the Lunatic Fringe” who represent only a tiny number of Americans. The truth is, they’re not “fringe” and they represent a much larger proportion of the country than any rational person should want.

  • http://twitter.com/Three_Star_Dave Dave Hill

    Saying that love can emerge from a tragic event is very different from saying the event is not tragic because love can emerge from it (and if it doesn’t, well, its YOUR FAULT).  Unfortunately, too many on the Religious Right turn the former to the latter. 

  • Anon

    Well then, I’m sure they won’t feel at all disrespected when the rape victim punches them in the face.

    With knuckledusters.

  • kaydenpat

    The redeeming power of God should lead a woman to decide for herself what she wants to do with her own body after being raped.  I wish these Christians like Mr. Galli would get that through their thick heads.  It’s not up to them to tell the woman what to do.  It’s her decision. 

  • Corey

    The problem those oh so sincere conservative Christiasn seem to always miss or chose to ignore is that the same people that believe they need to “tell them about the wondrous redeeming power of God” are the same people that generally believe, if you are a woman, and raped, its your own fault, something you “asked for”, which has been used throughout history in non-religious and religious areas like guilt by association; “you were seen talking to that communist”, or “you asked that witch for help and she killed the crops”. So, basically, you would always be punished, as both a punishment by man’s laws and by God’s laws where your punishment is your salvation, even if it kills you. 

  • Selpingos

    to those who have been raped, I wanna it is never ok and the memory probably lasts longer than any other injustice done to you. I marvel though at the insincerity and irresponsibility of this sensational article. First of all no Christian tells a rape victim have the baby or go to jail. You are a teacher. You should have more common sense than to arouse peoples feelings on this. It is clear your goal is not justice for the afflicted but mileage for your articles by picking and choosing articles and commenting irresponsibly knowing that controversy sells. You neither care for the victim or the truth but your agenda. Shame on you Man! And you are an educator? The only thing atheism promotes is license, abuse, mockery and self. I really thought that you had something valid to say.

  • Selpingos

    that said the purpose of explaining to them about God’s love is for their healing not to let trivialize their experience.


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