Now, I’ve Done It; I Pissed Off the Catholic League

I’ve finally done it. I finally got Bill Donohue mad enough that he’s mentioned me in a Catholic League press release.

Bill Donohue’s smile is perfectly natural.

The background is this: Chicago’s Cardinal Francis George recently said that gay marriage should not become legal in Illinois because it’s not “natural”:

Marriage comes to us from nature,” Chicago’s Cardinal Francis George said in a recent interview. “That’s based on the complementarity of the two sexes in such a way that the love of a man and a woman joined in a marital union is open to life, and that’s how families are created and society goes along.… It’s not in our doctrine. It’s not a matter of faith. It’s a matter of reason and understanding the way nature operates.”

“You want to be sure that everybody has a chance at happiness. That’s a very persuasive argument,” George said. “But we all want that, and nobody should be disdained or persecuted because of their sexual orientation… But when we get behind the church and behind the state, you’ve got a natural reality that two men or two women… cannot consummate a marriage. It’s a physical impossibility.

So I responded to the Cardinal’s idiotic statement:

You know what’s unnatural? A wafer magically turning into a 2,000-year-old dead man’s body. But Cardinal George has no problem accepting that one.

I thought I was being pretty generous. If I wanted to be mean, I would have said Communion was nothing more than cannibalizing a long-dead Palestinian and realizing he was pretty bland.

But I didn’t need to do that. My comment, along with those from other liberal commentators, got Donohue all hot and bothered:

Bernard Schlager, a professor of gay studies at Pacific School of Religion, says George is wrong because “sexual behavior is an expression of human love.” Not to a woman who has been raped it isn’t. Rainbow Sash, an anti-Catholic group, says the decision whether to have children, or to adopt, or not to have any, is made by “the respective married couple whatever sexual orientation they may be.” Wrong: Lesbians do not decide not to have children—their anatomy makes that call for them. Zack Ford, writing for a liberal website, accuses George of using “incendiary rhetoric” by saying it is “physically impossible” for gays to “consummate a marriage.” Incendiary? Or just plain pedestrian? Hemant Mehta, a Patheos blogger, can’t contain his rage, which is why he trashes the Eucharist as being unnatural. All in the name of tolerance.


My favorite part about the press release has to be how I found out about it, since they didn’t link to my original post (why let people read me in context and judge my “rage” for themselves, right?)…

The Catholic League actually sent me an email alerting me to the fact that I had been trashed by them:

Aww… aren’t they sweet?

By the way, yesterday, marriage equality got some support from a very unlikely individual:

[Illinois] State Republican party chairman Pat Brady was making calls to Republican lawmakers in support of gay marriage, legislative sources said, which could help win some votes for the measure.

When even a GOP leader can openly support gay marriage, you know it’s looking more and more like Illinois will be the next state where gays and lesbians are treated like first-class citizens. It also means the Catholic Church, the Illinois Family Institute, and other bastions of bigotry are quickly being left behind as the rest of us march toward progress.

About Hemant Mehta

Hemant Mehta is the editor of Friendly Atheist, appears on the Atheist Voice channel on YouTube, and co-hosts the uniquely-named Friendly Atheist Podcast. You can read much more about him here.

  • ortcutt

    ‘Bernard Schlager, a professor of gay studies at Pacific School of
    Religion, says George is wrong because “sexual behavior is an expression
    of human love.” Not to a woman who has been raped it isn’t.’ – Bill Donahue

    (It’s odd he doesn’t talk about children being raped instead.)

    I refuse to listen to anything these sickos say until they stop equating consensual same-sex relationships with rape. They seem to have no idea how disgusting comments like that are to victims of rape.

  • Gawd


    Put this on your CV Hemant!

  • Achron Timeless

    When I saw the title my first reaction was “Well heck, even I’ve pissed off the catholic league. It’s not hard. Most they do is spam up your blog for a few days before they get bored”.

    Then I saw you were mentioned by name in their newsletter. Bravo.

  • ggsillars


  • Steve

    Anything that pisses off the Catholic church and its minions is fine by me!!! Good one, Hemant.

  • Brian Westley

    “Wrong: Lesbians do not decide not to have children—their anatomy makes that call for them.”

    Holy mother of god, Batman! Lesbians can’t have children because of their anatomy?!!

  • Matthew Baker

    Doesn’t everyone/everything outside of the Pope and Mother Theresa piss off Bill Donahue?

  • Achron Timeless

    Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I know the A+ crowd has desensitized us to this, crying rape if you just look at them funny, but there are times when this is actually an issue. This would be one of them.

  • Baal

    “Marriage comes to us from nature,”… It’s not in our doctrine. It’s not a matter of faith.”

    Um, no. Nature is more than ok with homosexual activity. It doesn’t reduce the fitness of a species so long as enough hetero sex happens. Species perpetuation might be limited by the amount of hetero matting but other factors such as food, predation, habatat (etc.) are more likely the limiting factors. So ‘marriage’ is your doctrine and is a matter of faith.

    Were it not a matter of faith, would we see the push from the churches so strongly? Why else are the religions the main pushers against marriage equality? (hint your other choice is irrational bias)

  • Troy

    So if a pair of women who love each other want to raise a child thats a sin, but if a building full of women who hate themselves and wear church proscribed uniforms want to crappily raise hundreds of children thats ok?

  • ggsillars

    This one is misattributed to me.

  • Rev. Red Mage

    Achievement Unlocked – Apoplectic Fury
    42 G

    Bill Donahue has called you out by name.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Lying’s all they’ve got.

    Wear it like a badge of honor. Any time you piss the fundies off, you’re doing the right thing.

  • Anna

    You’ve made it to the big leagues! Pissing off Bill Donohue should be considered a rite of passage, LOL.

  • Antinomian

    Nice ‘rage’ Hement. It will be useful in the foretold “Civil War” when the national right to marraige equality comes to pass. You can be a ‘berserker’. I’ll provide the unholy hand grenades.

  • Liz Muia Frost

    Once a woman decides she’s a lesbian her uterus falls out.

  • Achron Timeless

    I have a very hilarious idea of what an unholy hand grenade would consist of, but it’s even a bit vulgar for me to throw on a classy blog like this. Suffice it to say, if you plugged it into a search engine… butt that’s the only hint I’ll give.

  • Pseudoname

    Marriage isn’t found anywhere in nature. It’s a human convention; one which was invented before Jesus ever existed and which is practiced in societies where Christians are a minority, like China. It’s ridiculous for the church to pretend that they have invented it, patented it and own the rights to it.
    Since marriage is a human convention and not a law like gravity, we can extend the right to get married to gay couples without any problem. I honestly find it ridiculous that anyone is still bothered by this. Gay marriage should be legal all over the world already.
    Well done for pissing off the Catholics. Please keep it up.

  • ggsillars

    This one’s not mine either, though I agree with it.

  • ggsillars

    Also not mine, but again, I concur.

  • ZackFord

    I don’t know about you, Hemant, but I was proud both that Bill Donahue reads our blogs and that we were mentioned together. :)

  • Daniel In The Lions’ Den

    Congrats Hemant Mehta on your official recognition by the Catholic League!

    It’s interesting to talk about what’s “Natural”. You are right-on about the concept that a cracker turning into a 2,000 year old, or even recent, dead man’s body not being “natural”. I could be wrong, but I thought all miracles, by definition, were not “natural”. Isn’t that why they are miracles?

    If the Catholic league (sounds like a group of super heroes) is serious about the “not natural” concept, I would venture that cars, antibiotics, the internet, foods grown from hybrids and grafted plants, agrichemicals (and therefore, almost everything that all Catholics eat at every meal, every day), are not “natural” because they don’t come from nature. They are all created by humans, often from very unnatural means. The “natural” argument is a red herring, designed to disguise the real issues: scape goating, bigotry, and keeping the flock scared and Catholic influence as strong as possible.

  • Brian Pansky

    I’m not your “us”

  • Dangerous Talk

    I loved your response, “You know what’s unnatural? A wafer magically turning into a
    2,000-year-old dead man’s body. But Cardinal George has no problem
    accepting that one.” Still, you didn’t even mention how Catholic priests fuck little children and the Vatican tries to cover it up. So all things considered, I thought you were pretty polite. ;-)

  • Patterrssonn

    Are you a poe? Cause even for an MRA that’s pretty rank.

  • Achron Timeless

    Well that was cryptic. I’d assume you’re a member of Peezus’ church of blame casting, but since that was rather vague I won’t even do you the honor of being anything other than bored with your attempt.

  • Achron Timeless

    Neither. Ooo lookit, someone who doesn’t fit in your boxes. Oh wait, now I’m being boxist. I guess that’s privilege about something or another…

  • 3lemenope

    I know the A+ crowd has desensitized us to this

    Responded to by

    I’m not your “us”

    And you’re confused? You find that cryptic? Okaaaay.

  • Achron Timeless

    I like bacon.

    See, if I just left it at that without this bit below it, it doesn’t make any sense. Sure, it’s a factual statement, but there’s no substance. If you’re going to take the time to respond, at least give a response.

  • Patterrssonn

    Oh I’m sure there’s a box for idiots

  • Achron Timeless

    I know, there’s a trail to it from your footsteps ;)

  • Rich Wilson

    The USA has too many guns which are used to kill circumcised babies. And abortions. And equal pay. And rape. And evolution. And the founding fathers were atheists/deists/fundamentalists. And atheists never go after Muslims. And Christians are persecuted in Egypt. And “separation of Church and State” is NOT in the constitution. Anything else?

    Let’s have every fucking topic all in one place so we can whine. Since this is really just a “high-5″ Hemant post, the complete loss of signal:noise won’t be a big deal. And maybe we can keep some of the noise away from more important posts.

  • Achron Timeless

    Yep, which is why I don’t mind these fools trying to pick a fight here. I can toy with them and not ruin a decent comment thread.

  • Benjamin

    I really wonder, how many Years it will take until the Catholic Church will admit defeat and start to claim that they actually were the leading force behind the push for marriage equality.

  • Cool

    Cool story, brah.

    You’re really cool. So cool. It’s just incredible, the coolness on display in your comments here. You sure showed them! Wanna do some reps later?

  • observer

    Random idea: Why don’t we just modify, or make, “citizen-model” hand guns that aren’t made for killing…

  • Darren

    Have to change your name, now, from the “The Friendly Atheist” to the more accurate “Hate Filled Rageholic Atheist”.

  • observer

    Oops, wrong post!

  • Achron Timeless

    Wow. Wanna try again or should I just score this one?

  • BrianE

    Geez, it’s not like you stuck a rusty nail in a host wafer or anything! :)

  • Mike B

    Throughout the middle ages, marriage was, for many, simply uttering the words, ‘I marry you’ three times with no priest in attendance. Of course, this casual, non-religious attitude drove the church to try and enforce church-based marriage, which it did through its courts, backed by state sanction.

    I don’t see how concepts of ‘natural’ even enter into this: it’s about the slow dying of church-controlled marriage, something it ‘unnaturally’ imposed on people’s lives in the first place.

  • Stev84

    They only know one kind of “sexual behavior”: sinful one. Everything sexual is equally sinful to them. So they can’t comprehend that there is a difference between masturbation, consensual sex (straight or gay) or rape.

  • 3lemenope

    “I like bacon” is perfectly comprehensible in itself, and its substance is the piece of information it conveys. It’s your objection that doesn’t make a lick of sense.

    “I’m not your ‘us’” pretty obviously means “you don’t speak for me” in response to a use of “us” that is meant to be comprehensive. It’s hard *not* to get that.

  • Miss_Beara

    Thanks for the afternoon laugh. :)

  • Achron Timeless

    I can never tell when you’re type is serious or just enjoying hearing themselves talk. I don’t speak for him, I don’t speak for you, nor do I speak for.. here, lemme get a phone book… this might take a while…

    Water is wet, fire is hot, the earth has an atmosphere. Would you like to make a big deal about those obvious statements since the bacon one went over your head? Or are you done?

  • 3lemenope

    I don’t speak for him, I don’t speak for you, nor do I speak for.. here, lemme get a phone book… this might take a while…

    Hence the objection to your use of “us”.

  • Ralph wiggum

    You mean like Tasers?

  • Richard Wade

    Congratulations, Hemant! This is a status symbol like being on Nixon’s Enemies List. People were eager to see if they could boast about having pissed off a pompous, paranoid bully. Keep up the good work!

  • Rich Wilson

    Or maybe it’s the reverse. After she runs a marathon, her uterus falls out, and THEN she becomes a lesbian.

  • Achron Timeless

    No one is this stupid…

    “us” = defines a set of human beings that agree with the statement.

    This is basic communication. You know this, but you’re pretending you don’t so you can try to rub my face in pedantic crap. I’ve just been curious how far you’d go to recreate Clinton’s famous “is” debate. I mean, you think you’re making me look stupid, by pretending you’re too stupid to understand common vernacular. Not sure where you’re going with that, but I suspect I might need popcorn.

  • ortcutt

    Except for what they do allow, which they inexplicably label “natural”. I’ve said it a million times, but Thomism is just making things up and calling them knowledge.

  • NoMore

    Since you’ve chosen to slander him as “hate filled”, I’d say his rebuttal is perfect.

  • Brian Westley

    Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

    Get it? Hysteria?

  • J-Rex

    And that’s why they end up raping kids. It’s very unnatural to suppress sexual behavior like that and it’s impossible that they won’t all mess up somehow. When they see having sex with an adult and raping a child as the same sin, they’ll be more likely to go with the one they think they can hide better.

  • Rich Wilson

    I always struggle when faced with speech I find objectionable. Do I ignore it and hope it goes away? On here do I just down vote it?

    I know if open my mouth it’s going to degenerate into a pissing match, and no matter which way the wind is blowing, we’re just going to get piss everywhere. I’d really rather not waste my time arguing shit like this with people who I know I’m not going to change, and I have to honor their right to say it, although I wish they’d pick fights in boxing rings or something, not at a nice dinner party.

    But whatever.

    When I see someone make some snark at some other person/group, I feel like I have an obligation to say something. I know the snarker will continue to snark, but I hope maybe it will make the snarkee feel not quite so alone.

    So some of us just ignore, and some of us just down vote (or up vote) and some of us have a psychological disorder that compels us to point out that we’re not part of the same ‘us’ group you’re referring to. Just so everyone knows, because that association bothers us enough that we really don’t want anyone to make that mistake.

  • Achron Timeless

    Psychological disorder eh?

    Given that little tirade, this should help you with that.

  • Guesty Guest

    Very droll.

  • Cool

    I’m not cool enough to score. Unlike you, who are so cool. And smart.

  • Rich Wilson
  • bob verhoff

    Sodomising and raping children is “natural” ? Nuns and priests not aloud to marry is “natural” ?
    Double standards for these people. I shouldn’t be giving the honorific “people” since they don’t seem to be human.

  • Achron Timeless

    Well hon, I’ve been awake for over 20 hours at this point, so I’m gonna hit the sack. Since you’re sooo upset about what people think of you and apparently buy into the A+ style of labeling behavior, I want to leave you with this: You’ve been throwing a fit at a bipolar transgendered woman who is suffering from insomnia due to a hypo-manic upswing. That would make you a misogynistic ablist, and you should be ashamed of yourself because I can’t help being irritated by irrational bullshit due to my condition.

    Fortunately, I feel dirty just typing that in jest. Yeah, it’s all true, but I don’t require special treatment for it, unlike you.

    (that would be “you” in the plural sense, meaning yourself and anyone else who runs around being an annoying pedant and claiming they’re doing it for the sake of some social justice bullshit)

    Thankfully, these pathetic attempts at hurting my feelings have bored me nearly to sleep.

  • CelticWhisper

    I really wish they’d stop doing that, too. I keep slipping and nearly cracking my head open with all of the abandoned uteruses on the ground outside the local chippendale’s club.

    We DO all remember that male strippers turn women into lesbians, right?


  • Words Have Meanings

    I’m surprised…I would have thought you would have been sent a fax or snail mail notification.

  • pagansister

    Hemant, I’m sure someone has said this already BUT—-Great Job–and you should be extra proud, you have been officially recognized by THE Catholic League. Take a bow! As for the statement regarding the practice/belief that that little wafer magically turns into flesh from a 2000 year old person — and wine turning into blood of that same dead guy? They seem to think that eating flesh and drinking blood is fine and dandy. That is scary. All you did was point out the obvious—cannibalism is part of their sacraments. Congratulations on your achievement.

  • Randomfactor

    Because if there’s ANYTHING that’s completely natural, it’s the exchange of smelted-metal rings bearing facet-cut crystals, performed inside an engineered structure under artificial lighting, wearing rented or dearly-bought clothing under the paid organization of a wedding planner. The antelope do that ALL the time.

  • Randomfactor

    But you know what behavior you NEVER see in the animal world? Religion. Oh, and voluntary celibacy.

  • Randomfactor

    I’m not his “us” either.

  • Ryan S

    “Bill Donohue’s smile is perfectly natural.” – Classic!

  • chicago dyke

    honestly, this is why i lean more and more towards bloggers just ignoring his sad, tired, old ass. he’s using your growing popularity to seem “relevant” still, when the truth is without massive nazi church funding and right wing TV, almost no one would know or care about who he is and what he espouses.

    seriously, how many dues paying members of the “league” live in your neighborhood? i’ve never met one, and i’ve lived next door to lots of religious folks, including baptists, jews, hindus, wiccans, santerians… and could he be any more old, out of touch, and lazy? here’s an idea bill: get a job. a real job. where you have to do something other than whine about gays and atheists in email all day. i bet you can’t, you lazy fuckstick. you need your pedophile buddies in the church to pay for the kiddie raping pork harvesters who feed you. and you know it.

  • 3lemenope

    I’m with you there. I’m constantly surprised people take the Catholic League at all seriously. Then again, I never really understood why anyone ever did, so there’s that.

  • Godlesspanther

    I think it was not Tim Minchin, but Bill Donohue who really wrote The Pope Song.


    Bill Donohue is the living, breathing, definition of “professional victim.” He represents everything I came to loath about the Catholic church.

  • SteveS

    Let’s see if I have all this… Billy (the overpaid attack dog of the Catholic League) who no doubt, gets most of his salary channeled to him courtesy of the RCC is incensed that Hemant called the RCC’s sacrement unnatural. The RCC claims said sacrement turns fish food-like wafers and cheap red wine into the blood and flesh of their god – Jesus. (But, does’t count cannibalism as one of their sins.) Meanwhile, Cardinal George (an old man who runs around in dresses and claims to be celibate, leads a pack of other men in dresses who claim to be celibate – and occasionally rape children) says it is unnatural for men to marry men and women to marry women; but nuns can marry Jesus and priests can simply pray away their sexuality… Back at the farm, Jesus never married and went camping with 12 guys for 3 years. I don’t think these people would know ‘natural’ from a hole in the ground.

  • SeekerLancer

    Congrats Hemant! Successful troll is successful!

  • coyotenose

    Excellent job of not coming anywhere near mocking PZ et cetera’s actual arguments. By their always coming back to the same topic whether or not it relates shall you know them.

  • coyotenose

    You picked it actually. Then posted about how smart you are. The comments are still there.

    Ever hear the saying about people who declare themselves victors on the Internet?

  • coyotenose

    Oh ffs, he was being sarcastic.

  • jose


  • ortcutt

    Beyond that, nature isn’t synonymous with what increases reproductive fitness. Everything that occurs in the world is natural. Twinkies are natural. The Internet is natural. Both acts of kindness and great cruelty are both natural. If there is no supernatural (which there isn’t), then “natural” is a term that includes everything there is.

  • WhatPaleBlueDot

    Rape isn’t an expression of human love. But of course it is an expression of God’s love when he turns it into a baby. Right? I really can’t keep these ideas Catholics have of sex straight.

  • 3lemenope

    They wear big gloves?

  • Pluto Animus

    Hemant, my boy, you’ve made it to the big time.


  • wmdkitty

    Can’t believe it took him this long to get round to you, actually. Then again, when he gets his teeth into someone, he doesn’t let go easily.

  • wmdkitty

    Speak for yourself, plz.

  • wmdkitty

    Twinkies, whatever they may be, are NOT natural. They are an Abomination.

  • wmdkitty

    Um… I believe I owe you an apology for acting like a right asshole the other day, so…


  • Achron Timeless

    I’ve yet to hear an actual argument from them today.

    So far in this little spat, we’ve got accusations that I’m part of an organization that is their mirror image (no wonder they fear it), a pedant thinking the most important part of any conversation he could be having was pretending to misunderstand the meaning of the word “us” and really doing a good show of it, and someone who tried the usual idiot “cool story bro” meme.

    So where’s the argument to address?

    There wasn’t one. Sure, I made a reference to an issue well associated with their movement, and they had nothing but petty insults to come back with. There’s no point in trying to actually discussing anything of importance at that point. Best you can do is have a little fun till they run with their tails tucked because nothing useful is going to come out of it.

    Either that, or they’re so far gone that they think those were arguments, in which case there’s nothing I can do for them.

  • Achron Timeless

    Ah, the ol’ allude to a quote that doesn’t exist and then not provide it while declaring victory tactic. How’s that working out for you?

    Have to ask, has that actually worked on anyone?

  • cipher

    It took him this long?

    (And that picture is very creepy.)

  • Achron Timeless

    Let me ask you something, in all seriousness… which is the biggest danger?

    That someone would actually be claiming to speak for the entire planet, which of course didn’t happen… or a group of self important people dragging the concept through the mud with fake “sexism” so that no one will pay attention to actual sexism? Which will cause you more personal harm in the future?

    We’ve talked before, I know you’re smarter than thinking I was claiming to speak for anyone but myself or the people who might agree with me. What you have to ask yourself is what caused you to shut off that ability and act like this was actually an issue. After evaluating that, if you still want to cut off your nose to spite your face, have at.

  • meekinheritance

    So it *is* a decision. ;-)

  • ReadsInTrees

    How does nature support one-man-one-woman marriage? All signs from nature show that humans are not supposed to be monogamous at all.

  • allein

    Twinkie, Deconstructed: My Journey to Discover How the Ingredients Found in Processed Foods Are Grown, Mined (Yes, Mined), and Manipulated into What America Eats

  • walkamungus

    SEX comes to us from nature, Bill!!! [note caps and interrobangs]

    Rock ‘n’ roll, Hemant!

  • Neil Robinson

    Let’s not overlook the claim in the archbishop’s twaddle that ‘marriage comes to us from nature’. That must be why we see llamas, ostriches, newts and seahorses tying the knot with each other in formal marriage ceremonies.

    It’s fairly evident from the fact that we are the only species to engage in marriage that it is a social construct, created by human beings for human beings. As such, we can have it however we want, by defining it however we want – whatever the religious wingnuts may say.

  • amycas

    Just no. Don’t do that.

  • amycas

    Maybe we should just downvote it. Then threads won’t be bogged down by people like Achron stirring shit that doesn’t need to be stirred.

  • amycas

    Pretty sure you’re the one who picked a fight by denigrating a group that has nothing to do with this post.

  • coyotenose

    “PZ et cetera’s actual arguments” was clearly not a reference to other posters on this thread. It was a reference to the mangling of PZ’s and others’ positions in order to have something to hold against them. “Thunderf00ting” them, if you will.

    The only “name” who came anywhere close to what you’re describing almost immediately recanted, because his own people set him straight on how he sounded.

    Bringing up a hatred of A+ types without provocation and misrepresenting them is a common MRA trope. That was where I was going with my second sentence in the previous comment, but it obviously lacked clarity. If you don’t like being associated with them, you may not want to use one of their best-known openers.

    “I can toy with them and not ruin a decent comment thread” and “Thankfully, these pathetic attempts at hurting my feelings have bored me nearly to sleep,” among other quotes = declaring victory. Granted, it’s impossible to NOT win against “Cool story, brah”…

    You might also want to reread from the top. You insulted at least two people just for stating that they don’t agree with you.

    I hope you were able to fall asleep. I try to not write when my sleep schedule is off for pretty much this reason. (Not an attempt to be snarky, insomnia is torturous and fucks up social interactions.)

  • coyotenose

    I was going to ask, “Why would the uteruses (uterii?) be on the ground? Wouldn’t the lesbians be wearing underwear and/or pants?”… but then possible replies came to mind and it seemed best to not start anything.

  • coyotenose

    I feel so ashamed upvoting this… *clicks*

  • Ibis3

    “Natural” has three antonyms.

    “Supernatural” (everything that we’ve observed is subject to the laws of physics and so is natural) is only one of them. The others are “artificial” (everything that is not designed, created, or influenced by human beings [or other sentient species] is natural), and “unnatural” (human behaviours that are condoned by a just and ethical society [often equated with divine command or "natural law"] are natural*). It is foolish to equivocate* and pretend that they are using one when they are using another usage, unless you’re doing it for rhetorical effect, as Hemant did in his original joke.

    *Of course this usage has its own problems, one being that there are no gods to command anything, so natural becomes “whatever the men in charge think things should be like,” another being the vulnerability to equivocation with usage number 2 and resulting Natural Fallacy, still another being the othering of people who do unethical things, i.e. demonizing, which can make it difficult to recognise flaws in a cultural system that produces flawed humans.

  • Anna

    No worries, Kitty! :o)

  • Achron Timeless

    Still at this eh? Ok, I’ll just run through it. Not that it’ll matter, you don’t actually want to hear where you’ve gotten things horribly wrong.

    PZ et al’s arguments seem to be ‘don’t be sexist but pick a card and I’ll have sex with you’ ‘you don’t have the right to offend ME but I can say whatever I want about YOU’ as well as the beginning of elevatorgate “Don’t take this the wrong way…” immediately being taken the wrong way in her next sentence in that video. It’s bordering on cult mentality at this point. They wish to dictate what people can say, what they can wear, how they can feel, and what they can think at least in the venue of conventions. They’ve try to spread out from there with their fun little social media rants. If you dare be skeptical of their claims, as you’d naturally expect from the skeptic community, you’re branded a rape apologist because that’s the meanest thing they’ve come up with so far. The sideliners usually go with MRA as you and one other have. As soon as they manufacture a worse ridiculous label, they’ll use it instead. Don’t even get me started on the children’s summer camp crafts project “jewelry” that one particular member claims worldwide originality on and brands everyone else “fake”.

    Gee, couldn’t imagine why anyone would get tired of that…

    As for “declaring victory”, if you think someone pretending that they’ve forgotten the meaning and usage of the word “us” is something that can be lost, you might wanna put down the kool-aid. The only thing approaching an insult was actually not, since I said there’s no way they could be that stupid. Since you missed the point, I was merely bringing attention to the fact that it was obviously an act to claim sympathy or to wave around some word ending in -ist later.

    Since you’re the only one that has been able to actually form an argument, despite being misguided on a few points, I’m at least discussing this with you. Isn’t that funny? Come with something that sounds reasonable and you get a reasonable response, but come with bullshit and I pass the hours poking back with a sharp stick. It’s the inverse golden rule. I treat people how they treat me.

    Now at this point it should be abundantly clear that I don’t care what you or the rest of them think about me or what labels you want to slap on me. I could call you a Polish Stegosaurus, but it doesn’t make it so. The point was twofold. Make the people who are able to think about the topic a bit more, and for those who are dogpiling because they’ve been trained to over in that cesspool of a forum… well playing target let’s the world see how they act. Of course, have to keep poking or they just do a driveby “misogynist” and pat themselves on the back.

    The end result is our conventions are being taken over by people who not only don’t want skeptical questioning of their position, but actively try to suppress it. In doing so they’ve started crying wolf at misogyny and “rape culture” to the point that people are becoming desensitized. This will not end well. People are being shunned or just annoyed away from conventions, but to what end? Do they really just want to stand in front of a mostly empty room and talk? Do they want REAL gender inequality to be dismissed because people are tired of everyone making such a big deal over nothing all this time? Do we really want to let anyone add “fake jewelry” to convention guidelines for the sake of ONE person’s feelings? What about the right of people to make parody to comment on their actions?

    A+ is poison. It will destroy the atheist movement’s credibility that we’ve fought so long to gain. So, do you want that?

  • coyotenose

    I saw the first sentence and am not bothering to read the rest of whatever defensive insults you’ve posted. You wanted to lead off with misdirected dismissiveness, so consider yourself dismissed in return.

  • wmdkitty

    Meh. Go back to the cesspit you crawled out of.

  • Achron Timeless

    That is why you will never do anything but act the way you’re told to. Willful ignorance is the most pathetic of human abilities.

    Thanks for proving me wrong though, if you actually read it instead of acting like a child, you’d see I did you the honor of actually discussing the situation since you seemed interested. I see I wasted my time.

  • Achron Timeless

    Ah, so realizing you’ve jumped at something that didn’t exist, you can only attempt insults rather than admit any fault or learn from the experience. It’s an odd thing to see a skeptic who doesn’t work in reality.

  • wmdkitty

    No, just have better things to do with my time than waste it on an empty-headed male supremacist. Like, oh… watching paint dry.

  • Achron Timeless

    *facepalm* I’m a bloody transsexual ya daft git. I stand on the threshold, so I see this gender bullshit a little differently. Supremacists, be it female or male, are both wrong. Just because I oppose both of them doesn’t make me their opposite.

    FFS, it’s like saying if I’m against christianity I’m automatically a muslim. You can be neither.

  • Carpinions

    I say you should wear the “I pissed off Bill Donohue and all I got was a nameless backtrack” shirt with honor. Nothing delights me more than seeing that pissant Vatican water carrier get flop sweats over someone not giving him and Catholicism in general unquestioned respect.