This is the Student Who Blew the Whistle on Muldrow High School’s Ten Commandments Plaques

Earlier today, I posted about the Ten Commandments plaques that hang in every classroom in Muldrow High School (Oklahoma). As the story went, after an anonymous atheist student contacted the Freedom From Religion Foundation, the FFRF contacted the school and the plaques will now almost certainly be taken down after the school board discusses the incident at Monday’s meeting.

But the plaques won’t be coming down without a fight.

“It’s Christianity under attack within our own country,” said Josh Moore, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Muldrow, Okla.

Parent Denise Armer told KHOG she supports the students’ efforts to save the Ten Commandment plaques.

“If other kids don’t want to read the Ten Commandments, then they don’t have to,” she said. “But that doesn’t mean that they have to make everyone else do what they want.”

I guess no one taught these Christians the way the law works. Give it a couple of days, though, because they’re about to find out.

During this whole debacle, which really picked up steam on Wednesday, the student who alerted the FFRF to the constitutional violation has been under the radar. Some commenters online have even insinuated that there was no student — that FFRF is just picking on them because they’re Christians.

Well, let’s put that rumor to rest right now.

Gage Pulliam is the junior who began this whole controversy and he told me his side of the story today, the side you’re not hearing in all the news reports currently out there.

Gage Pulliam, the student who blew the whistle on his school’s disregard for the Constitution (via Facebook)

Gage, an atheist for several years now, sat in classrooms with these plaques since freshman year. It didn’t take long for him to realize that they were actually illegal. After browsing Reddit Atheism (where these kinds of stories are rampant) and looking at the FFRF’s website, he finally mustered up enough courage a couple of months ago to contact them. In order to offer some proof that this was really happening, he took a picture of one of the plaques in his Biology classroom when no one else was looking. FFRF took it from there and sent the district a complaint letter last week.

Things really picked up steam in the middle of the week after a friend of Gage’s found out what he had done and told a few others. Word spread quickly. In small town Oklahoma, Gage told me, little things can become big deals when they involve religion.

By Thursday, students were passing around petitions to save the Commandments and spreading word that one local church was giving away shirts with the Ten Commandments on them for free so that everyone could wear them this coming Wednesday.

At least one pastor seems to understand where Gage is coming from, though. Aaron Tiger, a pastor at Trinity United Methodist Church, reached out to him via Reddit, toed the line, and publicly wrote about why Christians should obey the law in this case even if they didn’t agree with it:

So what do we do? Do we fight to keep the 10 Commandments on the walls or do we make sure that God’s laws are written on our hearts and lived out in our lives? Is it more important to wage a legal battle about freedom of religion or is it more important to wage a spiritual battle for the souls of our neighbors… It is vitally important that we support our administration and our school board. They have laws that they must follow to run a state and federally supported school. They did not initiate these 10 Commandments to be taken down, but they understand the position that the school is in. There is a school board meeting on Monday night at 6:00 P.M., and we are inviting all our church members to go to support the administration.

I asked Gage what his parents thought about all of this. He said his mother, a non-theist, has been supportive the whole way though she’s worried about his safety. His dad, who’s religious, wasn’t supportive at first, but came around to Gage’s side after hearing more about the issue. The biggest concern on dad’s end is for Gage’s sister, an eighth grader.

She’s in middle school, and the way her classmates are treating her, you would think she was the person who contacted FFRF in the first place. There’s been no physical harassment, but students have said mean things to her, some won’t look at her, and in one instance she couldn’t even get a class project done because her group members refused to talk to her. She understands why Gage is fighting this battle and generally agrees with it (as much as an eighth grader can, anyway), but it’s still tough to deal with the entire school bus “screaming at her.”

Some students have also told Gage’s girlfriend that he should stay from them or else they’ll punch him. Gage sees these as petty threats that probably won’t be carried out, but still.

So why did he agree to let me “out” him on this site?

He actually wanted to remain anonymous. But on Thursday, when students were reacting to this obvious discrimination against Christians, other students began getting blamed for alerting FFRF, including some of Gage’s atheist friends. He didn’t want to be the hero (to us) or the target (of the bullies), but he couldn’t bear to see his friends getting treated badly for something he did. That’s when he began telling the students who were pointing fingers in the wrong direction that he was the one who started this. He hoped that this post would help take the heat off his friends, too.

All signs point to the plaques being taken down very soon, but Gage still has a year left at Muldrow High School. Was he worried about any ramifications during his senior year? Gage said his parents were concerned that his future teachers, unhappy with the plaques being taken down, might alter his grades as a passive method of revenge… but Gage didn’t think they would do that. They might dislike him personally, but he couldn’t see them taking it out on his GPA. In fact, in the years he’s been at that high school, he’s rarely seen instances of proselytizing in the classroom.

Gage ended our conversation with one final point:

“I want people to know this isn’t me trying to attack religion. This is me trying to create an environment for kids where they can feel equal.”

I can’t tip enough hats to him. I hope his bravery sets an example for other students who witness this kind of blatant disregard for church/state separation. Let them learn from Gage and build up the courage to do what’s right even when it’s unpopular to do so.

About Hemant Mehta

Hemant Mehta is the chair of Foundation Beyond Belief and a high school math teacher in the suburbs of Chicago. He began writing the Friendly Atheist blog in 2006. His latest book is called The Young Atheist's Survival Guide.

  • C Peterson

    If removing the Ten Commandments from school rooms amounts to an attack on religion, it seems more like one on Judaism than on Christianity.

  • http://twitter.com/GammaAtheist Gamma Atheist

    Thank you for this post, this is one of the many reasons why I enjoy following your blog so much. This is yet again another truly inspiring story, this young man is very brave, knowing he would face a lot of opposition he still stood up for what he believed in.
    He needs to know that he has a strong community here to support him, if he ever feels alone. If he ever needs to talk to someone or what not, I am available.

  • Guest

    I’m a senior at Muldrow High School and I know gage. And I just want to say everything has been peaceful between us Christian students and atheist students. One of my good friends is atheist and there has been no hostility. But you know we are just backwoods Inbreds so what do we know

    • mdoc

      Who said you were backwoods inbreds? That is a terrible thing to say. I question your comment about no hostility. From what Mehta posted it seems like there in fact has been some blow back. I am especially concerned about the apparent shunning of the sister.

    • jdm8

      Any word or confirmation on how his sister has been treated?

      • Greyson

        i have not heard anything on her. but if i do, ill come right back here and post, i will bookmark this page. i dont want anyone getting hurt, i would rather have the commandments come down then have an innocent person hurt.

    • Mackinz

      None of us are insinuating that you are a “backwoods inbred”, but I’m glad to hear that the hostility has been kept to a minimum (at least from your point of view).

      The same could not be said for other atheist children who have received death threats from their neighbors because they wanted their schools to obey the law instead of appealing to the majority religion.

      So, if I were you, I’d keep a look-out for signs of hostility, and do my best to ensure that the rising amount of non-religious students, like Gage, can go to school and be respected for who they are, instead of being oppressed by a Christian majority that would rather them dead than have equal rights.

      • Greyson

        that is 100% false. we arent wishing death on anyone. one of my best friends is an atheist, and he respects our beliefs and we respect his, thats how it is. but like i said, middle schools are 100X worse then High Schools. and i am ensuring gages safety with my remaining time at MHS. but i can say, that we have a number of atheists and a number of christians, of course we have our own groups of people we like to hang out with but ive befriended gage since his freshman year because im good friends with his brother logan.

        • allein

          No one said you were wishing death on anyone, but there have been other similar cases where the person who reported the school did indeed receive threats from the “good Christians” in their communities.

          • Greyson

            I get what you were saying, i was an Atheist at one point in my life. i questioned everything that crossed me, but accusations do not need to be made. he is safe, there is a police officer at our school 24/7

            • Mackinz

              It wasn’t so much of an accusation, as a warning based upon similar experiences that other young Atheists, like Jessica Ahlquist, have had when dealing with a zealous Christian community that does not care what the First Amendment states.

              Even now, if you did not already know, some people are attempting to spin Gage’s request as Anti-Christian and against religious freedom.

              These people may not be you, but they exist. There are going to be people who curse at Gage, and there will be people who wish he would die. There will also be people who support him, which you are, and fight for the law instead of the majority.

              This is not an accusation. It is a warning. Be prepared, because batshit crazy isn’t a rare phenomenon when “religious liberty” is at stake in these United States.

              • Greyson

                the thing is i dont support what gage is doing. but i do support the safety and well being of other people no matter what there belief is. The United States was founded on freedom from religious persecution. now the school may not be aloud to promote spiritual expression but it most certainly will not stop us students. would it be such a crime to change the name of said plaques to something other then the Ten Commandments? maybe then everyone could be happy.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  the name of said plaques to something other then the Ten Commandments?

                  If the content was still the same, yes, it would still be illegal.

                • allein

                  Unless you change the text, it is still the Ten Commandments. There is nothing stopping individual students from putting the commandments up in their lockers, writing them on their notebook covers, carrying bibles, praying during their free time, starting an after-school bible club, etc. The school put these plaques up and it has been established time and again that this is illegal promotion of religion by a government entity. There really is no argument there.

                • Mackinz

                  Well, it’s good that you support the safety of Gage, but it would still be against the law if the plaques resembled any (emphasis here) religion or religious text. Changing the name of the plaques does nothing when the content is still Judeo-Christian and the school is still showing preference to Christian mythology and isolating those who do not follow or believe in it. That is still against the law, and still a violation of Gage’s (and everyone’s) religious freedoms.

                  You really ought to support what Gage is doing. He is not fighting the right for religious folks to display their religious faith publicly. What he is fighting for is equality, for neutrality, for the principles set forth in the Constitution of the United States of America. If you were truly faithful, you would not need to be constantly reminded of your religion at school, at the cost of the freedoms of the non-Christians who attend.

                • Mackinz

                  Well, it’s good that you support the safety of Gage, but it would still be against the law if the plaques resembled any (emphasis here) religion or religious text. Changing the name of the plaques does nothing when the content is still Judeo-Christian and the school is still showing preference to Christian mythology and isolating those who do not follow or believe in it. That is still against the law, and still a violation of Gage’s (and everyone’s) religious freedoms.

                  You really ought to support what Gage is doing. He is not fighting the right for religious folks to display their religious faith publicly. What he is fighting for is equality, for neutrality, for the principles set forth in the Constitution of the United States of America. If you were truly faithful, you would not need to be constantly reminded of your religion at school, at the cost of the freedoms of the non-Christians who attend.

                • Greyson

                  but as i said earlier, its basically wall decoration just like a certain teachers Oklahoma State poster. what about the Oklahoma University fans? the thing is i support my faith and though i dont need to be reminded of its nice knowing its there. believe it or not MHS is a very accepting place, this is an instance where we are simply fighting for what we believe in, we have jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims. we do not pressure anyone into anything, the teachers do not push religious teachings on students. i do know what gage is doing and i also dont take it as an attack on my faith, i simply wish that the commandments remain on the walls of our class rooms if our teachers choose to keep them. It is his right to speak his mind and what he believes and i support free thinking as much as any atheist or agnostic. for goodness sakes my mother is a pagan. i dont mean to offend if i am, but we also have to right to PEACEFULLY act in response to gages efforts. but i will make sure he is not bullied or hurt in all of this.

                • Baby_Raptor

                  Yeah, we get it. We hear it every time something like this comes up. You simply want your privilege protected and special rules made for you. You don’t really care about the rights of anyone else involved; you just want to be made to feel special by having special reminders everywhere.

                • Mackinz

                  An Oklahoma State University poster is also not against the law, as it is not a violation of the law for one teacher to show his support for a college, but the ten commandment plaques (note: plural) are in EVERY classroom and constitute a public endorsement of religion.

                  Why should it decorate the walls of your classroom where it infringes upon the rights of non-Judeo-Christians? Why not let it decorate the walls of your heart, where it infringes upon no rights?

                  Why does your religion deserve special treatment over Gage’s non-religion?

                  No one is saying that you cannot wear one of those Ten Commandment T-Shirts, and that you cannot follow the Ten Commandments to the letter if you so desired. But, what they are asking for is respect for the law, and for those who do not follow your religion, as no religion is supposed to get special treatment by the law, according to the First Amendment.

                • Greyson

                  i want to point out that the Commandments arent in every class room. there is no special attention given. i invite anyone to come see what our school is like.

                • Mackinz

                  I’m sorry. I do not attend your school, so I was just running with the information given to me, which says that it hangs in every classroom (which may or may not be a hyperbole).

                  But, even if it’s not in every classroom, it is still against the law.

                • Greyson

                  though our school has questionable policies like no facial hair, which was put in place to help make the young men who cant grow facial hair not feel bad, its a great place and we do not receive a biased education like some may think. our math isnt 2+2=Jesus. its still 4. but i do understand.

                • Earl G.

                  I am glad to hear that you want this to be peaceful and wish to protect Gage and his sister from harm.

                  However, please understand that the 10 Commandments hanging in a government-run, taxpayer-funded classroom is a violation of the rights of all the Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, nontheists, etc. in your school. How would you feel with the Koran enshrined at the front of every classroom? Or with a portrait of Ganesh hanging over every whiteboard? And what if you asked for them to be taken down (in accordance with the law) and got bullied for it by busloads full of Muslims or Hindus?

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  It is his right to speak his mind and what he believes

                  He can wear a cross. He can’t put put one religion on the wall. He doesn’t have to hide that he is a Christian, but he can’t make the environment Christian. The classroom doesn’t belong to the teacher, it belongs to the students. Every student in that classroom has an equal right to feel accepted and included in that classroom.

                • allein

                  If it’s just “wall decoration” why is it such a big deal if they take it down?

                • WallofSleep

                  The thing is, public schools are a state agency, and no state agency or representative thereof should be allowed to promote any religion, nor any kind of atheism. That would be in direct violation of the constitution.

                  As far as you and your fellow students promoting “spiritual expression”, you are not a state agency or a representative thereof, so I doubt anyone here would object to that.

                • Baby_Raptor

                  Of course you don’t. Christers really never support anything that gives anyone but themselves rights.

                  Now here’s the issue with what you’re saying: The students don’t own the school. The government does. So it’s not the students who are on the hook when Christian laws are plastered all over the classroom; it’s the school, aka the government.

                  Your rights are not being stepped on here. Your rights have nothing to do with this. You still have the right to talk about your beliefs, promote them with your own actions and wear clothes that promote them. The school has to remain neutral And the school remaining neutral does NOT violate your rights or persecute you in any way.

                  And, really, if you think your proposed solution would work, I doubt you’re in high school. Changing the name of something does not change the thing. You would still have christian law all over the walls, you’d just have a lie for a title on all of the plaques. Doesn’t your god hate lying?

                • Lilu Kanine

                  The taxpayers own the school.

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  What you should do is wear the 10 commandments on your shirt, or put them on your locker. Those are personal expressions of your religious belief.

                  The school should not be putting up anything particular to one religion. If they want to have a display of the tenets of numerous religions, that would be ok, but they’d have to put the Five Pillars of Islam up next to the Ten Commandments, and maybe include the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights.

                • Atticus Dogsbody

                  You’re a senior? You might want to put your Bible down for a while and spend some time with a dictionary and a grammar.

                • Lilu Kanine

                  Grammar nazi.

                • Atticus Dogsbody

                  *Grammar Nazi.

                  Get it right.

            • E. Cedric

              There were armed security guards at Columbine – for all the good that did.

              • Greyson

                Muldrow also has 500 students at the high school compared to columbine. we arent crazed religious nuts popular to contrary belief. we simply wish the commandments remain.

                • E. Cedric

                  Semantics Greyson. And your numbers are meaningless when it comes to armed guards and guns.

                  As for “crazed religious nuts” – that is the semantic game. Let us speak in fact:

                  You and a majority of the Christians at your school wish to bypass established US law that protects all, all so you and yours can look at a set of arbitrary guidelines on a piece of paper that may or may not have been given by some “god”. You and a majority of your Christian schoolmates, administration and teachers coerce and place pressure on non-believers all while you break the law.

                  And that is the crux of the issue, keeping the pieces of paper with your alleged “god’s” commandments on it breaks the law. Let me say that again; it breaks the law.

                  So while we may have a semantic shell game going on, it comes down to the fact that you and yours wish to break the law.

                • Greyson

                  i haven’t been rude, so i ask that you not question my faith in my God. thank you for that. but what im not understanding the United States was established based on the principal of social and religious freedoms. as i have said before, the school, meaning teachers, administrators, lunch ladies, custodians, and secretaries have not pressured anyone into anything.

                • Baby_Raptor

                  As has been explained to you before, when posters of *any religion* are left up around the school, that is the school endorsing the religion. The school does not belong to the students. It belongs to the government.

                  And the law says that the government cannot endorse religion.

                  So that’s where your issue is coming in. Yes, the US was based on religious freedom. Religious freedom for *everyone,* not just people who happen to like Jesus Christ.

                  And, you know…I’d say openly advocating for the ignoring of other peoples’ rights is rude.

                • Lilu Kanine

                  Again, the school belongs to the taxpayers.

                • E. Cedric

                  I’ve not been rude Greyson, I have used facts. Facts are neither rude nor polite – do you understand that?

                  If you are having a hard time understanding the establishment clause of the US Constitution, I would say you need to get some good books and read them.

                  I would also recommend you compare your history class curriculum with those taught at less “christiany” schools so that you get a clear and unbiased education on the laws of our country.

                  And you are being obtuse and disingenuous. The school, teachers et al ARE pressuring people by the mere presence of the ten commandments, the “alleged rules of god” hanging on the walls. That is a form of pressure and coercion.

                  It is illegal and it is not right to promote any religion via the state, let alone the one you chose to follow

                • onamission5

                  ” we simply wish the commandments remain”
                  Because…??

                • Greyson

                  its a good reminder of the right things in life that should be done. if you ignore the first four, its basically a moral compass.

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  I’ve always thought the one about coveting your neighbors things to be antithetical to capitalism.

                • Greyson

                  hahahaha i like you rich, but if your serious, it means respect everyone. which i am, i cant speak for others, but i can speak for myself as a active supporter of gay marriage.

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  And I like your active inspection of your own beliefs. We should all look for ways that we are wrong, and be open to being wrong. If we find out we’re wrong about something, it means we gain knowledge, and that can only be good.

                  Peace.

                • Greyson

                  dueces

                • Charles Honeycutt

                  The Commandment about honoring one’s mother and father was written for a culture that backed it up with death threats.

                  The Commandments about adultery and coveting one’s neighbor’s wife were written for a culture in which women were considered property. It even says so, equating the wife to the husband’s other possessions.

                  The Commandments about killing and false witness did not apply to those outside of the tribe.

                  There’s a reason only two of the Commandments are Federal law, and those ones predate Judaism by quite a bit.

                  That moral compass fails to mention rape, slavery, incest or pedophilia. That’s because those were all fine within the culture that wrote that book, as long as you did them to people that didn’t matter.

                • Lilu Kanine

                  It’s fascinating to hear unbelievers explain laws they don’t have a hope of understanding. ROFL

                • Earl G.

                  So the 10 Commandments are so important that we should violate the Constitution in order to hang them up … but 40% of them should be ignored?

                • Ibis3

                  The one about coveting your neighbours’ things includes your neighbour’s wife. It treats women as chattel. That’s immoral.

                  It commands you to honour your parents without regard to whether your parents are abusive assholes.

                  And the first one (which you want to ignore) tells all the students that they must obey your god to the exclusion of all others–a clear violation of their own right to religious freedom.

                • tinker
                • Willy Occam

                  Ah, George… you were a wise man.

                • Matthew Welch

                  You wish for your school to break the law, then, that is the long and short of it. Your school cannot break the law.

        • Leiningen’s Ants
    • http://www.facebook.com/cathy.paulino.9 Cathy Paulino

      Perhaps you aren’t “backwoods inbred”, but there are apparently several who are mean and nasty (especially at your middle school) who, if not inbred, are certainly NOT Christian.

      • Greyson

        some certainly dont act like it. but i can speak for them, all i can do is speak for myself and ensure some sense of security for gage and logan. but its not just my middle school, i promise every middle school is full of little hooligans who dont know right from wrong. i certainly dont condone behavior as such. if anyone where to hurt my little brother who also attends MMS i would certainly need to attend my church after all is said and done.

    • Matthew Welch

      This is the opposite of what the article says, so forgive me if I am inclined to think the bullies are the ones that are lying, not Gage or his sister.

    • Leiningen’s Ants

      You know enough that all your recesive genes will be annihilated if you produce offspring with someone who is totally not your race. Date a black girl. How did I know you were white? Intuition.

    • Leiningen’s Ants

      Google “disingenuous.”

  • Mario Strada

    Courageous guy. Too bad I live so far away or I would volunteer a few security shifts for him should things degenerate.

    I have one suggestion for the atheist students: move in groups and have at least one person record video or at least audio just in case.

    It’s not just to get the Christians saying compromising, hateful and threatening things, they have facebook for that apparently, but to keep a record should something worse than a few fuck yous should happen.

    The irony is that his classmates should really learn from this rather than go around chest thumping like good Jesus soldiers. They should learn about the constitution, real religious freedom (which amazingly is not the right to impose your religion on any minority with the misfortune to live in your community) and finally they should learn about fighting for what is right.

    • E. Cedric

      Absolutely – and this includes any interaction with admin, teachers or law enforcement who try to coerce Gage and sister into any uncomfortable situation.

      Gage – if you read this, I am happy to send you a video camera or such if need be to ensure your safety. I applaud your efforts and these efforts deserve support.

  • http://gadlaw.com gadlaw

    Brave fellow indeed. I hope you keep an eye and the spotlight on for him and his family.

  • http://www.facebook.com/michaeldavidbarber.moghul Michael David Barber Moghul

    This is a good lesson for all the kids. Face the law in a Constitutional Republic, OR RETIRE TO A MONASTERY.

    • Beatonfam

      Thank you for saying constitutional republic because, well, that’s what we are.

  • http://www.facebook.com/brandie.winchester Brandie Lynn Winchester

    Its sad that the first response from these so called Christians is to attack this boy verbally, and to go as far as to harass his sister. If these plaques mean so much to them and are so important to their religious convictions then why are they not following them in the first place. “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:36-40). But I guess this only pertains to a neighbor that is christain, scew everyone else.

  • timberwraith

    It’s mind boggling how people will go out of their way to behave like utter shitheels after you’ve effectively challenged their privileges, no matter how just the cause is.

    Humans can be pretty disappointing.

    I’m not sure what else to say.

    • http://friendlyatheist.com Richard Wade

      I can fully understand your disappointment, and perhaps what else to say is that other humans can be very inspiring.

  • Guest

    Previous comments calling all of backwoods inbreds. Not by any of you. His sister in middle school and everyone knows high school and middle school are two completely different things.

    • Leiningen’s Ants

      I lick your hick eye drips~<3

  • http://twitter.com/Cos2mwiz2 Cos2mwiz2

    BRAVO Gage!

  • http://www.facebook.com/michaeldavidbarber.moghul Michael David Barber Moghul

    The law on this issue was settled 50 years ago. These people have been willfully ignoring it for that amount of time. It’s time to drag them into the 21st Century or to sue them into oblivion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abington_School_District_v._Schempp

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/ Kevin_Of_Bangor

    This is their mission statement: http://www.edline.net/pages/Muldrow_High_School

    Our Mission: We strive to educate student and to assist them in realizing their full potential as responsible, productive, contributing members of society by providing an educational environment in which students are challenged.

    I would say Gage is doing all the above and the school should be proud of him, not against him.

  • David McNerney

    “If other kids don’t want to read the Ten Commandments, then they don’t have to…”

    So there would be no objection to another student sticking up the latest Playboy centrefold, or a photo of a gay couple in a passionate embrace – after all, anyone who doesn’t want to look at it doesn’t have to.

    • articulett

      Christians might see the value of separation between church and state if non-theist teachers started putting up inspirational quotes like this one from Lawrence Krauss:

      “You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded. Because the elements,
      the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for
      evolution weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in
      the nuclear furnaces of stars. And the only way they could get into
      your body is if the stars were kind enough to explode.

      So forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today.”

      Christians often forget that freedom of speech and freedom regarding religious sentiments are not just for those that agree with them. They need to dollow the same laws as everyone else and stop asking for privileges they would not want those with conflicting views to have.

      • DeeMill

        They already teach the lies of evolution in schools and refuse to let creationism be taught.

        • Greyson

          as a christian i believe evolution exists. if God didnt want it to happen, it wouldnt.

          • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

            Most Christians worldwide understand the evidence for evolution. It’s mostly in America, and some Muslim nations, that people hand onto literal interpretations of the bible and refuse some aspects of evident reality.

          • DeeMill

            I believe evolution is just a theory and has never been proven. If it were true, we would still be evolving. Why do we not see apes evolving into humans today? Did it just stop one day? I believe Yahweh’s Word is true and that He created man and the universe. At the same time, if evolution did exist, Yahweh would have been the author of it because nothing would be able to evolve of itself. “Something” had to come from “Someone”

            • Greyson

              but the thing is it takes millions of years for evolution to take place

              • DeeMill

                That’s just crazy.

                • RobMcCune

                  I’m sure you believe big numbers are just a theory too.

                • ShoeUnited

                  Rice fields are just a theory. I’ve never seen one myself. People claim that they exist. They show me “proof” like Uncle Ben’s, Chinese field workers, rice paddies, and bags of rice in the grocery store. But that’s all clearly a ruse by liberal atheist scientists working for Satan to get people to stop believing in God. Everyone knows that rice is really just God scratching dandruff into sacks and transporting them from Heaven on magic golden sleds made of angels. You’d have to be blind to the Truth to think otherwise.

                • http://www.facebook.com/caro.rojas.a Carolina Rojas Acevedo

                  LOL!!!!!!!

                • Leiningen’s Ants

                  E=mc^2? What is this, a new alphabet?

                  Hey kiddos;

                  x=1/2(one half of) y
                  y – 2 = 4

                  Solve for x AND y

                • NipGrip

                  No, Dee, that’s actually how things work. That book of tales from simple sheepherders thousands of years ago is just that. Tales. It’s sad you’ve lived your full life, the one life you have under this incorrect, ignorant, and just way too small and closed minded belief system. You’ve been brainwashed by your parents and preachers for control and money. That’s it. I was a Christian for over 20 years before I started questioning what I was being forced to believe. You had no choice when you were a child and you know it and if you have children, you gave them zero choice either I would wager.

                  Others are discussing science and intelligence that doesn’t simply rely on “faith”, open-mindedness, any and all options are on the table for possibilities and you and your kind refuse to venture into that scary, frightening place that has no snuggle blanket. It’s a scary place, you’ve got to think for yourself and not just blindly believe and continue on forcing others to believe these tales from simple sheepherders.

                  Keep that faith up there, Dee. I wish you the best and hey maybe you’ll do better next time around on your path to enlightenment.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  Please go learn about radiometric dating and count the uranium and lead atoms in a large number of rocks. You will see how old they all are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating

                  @Greyson: Evolution happens continuously, but it does take many generations for large changes to be fixed into a population. That’s why it’s been 5 million years since our ancestors split off from those of the rest of the chimps.

                • DeeMill

                  Wow! That is so much harder for me to believe than believing in a Creator and sounds like all the other man-made excuses for rejecting the truth. I don’t know about you, but my ancestors were not chimps. And whoever you’re listening to – I would suggest you think for yourself.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  @DeeMill: Go back more than a few thousand years and your ancestors and my ancestors were the same set of people. And go back 5 million years and they were the same set of animals that also led to the chimps. This is a matter of fact, and is entirely independent of if you believe it or not. Your disbelieving it merely illustrates your lack of knowledge. The evidence is summarized in the Wikipedia articles I linked earlier. Please read them.

                  I have thought about evolutionary biology, at significant length. And there is no taking other people’s word for it in science – we are constantly trying to prove each other wrong and that which has no evidence for it is discarded. There is a huge body of evidence of evolution, and evolutionary experiments are very easy to do. I did one myself, by accident, when I was 9 years old. I didn’t take the full course of antibiotics for an infection (my mother didn’t catch on to my palming the pills), and a few days later I had a resistant resurgent infection. Fortunately the second round of oral antibiotics were sufficient or I would have been stabbed in the butt with a high-dose IM injection. Since there is such abundant evidence available for evolution, your denying it illustrates nearly willful ignorance.

                • allein

                  You’re here spouting all the usual creationist talking points and we’re the ones who need to think for ourselves?

                • RobertoTheChi

                  You’re just crazy.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  Watch the language. “Crazy” has an association with mental illness, which has nothing to do with the nonsense DeeMill has been spreading. DeeMill is simply wrong and willfully ignorant. That does not equate to crazy.

                • RobertoTheChi

                  Please do not scold me like a puppy that pissed on the carpet. How about I change “you are crazy” to “you are an asshole” for my reply to dee? Is that acceptable for you?

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  Yes, since that is not a slur against any group in particular.

            • http://www.facebook.com/caro.rojas.a Carolina Rojas Acevedo

              Nice strawman of evolution there!!!!

              • DeeMill

                I can read the Word of Yahweh and make better sense of the world than any other book that’s out there. When someone who doesn’t know how to study the Bible starts saying things like ‘it contradicts itself’ – it is because they have no desire to know the truth and the truth is not in them. They reject truth and mistake man’s knowledge for wisdom. The knowledge of man is as foolishness to Yahweh. There is more to the eye than what we can see. We know that air or wind exists even though we can’t see it because of its’ effects. We know that feelings exist even though we can’t see them. We have faith in the smallest of things, without proof, but still some can’t believe and have faith in the Creator.

                • http://www.facebook.com/caro.rojas.a Carolina Rojas Acevedo

                  I’ve never said any of those things…
                  I could argue with you, but it would be a waste of my time.
                  Keep living in your fantasy world, It’s your right; but don’t try to impose it on anyone else, that’s the whole point of this controversy.

                • DeeMill

                  It’s a waste of both of our time. I won’t impose anything on you. You can either believe or not, the choice is yours. I just tell it like it is. Whether you accept God or reject Him is on you. I did what I am suppose to do and that is to inform you. Do with it what you will, but you can’t say you weren’t told.

                • http://www.facebook.com/caro.rojas.a Carolina Rojas Acevedo

                  Been informed before, don’t need that. I’m perfectly happy without god…
                  This is an atheist forum, so don’t expect a sudden conversion from anyone just because you came here to preach.
                  Christianity makes no sense at all and a big part of us, were religious at some point of our lives…
                  Thanks for suggesting that all of us are going to hell, we’ve never heard that before (sarcasm off).

                • Leiningen’s Ants

                  You wouldn’t know how it is if how it is spat in your face, choked-slammed you into the x-ray table and grabbed a scalpel.

                • SDM

                  Translation: “You just wait until my daddy comes home, then you’ll be sorry! He’s going to beat you up for not agreeing with me!”

                • DeeMill

                  You’re so funny!! :)

                • ShoeUnited

                  Actually. Everything you described to counter point can be measured. I can measure the wind, I can measure emotions, I can measure validity of claims, I can measure all sorts of things about the air.

                  There’s a difference between Belief (capitals denote religious) and belief (lower case denotes secular). Faith is based on believing something without evidence. Without Evidence. Let that sink in. Like believing that Jesus got upset that a fig tree wouldn’t bear fruit out of season and thus cursed it and killed it. That’s Faith.

                  The second ‘belief’ is an affirmation that past events will repeat themselves. Yesterday and all the yesterdays before you’ve seen the Sun rise. You believe (lower case) that it will rise tomorrow; because you’ve come to expect that certain interactions will occur. That’s belief.

                  You can’t have evidence of God doing things, then that’s no longer Faith. Faith is belief without evidence.

                  When you start arguing that you’ve got proof of God, then you no longer have Faith. Now you claim to have evidence. And evidence can be tested. If your evidence doesn’t support your claim, or if it doesn’t even actually exist, then your claim is false.

                  Be more mindful of the words you use when trying to twist things to support your side.

                • DeeMill

                  You can’t prove that He doesn’t exist. I know that He does. So, you can’t take away my faith in His existence and you won’t intimidate me with your philosophy. You go to school to learn things that you will never need in life. You only learn how to debate and all you care about is being right, You are not interested in truth.

                • http://www.facebook.com/caro.rojas.a Carolina Rojas Acevedo

                  Since you can’t prove he exists, that’s enough to dissmiss your claim. You have the burden of proof and not the atheists.

                • DeeMill

                  I don’t have to prove anything because I already know He exists. I know Him personally. He knows He exists and He doesn’t believe in atheists. So, you are the one who can’t prove anything. I feel sorry for you because you don’t even realize that what you say or do has consequences, in this world and eternity. So, I will keep praying for you. You have an empty heart and an empty life without Him.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  I don’t have to prove anything because I already know He exists

                  You must prove your claims of you want anyone to believe you. Saying “I know God” or “I feel God” by itself is meaningless.

                  He doesn’t believe in atheists.

                  Your god doesn’t believe that hundreds of millions of humans who exist actually exist? He must have remarkably poor senses.

                • DeeMill

                  I know Him personally. But, you don’t because you choose not to. It’s your choice and totally in your hands. If you ever want to truly know the truth or know Him, just ask Him with a sincere heart, and He’ll prove to you He’s there.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  You go to school to learn things that you will never need in life.

                  Incorrect. You went to nursing school, right? I studied physics and astronomy so that I could learn about the universe. My brother studied math, languages, and law so that he could understand legalese in many different parts of the world. The general education in primary and secondary schooling is set up to give basic knowledge of as many subjects as possible, so that people are not artificially limited in what they can do.

                • SDM

                  It’s your job to prove that he does, hon. That’s called science. Your claim. Your case to make.

                  Good luck.

                • DeeMill

                  Science is not all there is to knowledge, my dear. And I don’t have to prove anything. I already know He exists. You don’t want to know, so no more debate.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  I already know He exists. You don’t want to know, so no more debate.

                  Wrong. Everyone here would want to know if there was sufficient evidence to believe in any sort of deity. But your saying “I know God exists” and providing no answer to “how do you know God exists?” is not such evidence.

                • Leiningen’s Ants

                  I’m beginning to believe you aren’t a paid semi-professional in the medical field. That or you just did a lot of over-shoulder test copying. I break the fourth wall when I ask the rest of you; would you be worried locked in an ambulance with this religiously crazy psycho nursebitch? THEEE FUUUCK NOOOO~

                • lex

                  wouldn’t being right and speaking the truth be the same?
                  I mean, the truth is right…

                • Leiningen’s Ants

                  except for the honest lies. C’mon, you know how the grown-up game works.

                • DeeMill

                  The point is, since I need to explain, if you are only interested in being right, it won’t matter to you if what you are saying is the truth or not. You will twist words to make it sound as though something is right when it obviously isn’t. Just like ‘feelings’ are ‘real’, but ‘feelings’ are not always ‘right’.

                • lex

                  Your side, the religious one, is the one using feelings. Because you feel that a god must be real. But your feelings may not be right.

                • Atticus Dogsbody

                  If you know he exists where does your faith come from? You can’t even get your theology right, DeeMill.

                • DeeMill

                  My faith comes from Yahweh. The proof was the change in my life and in my heart. Because of Him, I was able to see and understand things I never could before. He gave me the desire to seek Him and His wisdom, not man’s. Man will always be fallible and will always let us down. Yahweh has never let me down. Has He always given me what I’ve asked for? No. But, sometimes His answer IS ‘no’, for our own good and it’s evident that it was so, later on. Many are called and few are chosen, so maybe you aren’t one of those. If you can’t look beyond science to see a masterful Creator, then you have little depth of what life is about.

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  Funny, that’s almost exactly the explanation I’ve been given for how people know that Mohamed and Joseph Smith are the last true prophets.

                • Atticus Dogsbody

                  Little depth is the correct term when talking of magic sky fairies.

                  P.S. You still don’t understand faith.

                • allein

                  Many are called and few are chosen, so maybe you aren’t one of those.

                  So you’re saying we may simply not be one of the called, or one of the chosen, but still it’s our fault if we don’t believe because we didn’t seek hard enough.

                • DeeMill

                  Oh, I am definitely one of the called and chosen, because I don’t reject the Creator of the universe and all things or His Son. God knows your heart and what your inner most thoughts are, so maybe you aren’t chosen, but, it doesn’t mean you couldn’t change your mind. He’s not going to reject anyone who truly wants to know Him and love Him.

                • Nengl Brackenini

                  I would really like to explain to you how advanced intellect isn’t the end goal of evolution which is why we don’t see other members of the great ape family evolving into humans or anything human-like. Advanced intellect was a survival strategy of our ancestors that by enabling greater rates of survival in offspring that had it became a naturally selected trait over time..

                  Oh forget it! Factual information is foolishness to some one determined to remain ignorant err I mean your magic sky wizard and the funky bunch. Yep we were created out of clay and god made light BEFORE the sun LOL. The Bible certainly is a great source of “wisdom.” If by wisdom you mean the nonsensical ramblings of primitive, illiterate, smelly, misogynistic, violent, genocidal arabs from the bronze age. It is full of that indeed! (And it’s full of something else which good taste forbids me from saying)

                • DeeMill

                  Wow! I must have hit a nerve. Your intellect doesn’t impress me and you really aren’t as smart as you think. Check out where your teachers come from in your fancy colleges. They are old hippies and ‘free love’ thinkers, who went to school to become professors and teach their opinions and spread lies to people like you who are so gullible to believe in something just because they have a PhD. Your wisdom is nonsense, anti-messiah.

                • Leiningen’s Ants

                  Yes, your stupidity and lazy intellect feels like a root canal with no anesthesia. Congrats.

                • SDM

                  Clearly it’s been a very long time since you were ever in a school of any kind.

                • E. Cedric

                  Wow, yes, of course darling, ignorance instead of education is something to cherish and hold as the gold standard.

                  You are a frightening little piece of uneducated nonsense.

                  My money is ALWAYS on education and peer reviewed research and science. I prefer my head out of my ass thank you very much.

                • Antinomian

                  Dee, may I remind you that arguments in the style that you are presenting must end in “NeenerNeener” or you can’t win the prize.

                • Leiningen’s Ants

                  (And it’s full of something else which good taste forbids me from saying)
                  But tell us what you really think.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  When someone who doesn’t know how to study the Bible starts saying things like ‘it contradicts itself’

                  All of the various Bibles do contradict themselves (a partial list: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html). When you say you “know how to study the Bible”, what you’re actually saying is that you have additional information that you use to resolve the contradictions. But then why invoke the Bible at all?

                  And ShoeUnited already explained the problems with the rest of what you wrote.

                • Leiningen’s Ants

                  And that’s why everyone whispers behind your back “she’s just another voodoo faith healer, of course we aren’t promoting her further; how’d she get this far?”

            • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

              Oh my. That many common fallacies in one place? This has to be a Poe, right?

              • http://www.facebook.com/caro.rojas.a Carolina Rojas Acevedo

                Seriously…

            • http://www.facebook.com/kyler.phoenix Kyler Phoenix

              You don’t understand the subject you are posting on. Do some research. How sad.

            • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

              If it were true, we would still be evolving.

              Ever wonder why some people are lactose intolerant?

              • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/ Kevin_Of_Bangor

                Cause they like to fart?

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  Watch it, or I’ll send you my keyboard to clean.

            • RobMcCune

              If it were true, we would still be evolving.

              we are.

              • DeeMill

                Prove it. You can’t. We’re not.

                • RobMcCune

                  There are about 60 new mutations per person per generation, proved.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  You are wrong. We are evolving now, just like we always have been.

                  Lactose tolerance. Sickle cell trait. Skin color variations. Differences in relative immunity to diseases. And all of things here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

                • DeeMill

                  You are so full of it. We brought all that stuff on ourselves, experimenting with drugs and things they put in our processed foods. You don’t even know what you’re eating half the time or what they put in it. Man causes diseases like cancer and others. You need to wake up. We are not evolving, we are dying! The minute we’re born we start dying. Some faster than others.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  You are wrong. Lactose tolerance has been strongly favored in many human populations for the last 5000-10000 years, because it gives access to a big source of calories once dairy animals are available. That has nothing to do with drugs or processed foods, which are very recent innovations. Here’s the actual history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_tolerance

                  Sickle cell trait has a similarly long history, as do the other examples I gave.

                  You don’t even know what you’re eating half the time or what they put in it.

                  Actually, I do know what I’m eating all the time. Consequence of having gluten intolerance. But that’s not relevant.

                  Man causes diseases like cancer and others.

                  Many diseases are caused by things humans do. But many others are entirely natural. e.g. some viruses cause cancers. UV from sunlight causes melanoma. And on and on.

                  We are not evolving, we are dying!

                  Those two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, evolution of a population requires death of individuals – that’s one of the main ways that the distribution of genotypes changes with time.

                • DeeMill

                  If UV from sunlight causes melanoma, then why do thousands of Africans or other people even here in the U.S. not develop it? Why don’t we all have it? Lots of people are in sunlight for many hours at a time and still don’t get melanoma.

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  Well, the color of one’s skin appears to have something to do with it. Which begs the question, if Adam and Even didn’t get melanoma, what color was their skin? And how did we get all these other shades if we’re not evolving?

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  I break my no-reply rule because what you have just written is unethical for anyone in any medical profession to say. You should be ashamed of yourself.

                  We don’t all get melanoma because it is a statistical process. More UV -> more scrambling of chemicals in skin cells -> more risk of genetic mutations that can eventually cause melanoma. The risk varies from person to person because of genetic factors. Eumelanin in skin cells is an effective UV absorber and protects the other chemicals in skin cells from radiation damage, so rates of melanoma in populations with high eumelanin levels can be as low as 10% of those in population with low eumelanin concentration. But the rates are not zero, and it is important to recognize that, and to encourage even people with dark skin to use sunblock and avoid excessive tanning.

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  I was just going to point out the Vitamin D part. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color

                  But it is related, in that it shows competing selections on skin color. It’s an advantage to have dark skin in areas of high UV, but it’s an advantage to have light skin to process more Vitamin D. In areas of high UV, the advantage of dark skin outweighs the advantage of light skin. Which is why we don’t all have the same color skin.

                  Not unlike your earlier sickle cell example.

                • Leiningen’s Ants
                • SDM

                  Easily done.

                  Are you a clone of your parents? No? Then you have evolved…very, very slightly.

                • Leiningen’s Ants

                  BURN THE MUTANT!! *ahem~*

                • Antinomian

                  Thank you DeeMill. I never thought de-evolotion possible until you posted. I learn something new every day.

            • *sigh*

              Your ignorance is absolutely adorable. And I mean that in the most condescending way possible. Please continue to argue about things you know nothing about, and give the rest of us a good laugh while you’re at it.

              • DeeMill

                You may laugh at me now, but I know who wins in the end. So, I feel sorry for you if anything. You reject the truth because you are of your father the devil, the father of lies.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  There is no devil. There is no god. And if you think that there is really such a powerful devil, you aren’t actually a monotheist – you’re advocating dualist duotheism instead.

                • Leiningen’s Ants

                  You are going to have such a disappointing deathbed experience.

                • allein

                  Really? Eugene isn’t my real dad?! My mom lied to me?!?!

                • DavidMHart

                  You do realise, I hope, how utterly unconvincing your threats sound to someone who hasn’t already been indoctrinated into believing the same myths that you believe?

                  And just how intellectually weak it makes your position sound, when you are saying, in effect, I can’t rationally defend my position, but you’ll be punished for not believing me?

                  Let me illustrate. What will you say to Allah when he sends you to burn forever in Jahannam (Muslim Hell) because you didn’t recognise the divinity of the Koran and were mislead by Shaytan (Satan) into thinking that Christianity is true?

                  If you don’t find those threats persuasive, stop for a moment to figure out exactly why you don’t find them persuasive, and you will automatically understand why we don’t find your threats of Christian Hell any more plausible than we or you find the Muslim threats of Jahannam.

                • RobertoTheChi

                  You are a simpleton. It’s frightening that you’re a nurse! I wouldn’t want you within 100 feet of me if I was a patient.

            • allein

              And I believe you don’t know what the word theory means.

              • Leiningen’s Ants

                Don’t have to believe it if it’s a fact.

            • http://www.facebook.com/stevemillerinaz Stephen Miller

              Gravity is just a theory. Go step off the 3rd floor of a building and see what happens.

              • Leiningen’s Ants

                Germs are just a theory, there’s plenty of good food in a dumpster!~

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  One would hope that a nurse would have a good understanding of why nobody uses penicillin anymore.

              • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                To be fair, gravity is both a theory and a law. The law of gravity states how quickly you will accelerate towards the earth if you stop off a 3rd floor building. The theory of gravity describes why you’ll fall.

                I personally use atomic theory. Protons, neutrons, electrons- all theory.

            • Leiningen’s Ants

              LAYYYY MAAAAN! LAAAAME MAAAN!
              What’s it like, only being smart enough to dig ditches and shovel shit? :D I am legit-like curious!

              • DeeMill

                You wish. I’ve been a nurse for 25 years, so I know a lot about s—, when I see and hear it. At least I’m not an educated idiot. You wouldn’t know true wisdom if it hit you between the eyes. You have empty wisdom and words.

                • Leiningen’s Ants

                  D:< DO NOT YOU FUCKING DARE PRAY OVER MY DYING BODY.

                  “DOC!”
                  “*shuffle* Yes?”
                  “THIS DUMB NURSE THINKS HER RELIGION TRUMPS THE HYPOCRATIC OATH, AND SHE IS CAUSING THE BOTH OF US MENTAL HARM! Shut her up or I will quote to her the part of the Bible that explicitly states: ‘Bitch, shut up.’”

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  I am disappointed that your nursing education apparently did not include discussions of evolutionary biology, since that knowledge is essential to understand the appearance of drug-resistant bacteria and why flu vaccines have to be updated every season. And the nurses I know who were trained in the 1970s and 1980s learned evolutionary biology well.

                • DeeMill

                  Well maybe I had smarter teachers. And I know who made me and put all things together to function the way it’s supposed to. That doesn’t take a PhD to understand.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  Well maybe I had smarter teachers.

                  I cannot comment on the intelligence of your teachers. But their curriculum was sorely lacking.

                  And I know who made me

                  That would be your parents, and by extension the last 3.8 billion years of evolution, combined with a long list of random events and influenced by the environment and society around them and around you over your life so far.

                  put all things together to function the way it’s supposed to.

                  That’s an incredibly bad argument. Am I “supposed to” have lenses that don’t focus well? Are my intestines “supposed to” start eating themselves when exposed to gluten? Was my cousin “supposed” to have been born with a genetic autoimmune disorder? Was my friend “supposed to” have been born with a mitral valve defect that necessitated surgery a few months after he was born?

                  None of those were due to any god, but simply entirely mundane peculiarities of developmental biology influenced by an evolutionary history that is in large part determined by random events combined with relatively weak selective pressure in the last few thousand years.

                  That doesn’t take a PhD to understand

                  It doesn’t take a PhD to understand the basics of evolutionary biology. So go learn them. I gave you the links already.

                  Edit: And I think your derailment of the discussion of Mr. Pulliam’s very intelligent actions has gone quite long enough, so I will not reply to you further.

                • SDM

                  At least we agree that you aren’t educated.

                  Once again the faithful demonstrate that ignorance is their cardinal virtue.

                • lex

                  As a nurse you should be educated, so the fact that you say you are not educated is a bit scary for any of the patients you tend to. And as a nurse you should have been taught or at least cared enough to learn on your own how the treatments you are supplying and implementing work and how they were created. You should be able to explain to patients why they can’t stop taking antibacterial medicines before they run out. You should understand that all of modern medicine is based on the principles of evolution.
                  This is the reason we can test on mice and other mammals and extrapolate to cures that will work on humans. This is why bacteria build up a tolerance for antibacterial soaps and medicines if you don’t use up all the meds or don’t wash your hands for long enough.
                  As a nurse you should know better.
                  Shame

                • Leiningen’s Ants

                  Shame indeed. I know this is going to sound very awful to some people and I’m sorry, but DeeMill needs to be out of a job, stat.

                • DeeMill

                  There’s a big difference in ‘modern medicines’ being based on the principles of evolution and human beings being evolutionized or whatever. Our bodies are not changing (unless we have some deformity) and growing more limbs or another head or two brains, etc. Medicines are man-made. Human beings are made by God. Big difference.

                • lex

                  You do know that modern medicines wouldn’t work if the principles of evolution are not true…
                  Also, evolution does not mean new heads growing or any other such nonsense. Please educate yourself and while you’re educating yourself please don’t tell any patients anything about how medicines work or how diseases come about because you clearly don’t know yourself

                • E. Cedric

                  You should not be anywhere near patients let alone anything associated with erudition and science (i.e. EVERYTHING IN A HOSPITAL)

                  Chick, you frightening!

                • DeeMill

                  I’ll have you know I take care of my patients and they love me. I am well educated in my 25 years of nursing and know by experience that Prayer works at times when medicine and doctors and nurses can’t do anything else for a patient. You are frightening and I pray that you aren’t in the medical field, because there is no compassion in your heart for the sick and dying. I can be there with a patient and hold their hand while they are in their last moments of life, to give them comfort and I am there when they get well and go home. Life is also spiritual – not just physical.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  Prayer works at times when medicine and doctors and nurses can’t do anything else for a patient.

                  The studies have been done repeatedly. Prayer only has an effect when the patient knows they are being prayed for. It may produce real outcomes, but the effect is all in the patients’ heads. See also confirmation bias: you remember when you prayed for someone and they got well more than when you prayed for someone and they died.

                  You are frightening and I pray that you aren’t in the medical field, because there is no compassion in your heart for the sick and dying.

                  You are wrong to conclude that from what E. Cedric said. To the contrary: compassion for the sick and dying includes wanting the people caring for them to accurately understand biology.

                  Life is also spiritual – not just physical

                  You have not provided any evidence to support that assertion, and all prior assertions of such that have been tested have been proven wrong.

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  Prayer only has an effect when the patient knows they are being prayed for.

                  To make mattes worse, in the one decent study out there, the patients who knew they were being prayed for did worse (hypothesis being that it was due to the stress of wanting to live up to the prayer)

                  DeeMill, I only hope that when you’re holding the hand of a dying non-Christian, you aren’t trying to convert them. Pray if you must, but don’t stress them with it. If you were dying, and wanted me to say a prayer for you, I would.

                • E. Cedric

                  You have no right to pray over anyone in the hospital. You are a vile and confused little thing. And that education you claim, it never stuck.

            • Matthew Welch

              Learn what the word “theory” means in scientific terms FFS.

              • http://www.facebook.com/caro.rojas.a Carolina Rojas Acevedo

                Impossible, Dee refuses to listen well thought arguments.
                She is not chaniging her mind, kind of sad to see somebody that close minded

            • Willy Occam

              Holy shit… you’re a nurse? My jaw is on the ground from all of your ignorant posts. They really need to tighten the requirements on those nursing licenses in your state (and let me guess… you practice nursing somewhere in the South, right?).

            • DavidMHart

              Do you understand the fact that a single human lifespan is an immeasurably short timespan by comparison with the vast geological aeons over which evolution by natural selection plays out?

              The reason we do not see apes evolving into humans today is because the apes that evolved into humans have already done so. The other apes that were around at the same time have not evolved into humans, they have evolved into other apes, like chimps, bonobos and gorillas. Species don’t follow the same trajectory as if it were a pre-destined path – they evolve in response to selection pressure in their environments, and they diversify into more new species than you started with (and also go extinct – which is why we are the only species of human around today – all the other hominids have died out).

              There is no reason to presuppose that we humans won’t continue to evolve. It took some five or six million years for our common ancestor with chimps to diversify into a) chimps and b) us (look up ‘molecular clock’ for how we can estimate the time of speciation events). Give it another 5 or 6 million years and our descendents may well be as different from us as we are from chimps.

            • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

              Oh for fuck’s sake

              Evolution is a theory. Gravity is a theory. The germ theory of disease is a theory. Scientific theory is much, much different than the layman’s use of the term; a hypothesis would be an unproven (but testable) guess about the world. A theory ties together a huge number of (experimentally verified) facts into a coherent whole that is then tested over and over again before gaining acceptance by the scientific community.

              We are still evolving. The ability to digest cow’s milk is relatively recent; it’s most common in people of African and European descent, because those peoples were dependent on cattle for protein, but very uncommon in Asians and Native Americans. Europeans and Africans developed different genetic mutations to be able to digest lactose, but both populations developed one. That is a perfect example of evolution within humans. Another example is sickle cell; one copy of the gene (from one parent) gives some protection from malaria, but two copies creates sickle cell anemia and can kill. Some Africans developed the sickle cell mutation in response to the endemic malarial conditions, and it saved more people than it killed, so it still exists within humanity. Evolution is change over time to adapt to environmental conditions; cattle and malaria are only two of the environmental conditions to which humans have adapted.

              As for why apes aren’t developing into humans still: humans and great apes share a common ancestor. Different populations of that ancestor developed into different species. You might as well ask why tigers aren’t evolving into lions. They shared a common feline ancestral population that split into different species in the past. We don’t know what the current great apes are evolving into, any more than we know what homo sapiens are evolving into, but we’re all continually evolving and changing over time.

              • DeeMill

                Yep, we get older, then we die. What a farce you have been taught. And you talk about people like me who believe in fairy tales. Let’s wait and see, shall we?

                • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

                  Undeserved condescension, check. Barely veiled threats of eternal torture, check. Inability to respond to basic facts with counter-evidence or counter-arguments, check. Inference to arguments I never actually made, check.

                  I do believe you are a fundamentalist, DeeMill. That’s not a compliment.

          • Leiningen’s Ants

            Ahhhh, Greyson my main man, they tricked you into thinking you have to BELIEVE in the results of scientific inquiry for the results to be true~!

            Greyson, thank goodness for champions like you; doing your part as caped-crusader~<3

        • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

          If they did teach creationism, do you think they should teach all creationisms, or just your creationism? You know there are numerous versions of ‘creationism’.

          • DeeMill

            Honestly, I don’t think schools should be teaching our children anything but math, english, spelling, grammar, science and history. No religion should be taught. That should be left to the parents. But, we should go back to
            ‘community funded’ schools, and leave the government out of them.

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

              How is “community funded” not equal to the current system? That’s what taxes are. We have academic standards to make sure the schools aren’t artificially limiting what people learn.

            • http://twitter.com/JafafaHots Jafafa Hots

              Guess what – government is HOW WE HAVE “COMMUNITY-FUNDED SCHOOLS.” Sorry for shouting, but something so clear having escaped you, I assume it needs to be said more forcefully.

              Government is how “community funded” is done.

              Also, if you don’t want schools to teach art, music, etc., then you’re going to raise a generation of well-squared individuals.

              • DeeMill

                No, before the government started giving money to schools, communities raised their own money to fund them from the people who lived in those communities. When government started giving hand-outs to schools, we signed our rights away. I have a nephew that graduated in my small hometown, who never went to college, doesn’t have a degree in anything and works for a well to do company, making 300 thousand a year, so don’t tell me you need college or higher education to get where you want to be. It just takes hard work.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  communities raised their own money to fund them from the people who
                  lived in those communities.

                  Which is exactly what we have now. The communities concerned are merely often larger.

                  So don’t tell me you need college or higher education to get where you want to be. It just takes hard work.

                  That is true, but only for some occupations. For others, higher ed is a requirement. Nursing school, remember? Medical school. Law school. Teaching. Doing professional scientific research. And on and on. And that’s why academic standards and generalized primary and secondary education are required: so that people aren’t artificially limited in what they can do.

                • http://twitter.com/JafafaHots Jafafa Hots

                  Before the government started public education, “community education” was known as work. Child labor.

                  You worked on your family farm from toddlerhood until your father dropped dead and you took over, or you worked on a neighboring farm for room and board.

                  Or you were “apprenticed” as a child to a skilled worker where you worked for your room and board until hopefully you learned enough to perform that job for yourself or for a wage.

                  Life before public schools was pretty horrible for kids.
                  If you want to go back to that you have some strange ideas.

                • DeeMill

                  At least back then, they had integrity and earned a living with hard work. Unlike today, when so many get a hand-out from the government and those who think the world owes them something. The Bible says, “If a man doesn’t work, he doesn’t eat.” That’s the way it should be, unless you are physically or mentally unable. I don’t see anything wrong with kids learning how to be independent instead of staying dependent on their parents the rest of their lives. It’s called ‘life’. Grow up.

                • http://twitter.com/JafafaHots Jafafa Hots

                  Growing up was something far fewer children managed to do back in the glorious days you want to take us back to.

                  The bible? Who cares what it says?

                  The bible is a book with a little good advice that we would know without the bible, but which due to being in the bible is applied dogmatically instead of contextually so that it becomes less than useful, even harmful – such as when some know-nothing uses it as an excuse to not educate our nation’s children…

                  Along with those few words of pretty obvious wisdom, there is barbarism, obscene and hateful commands to commit every imaginable atrocity, and a load of laughably ridiculous nonsense.

                  The bible is like a “have you hugged your child today?” bumpersticker pasted to the back of an M1 Abrams tank that is actively firing into a small village.

                • DeeMill

                  God bless you and good bye.

            • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

              Um, evolution is science. I’m glad you agree that science but not religion should be taught in schools, though.

        • Charles Honeycutt

          It’s very sad that you’re completely ignorant of the millions of data points of evidence for Evolutionary Theory, yet arrogant enough to talk anyway. Please keep your book of magic spells to yourself.

          Likewise as regards the First Amendment.

          • DeeMill

            It’s indeed sad that you don’t have more of an open heart to see the evidence of Yahweh in life itself.

            • Leiningen’s Ants

              Cry more. Your tears are delicious.

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

              It happens that in the US at the present time, irreligious people test out as both more open-minded and more knowledgeable about religion in general than religious people. This is because many of the irreligious people started out religious, and considered their own religion and others and found them all to be provably false.

          • Nengl Brackenini

            You know what’s funny about evolution denying Christians? Even ancient Christians would be ashamed of them!

            “Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics (science); and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. ”

            - Saint Augustine (354-430 C.E.) The Literal Meaning of Genesis

            • http://twitter.com/CrazyWriter68 SqueakyTiki

              Love the Saint Augustine quote, Nengl. Thanks for posting that.

        • Earl G.

          They do teach creationism in school. There are hundreds of creation stories from different religions, and these are taught in religion class.

          • DeeMill

            They don’t have a ‘religion’ class in grade school. Or do they? If so, they don’t need to teach any of them. I believe it would be best for schools not to teach ‘any’ religion as opposed to teaching them ‘all’. That’s partly what’s wrong with us today. Parents should be responsible for teaching and raising their children in the way they choose, not schools. We should have more community-based schools, like we used to have, so that the government can’t tell them what they can or cannot teach. The problem now is, federal funding means ‘federal brainwashing’ – leading the next generations to be dependent on a socialist government for all their education and needs instead of thinking and working for themselves.

          • DeeMill

            I don’t know of any grade school or high school that teaches creationism.

            • Leiningen’s Ants

              I don’t know of any grade school or high school that teaches creationism.

              Yes, we know you don’t know how to Google. *head pat pat*

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

          Evolution happens. There are no lies in teaching about it. Creationism, on the other hand, is nonsense. Now please go away and actually learn science. You can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

        • Matthew Welch

          And you are why we need less Ten Commandments and more science in school. Willfully brainwashed to believe science is a lie, all because you believe in a book of fairytales.

          • DeeMill

            I’d rather believe in God and His Word than in someone who is so narrow minded they can’t see the sunshine from where their head is. I never said all science is a lie. I’m just saying that however things are put together, Yahweh is the author and the finisher of it.

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

              I’m just saying that however things are put together, Yahweh is the author and the finisher of it.

              Then you should have no problem with the demonstrated facts of evolution and the history of life on Earth, and simply say “God started the universe”.

              • DeeMill

                But, I don’t believe that man was evolved. I believe Adam, the first man, was created by Yahweh in His image, from the dust of the earth and Havah (Eve) was created from one of Adam’s ribs. And that the breath of God gave them life. And He also created the animals and fish, the sea, waters, heavens, etc and that Adam named the animals.

        • RobertoTheChi

          And what are the lies of evolution???

        • Thumper1990

          You think evolution is a lie and creationism is true?
          *chortle*

  • Greyson

    Let me say this. I pride myself on being accepting of everyone based on religious beliefs, sexual orientation, and any difference never the less. Let me find out who harassed Gage’s sister and they will hear from me on wht it means to be morally correct and by not using your religion as an excuse to act up to someone. I am a Christian and I understand who I’m talking to by posting on here but I have no means of starting trouble and I hope the same for you all. I go to MHS I am a friend of Gage’s, not a close one, but a friend regardless. I will take it upon myself to ensure he is ok and that nobody hurts him. My name is Greyson Gann, Muldrow High School Senior and proud Christian.

    • WallofSleep

      Right on, Greyson. May others learn from your example.

    • http://www.everydayintheparkwithgeorge.com/ Matt Eggler

      Thank you, Grayson, for standing up for fairness and decency.

    • Willy Occam

      Greyson: I wish there were more Christians like you, who walk the walk and don’t just talk the talk. Thank you for living up to the tenets of your faith, and setting an example for others to follow.

    • http://profiles.google.com/robertbos Rob Bos

      Good luck. Stories like his often turn out poorly, and I hope there are more people looking out for him.

    • http://www.facebook.com/gagepulliam3 Gage Pulliam

      Thank you

      • Greyson

        hey bubba if you need me, text me at 9207470050

        you say it can turn out poorly but i have a lot of friends who feel the same way, its not just me, im just the only one who found this site.

        • Redact Your Info

          You might want to take your phone number down. This page is available for everyone to see.

      • Greyson

        who was messing with your sister?

        • http://www.facebook.com/gagepulliam3 Gage Pulliam

          It was just a bunch of middle schoolers on a bus. . .idk who

          • Greyson

            if you ask your sister and she knows. i promise i will deal with it.

            • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

              Just please ‘deal with it’ by standing up to bullying, not by bullying yourself.

              • Greyson

                im not one for bullying

                • Leiningen’s Ants

                  A simple stare-down and a few choice words, such as “leave him alone” should be sufficient for most. But please kids, don’t strike each other. Casey Haynes should not have had to bodyslam that bully.

      • E. Cedric

        Gage – you have my full support. Anything you need, if I can provide it, please contact me. I am in California, but I have no issue contacting your school, local law enforcement or any other such agency to ensure your safety as well as your sisters.

        You may email me for support if you need – to all others on this forum, I respectfully ask you to not contact me. There is a risk posting this here but it seems there is no other way.

        Gage – contact me if you need anything: ejcpromo AT yahoo DOT com

      • Sue Blue

        Gage – thank you for standing up for the constitution as well as your own principles. You give me hope for the next generation! We need more young leaders like you to stand up for reason and secular education. Please know that you have tons of support from the atheist community nationwide – indeed worldwide. Keep up the good work!

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Nick-Gorton/100000935484610 Nick Gorton

        Thanks for being brave and standing up for what’s right. And that was a classy move coming out to save your atheist friends.

        Clap. Clap. Clap. Clap.

      • P Bamma

        Hey, just read your story. Good work young man! It’s young folks like you that give me a good feeling about the future of our nation.

      • Steve

        Right on man! You kick ass!

    • http://www.facebook.com/cathy.paulino.9 Cathy Paulino

      That would be actually ACTING like a Christian, Greyson. Perhaps many in your school and town could learn from you. Please do ensure that Gage is ok, and see what you can do to get the “Christians” to back off of his little sister. I am not an atheist, but I am not a Christian either. The ignorance and the ugliness shown by many in your community is one of the reasons why I am not Christian. Not sure that Jesus would appreciate them representing him.

    • Baby_Raptor

      *slow clap* Did that take some effort? Did you get a rush off loudly proclaiming your beliefs in the light of all this persecution?

      Keep being proud of being part of a religion that worships a genocidal psychotic and does everything it can to ensure that nobody besides them can live happy, fulfilled lives. You’re already following in step perfectly.

      • Greyson

        i dont understand people like you? you just took a cheap shot. im proclaiming that not all Christians have this tarnished reputation as you are seeing us. All it is i am saying we are being as peaceful as we can. though the middle school incident happened, thats the middle school and i want to see it dealt with as severely as possible.

        • http://www.facebook.com/jonn.anderson Neo Anderson

          Greyson, i am a proud atheist, but you give christians a good name. Thank you for being understanding. Ignore Baby_Raptor, as you can plainly see, the nutters are on both sides of the fence.

        • ShoeUnited

          Trolls aren’t limited to any one group.

          As such, I can understand the sentiment of being worried that someone is supporting something when the something doesn’t do things that they like.

          But this guy said it in the wrong way, at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons.

          We could argue religion, but that isn’t why you’re here. And that’s not my job. Just shed this off and go about your day.

        • Drew M.

          As you can see, we have our share of jerks too. Keep fighting the good fight!

      • http://www.facebook.com/rodney.barnes.5688 Rodney Barnes

        Sod off Fan boy. He’s standing up to people like you who use beliefs, or in this case lack thereof, to proclaim their superiority. You just made his argument for him.

    • ShoeUnited

      Please be careful and don’t take the world on yourself. Report to the authorities or whatever else you people see going on. I just worry for people like you who have their heart in the right place, but could end up on the wrong side of a jail cell.

      I’m not in your kid’s area or muddle, but I know what it’s like to be in that situation. Just for your own sakes, please don’t go out seeking retribution. We’ve got laws in this country to deal with these issues and I’d hate to see anyone including yourself or Gage who’ve bravely stood up for what is right to be taken down a peg socially by the local Xian majority. “See? That’s what happens when… blah blah… godless…”

      I urge you to think with your head, not your heart. Nothing wrong defending someone AS the something happens. But there’s nothing you can do post hoc that won’t paint you as the monster both in public and in the court.

    • http://www.facebook.com/shetech Rebekkah Hilgraves

      And that, friends, is how a true Christian should act. Jesus’ message was about LOVE and RADICAL INCLUSION, not about bullying the people who didn’t believe the same way.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=713373577 Will Fowler

      You, sir, are a good man. And I can respect a good person, be they atheist or believer, regardless of how crazy I think the beliefs are. I value the content of someone’s character far more than their belief of the supernatural, or lack thereof.

    • Leiningen’s Ants

      100 likes GET! :D I’d totes be all like;

      But then all like;

    • http://www.facebook.com/janice.brouwer Janice Brouwer

      Thankyou Greyson! I’m an atheist…You are an example of how things “should” be…Please tell Gage and his sister that we’re all rooting for him. They are blessed to have you.

    • LoudGuitr

      You’re a good man, Greyson.

  • WallofSleep

    “It’s Christianity under attack within our own country,”

    No, it’s a defense of our founding principles in our constitution.

    “If other kids don’t want to read the Ten Commandments, then they don’t have to,”

    Wrong. If you want to read the ten commandments, open your friggin’ bible. But you have no right to use the force of gov’t to promote your religion in violation of the constitution.

    • Alice

      “If other kids don’t want to read the Ten Commandments, then they don’t have to,”

      They would change their tune real fast if the poster was promoting GBLT equality, quoting the Koran, or anything else that fundies hate.

      • Greyson

        but why promote hate when you can promote love? im not one for gushy stuff, but no tunes need to be changed.

        • Baby_Raptor

          Do you realize that people other than you, with views other than yours, exist? I mean, yes, in your posts you make noises towards such, but think about the question you asked.

          You just completely erased anybody that doesn’t share your view. Nothing needs changed, because you like the way things are now. And putting up things that you disagree with equals “hate,” even if others hold those views. All that matters is that you be content with what everyone is forced to see.

          • Greyson

            see the thing is i was once an atheist but i understood that the United States is predominately Christian. i understand the views of others thats why there is no force of religion being put on anyone. im not one to going to the bible in looking for politics. im one for doing what i believe is right, and if i can be swayed another direction then so be it. i used to think gay people were gross, like who would do such a thing. then i thought who am i to tell someone what they can and cant do. now im an active supporter of gay rights.

            • Leiningen’s Ants

              Pretty much sounds like you mentally walked a mile in other people’s shoes. Yeah, it’s like, gay sex, ew, in the butt? Meanwhile on the other side of the fence, ugh, OMFG, no I wouldn’t put my ten foot pole anywhere NEAR those beef flaps, only girls in drama club get to kiss me! Or OMFG that vieny throbbing gross junk?! YUCK!

              Also, how does one “once be” an atheist? I thought being an atheist was like riding a bike with the training wheels off; you never forget how, and so on.

              You’re a cool dude Greyson, no shit, no lie.

            • SeekerLancer

              While you understand the United States is predominantly Christian you should also understand why its government cannot and must not be in order for equal rights to remain truly equal.

      • DeeMill

        If you think they aren’t promoting those things (gblt and quoting koran) in school, you are sadly mistaken. They are most definitely promoting their agendas in our public schools, because they are federally funded and teachers have to teach the curriculum they’re given (My 2 dads, My 2 moms, etc). Take the last of what’s left of God in our schools – out, and we’ll have “government” teaching our kids how and what they want them to vote for, and even more “special agendas people” brainwashing our children and teaching them lies and immorality and filthiness. Parents – PLEASE, find out what your children are being taught and take them out of federally funded schools and either home school them, if you can, or teach your child well about God and Jesus, at home, so they won’t fall for the lies of satan in their school. Build them up spiritually to be able to stand in these last days.

        • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

          have to teach the curriculum they’re given

          Hey, my son’s reading book had a story with a kid in a wheelchair. Is that pushing the disabled agenda?

          find out what your children are being taught

          Absolutely!

          teach your child well about God and Jesus, at home

          Every child should be well versed in a variety of world religions. That’s the best tool you can give them to evaluate religious claims for themselves.

          • DeeMill

            Raise up a child in the way he should go, and he will not depart from it. “In the way he should go” means, in the ways of Yahweh. Not some dead god.

            • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

              So, you are against letting children think for themselves. And I bet you use the “teach both and let kids decide for themselves” line when it comes to evolution.

            • Earl G.

              I thought gods were immortal. Is there an obituary that lists the gods that died each week?

              • ShoeUnited

                Nietzsche used to run a weekly column until he found out all of them were already dead.

            • Carmelita Spats

              Yahweh is a genocidal monster, stalker, serial killer, rapist, pervert…Why the hell would ANYONE want their child to be “just like Yahweh”. FFS, he impregnated a teenager with himself so that he could sacrifice himself to himself…Yahweh is grotesque.

              • DeeMill

                Blasphemer – Bite me.

            • Leiningen’s Ants

              Your god, the god of your parents, and their parents, et cetera… it’s dead. We killed it with rocks and ate its flesh, blood, and marrow.

              When the scales do eventually fall from your eyes, I hope you don’t take it out too hard on yourself.

            • Leiningen’s Ants

              You’re one of those people who believe children are property, aren’t you.

            • Atticus Dogsbody

              As my father is a good, god-fearing man, does this mean I should teach my child to hate himself and occasionally smack him to the ground?

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ayinde-Truxon-Flores/1196187056 Ayinde Truxon Flores

          Yeah right. If schools would stop insisting on teaching abstinence only education even when it’s been shown to be ineffective, I would believe you.

        • Alice

          I did not say that! I was just saying that fundamentalists are hypocrites. Also, teaching GLBT equality and world religions is important so I’m hardly going to get upset about it.

          • RobMcCune

            He says the bible makes more sense of the world than any other book, don’t expect him to make much sense of any he reads.

        • Carmelita Spats

          How the Hell does Satan have time to lesson plan for so many kids? I have six preps a day and I’m a BIG believer in hands-on, project based, learning…the load is KILLING me! How the Hell does Satan do it? How does he grade so many authentic assessment portfolios? Does he have a teaching assistant? Does he address each child’s learning style (auditory, kinesthetic, visual…)? Is he a constructivist? Does he have Sped inclusion? What is Satan’s discipline management plan when it comes to cooperative learning? Does Satan write grants or are ALL of his programs federally funded? Has Satan been trained in non-violent crisis intervention? Does he have to fill out paperwork for the federal grants he receives? Does he have to be evaluated? Is Satan as busy as Jesus? I mean, hell, Jesus makes an appearance every Thursday in a pile of instant mashed potatoes in a truck stop in
          Bowling Green, Ky., where his visage appears to be weeping, but which
          Jesus says is merely caused by all the onions he chops to
          make his famed “Holy Christ!” hot salsa. Praise!

          • http://twitter.com/CrazyWriter68 SqueakyTiki

            You’re awesome, Carmelita. I love you. Heeheehee.

          • DeeMill

            I’ll say it to you, too. May Yahweh help you, because He’s the only one who can.

            • guestbgw

              I don’t like that the young man’s sister has been treated wrong. That is not the Christian way. I do want to say this, if you study the constitution, you find that “separation of church and state was not meant to mean there should be nothing of God in the schools. It was to keep the govt. out of Christianity, and to keep them from starting a state run church such as the “Church of England.” There are groups that are waging war on Christianity in the name of “Freedom of religion, or “equality”. However those who do that seem to only pick on Christianity when the name of Jesus Christ is involved. We don’t seem to hear anything if they are talking about the Buddhist religion, Hindiuism, Shintuism (sorry about my spelling) or Muslims. Someone mentioned prayer for those who don’t believe and that is absolutely the way to go. We as Christians need to be in prayer for our govt both national, state and local. Be in prayer for our country because truthfully our country is in trouble. There will be those who disparage my remarks, laugh etc. Sadly there will come a day when, if they don’t believe and accept Christ as their Savior, they will find out how real He is, but then it will be to late. The Bible tells us there will be a day when every knee shall bow to Christ and recognize Him as Lord, but for many they will do it and then be consigned to hell for all eternity.
              I did like the young man’s post who is willing to take up for his friend and help take care of the sister. A war of name calling does not help anyone and certainly is not the Christian.
              In Christ’s love,

        • Miss_Beara

          “last days”



          *snicker*

          • DeeMill

            Yeah, you keep going the way you’re going. Yahweh will have the last laugh.

            • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

              Laugh is what a vengeful god would do. Cry is what a loving god would do. But we know which Yeweh is from Exodus 20:5

              • DeeMill

                Yes, He will destroy His enemies and if that’s what you are to Him, then it’s your choice.

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  You do realize that’s the exact description of an abusive partner? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLphfq_g0kw

                • DeeMill

                  You are just silly minded

                • Thumper1990

                  Your loving God will destroy me? Well that’s not very loving.

          • Carolear

            No one is athiest. You cant disbelieve if you never believed.

            • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

              no, we’re atheists.

        • ShoeUnited

          Hey buddy. “government” is paying for it and we have a “government” for the people and by the people. So, I say the “government” should decide how to manage what they pay for.

          I don’t tell you what to buy, don’t tell me how to spend my tax payer money on something that isn’t mutually beneficial.

          • DeeMill

            You are living in a fantasy world if you think the government is working for the people these days. And hey, they make me pay for things I don’t want all the time. What makes you think you should be exempt? They are not for the people. They want to ‘control’ the people. And they are doing it now through trying to brain wash our children. And NO, they shouldn’t decide how to manage OUR tax dollars. WE should. I don’t want to pay for abortions, but they don’t seem to care what I think. So, I’ll try and vote them out. I don’t tell you what to buy either, and you are so blinded you can’t see what they’re doing.

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

              There is no “they”. There is no “us”. There is only people.

              I don’t want to pay for abortions, but they don’t seem to care what I think.

              You don’t “pay for abortions”. The Hyde Amendment has prohibited that for the US federal government for the last 37 years (although there are state-level provisions). And if you don’t want there to be abortions, you should be supporting making effective contraceptives available to everyone.

              • http://twitter.com/CrazyWriter68 SqueakyTiki

                “And if you don’t want there to be as many abortions as there are right
                now, you should be supporting making effective contraceptives available
                to everyone.”

                Ding! The sound of logic.

              • DeeMill

                The government funds Planned Parenthood with my tax dollars, so don’t even try to tell me that they don’t make me pay for abortions. You have no idea what’s coming do you? And, we should teach our kids ‘abstinence’ and that fornication is sin and raise them right, so that they don’t think of sex as something recreational that they can do with just anyone. We need to bring back the morals of this country and start doing things right for a change.

                • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

                  The government funds Planned Parenthood with my tax dollars, so don’t
                  even try to tell me that they don’t make me pay for abortions.

                  Yes, Planned Parenthood receives federal money. None of that goes to paying for abortions. It goes to the ~97% of Planned Parenthood’s operations that aren’t abortions – such as the 35% that is providing contraceptive services, 35% on STI prevention and treatment, 16% cancer screenings, and 10% on pregnancy and prenatal care. By providing effective contraceptives to ~4 million people, Planned Parenthood is one of the largest preventers of abortion in the United States.

                  fornication is sin

                  Simply saying “X is sin” means nothing. You have to demonstrate that there actually is something bad about X. And it happens that safe sex between two consenting adults is not inherently bad.

                  We need to bring back the morals of this country and start doing things right for a change.

                  People have always had recreational sex. And it also happens that abstinence-only sex ed programs are strongly correlated with people having sex earlier, and are causally connected with people having higher-risk sex and higher rates of unplanned pregnancy and abortion.

                • Thumper1990

                  “fornication is sin”
                  Look, another fundie scared of sex. Passionate, consensual sex is one of the most beautiful things two people can do together; it’s an expression of emotion unrivalled by any other act. If you choose to be sexually repressed that’s your business, but you could at least shut up and let the rest of us enjoy life.

              • Thumper1990

                See, your mistake there Michael was using facts. Such things have no effect on fundie Xian minds like DeeMill.

            • Leiningen’s Ants

              9____9;; Tell me more about the faked moon landings. And you actually have nurse access to sick people? I am appalled. I am sickened, and I you’re the disease. You’re a carrier, Typhoid Mary.

            • SeekerLancer

              *Drill Christian dogma into children.*
              *Claim it’s the government that does the brainwashing.*

              Look at that shiny mirror you’re holding.

            • E. Cedric

              Yeah, well I don’t want to pay for your tax free house of hatred and your bullshit myths being jammed down our collective throats with your displays on government grounds.

              Luckily, the law is only on one side here, so that means eventually you are going to go to bed pretty damn disappointed while I will sleep the sleep of the victorious.

              Lady, you are one daffy fucking idiot.

        • http://www.facebook.com/carrie.gibson.9883 Carrie Gibson

          Erm…why would you ask the people here to teach their children about Jesus? I don’t rely on the school for my son’s moral teaching. Neither should any other parent. School is there for math, reading, science (real science), history, etc. It’s my job to teach him right and wrong and how to approach the world. I also teach him to question everything and stay away from nut jobs peddling gods. Definitely the wrong audience lady. I sincerely hope my son’s school is promoting equality all day, every day.

          • http://twitter.com/CrazyWriter68 SqueakyTiki

            Amen, Carrie. Religious instruction doesn’t belong in a public school.

          • DeeMill

            Equality of what? I sincerely hope that you know your son’s blood will be on your own hands should you not teach him right. So, you’d better think long and hard on what you think you know.

            • allein

              Do you really think your semi-veiled threats on behalf of a being we don’t believe exists are going to change anyone’s mind?

              • DeeMill

                Maybe, someday.

        • SeekerLancer

          You forgot your tinfoil hat. Quick put it on before the Muslim mind beams get you and infect you with the gay virus.

          • CHITA

            AFTER BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA IS GONE AND OFF OFFICE, WHAT WILL BE LEFT TO AMERICA TO BE PROUD ?

        • SeekerLancer
        • RobertoTheChi

          You do realize that you’re on an atheist site, right? Do you even know what an atheist is? Let me clue you in…we don’t believe in your sadistic god (or any gods). Go spout your bullshit elsewhere.

          • DeeMill

            You do realize that I like talking to atheists, right? I like to hear your weird reasons for not believing in God. And on this site, I know that I am wiser than you because of the fact that I do believe. You’re wrong though, when you say you don’t worship any god, because if you don’t worship The God, Yahweh, you worship the opposite, satan. Everyone has a god of some kind, even if it’s ‘self’. I know, I know, you don’t believe in him either, but it’s ok, cause you will soon enough unless you have a heart change. I actually feel sorry for people on this site because of their unbelief. Whether you like it or not, Yahweh exists and there’s nothing you can do about it, except deny it. I will definitely pray for you and all the others and you can’t do anything about that either.

            • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

              I don’t believe in fairies or unicorns either. Do you feel super sorry for me about that?

            • RobertoTheChi

              It scares me that you’re a nurse. The patients you come in contact with are the ones I feel sorry for. I hope you don’t spout your bullshit to them, but something tells me that is exactly what you do. It’s pathetic that you troll atheist websites blabbering threats of hellfire and danmation. How about going out and helping people in need or donating money instead of the doing useless things like trolling and praying.

              • DeeMill

                But, it’s so much fun to come on here and irritate you. I hope someday, that I’m YOUR nurse, hon.

                • RobertoTheChi

                  How christ-like of you. You bring shame upon the nurses that take their job seriously and care about their patients and don’t use the opportunity to shove their beliefs on a person. Shame on you! Be careful what you wish for, I can assure you that I am the LAST person you would want as a patient.

                • DeeMill

                  Oooooh. You really scare me. Just kidding. We might even be friends, who knows? You might like me if you knew me. I love my patients and unless they ask, I don’t share my beliefs with them. I am nothing without Yahweh and His son. I pray that He has mercy on you and will spare your life until you come to know Him. But, that He will do whatever it takes, short of killing you, to help you realize that He’s real and that He loves you. I was only joking about irritating you, btw. I really would like to know why you feel the way you do.

            • http://twitter.com/JafafaHots Jafafa Hots

              “I like to hear your weird reasons for not believing in God”

              Weird reasons? What’s so weird about

              1. There’s not a shred of evidence for it

              2. What we DO know contradicts most of it

              3. It’s so ridiculous that I recognized it as a fairytale at age 4?

              There’s nothing weird about hearing a wildly, embarrassingly implausible story that wouldn’t even make for a decent comic book and thinking “um, that’s just plain silly.”

              • DeeMill

                And there’s nothing more stupid and unreliable than the Big Bang theory, that started with ‘nothing’ but ended up making up everything. How crazy is that? You can’t get something out of nothing. It’s impossible.

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  You can’t get something out of nothing. It’s impossible.

                  Even for Yaweh?

                • http://twitter.com/JafafaHots Jafafa Hots

                  Why do you not notice that your argument works just as well against gods?

      • SeekerLancer

        If it’s about Christianity then it’s a historical artifact about the foundation of our Christian nation. If it’s something they disagree with then it’s liberal brainwashing or the gay agenda or that Muslim Obama trying to control our kids.

        It’s really just about controlling what their kids and other kids believe. They can indoctrinate their children all they want, but when it comes to the rest of the kids in this country it’s not their business to dictate religion to them.

        That’s a realization they need to come to. It’s unlikely they will. I don’t think that they’re just scared about their own children’s religiosity, but the fact that the majority isn’t being fed the same thing. It’s the crippling fear of possibly no longer belonging to a privileged class. It’s one of the same basic fears that drives things like racism.

  • onamission5

    You heard it from their own mouths, they consider the Constitution of the United States to be anti-christian and upholding it an attack on their religious beliefs. Got that. The founding document from which all our liberties and rights are bestowed is against their religion.
    Tell me again oh fundangelicals how this is different from pushing for a theocracy. Go on, do.

    • Earl G.

      Have they ever claimed otherwise? A theocracy is clearly what they are pushing for, and I expect most of them would say that prospect sounds delightful (as long as it’s their particular brand of fundy-ism in charge, of course).

    • ShoeUnited

      Of course equality is against religion. Their books say so many times.

  • Billy Bob

    And now we get to see all sorts of examples of “Christian love” aimed at Gage and atheists in general.

    • Willy Occam

      As Jon Stewart said on one of his Daily Show segments: “The more you talk about Jesus, the less you have to act like him.”

      • Lilu Kanine

        Pffffft!

  • Greyson

    but i also want to say this. when i was a freshman, i didnt go to church, i didnt pray, i was religionless and when i moved there i was slightly uncomfortable with them too but the thing is, its basically wall decoration in size 16 font that nobody can read. and if anything one of my teachers Oklahoma State posters is offensive to me. but it is wall decor as well. i will also add that not all teachers have them in their rooms, and some have taken them down. so accusations would be pointless, i invite anyone to come visit Muldrow High School and see the atmosphere, its not as hostile as described, and ill tell tell gage that if he or his family is messed with to tell me and i will deal with it in a friendly way. as a senior i refuse to let bullying happen in my presence. i told myself that i wouldnt be like the seniors i had when i was a freshman so we are sticking to petitions and t-shirts, not the crusades.

    • onamission5

      If it’s basically just wall decoration, then why the unconstitutional fight to keep it?

      • Greyson

        its my constitutional right to defend what i believe. but i will do so in a peaceful way.

        • E. Cedric

          Oh, so now the Constitution means something to you? Greyson, you cannot invoke Constitutional rights to fight AGAINST Constitutional rights. Do you not see how hypocritical that is?

      • Earl G.

        Exactly. It’s either a non-religious wall decoration that has no significance and could be taken down without a fight … OR it’s a blatantly sectarian icon placed on government buildings to privilege members of only one religion and that will be clung to and fought for by the privileged members of that religion.

        Can’t have it both ways.

    • Quislet

      Sticking up for Gage and his family after they have been bullied is all well and good, but could you be a little more assertive and nip any bullying before it happens?

  • Greyson

    if anyone has questions feel free to email me at greysongann@gmail.com i will do my best to keep you posted on the well being of gage and his family.

  • Jake

    Is there a scholarship fund in the works yet? There probably oughtta be.

  • nomo

    Just like I figured, a homo.

    • http://www.facebook.com/matt.potter.73 Matt Potter

      Your comment doesn’t do anything other than show your ignorance.

    • unclemike

      “Gage’s girlfriend…” Reading comprehension not your thing, asshat?

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

      Homophobia is unacceptable. Cut it out.

    • Greyson

      nomo. why must you make the Christian faith look bad. youre ignorance is showing, please read the bible, and i will say a prayer for you.

      • Leiningen’s Ants

        yeah well, for all the good saying you’re praying does (matthew6:5-7) which is nothing, that prayer for your fellow christian got wasted like a bystander in a gangland shooting.

        Why don’t you read it and practice what you preach?

  • A3Kr0n

    Gage, you Evil Little Thing ;-)

    • 3lemenope

      It seems like this upcoming generation is just filled to the brim with evil little things. Makes one’s heart burst with pride. :-)

  • Soj

    Prayer in public school had been illegal for 2 years by the time I started school. They were still doing it every single day. I didn’t have anything against xtianity or religion in general – how could I, at age 6? But I knew that there were good reasons why prayer and the promulgation of xtianity (of which I was nominally, if lackadasically, a member at the time) were not to take place in a public school.

    So I took to a sort of passive resistance. I would not bow my head, fold my hands, or close my eyes for prayer. I would close my mouth and remain silent when we got to the part about “under god” in the pledge of allegiance. When teachers took me to task, I stated calmly that I was obeying the First Amendment of the Constitution, which I then quoted and briefly explained. (I did not know until decades later that “under god” had never been a part of the pledge until McCarthyism reared its ugly head in the 50′s, so I was actually adhering to the traditional pledge). When adults tried to tell me I must “follow the rules”, I said no, thank you, but that the rule of law actually stated that forcing me or anyone else to pray was what was against the rules.

    Eventually the school stopped doing it. I have no idea whether my 6 year old version of passive resistance had any part in that, but I do know that I was thereafter marked. There were repercussions; from the 8 year old who ran up to me on the playground and furtively whispered in my ear “I’m Jewish. I know it’s safe to tell you because you won’t tell on me” to the constant parade of arguments with other children about free will, pre-destination, and whether or not “heathens” really went to hell, to the 4th grader who beat me (2nd grader) up after school when I passed his house on the way home while his unshaven and doubtless hung-over preacher father leaned out an upstairs window screaming “BEAT THE DEVIL OUT OF THE LITTLE HEATHEN”.

    But you know I never have regretted taking that stand from that day to this, not even when the big kid had me down and was kicking me. Fists don’t hold the answers, they just make it clear that their owners don’t even know what the questions are.

    I’m not anti-religion. I am anti-dogma. Many vocal xtians in this country clearly have no idea what persecution really is. I guess, given that they can’t recognize when they are doing it to someone else (such as a small-for-her-age 6 year old, or a teenage boy in OK), it’s no surprise they can’t recognize when it is NOT being done to them.

  • http://agmmusings.blogspot.com/ Alessia Lane

    I can only hope my boys have half the chutzpah Gage does. Proud of you!

  • Joseph

    As a Deist, who has read the Bible and several other religious books and that respects Christian teachings (So far as the teachings of Jesus), I think you did the right thing. Public schools should not be treated as a church or a mouthpiece for any religious ideology. May the compass of enlightenment guide your path and your actions remain square and solid in defense of the law that was designed to protect intellectual advancement.

    • Greyson

      i must add, i agree 100% that in public schools there should be no religious teachings, but at Muldrow High School, which ive attended for four years, not one teacher has quoted the bible, pressured me to learn anything about christian beliefs. before every football game, we would say a prayer to help ensure the safety of every player on the field, but thats as close to teaching Christianity as it got.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

        before every football game, we would say a prayer to help ensure the safety of every player on the field, but thats as close to teaching Christianity as it got.

        If the school is endorsing those prayers and requiring participation in them, that is still privileging Christianity, and is illegal.

        Also: prayer does not help ensure the safety of the players on the field. People do that.

        • Greyson

          our coaches had nothing to do with it. strictly students sir. our atheist football players had an option to join in prayer or say something in hope or not say anything at all. nothing was forced and was not done by the school.

          • http://CoffeeShopAtheist.com/blog Patrick

            So what you’re saying is if someone wanted to out themselves as a nonbeliever on the football team, they can do that in front of all the other players and coaches and school?

            Only to be derided and singled out by everyone, as is the case currently with Gage?

            Greyson, I appreciate your attempts at helping the situation, but have a bit more empathy about the situation! Prayer creates an exclusion. If everyone at school prayed to Allah 3 times per day, on their prayer mat, and you were give the option to stand in the back corner, would that be fair to you or not?

            Take your foot off and put it on the other shoe.

      • Leiningen’s Ants

        I hate to be the Mean Atheist who quotes Scripture, but, Matthew 6: verses 5-8 pretty much explicitly says that the Holy Father absolutely ignores any prayer made by people in sight of other people. Seriously. If you believe in god, you’re not doing your team any good by praying the way you’ve been praying. That’s more like masturpraytion. Or prayersturbation. Matthew 6:1-8 is pretty clear about public prayer being worthless, and any prayer longer than it needs to be is ignored.

        • ShoeUnited

          Mat 6:5-8 is my favorite passage.

          “… not like the hypocrite…”

          • Leiningen’s Ants

            “They think they will be heard for their much speaking.”

  • Alice

    Geez! And they’re the ones who whine and scream about being persecuted? Hypocrites!

  • Timmah

    Well done, that took a lot of guts especially in a place like OK.

  • snicketmom

    I know it takes a lot of courage to stand up for what is right when people want to make you feel you are wrong. I admire his strength and courage. I hope he knows other students may be inspired to start standing up to injustices like this that happen too frequently.

  • Marie

    Very Brave, Gage. Best of luck to you.

  • Ace

    The commandments should stay up.

    If they offend you, don’t read them.
    We are a nation based on God. Deal with it.

    • http://gloomcookie613.tumblr.com GloomCookie613

      The plaques need to go.

      If that offends you: Too bad, it’s the law. We are a nation built on our laws. Deal with it.

    • ShoeUnited

      The commandments should go down.

      If that offends you, read them at home or church.
      We are a nation based on equality. Deal with it.

    • E. Cedric

      Well there we go. Thanks for giving us that mandate ACE. You just saved us thousands of man hours ACE. ACE you have shown yourself to be the sage of the Internet, the Solomon of cyberspace, the Heroditus of HTML.

      ACE, if you are offended by Atheist billboards, don’t read them. Don’t put up a stink. Don’t call for them to be taken down, or worse, pour piant on them. Just walk away.

      If you do not like abortions, don’t have one. Don’t go to the clinics or call the doctors. Just don’t have one.

      ACE, if you do not like gay marriage, don’t marry a gay guy.

      We are not a nation based on god. Deal with it ACE.

    • Alice

      One minute fundamentalists say America is a Christian nation, and the next minute they say America is run by a legion of secular Satanic minions. You really need to get your story straight.

      • ShoeUnited

        You ever consider that maybe the Christian Fundamentalists are a legion of Satanic minions, and are merely tipping their hand to people “in the know”?

        I mean, given the benefit of the doubt and say they’re right: maybe both stories reconcile. That would actually explain everything they do.

    • Timmah

      We are not a nation based on God. Get over it.

    • Burzghash

      We are in no way a nation based on God. None. Whatsoever. And your pet religion has no place in our schools. Period.

    • JA

      Please point out in the Constitution where it says the U.S. is a Christian nation.

      Also, I suppose you’ll be fine with Wicca’s Rule of Three being posted alongside the Commandments. If it offends you, just don’t read it.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Smith/100003026114865 John Smith

      If you want theocracy, then you are an enemy of democracy. You’re guilty of sedition, an enemy of freedom, and you belong in Guantanamo.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

        No, Ace is not guilty of sedition – that would require active incitement to insurrection. Nor does Ace belong in Guantanamo. As that place is run now, nobody belongs there.

        Ace is incredibly mistaken, no less and no more.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

      We are a nation based on God

      No. We are not. Please learn your history and deal with that.

    • RobertoTheChi

      No, we are not a nation based on god. Crack open a history book for once and get your nose out of your book of sick and twisted fairy tales.

  • Leiningen’s Ants

    Okay, transmuting my gratuitously explosive Jwah day vee-vray into (more) absurdity, this Mr. Younger Pulliam needs to be drawn as a political cartoon. Put him in a train engineer’s cap, leaning out of the window grinning, pumping the velocity of the Good Train Equality so hard it barely sticks to the rails~~~! Maybe a Flash animation! Dude needs the rest of us to stitch his rightfully earned red carpet, non?

    • ShoeUnited

      Do you do acid before writing messages on the internet or do you genuinely think that was in any way witty?

      • http://www.facebook.com/rodney.barnes.5688 Rodney Barnes

        I understood it fine. What’s the problem? We’ve gone from picking on the religious to picking on those with creative writing skills?

        • ShoeUnited

          It smelled of sarcasm to me. I could be wrong, text is not forgiving.

          • Leiningen’s Ants

            I admit my humor is as dry as a martini, but do I have to end every post with a picture of Barney Stinson or a winky smiley emoticon? 9__9; cmon cmon, I’m on your side, the side of law, the constitutiony side! Cut me some slack, I’m fuckin 30~

            • 3lemenope

              You youngin’, you!

            • ShoeUnited

              I’m 31, get off my lawn.

              Seriously though, I apologize. With the trolls and xians out in full force today, it’s sometimes hard with Poe hanging around.

            • midnight rambler

              Plus, you’ve got a great name – as an entomologist, that was one of my favorite childhood stories ;)

              • Leiningen’s Ants

                Imagine if that cigar smoking shabby eagle looking son of a gun had Aquaman style insect-taming powers; all riding around atop a mound of insects~<3 "Like hell I'll do a bunk!" (Aburame clan?! yeah sure)

      • Leiningen’s Ants

        What?

  • NewDawn2006

    Good for you Gage. I would be proud to be your teacher.

  • http://www.facebook.com/theron.corse Theron Corse

    So the fundamentalists are OK with the government endorsing a particular religion, a particular creed. Good to know – so they won’t mind if I post the Four Noble Truths in a bunch of classrooms, right?

  • http://www.facebook.com/RJ.Deol Rj Deol

    who cares? can’t you just go about your business without fucking with people, it’s not like they were making you read the 10 commandments out loud every day. you’re just asking for trouble dude. what does this change? you’re just pissing off a bunch of irrational religious pricks who won’t hesitate to hurt you and your family.

    • http://www.facebook.com/theron.corse Theron Corse

      You obviously don’t understand the concept of Christian privilege and just how overwhelming and bullying it can be. No on needs to walk into a taxpayer-funded compulsory institution of learning every day and be reminded that they are second class citizens. You have to stand up to these folks if the bullying is to ever end.

    • Burzghash

      No.

  • Jream

    Reporting in from GA aka part of the bible belt. I’m a Christian and I fully support you Gage. It sucks that you sister is dealing with this unwanted attention though, just be there for her because she’ll need it. Stay strong buddy.

  • Edmond

    “If other kids don’t want to read the Ten Commandments, then they don’t have to.”
    Then doesn’t that kind of defeat the purpose of calling them “commandments”?

    • Leiningen’s Ants

      The ten things you shouldn’t do but we can’t name.
      Colbert: what are the ten commandments?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Smith/100003026114865 John Smith

    “I want people to know this isn’t me trying to attack religion. This is me trying to create an environment for kids where they can feel equal.”

    The know that’s what it’s about, but like all bigots, bullies and thugs who get their way, they object to being trerated like equals. They “think” it’s unfair when it’s not unfair.

    .

  • Wayne

    The founding fathers made it VERY clear that the United States would not be founded on Any religion and it was their intention to keep full separation. Why are Christians trying to re-write history? If they really thought logically about it, they would realize they were wrong! Closing your eyes, putting your fingers in your ears and yelling “LA LA LA LA LA LA doesn’t cut it anymore! History tells you that you are mistaken. Decency tells you that you discriminating, and morals DO NOT come from the bible. That is an argument you will lose every time!

  • Wayne

    Kudos to Grayson! Not only a proud Christian, but a decent one at that! I am a proud atheist, respectful of anyone who promotes tolerance and decency. Religious intolerance should never trump the rights of any person. And by the way, your Commandments are borrowed from other religions. Oh ya, the story of the birth of Jesus – borrowed! Virgin birth? sorry – borrowed! Almost a dozen other accounts of virgin births. I respect your right to believe, not the right to command that it be so! In the beginning, Man created God! Peace to all!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Cory-Gage/591483866 Cory Gage

    there seem to be a lot of people over on this site in the comments that just don’t get
    it.
    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/05/11/Oklahoma-Students-Fight-To-Keep-Ten-Commandments-In-School

    • Timmah

      Why did I look??? MAH BRAIN CELLS THEY ARE DYING.

  • andreasma

    how weak this religion must be that they need reminders in every classroom. Otherwise the children might think for themselves for a second and realize its a load of bull.

    It reminds me of North Korea, where every house, office and school must have a photo of Dear Leader and play the government radio (no volume or off knob).

  • madtom1999

    Why is it these christians behave in such and un-christian manner all the time. Perhaps if they read the bible…

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sandy-Kokch/100000074576649 Sandy Kokch

    Well done young man! As Militades said at the battle of Marathon – AT THEM!

    And a second Well Done and Hats Off to Greyson – if you really want to help out mate get along to that meeting (which will no doubt turn into a bully boy bash) and stand up for Gage and your fellow non nutball Christians.

  • SeekerLancer

    I just have to sigh at the “They don’t have to read them if they don’t want to argument.”

    You know, kids can just bring their own copies of the commandments to school if it’s important for them to be reminded every five minutes that they shouldn’t kill someone or steal from people. If the “don’t have to read them” camp really cared about not shoving their religion in people’s faces we wouldn’t have this problem of publicly displaying the commandments in the first place, because they wouldn’t do it.

    But of course, they do care about shoving it in people’s faces. They’re not fighting for religious expression, which they are free and welcome to do all they want as the commandment t-shirts thing proves, it’s about bullying those who believe differently. It’s about reminding them that they’re not welcome.

  • Michelle

    “I want people to know this isn’t me trying to attack religion. This is me trying to create an environment for kids where they can feel equal.”

    This kid is awesome and is fighting a battle that even some adults are afraid to fight.

  • http://plus.google.com/u/0/111051039748078110427/about novenator

    First of all, THANK YOU Gage. There was some mixing of school and church in my upbringing too, and even though I was a christian at the time, I understood it was wrong, but failed to do anything about it. It is one of my biggest regrets of my life.

    That being said, understand that conservative christians can be like the Taliban, and there will be a backlash for your brave and patriotic stand. They will likely seek retribution, erroneously trying to cast you as the villain and them as the victims, even though it is precisely the opposite of that. Be strong, and understand that they don’t understand what freedom of religion really is, or they wouldn’t try to destroy it by imposing their religion on others.

    If things get bad, remember that it’s not too long until graduation, then GTFO out of that town. Muldrow is a very small pond, but the world is a large place. Take pride that you are one of the only folks in Muldrow brave enough to stand up for what’s right, and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

  • Quislet

    RE: Rev. Tiger. It is good that he is kind of supportive, but he still thinks a legal fight to keep the 10 Commandments on the classroom walls would be about religious freedom.

  • peck2

    If you hate the commandments so much…ignore them…as I will ignore you.

    • Quislet

      They are hard to ignore when they are put in front of you day after day. And it is not so much that the 10 Commandments are hated, most people – even atheists- think it is wrong to kill, steal, and lie.(and right to honor your mother and father)

      If you love the commandments so much, you should have them “written on [y]our heart” and not need to see a physical copy.

    • Antinomian

      @peck2- Thank you for coming by to express your feelings. I hope we can clear up some of your misconceptions about us, the people who value true freedom of religion.

      First, you should know that we don’t “hate” your 10 Commandments. We do however find them to be quite silly. Thusly we are glad that the laws of this great country aren’t based in any way upon them. The only thing I want to throw at my children are things like baseballs or footballs.

      I have to ask you to ask yourself this: If the shoe were on the other foot and you had to veiw and were expected to live by the laws of a majority religion that you didn’t agree with, being yourself as the minority, how would that suit you?

      I hope that by dwelling upon this question for awhile you will come to see the issue at hand and in the future spread some human love instead of your “Christian Love”.

    • Timmah

      That’s a really convenient viewpoint as nobody is fighting to put up quotes from say, Christopher Hitchens in classrooms now are they?

      How fast would people go bannanas over a poster with a picture of Adam & Eve with the quote “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”? I’m guessing the viewpoint of if you don’t like it just don’t look at it would go right out the window.

    • onamission5

      Good job with the ignoring there. Absolutely stellar.

  • Owen Nohn

    A fine citizen

  • Sue Blue

    Harassing, bullying, and threatening high school and grade school atheists…but Christians are the persecuted ones.

    What would Jesus do? He’d certainly snub, scream at, spread rumors about, and generally make miserable any kid who disagreed with him. Right. You go Christians! Keep making more atheists with your lovingkindness!

  • Patrick Elliott

    Well, you see, the constitution is a bit like the Bible, some parts of it are not, “meant to be taken literally.” Though, actually, I am really, seriously, surprised some of these people don’t argue that, after all, they already *do* argue, “Oh, no, those parts either don’t apply to me, or you are interpreting them wrong, it really means what Fox News, or my priest says it does.” Its only one step from that to claiming that the religious clause is merely some sort of “guideline”, which only counts when they say it does, and isn’t actually “real”.

    Then, some where along the line we will get the constitutional literalists, who will insist that… oh, no wait, we have those too, arguing that its “infallible”, and therefore “advocist judges”, while actually arguing that racist, vile, homophobic, etc. things are all OK, because the constitution doesn’t address them, so all those “advocist judges” are just pushing someone’s agenda, not following the law.

    Yeah, I think this has got to be exactly how they look at the constitution. As a holy document, which either a) has to be strictly interpreted, according to their own dogma, or b) has bits that no longer apply, because they where only needed 200 years ago, and are not merely “guidelines” to follow. It would explain a lot, and is just one more piece of evidence that “Biblical thinking” warps minds.

    • DeeMill

      Yahweh says what He means and His truth and judgment will come. There are no contradictions in the Bible. He is a just, righteous, jealous, loving, kind, gentle and great Elohim – to those who love Him. To those who are His enemy, well, you have no hope.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

        There are no contradictions in the Bible

        You are a liar. I already explained why.

        And none of us are enemies of any god. You can’t be an enemy of something that doesn’t exist.

        • DeeMill

          You’re so naive you don’t realize that choosing to deny Him, you ARE His enemy.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

            Again, I cannot be the enemy of something that doesn’t exist. I am an enemy of wrong ideas such as the ones you have been writing here, since those most certainly do exist.

            • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

              It’s a good thing most real parents are more understanding of their teens’ mood swings.

          • http://twitter.com/JafafaHots Jafafa Hots

            There are over 3500 deities that humans have believed in or still believe in.
            You’re denying them.

            Boy are THEY gonna be pissed off.

            • DeeMill

              That’s because they aren’t deities silly. None of them are alive. They are only statues and images.

              • http://twitter.com/JafafaHots Jafafa Hots

                That’s correct. NONE of them are alive.
                NONE.

  • Lofty142

    The issue of religion should be decided by the state of Oklahoma, not the federal government. After all, The First Amendment says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.” Twelve government employees AKA The Supreme Court took it upon themselves with some creative legalize to change the meaning of the word “Congress” to “The School Board of Muldrow Oklahoma.” It seems wrong that one atheist can make all the other students attend a godless school.

    Our Constitution also says, “This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof … shall be the supreme Law of the Land.” It is obvious that changing the word Congress to “The School Board of Muldrow Oklahoma” is not pursuant to the Constitution and the Supreme Court ruling is therefore null and void and not to be followed

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

      The issue of religion should be decided by the state of Oklahoma, not the federal government.

      Wrong. The state government has exactly the same duties to not promote religion (or irreligion) as the federal government does..

      It seems wrong that one atheist can make all the other students attend a godless school.

      The school is not “godless”, it’s secular. Not the same thing.

      • DeeMill

        It’s funny how after all these decades of the Ten Commands being displayed, that one tiny group of people are able to dictate to us what is or is not allowed. May they reap what they sew.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

          This is not “one tiny group”, nor is this an original case. The FFRF maintains a list of similar cases, and has for a very long time: e.g. http://ffrf.org/legal/challenges/highlighted-court-successes/item/12381-ffrf-wins-ten-commandments-case .

          And the history for the last several decades has always been the same: the courts have consistently held that publicly-funded schools must respect the separation of church and state.

        • onamission5

          Yes, may we reap a secular government which does not endorse any religion and allows all believers and non believers to privately worship as they wish, or don’t wish. Sounds nice, doesn’t it?

    • Quislet

      So, would you be OK with it if next year there is an influx of Muslims into Muldrow and they now represent a majority of the population there and they decided to hang passages from the Koran in all the classroom?

      What if all the Muslims in the US moved to Oklahoma and became the majority in Oklahoma, Should they be allowed to make Islam the state religion of

      • DeeMill

        No religion should come from ‘another country’ to America and try to change our laws to match their laws. If they come here, they need to obey the laws of our land, and forget the ones they left behind. If you don’t like God or what America stands for, don’t come here. If you want to live under Sharia Law, then stay in your own country.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

          If you don’t like God or what America stands for

          The United States of America does not “stand for” your god or for anyone else’s god. Nor does it stand for the lack of god. That’s what a secular state means.

        • wildwilly1111

          So you support the Peyote and other religions of the Native Americans and reject the Abrahamic religions imported from other countries?

          Cool!

          • DeeMill

            Nope, Just certain ones that are obviously against Yahweh.

        • Sue Blue

          I don’t want to live under the Christian equivalent of Sharia law, either. That’s why the government and government institutions cannot endorse any religion in any public forum. Furthermore, “God” is not synonymous with “America”, and “America” doesn’t stand for anything except the name of a nation prefaced by “United States of”. America is populated by humans of dozens of ethnic groups, creeds, religions, non-religions, etcetera – and always has been. Christians were not the first group to live here, and they have never been the only group to live here. Or doesn’t your revisionist history acknowledge Native Americans (who had large “nations” and city-states here thousands of years ago) and pagan Vikings, who were the first known Europeans to set foot on the continent more than a thousand years ago (hundreds of years before the first Christian)?

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

            Slight correction: the Norse who traveled to North America were a mixture of Christians and non-Christians (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Erikson ).

        • onamission5

          Clusestick: Christianity came to the Americas from another country. Your religion? So not anything like the religions that were here to begin with.

    • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

      Well, if the Confederate states hadn’t decided that it was cool to own people, per Leviticus 25:44, we wouldn’t have needed the 14th amendment to nullify your argument.

      • DeeMill

        Do you work? If so, you are a slave to your boss or company. We all serve or work for someone, and we are all becoming slaves to the government. What’s worse? We think we’re a free society, but we’re not.

        • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

          Look, I get you ‘know’ your god exists. But really? You’re comparing slavery to working for a living? You’re not even going to go on the “it was best for the slave and only for six years (as long as they were male Hebrews)?”

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

          If so, you are a slave to your boss or company

          You are using that word to mean something that it does not mean:

          Slavery, noun.
          1. (Law) the state or condition of being a slave; a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over
          another and controls his life, liberty, and fortune
          2. the subjection of a person to another person, esp in being forced into work.

          I work for an organization financed by the US government, under the terms of a negotiated contract that places strict limits on what I can be compelled to do. I am paid a paycheck, which I can spend any way I please. I can leave my position after informing my boss that I’m doing so. That is not slavery.

          We think we’re a free society, but we’re not.

          We are a free society, but individual freedom has limits imposed on it due to the constraint of not unduly infringing on the needs and freedoms of others. Those limits vary somewhat depending on the situation, and are not set ideally. But the principle of individual liberty is still a very strong part of current American society.

        • Derrik Pates

          I am not a “slave” to my employer. I can happily pick up and go work elsewhere any time I please. Slaves were *property*. They couldn’t get up and go find another job, because they weren’t seen as people. They were owned by the slave master, and until he SOLD them, they couldn’t go anywhere. If they did, they could be hunted down, dragged back kicking and screaming, or killed at their owner’s discretion.

          That’s a far cry from the reality of today.

        • http://twitter.com/JafafaHots Jafafa Hots

          Your comment is absolutely disgusting.
          A moment ago, above, I hinted that you might not mind slavery as you pine for the 19th century. I thought you might protest.

          Now I see you would not – here you are literally defending slavery.

          Millions of people stolen, murdered, raped… and to you it’s nothing.

          The bible you love was used to justify that racist genocide. And you seemingly find no fault with that.

          THIS is why we fight you – civilized moral behavior requires that such vile bigotry and evil thoughts and practices be fought, requires that chosen ignorance and belief in impossibilities used to support individual bigotries, hatreds and immoral and barbaric be rendered as powerless as possible.

          Do YOU work, Dee? Does your boss own you, beat you, rape you? Does your boss sell you away and sell your children to someone else?
          Does your boss rape you and then enslave his own children that result from that rape?

          To equate working for pay to the genocide that was slavery is an absolute obscenity.

          When you equate slavery with having a job, you demonstrate that you have no moral authority with which to lecture anyone.

          Your beliefs are vile, uncivilized and abhorrent.

    • DeeMill

      I agree with you. What happened to the majority deciding what should be done? Oh, I guess that would be ‘politically incorrect’. I hate that phrase “politically correct” because there’s nothing correct about it.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

        In US law, the majority has never had unrestricted power to decide what should be done, because that leads to incredible abuses of that power. The problem of the “tyranny of the majority” has been recognized for a very long time.

        And while something being “politically correct” does not make something good, nor does being “politically incorrect” – many bad ideas are politically incorrect.

      • http://twitter.com/JafafaHots Jafafa Hots

        The majority does not get to decide civil rights.
        If that were the case, we’d still have slavery.

        You might not mind though, seeing as a bit above you were pining for the good old days before Gvt. schools (the 19th century) when people WERE enslaved, women couldn’t vote, etc.

        • DeeMill

          There are good laws and bad laws and ‘no’, I don’t believe in bringing back slavery, although we are fast becoming slaves to our own government and not by choice. But, there is clearly no harm in displaying the 10 Commandments. No one is forcing anyone to live by them.

          • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

            Is there, then a purpose to displaying the 10 commandments? Do you think someone is going to look at them and decide not to steal a pencil?

            Shouldn’t anyone who really does want to live by them already know them by heart?

            Curious, when do you consider ‘The Sabbath’ to start and end?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=574401415 Denis Freeland

    But if they take them down …..how will the christians know that they shouldnt kill ?

    • DeeMill

      Uh, I don’t believe it’s the ‘Christians’ going around killing people these days. Maybe you should put the Ten Commands up for the ‘pro-abortionists’ and people who like killing babies (like Gosnell), instead of parents taking the time to teach their children the right way to honor their bodies. And teach young boys how to be respectful of young girls

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

        Abortion does not “kill babies”. It deals with zygotes and fetuses that are not capable of surviving on their own. Almost all abortions are done very early in pregnancy, and those few that happen later are almost all done because a fetus is not viable or has some serious congenital defect. If there is any significant chance of the fetus surviving as a healthy neonate and there is need to terminate a pregnancy, the standard of care is to induce labor / perform an instrument delivery and call in the folks from NICU if necessary. As a nurse, you should know all that.

        Gosnell incredibly evilly exploited women who were unable to get the health care they needed from safe clinics in a timely fashion. The solution to things like that is to make contraceptives available to everyone (and educate everyone on their use) and make sure that anyone who wants an abortion can get one in safe conditions without undue delays.

        Re. the rest of your post, go read this: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html

        And all of what you wrote is irrelevant to Denis’ not-very-funny joke.

      • Gus Snarp

        Uh, I don’t believe it’s the ‘Christians’ going around killing people these days.

        I beg to differ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#Murders

  • http://www.facebook.com/christina.collins.314 Christina Collins

    Gage, I would like to voice my support. I am originally from Tulsa/Eufaula, Oklahoma. I have noticed how my home state has become more conservative and religiously fundamental. In my youth I felt more of a ‘to each his own’ attitude. Although, they did like to raid the local metaphysical bookstore and ruin her stock of herbs and teas. Ridiculous! There are important reasons that a democracy has a separation between church and state. It seems as though some would have this country on a slow march toward a theocracy. Even though, some like Aaron Tiger, may be well intentioned his comments reminded me of something one of my religion professors would always say. My professor was a long time Methodist minister who certainly did not believe in the literal interpretation of the biblical literature and was not very tolerant of those who wished to save the souls of others. He would always tell them not to save their soul on him. As for me, I am not Christian or Atheist. You will, I am certain, experience what I call ‘character building moments’. As Emerson would say, “Whoso would be a man, must be a nonconformist. He who would gather immortal palms must not be hindered by the name of goodness, but must explore it if it be goodness. Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Absolve you to yourself, and you shall have the suffrage of the world.” Congratulations on being a nonconformist!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1484991805 Paula Bryder

    What a brave, smart kid.

  • Thumper1990

    Greyson, if every Christian was like you, I would have no problem with religion. Well, significantly less of a problem :) Sincerely, well done, you are a good person. It is unfortunate that you have morons like DeeMills to contend with, just as we have morons like Baby_Raptor.

  • Beth

    Well done young sir!

  • Gus Snarp

    Gage is a brave young man.

    Meanwhile, those who are protesting, petitioning, and wearing Ten Commandment t-shirts should realize that while they have every right to do so, there’s nothing brave or noble about taking part in a “protest” that is supported, if not participated in, by the overwhelming majority of their peers, parents, pastors, and teachers. It is simply a chance for them to feel like they’re being noble when they are simply conforming.

    Those who stoop to harassment and bullying are the lowest of the low, by religious, non religious, or legal standards, they are wrong and should be punished to the limit of school disciplinary procedures and the law.

  • http://www.facebook.com/nathan.stenzel Nathan Stenzel

    Religious matters should not be brought up by public schools. There are parents and churches for that. The 10 commandments while mainly common sense covers some things that should not be brought up in school. A few substitution should at least be made and then it should be reordered by importance to the school. That would result in a list of do’s and dont’s like you would see at a public pool. “No stealing” should be on there. “No bullying” should be on there too. “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all” should be on there as well. Maybe even “no cheating” and “raise your hand to ask a question” too.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

      The 10 commandments while mainly common sense covers some things that should not be brought up in school.

      The second half of that is fine, but the first isn’t. Only three or four of the 10 commandments count as “common sense”, and three or four are explicitly religious dictates that render the whole thing flagrantly illegal for a publicly-funded school to promote.

  • MHS Alumni

    Why would anyone, regardless of their religious belief or lack thereof, be offended by a set of principals meant to remind us how to treat each other. I attended MHS and I am now in education myself. I am proud of any school who continues to keep the 10 Commandments in front of students as well as teachers to help us remember how to look beyond ourselves. If our entire society followed them, we would NOT be having this debate, because we would be treating each other as we would want others to treat us. Remember to Love thy neighbor as you love yourself, even if you are an atheist.

    • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

      Remember to Love thy neighbor as you love yourself, even if you are an atheist.

      Which isn’t actually one of the 10 commandments. But not working on the Sabbath is. Do you make sure to not do any work on the Sabbath? If not, then why is it so important to tell people not to?

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

      Why would anyone, regardless of their religious belief or lack thereof,
      be offended by a set of principals meant to remind us how to treat each
      other..

      Because many of them say things that no non-Christian/non-Jew can approve of, that are flagrantly illegal to require, and have nothing to do with how to treat each other (the first 3 in particular).

      It disappoints me that you work in education and are proud of schools flagrantly violating the law.

      Remember to Love thy neighbor as you love yourself,

      Not a bad guideline, but it isn’t one of the 10 Commandements.

      • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

        Personally, I’d prefer the Linus Pauling version

        Do unto others 20% better than you would expect them to do unto you, to correct for subjective error.

    • http://twitter.com/Renee_L_TenEyck lone objectivist

      just an FYI-if you do your homework, you’ll find out that christians makes up nearly 89% of prison inmates. Just saying. that must mean the rest of us don’t need the incentive or threat of heaven or hell to choose to live our lives right and treat people the way we want to be treated.It’s called using your own brain and heart.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1199676569 Rylan Theprism Ra-Low Hill

    Good job Gage!!! You did the right thing!

  • Jordan F

    Drastic difference between making everyone do what you want and realizing that putting religious text in classrooms is blatant indoctrination. Pretty disgusting that Christians pretend to play a victim’s role in this nonsense.

  • Sue Blue

    Yes, let’s have the Ten Commandments posted in every class in every school….because everybody knows that nothing makes kids behave like a list of rules on a wall. By posting Biblical tropes on the wall, they’re killing two birds with one stone – ignoring the Constitution, and boring the shit out of kids with warnings about pissing off some bearded guy in the sky.

    Yeah, that’ll work.

  • Tammie

    I wish when this first came about, all the kids at the school who were protesting and griping were handed a piece of paper. Simply ask them to write down the 10 commandments. See how many of them actually knew what they were fighting for. I bet most wouldn’t be able to name all 10. If they were so important to them, they would be able to name them all. I figure most are just caught up in the hype. I’m sure many never even noticed them hanging in the school in the first place.

    • allein

      I said something similar in the other post on this topic – how many of these kids would even have noticed if the school had just quietly taken the plaques down without comment? (Come to think of it, how many teachers would notice?)

  • are we equal or not?

    i thought there was a freedom of religion in this country which is why gage wants the commandments down? right because his atheist (his religious) views don’t approve? but what about the rest of the students who religious views do? or get offended when their takin off the walls? i don’t believe classrooms should be forced to put up the signs but they also shouldn’t be forced to take them down. that is in fact choosing one religion over the other, and not freedom of religion unless your an atheist. I am a christian and have seen atheist signs hung up around my campus. I was saddened but not offended, because they have a right to be there just like the ten commandments.

    • Gus Snarp

      You have the right to hang the Ten Commandments in your home. No one has the right to hang them in any government building, including public school classrooms. Freedom of religion means that you may practice your religion, but it also says that the government may not endorse a religion or discriminate against those of differing or no faith. Making no religious statement at school and leaving that to the home and church is the right action in terms of religious freedom. It is not an endorsement of atheism, an endorsement of atheism equivalent to the Ten Comandments would be hanging a quote that explicitly argued that there was no god and to worship one was foolish and ignorant.

      i don’t believe classrooms should be forced to put up the signs but they also shouldn’t be forced to take them down.

      But the classrooms are government property and the teachers (or whoever hung the signs in the first place) were acting as government employees. That’s the moment at which someone associated with the government forced someone to do something (I assume that you recognize that it is the government who has the power to force things on people against their will and is restricted from doing so by the Constitution).

      Hanging the commandments of a religion on the wall of a public school classroom is clearly and endorsement of a particular religion and in violation of the Constitutional requirement that there be no establishment of religion.

      • Daniel Walker

        Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

        Congress made no law saying that schools had to display the ten commandments, but you are twisting the Constitution to make a law that prohibits everyone else’s free exercise of religion by displaying them.

        • Gus Snarp

          I’m not doing anything, the Supreme Court has, using the power given to them by the Constitution.

    • Derrik Pates

      You clearly don’t understand what freedom of religion is. An empty wall isn’t support for atheism – it’s staying out of the religion business. Shools, as agents of the government, are bound by the Separation Clause of the First Amendment to show no favor or disfavor to any religious opinion. Putting the Ten Commandments on the wall (particularly one of the Christian variants – did you know there are different Ten Commandments?) shows obvious and unquestionable favor for Christianity.

      That’s like saying that no one should be upset if the school posts excerpts from the Vedas on the walls of the school, because that’s not favoring any religion. Somehow I doubt non-Hindus would see it that way. Guess what? Same for non-Christians and the Ten Commandments.

      Gage is not asking for quotes from Hitchens’ “god is not Great” to be posted on the walls in place of the Ten Commandments. If he were, that would be proselytizing for atheism. He’s simply asking that, as they are agents of the government, they refrain from pushing any religious agenda. Why is that so unreasonable?

    • DeeMill

      Amen

      • http://twitter.com/JafafaHots Jafafa Hots

        The US Constitution, the LAW, was there before the commandments were on the wall, before the school was even built.

      • http://twitter.com/Renee_L_TenEyck lone objectivist

        if we’re going to have the commandments posted, perhaps we should have passages from Islam, Buddhism, Native American spiritualities, and the flying spaghetti monster posted also.

        Why I’m against pre-game prayers

        “Coming from a fairly traditional Southern upbringing, I was not at all initially surprised when a voice came over the PA and asked everyone to rise for the invocation. I had been through this same ritual at many other high-school events and thought nothing of it, so to our feet my wife and I stood, bowed our heads, and prepared to partake of the prayer. But to our extreme dismay, the clergyman who took the microphone and began to pray was not a Protestant minister or a Catholic priest, but a Buddhist priest who proceeded to offer up prayers and intonations to god-head figures that our tradition held to be pagan.”
        http://www.wnd.com/2005/10/328

    • http://twitter.com/JafafaHots Jafafa Hots

      Taking down one religion’s signs, when they are the ONLY religion’s signs on the wall, is choosing one religion over the other?

      Please tell me exactly which religion was chosen that way.
      Also please tell me how having ONE religion’s signs and that religion’s alone is NOT choosing that religion.

      You do NOT have the “freedom of religion” to impose your religion on others. Without the signs, NO religion is emphasized, no students are single in or singled out, everyone can follow their religion freely so long as they don’t force others to go along.

      Which of course is exactly why you complain – part of your religion is the requirement of forcing others to go along.

    • http://twitter.com/Renee_L_TenEyck lone objectivist

      in 1971 the Supreme Court established a legal precedent known as the Lemon Test. It was formulated by Chief Justice Warren Burger (a conservative appointed by Richard Nixon). It reads as follows:

      1. The government’s action must have a secular legislative purpose;

      2. The government’s action must not have the primary effect of either
      advancing or inhibiting religion;

      3. The government’s action must not result in an “excessive government
      entanglement” with religion.

  • charlene

    leave the signs alone ……….like it said in Alabama put your heart in Dixie or get you butt out .the other word for butt was used. sue take monies from our children you have a scam going .

    • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

      “get you butt out .the other word for butt was used”

      Wouldn’t it be easier to just write ‘ass’ in the first place?

      • http://twitter.com/JafafaHots Jafafa Hots

        The squiggly lines on the screen in the word “ass” are BAD squiggly lines, so we need to convey the same meaning with different squiggly lines.

        Same goes for air vibrations. You have to say “ass” using a different word, because vibrating air molecules the way you do when you verbalize “ass” is NAUGHTY.

    • Sue Blue

      Gee, “charlene” – judging from your writing skills, you could have used a little more education and a little less religion.

      Religion takes both money and brains away from our children.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Darlene-Johnson/100001250683034 Darlene Johnson

    Looks like the schools need to do a better job of teaching what our Constitution means. “Separation of church and state” is NOT in our Constitution. Actually, the First Amendment says “CONGRESS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” There is not one word in there that says “No one can be offended.” Why should one person be able to trample on the rights of the majority who are Christians? Our Founding Fathers attended church services in the same building where they discussed business. Our schools are already steeped in moral relativism, so how about some room for the other side? You know, tolerance for another world view? Our Constitution was written in a way that restricts tyrannical government. It represents freedoms and liberties for American citizens, not oppression just because someone has a different opinion. I would like Gage to explain what words of the Ten Commandments are so terrible that he couldn’t stand them. Also, Gage, tell me where the “right to not be offended” exists. I can’t find it. With all due respect, I humbly submit my post. Thank you for your attention to my questions, and God bless all.

    • Andrew Cooper

      “Separation of powers” isn’t a phrase that appears in the constitution; neither are “three branches”, “checks and balances”, “democracy”, “equality before the law”, or for that matter “restriction of tyrannical government”.

      Yet these principles–like “separation of church and state”–are clearly in the constitution. They are descriptions of the principles of the constitution.

      Speaking of tyrannical government–what could be more tyrannical for a government to do than to prescribe the religious beliefs of its citizens? Having an official religion is tyranny, full stop. That idea was recognised broadly (though not universally) by the Founders and the Framers.

      • DeeMill

        If the majority of the people are not offended by the displaying of the 10 Commandments, then it shouldn’t be left to one person (just because they are offended) to be able to have them taken down.

        • Andrew Cooper

          It’s not about totting up who’s “offended”.

          The government must remain neutral as regards religion–if the First Amendment doesn’t mean that, it doesn’t mean anything. Check out the writings of Jefferson and Madison (who, y’know, WROTE the First Amendment) on this matter.

    • DeeMill

      Well said. I totally agree.

  • DuRight

    Yet another example of tyranny of the minority, made worse by deliberate misreading of the execrable late SCOTUS Justice Hugo Black, a racist who hated Catholics with passion.

    The First Amendment says nothing about any freedom from religion, and Black’s bigotry is used to justify a tyranny far worse than any “threat” that kid felt by seeing the Ten Commandments on the wall. Are churches alongside the town streets soon to be considered “threats” to his youthful and natural agnosticism (what he calls atheism)? If not, why not?
    He’s now being praised by those using him as a tool for their agenda, which is replacing one religion- Judeo-Christianity- with another- atheism. The 20th Century proved how that works out- see the USSR and China. Young Gage can read a history book and see where his atheism takes humanity. It isn’t pretty.

    Being that you consider yourselves as courageous for hammering on peaceful, law-abiding citizens who want to do the right thing, perhaps you would consider taking up the infestation of Islam in America. Dearborn, Michigan is a great place to start.

    Warning: They won’t shy from trouble as small-town folk tend to do, so be prepared to have your skulls used for cricket practice. Perhaps young Gage would take that “courage” to Dearborn and put it to a real test.

    • http://twitter.com/Renee_L_TenEyck lone objectivist

      the constitution exists to protect the MINORITIES.

      The First Amendment says: “Congress shall make no law respecting an
      establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” Many
      religious people interpret this to mean that religion can and should be mixed
      with government, rather than separating the two.

      The expression “separation of church and state” was not invented
      by atheists and the ACLU. It was first used by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 in a
      letter to the Danbury Baptists who were suffering religious oppression (not
      from atheists, but from another Christian sect — the Congregationalists). The
      wording was “… that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an
      establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus
      building a wall of separation between Church & State.”

      What did the man who actually penned the First Amendment have to say about
      it? “The civil Government … performs its functions with complete
      success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood,
      and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total
      separation of the church from the State (Letter to Robert Walsh, March 2,
      1819)” — James Madison.

      In spite of the clarity expressed by these men on this issue, those wishing
      to impose their specific religion on the populace continued to wage war on the Constitution.
      As a result, in 1971 the Supreme Court established a legal precedent known as
      the Lemon Test. It was formulated by Chief Justice Warren Burger (a
      conservative appointed by Richard Nixon). It reads as follows:

      1. The government’s action must have a secular legislative purpose;

      2. The government’s action must not have the primary effect of either
      advancing or inhibiting religion;

      3. The government’s action must not result in an “excessive government
      entanglement” with religion.

      This seems to clearly separate the powers, but the war on religious freedom
      fought by the religious right wages on.

      The question I find most puzzling is why religion is so motivated to mix
      with government, when history shows that this only leads to harsh restrictions
      on religious freedoms. Rather hypocritically, the right wing will call for
      limitations on government powers and then call for government to mandate
      religion in public space.

      The free exercise of religion is in no danger from secularists; the danger
      to religious freedom has always come from religion itself. Revisionist factions
      that would establish their brand of religion as the correct one are well-funded
      and politically active in their efforts to overturn the First Amendment.

      Americans United for Separation of Church and State is an organization
      headed by a Christian minister, and here’s what he has to say:

      “When, in the history of the world, has a union of church and state
      ever been a good thing? Will you please name even one instance where such a
      combination improved the lot of the church and led to a real flowering of
      religious liberty for all?” — Barry Lynn

      Karl Schuch

      http://www.fredericknewspost.com/archive/article_eaf87118-0ace-5185-8f6b-e8d6c246d85c.html#user-comment-area

  • Daniel Walker

    Gage I’m sorry for people responding to you in the way they have, but you can expect people to feel passionately about this. I don’t quite understand the argument that you want to “create an environment where everyone feels equal.” Let’s take a look at the commandments that you claim make you feel unequal.

    1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
    3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
    4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

    You’re an atheist. You believe God doesn’t exist so these should be no more threatening to you than a passage from a well known piece of fiction. So instead of treating it as such you turn around and have this stripped off of the wall to make you feel like you are equal with the others around you. When what you’ve actually done is taken a tradition of others around you away from them and actually made everyone else feel unequal to you because of, according to you, a non threatening piece of fiction.

    5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land
    6. Thou shalt not kill
    7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
    8. Thou shalt not steal.
    9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
    10. Thou shalt not covet.

    The rest of these commandments for the most part are even followed or at least attempted to be followed even by atheists. Interestingly enough you mention your parents and them being an important piece to your decision making process. (See commandment 5) I assume that since you still attend school in freedom and you care about the safety of others, such as your friends, that you aren’t a murderer. (See commandment 6) I don’t know if you are sexually active, but since you are a teenage boy I would at least assume that you want to be. In today’s culture that would make you equal with your peers and even celebrated so I’m not sure how commandment 7 brings about an equality issue. May I ask if you are a thief? If so, then shame on you, but even THE LAW OF THE LAND, declares this illegal and EVERYONE knows that you shouldn’t steal. So again commandment 8 fails to bring about the sense of inequality. Commandment 9 simply states that people shouldn’t lie. Now unless you are a liar or unless you advocate people lying to you then this should be a common value that you share with your peers or at the very least a value that you break with your friends, because everyone lies Gage. So again with commandment 9, I fail to sense the inequality that these words on the wall bring to you. Commandment 10 deals with selfishness Gage. Since you clearly stood up for the protection of your friends then you are clearly not a selfish person Gage. So mark off commandment 10 as one you agree with even if you don’t believe in God.

    So in summation, you probably agree with 6 of the 10 commandments and 4 of the 10 are based on an imaginary figure whom you don’t believe in; so please tell me where the inequality is if you agree with your peers on 60 percent and the other 40 percent you don’t even acknowledge as being real?

    • Andrew Cooper

      So I presume you’d be totally okay with the school putting up an excerpt of the Qur’an that says “There is no God but God, and Muhammad is his prophet. Also don’t steal.”

      • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

        He could always look the other way…

      • Daniel Walker

        If I were born in a nation founded on Islam and the community that I grew up in believed in it, then I would probably be used to it. Would Gage’s story be different had he stood the way that he did in that culture?

        • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

          We are not a nation founded on the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments appear nowhere in our constitution.

          We are a majority Christian nation, but not a nation founded on Christianity.

          • Daniel Walker

            Okay okay. So TECHNICALLY we are not a nation founded on Christianity, but to deny the influence and guidance of Christianity in the founding of this country is like saying that chocolate is technically not candy…it’s a bean.

        • Andrew Cooper

          The same would obtain had Mr. Gage expressed his beliefs in, say, medieval France or Renaissance England, where it wasn’t all that difficult to get oneself hanged or burned (or both) for expressing heterodox religious opinions.

          I, for one, am glad to live in a more civilised place and time; and I recognise that part of what makes us so civilised is the formal separation of church and state.

          • Daniel Walker

            USSR: 61 million people murdered 1917-1987
            Communist China: 35.2 million people murdered 1949-present
            Mao’s army: 3.4 million people murdered 1923-1949
            Nazi Germany: 20 million people murdered 1932-1945
            Communist Poland: 1.6 million people murdered 1945-1948
            Communist Cambodia: 2 million people murdered 1975-1979
            Communist Vietnam: 1.6 million people murdered 1945-1975
            Communist Yugoslavia: 1 million people murdered 1944-1987
            Anti_Christian Mexican Revolution: 1.4 million people murdered 1900-1920
            Turkey: 1.8 million people murdered 1900-1918
            Pakistan: 1.5 million people murdered 1958-1987
            Japan: 5.9 million people murdered 1936-1945

            Don’t forget about these guys.

            • Andrew Cooper

              O HAI NON SEQUITUR

              • Daniel Walker

                You want to draw attention to atrocities committed by those nations who claimed to be Christians, so I drew from the lists of nations who are communist atheists. Sorry didn’t mean to actually include the last four. Thanks for pointing that out.

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  Relevance aside, Nazi Germany? “communist atheists”?

                  You sound like my history teacher who thought that Apartheid South Africa was communist.

                • Daniel Walker

                  Okay. My mistake While the Nazi’s were not communist and did allow a religious belief, I lumped them in because of Hitler’s strong belief in Darwin’s theories. Now that being said totally take them off the list and then we’re still left with roughly 100 million people killed by atheistic countries in the last 100 years.
                  My point is….both Christians and atheists have a dark past, but I can at least claim that had those “Christians” been acting according to the teachings of Christ then a lot of lives would have been saved. What can you say for Stalin or Mao? What law condemns them?

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  You’re still not getting your facts right.

                  Hitler was not a believer in Darwin’s theory of the origin of the species. He believed humans were created separately, by God. In that, he was a creationist.

                  He did believe in ‘Social Darwinism’, which wasn’t something Charles Darwin himself proposed.

                  And that has nothing to do with atheism. Hitler was not an atheist. Evolution has as much to do with atheism as the theory of gravity or atomic theory. They just are, whether or not any gods exist, or anyone believes in any gods.

                  What can you say for Stalin or Mao? What law condemns them?

                  You want to go there? Is Gandhi in Hell? Is Ted Bundy in Heaven? c’mon.

                  According to your theology, I will burn in hell, no matter what I do with my life, if I die without believing in the divinity of Jesus Christ. And any mass murder in Prison who believes in Jesus will be saved. Excuse me while I’m underwhelmed by that argument.

                  Stalin and Mao and Hitler are condemned by the collective evolved morality of humanity.

                • Daniel Walker

                  You talk of morality without a point of reference. If there is no God then there is no morality that is definitive whether it’s collective or not. If you want to talk about collective majority then we are right back to what started this discussion in the first place. If you want a point of reference for morality then there is accountability. If there is accountability then there will be a need for forgiveness whether it’s you, me, Ghandi, or Ted Bundy. If there is a need for forgiveness then where do you go and to whom do you answer? The collective majority? Do you trust men that much? That’s what Christianity is about, not condemnation; though you wouldn’t think so given the actions of some “christians”.

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  Note to self: save this because I’ve had to re-create this umpteen times…

                  First off you’re not addressing my point about how your fixed point morality would treat good-non-Christians or bad-Christians.

                  Here’s what I think happens:

                  We are a social species, and as such, empathy is an important trait, which we have evolved. Many other social species have also evolved empathy, which is why a dog will die for you without hesitation. Our notions of right and wrong have also evolved, although not in a biological sense. That’s why many of the rights/wrongs in the bible are viewed as abhorrent by 21st century standards.

                  And our morality is still evolving. Maybe future generations will wonder how it was that their ancestors could have kept chimps in cages, or hunted some species to extinction.

                  That you want some outside accountability doesn’t mean there is. And if there is, it doesn’t help us work things out, since even people who agree on exactly what book it is that tells us how to behave, can’t agree on exactly what that book is saying. So how we act is still a process of people agreeing on shared rules, and evolving those rules over time. Do I trust the collective majority of humankind? Yes, actually, I do. That’s why even you interpret the bible to fit your morality, not the other way round.

                  But I think your bigger point was forgiveness. You know what the one unforgivable sin is, right?

                • Daniel Walker

                  So what you are saying is that you are more highly evolved than me, because your social OPINIONS are more mainstream. The emotion or feeling that prompts us is not morality. Someone can feel the desire to help a friend in trouble, just as a dog. But when someone turns to run and not help what is it in you that makes us call that person a coward. The desire to help is nothing. There is something else outside of that FEELING that judges what you do with that feeling.

                  We can debate on different moral points and opinions in culture change, but truth stays the same. The truth is 98% of the world believes in God and 2% don’t. So the collective majority says you are wrong and yet you disagree. Either you claim to be more highly evolved than 98% of the world or your just incredibly arrogant. Judging by the way you choose to engage someone in debate, I’m going to assume the later of the two.

                  If you trust in the collective majority then change your mind.

                  Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. 1″Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come,” Matthew 12:31-32 I’m sure you will tell me something different.

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  So what you are saying is that you are more highly evolved than me, because your social OPINIONS are more mainstream.

                  Nope, not in the slightest. We probably agree on the vast majority of moral questions, and as to who is more evolved on the areas we differ only the future can tell.

                  There is something else outside of that FEELING that judges what you do with that feeling.

                  That’s your claim. I see no evidence of it. I see evidence of the desire for that outside judge. Coincidentally, whenever people describe that outside judge, it seems to coincide with their own beliefs about right and wrong. Honestly, is there anything you would disagree with God on, if not for God’s word on it? Or does God confirm your morality?

                  The truth is 98% of the world believes in God and 2% don’t. So the collective majority says you are wrong and yet you disagree. Either you claim to be more highly evolved than 98% of the world or your just incredibly arrogant. If you trust in the collective majority then change your mind.

                  You are conflating moral questions with truth questions.

                  Starting with moral: I didn’t do a very good job of ‘majority opinion’. I think the majority eventually arrives at moral positions, but it doesn’t start there. In biological terms, a new trait in a population starts in a single individual. A different answer in science starts with a single (or very small number) of individuals. A new moral outlook doesn’t start with a majority. It wasn’t a majority that woke up one day and decided slavery was wrong. But that was the position that eventually thrived as more and more people we convinced that it was correct.

                  I think as badly as people treat each other today, it’s better than it has been at any point in history. (See: Steven Pinker, “Better Angles of our Nature”)

                  On to truth: 2% is a low estimate and it depends on how you measure, but your point is that it’s a minority, and you’re right. A vast majority of the humans on the planet believe in some kind of god or gods. But don’t forget that a majority also believe in a substantially different theology than you do. If Muslims ever exceed Christians, it won’t suddenly make Muhammad’s winged horse true. And the majority of the planet not believing that Jesus is the son of God doesn’t in and of itself make you wrong.

                  Back to morality, was it moral to own people 3000 years ago? People then would say it was. We, today, looking back, say no.

                  I have no problem with the existence an absolute fixed morality. All I’m saying is that there’s probably no god to judge it, and even if there is, we have no way of really knowing that god’s judgement anyway. All we can do is try to figure out what’s right and do our best towards it. And pay attention to new radical minority ideas. They may be the ‘slavery is wrong’ of the next generation.

                  Matthew 12:31-32 I’m sure you will tell me something different.

                  Nope, that’s the “unforgivable sin” I was looking for. I know we’re not supposed to judge God on our own standards, but I would never want anyone burn forever for anything. I’d want them to be prevented from hurting other people, but burn forever? For denying God? Shouldn’t God be better than that? That seems so petty, and dare I say, human?

                  Like I said, I don’t believe in any gods, and certainly not that god, but it disturbs me that people actually respect that that is the absolutely worst thing a person can do.

                • Daniel Walker

                  First let me say that I appreciate the tone in which you just stated all of that. It’s not often people can debate such passionate issues without of lot of mud slinging. Sharing the truth of your opinions with those of opposing views can get heated and I can respect and listen to anyone who is reasonable.

                  I will leave with this. I don’t try to bend God to meet my moral standards. In fact, I’ve been corrected by God more than I’ve been right by Him. You are very right not to accept anyone who does not allow God to shape them to fit the truth. The question is, as Pontious Pilate put it, “What is truth?” Christians have done a very poor job of teaching how to reason within our faith for a loooong time and we are reaping what we’ve sewn for it. We have both put our faith into the things that we’ve experienced, and learned, and seen. We’ve led different lives and had different experiences, but what we both live by requires faith from both of us. You have to have a certain amount of faith in the statement “there is no God”, because you cannot be any more certain of that than I can that there is a God. I just look at the life of one man that is historically proven to have lived and that is Jesus. Former atheist C.S. Lewis wrote, “”I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. … Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God.”

                  I made my choice. You’ve made yours. But I would be an even worse person to believe that a place like hell exists and never say anything to anyone just so that I didn’t offend their beliefs. I have enjoyed the debate. May God bless you on your quest for truth.

                • Andrew Cooper

                  Your talking points are getting in the way of your reading comprehension. I was not trying to tot up total atrocities by the religious beliefs of the perpetrator. (If I were trying to do that I’d have said so.)

                  All I said was I am proud and happy to live in a society where one can speak out against the majority. I’d rather live here and now (in the present-day US) than live in Henry VIII’s England or Torquemada’s Spain or today’s Saudi Arabia. I also prefer living here and now to living in Mao’s China or Communist Poland. And the fact that the US Constitution, as it has been interpreted for the past decades, promotes strict government neutrality to religion is a big part of that. Communist China was not, in fact, neutral toward religion. I don’t know why you’d bring it up.

                  (But–FYI–Nazi Germany was in no sense an atheist regime.)

                • Daniel Walker

                  Well in that sense I agree with you. I don’t look to split hairs with you. And may I say that the people that come here and blame atheists for the problems of the world are ridiculous. Check that numbers people!! They represent 2% of the WORLD’S population!!!!!!! If you want to debate them philosophically then go ahead, but don’t blame them for abortion, murder, crime. etc… We have every bit as much to do with that and more than they do. Take a look inside your own hearts and check to see if the ten commandments are hanging there first!!

            • DeeMill

              Yeah, and don’t forget about the >60 million babies we’ve murdered in the U.S. through abortions since Roe v Wade.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Darlene-Johnson/100001250683034 Darlene Johnson

            The world will not be truly civilized until the evil is banished from it. The left has forced its agenda (same sex marriage and abortion) for several decades now, and all that seems to happen is we get a society of millions of children being raised by a single parent. What has legalized abortion done? It has taught too many people that human life is disposable at will.

            • Andrew Cooper

              Which is more evil: absence of the Ten Commandments, or enforcing religious beliefs at gun-/sword-/noose-point?

    • DeeMill

      Amein

  • Jax

    all of this from a boy who describes himself as a “bodyguard @ ministry of magic” claiming to have studied at hogwarts school of witchcraft and wizardry. he’s obviously a genius.

  • Jax

    you guys are sick

  • NoJusticeNoPeace

    “If other kids don’t want to read the Ten Commandments, then they don’t have to,” she said. “But that doesn’t mean that they have to make everyone else do what they want.”, said the ignorant Christard.

    SO LOGIC FOLLOWS THAT SHE SHOULD JUST CAST HER EYES AWAY FROM A PORTRAIT OF CHRIST GETTING BALLED BY MARY MAGDELAN HANGING IN THE FRONT HALL OF THE SAME SCHOOL.

    Got it. Carry on.

    • Daniel Walker

      You’re really gonna compare the ten commandments to a picture of that? Wow.

  • http://twitter.com/Renee_L_TenEyck lone objectivist

    if we’re going to have the commandments posted, perhaps we should have passages from Islam, Buddhism, Native American spiritualities, and the flying spaghetti monster posted also.

    “Coming from a fairly traditional Southern upbringing, I was not at all
    initially surprised when a voice came over the PA and asked everyone to
    rise for the invocation. I had been through this same ritual at many
    other high-school events and thought nothing of it, so to our feet my
    wife and I stood, bowed our heads, and prepared to partake of the
    prayer. But to our extreme dismay, the clergyman who took the microphone
    and began to pray was not a Protestant minister or a Catholic priest,
    but a Buddhist priest who proceeded to offer up prayers and intonations
    to god-head figures that our tradition held to be pagan.”
    http://www.wnd.com/2005/10/32839/

  • http://www.facebook.com/mike.banker.92 Mary Jayne Nason

    I’m sure other students don’t like having to look at his homely face but they have no choice. Am I speaking a language they understand now? This was only done because he wants attention. Probably should watch this, he could be a school shooter in the making.

    • onamission5

      Well aren’t you just precious.

  • http://www.facebook.com/wolf.wylde Wolf Wylde

    I wonder why an atheist who claims to be intellectually advanced can then claim that some silly little piece of board can make them feel unequal? Do they not have any security in themselves and their own beliefs? Its a paradoxical statement . . if they are secure in being human with no religious views and claiming a a strength and surety not given by external belief, than they should have no problem, no issue and no hesitation in allowing other people their entire belief range without censure.

    • onamission5

      It is government endorsement of a specific religion in direct opposition to the US constitution. This should worry everyone. Not just atheists, not just non Christian religious folks, but you, too. That freedom of religion you enjoy can be yanked away in a heartbeat if your fellow Christians decide you practice the wrong kind of Christianity and they happen to be in the majority. That this does not concern you is, frankly, concerning.

      • Rich Algeni

        How is ‘Thou shalt not steal’ a government endorsement of a specific religion? Your logic is terribly flawed.

        • onamission5

          How is posting of the Christian ten commandments– and no other materials or edicts from other religions– in public school classrooms *not* government endorsement of a specific religion?

  • Chris Drumm

    Pretty sure someone even on this site has covered this. I agree with the pastor and I see the young man’s point-but not getting what we want is part of growing up-first of all-secondly-freedom from religion is a group not a right. Separation of church and state has been up held in the courts, but incorrectly for many years-taken out of context from a Thomas Jefferson letter. The Christians are not the bullies in this “story”-these folks have been attacked by a group who has “influence” and are “outsiders”. As Jay Carney might say- I appreciate that this young man may not like or believe that things are ordered in the way he believes or thinks but that is the way of the world. Does Buddhism offend me just because I do not believe in the wheel? Absolutely not. Even as a secular Humanist or Atheist- most of the commandments are pretty much either common sense or converted to every day laws anyway- so does this mean that the young man is an Anarchist also? No wonder with drivel like this passing as journalism people think there is a war on Christianity.

    • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

      You’re right. It has been covered.

      most of the commandments are pretty much either common sense or converted to every day laws anyway

      Especially that part.

  • http://www.facebook.com/carla.kellerwalker Carla Keller Walker

    I want to know if you bothered to ask the administration about the plaques being removed BEFORE you contacted FFRF???? If you did and they ignored you then ok.. but if you didnt and went straight to FFRF, then I say you did this for the attention .. if thats the case, shame on you!

  • Lilu Kanine

    Lets make a hero out of little Gage, the boy who got lots of attention, and in his quest to get the 10 commandments off the wall, succeeded in alienating most of his schoolmates, that he clearly had absolutely no concern for, whatsoever. Repulsive!

  • http://www.facebook.com/S2CandHC1 Neil A. Parker

    There is nothing friendly about you people. You are the epitome of selfishness, of course I don’t blame you since that is what would be expected from people who choose not to believe in God for the very purpose there might be a rule imposed upon them. After all that is what this is about, me me me!!

  • cheerchick

    I may not be a Christian, but I do believe the 10 comandments should stay. Like it said, if they don’t believe in them or like them, don’t read it. Simple as that.

    • Derrik Pates

      I’m sure you’d feel the same way if it was excerpts from the Vedas instead of the 10 Commandments, right?

  • Adam Montague

    Good job man. You are the prime example of what not only a Christian should be, but a human in general. Open minded and considerate of everybody.

  • Sean Sherman

    “I can’t tip enough hats to him. I hope his bravery sets an example for other students who witness this kind of blatant disregard for church/state separation. Let them learn from Gage and build up the courage to do what’s right even when it’s unpopular to do so.”
    Yes.

  • http://www.facebook.com/james.graham.1232 James Graham

    It’s funny, Christianity supposedly teaches love, kindness, and acceptance. Though as soon as something like this occurs, all gloves are off and the Christians turn in to violent, cruel non-Christian-like bullies. It’s typical that religious people (parents and whatnot) tend to teach (or otherwise allow) their kids to behave like this, as Christian adults tend to behave this was as well. Christianity has gotten itself so completely out of control these days, the cannot even control themselves. They are no better than those religious zealots in other countries who punish the non-believers. If it ever came down to it, I’m sure they themselves would draw blood, and possibly take lives, in the name of their religion if their beliefs were backed into a corner. This has got to be stopped. Religion needs to be pushed back in to it’s place and kept under control. And I applaud Gage for taking it upon himself to have a backbone and stand up for this small part of a nation-wide epidemic that is religious intolerance and law-breaking.
    Keep up the great work. You are a symbol of justice and equality, and a true American.


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