Pseudo-Historian David Barton: ‘Atheists Get Angry Because They Do Know That God Exists’

Right Wing Watch’s Kyle Mantyla reports on a conversation Ray Comfort had on pseudo-historian David Barton‘s radio show … in which Barton claims “atheists get angry because they do know that God exists” and wonders why atheists get upset when evolution is challenged since he never gets upset when people claim Bigfoot is real:

You challenge what they believe about evolution and they get angry. And you ask them questions they can’t answer about their own belief, they get angry. And I was thinking too, you know, they do that in so many areas, including faith areas.

Why is it that atheists get mad? If they don’t believe in God, then why do they care if we do. And yet they go out there, working so hard and they’re so angry to shut down every expression. There’s groups that I don’t agree with and I don’t believe with, but I’m not angry at them and I’m not looking to shut down their existence.

I dare you to listen to that clip without seething with rage. Thankfully, though, Mantyla offers up the obvious response to Barton:

it should be noted that believers in UFOs and Bigfoot don’t have powerful, like-minded allies in Congress, nor do they have dozens of influential political organizations all operating with the goal of forcing the existence of Bigfoot and E.T. to be taught in public schools as fact and generally working to ensure that such beliefs form the basis of this nation’s public policy.

That’s it. Those who think UFOs and Bigfoot are real aren’t trying to push those views into public schools. If they did, we’d have to fight back. Creationism is just as much of a hoax, so the fight continues.

There’s good reason for us to be angry about it — we care too much about the education kids receive.

About Hemant Mehta

Hemant Mehta is the editor of Friendly Atheist, appears on the Atheist Voice channel on YouTube, and co-hosts the uniquely-named Friendly Atheist Podcast. You can read much more about him here.

  • http://www.holytape.etsy.com Holytape

    You can add the intellect of Comfort and Barton together and still come up with only a half of a banana. Mind you, it would be a very dishonest half-banana making up quotes from the founding fathers about why you are not a good person.

  • Frank

    When we are secure in our beliefs we do not get upset, ugly or offended when they are challenged.

  • baal

    Barton implies that atheists are trying to shut down the existence of christians.
    Only problem is that he seems to say its the churches when in fact it’s the christian iconography on governmental places.

  • baal

    When dishonest folks suggest we’re suing to close churches instead of getting the christian iconography (idols?)10 commandments off the courthouse steps, we do get angry. Not at god or religion per se but at flouting of law (aka crimes) and the lies in support of that crime.

  • Frank

    I guess you are not as secure as you think.

  • TheAtheistGeek

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think any Bigfoot believer has ever killed an abortion doctor in the name of Bigfoot.

  • eric

    In addition to the social policy stuff, I don’t have bigfoot believers telling me I’m immoral and evil for not believing in bigfoot. That’s kinda insulting and likely to provoke a bit of anger, even if you aren’t pushing a pro-bigfoot social policy.

  • trj

    We get upset, and with good reason, when the challenger makes use of underhanded insults, strawmen, and straight-out lies, as people like David Barton and Ray Comfort are wont to do.

  • http://friendlyatheist.com Richard Wade

    Actually, I’m angry because I have a large amount of plausible evidence that DAVID BARTON exists.

  • Frank

    And only a few self proclaimed Christians have done so. A direct anathema to their so called faith.

  • Frank

    Well I have seen just as many strawmen, insults and lies coming from atheists as well. I see them as they are. They don’t make me angry though.

  • icecreamassassin

    “And you ask them questions they can’t answer about their own belief, they get angry.”

    Talk about projection…

  • Frazzah

    Feel free to share at least one such strawman.

  • http://www.holytape.etsy.com Holytape

    The only time, I get annoyed (not offended) is when someone says something that is so monumentally stupid and ignorant that he or she lowers the collective I.Q. of our species by a point or two, then struts around like a cock-of-the-rock as if they had just made some never-thought-of-before, brilliant rebuttal.

    Barton and Comfort are annoying because they are deliberately misleading, willfully ignorant, and practically brain dead, and yet they keep saying the same things over and over and over.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/ Kevin_Of_Bangor

    ….

  • Frank

    So then its ok if I get angry with the people here? You see it works both ways. I don’t get angry with the people here because there is nothing that can be said to me to make me deny the existence of God. There is no real challenge to my faith here.

  • http://www.holytape.etsy.com Holytape

    Aren’t all Christians ‘self-proclaimed’?

  • Matt D

    Have you? Which “strawmen, insults, and lies” have you see from Atheists? Name any of them, and we’ll see about getting that corrected.

  • Frank

    Good grief they are constructed here with every post.

  • Frank

    Really? There are no insults here? No lies?

    I guess you must like living in a fantasy world.

  • Frank

    Yes and no. Not everyone who claims to be Christian is.

  • http://friendlyatheist.com Richard Wade

    I get upset or offended when somebody pretends that they know what I think, or believe, or feel, or do, rather than having the intelligence, courtesy, honesty, and courage to ask me what I think, or believe, or feel, or do, and then from this pretense of omniscience, they proceed to tell anyone who is gullible enough to listen to them at all some idiotic and defamatory statement about me.

  • icecreamassassin

    Could you give some hints as to how to tell the difference?

  • Frank

    Why? People make assumptions about other people daily. So do you. Only when we are insecure does assumptions bother us.

  • Frank

    Sure but I will have to quote scripture. If that’s ok I will.

  • Beth

    Using his line of thinking: why does he care if we don’t believe?

  • Tainda

    Then feel free to go away.

    I don’t go troll your blogs so why come here? Oh that’s right, you people push your beliefs on others. Nevermind, carry on.

  • http://www.holytape.etsy.com Holytape

    Depends, if any commenter here uses the same argument over and over again, after it has been shown to be factually incorrect, (see Comfort’s “Male evolving separately from female” argument or “Creation implies a creator”, or Crocoduck or Barton’s ‘Aitken bible’ lies, or his Jefferson lies, or his quote mining of an Adams letter, or his fake Washington quotes, or basically everything he has ever said or written), then maybe you should get angry.

    Also, if you come here to debate and then say ‘nothing that can be said to me to make me deny the existence of God’, you are not really debating. You’re yelling.

    I suppose theoretically there could be evidence that would lead me to believe in a god. So far, all the evidence that has been presented isn’t convincing to say the least.

  • icecreamassassin

    Go for it.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Not agreeing with you does not mean that someone is constructing a strawman, Frank.

  • Tainda

    I HONESTLY do not give a shit what people believe in just keep out of my business with it!

  • Tainda

    And for the uninformed, my business includes the US government.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Then please go away. Nobody wants you here anyway. All you do is make people wish Disqus had an ignore function.

    You refuse to engage in any sort of conversation that would actually get anywhere. All you do is sit there with your fingers in your ears insisting that you’re right, we’re all wrong and you’re superior.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Yes. We get it. You know everything, and are here to tell us exactly what we think and why.

    Please shut up already.

  • Matt D

    Looks like your getting angry there Frank. I like living in a world where evidence is more important than heresay, so again, please cite any evidence you have that Atheists use “strawmen, insults, and lies”.

  • tyler

    i wonder would you be angry or otherwise offended if your senator pushed through a bill that made public school students start the day by standing up and declaring “there is no god?” (it’s okay though because they’re not forced to do it, of course, just encouraged to do so by heavy social pressures)

    what about if your local public school decided that chemistry was bogus, and started teaching proper witchcraft and alchemy instead?

    would you be displeased if more than half of the population of your home country believed that because of your belief in god you are necessarily a bundle of moral depravity, just biding your time for the right moment to pull out a gun and start a massacre?

    would you be upset, angry, or offended, if somebody told you that the reason you are upset, angry, or offended, the only reason you possibly could be upset, angry, or offended, is because you are insecure, and certainly not because there is a very real problem with mandating school anti-prayer, teaching bogus science, and stereotyping believers?

    you’re not very good at empathy, are you?

  • Frank

    “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” (John 1:12).

    “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved” (Ephesians 2:1-5).

    “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Ephesians 2:8–9)

    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control…” (Galatians 5:22,23)

    There’s more but you get the idea.

  • Frank

    Why are you angry?

  • newavocation

    I’ve always had a problem with FRAUD! Taking advantage of simple minded individuals. Scaring children and treating women and gays like second class citizens.

  • Frank

    No I would not be angry. Sad but not angry.

    What does empathy have to do with certainty of belief? I have tremendous empathy for those that reject God but I am not angry.

  • Frank

    ho is angry? Not me. I think you may be projecting.

  • Frank

    I didn’t say that. Why do you need to make things up?

  • Matt D

    Why am I still waiting for you to prove you aren’t lying, Frank?

  • skinnercitycyclist

    All of which cites have been quoted by Westboro Baptist Church. So they are True Christians™?

  • Frank

    Why are you so angry?

  • Frank

    Anybody can quote scripture. The proof is in how a life is lived. WBC are not living a Christian life.

  • Frank

    I don’t need to prove anything. Why do you feel the need to prove something?

  • baal

    The right has absconded with all the projection machines and broken everyone’s irony meters. Soon we won’t have any straw left for feeding cattle since it’s used by the right to make armies of strawmen.

  • WallofSleep

    Yeah, I couldn’t possibly count the number of times I’ve been absolutely infuriated by the knowledge that invisible, pink unicorns exist. It makes me livid, I tell ya.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

    I’m certain Fred Phelps would disagree with you, and he knows the bible pretty well. So by what authority do you claim that he is not a Christian and you (I presume you’d make the claim) are?

    Having a way to tell the real Christians from the pretenders isn’t useful if it can’t be used. Since my assessment isn’t the same as yours, I’m left with just trusting you to tell me who all the true Christians are. But how do I know to trust you and not Fred Phelps?

    You see how problematic that is?

  • baal

    And yet other christians aided and abetted eric rudolph.

  • eric

    So are you saying that only loving, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, and self-controlled christians are real christians?

    That eliminates a lot of sinners. In fact it eleminates a giant chunk of traditional Christian theology, which is generally taken to say that all sinners, ALL sinners, can be saved if they accept Christ. Right?

    Its kinda funny how you are trying to argue against self-proclaimed Christians all being Christians by quoting a bit of scripture that says “it is the gift of God, not a result of works.” You seem to be judging their Christian-ness by their works.

  • Michael David Barber Moghul

    Certainty of belief is an oxymoron.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

    Is there something wrong with being angry?

  • WallofSleep

    Do be sure to inform the professional, millionaire god-bothers of that. They don’t seem to be following your program very well.

  • http://friendlyatheist.com Richard Wade

    Since I don’t pretend to know from afar the thoughts, feelings, and innermost motives of others’ minds, I have to ask you if you are asserting that you know my mind better than I know it myself, or if you’re just playing amateur psychic psychoanalyst.

    The issue surrounding Barton’s asinine remark isn’t about “insecurity” about one’s beliefs, as you keep trying to frame it. The issue is about someone telling lies about a large group of people and pretending that he knows what he’s talking about. Anger or upset about real world mistreatment such as slander and bigoted defamation is not about “insecurity.” It’s a part of fighting back. The idiotic and ugly stereotypes about atheists such as Barton’s classic one here do serious harm to people, and fighting back is legitimate. If you were fighting back against unfair and preposterous slander or mistreatment against you, I would not be so presumptuous to suggest that that somehow indicates that you are “insecure in your beliefs.” That would be absurd. There’s no connection.

  • Michael David Barber Moghul

    Frankly, Frank. You’re just another religitard asshole with nothing to add to any conversation here, so just GTFO already.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

    “Good grief”? Wasn’t that just a hint of anger there?

  • Donatello

    David Barton’s existence could be seen as evidence that Jahwe doesn’t exist because if he did exist, were almighty and actually cared about his commandments Barton would have dropped dead a long time ago.

  • Frank

    No problem at all. When you look at what Fred Phelps says and does do you see Christ? Do you see love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control?

    Even Jesus said:

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” (Matthew 7:21-23)

  • Spuddie

    Atheists get angry when they come to the realization that there are enough stupid people to keep David Barton employed.

  • Matt D

    Why am I still waiting for you to prove you aren’t lying, Frank?

  • Frank

    So there are no insults here? Right.

    Why are you so angry?

  • Spuddie

    Global warming is caused by CO2 emitted from constant burning of strawmen.

  • baal

    I think I did get a little upset when the pink unicornist football coach rounded up the team and had them go on about lovely and pink and invisible the unicorn is. A student lead the exercise but these student led horn love sessions never happen with the other less ungulate infatuated coach.

  • Frank

    Not always.

  • Spuddie

    But all people who have done so are self-proclaimed Christians.

  • David Kopp

    Employed as anything other than a fry cook. Everyone’s useful for something ;) How’s that quote go, some people are like Slinky’s?

  • Frank

    Not to me.

  • Frank

    I don’t need to prove anything. Why do you feel the need to prove something?

  • Matt D

    Oh? Then why are you on an Atheist blog, if your certain?

  • Frank

    No. Charlie Brown said it all the time but he was never angry.

  • RobMcCune

    Odd since you constantly cite the number of self proclaimed christians. I suppose the only true christians are the ones that suit your argument.

  • Spuddie

    If it makes you feel any better nobody assumes you are an intelligent person with something worth saying.

    You have not challenged those assumptions yet.

  • Frank

    Because you need God whether you realize it or not. Because your position is a foolish one whether you realize it or not. Because God loves you too much to let you stay where you are.

  • eric

    So, just so I understand, you think that it isn’t the sects constructing big stone plinths with their religious commandments on them on public land who are insecure. You think its the guys asking them to stop doing this illegal behavior that are insecure. Is that correct?
    Has it occurred to you that advertising your religious beliefs on a big public display and trying to imply that the power of the state supports you is a form of insecurity?.

  • Frank

    Ah yes insults. Thankls for proving my point so wonderfully.

  • Matt D

    Ditto.

  • WallofSleep

    “How’s that quote go, some people are like Slinky’s?”

    In that they often get tangled around your legs, and you need to use a pair of tin-snips to get free?

  • Frank

    Not at all. Faith produces good works. Faith without works is dead. You know a tree by its fruit.

  • RobMcCune

    That seems like an assumption on your part.

  • baal

    Weird, for a good 10 minutes there the Matt D posts were all Franks.

    I’m dying for a Disqus IP log and times log for your posts vs them trolls.

  • Spuddie

    What point? You don’t have one.

    All I see is poo being flung and trolling.

  • RobMcCune

    If you don’t need to prove anything, then why are you constantly trying?

  • Frank

    Thanks for supporting my point.

  • Michael Harrison

    You made a claim; the burden of proof is on you to supply evidence.

  • tyler

    then, seeing as you have no problem with it, i think i shall get right on promoting that anti-prayer law. you are saying you won’t contest it if it becomes law, yes? sad people aren’t activists, after all. sad people merely watch with disappointed looks on their faces. if they did anything else, they would be angry people, which you are not.

    empathy has nothing to do with belief. it has to do with you as an individual. you are (apparently) incapable of experiencing very human emotions and reactions such as, but not limited to, indignation, righteous anger, and passion in general. you are therefore incapable of affecting any real change, because your dispassionate milquetoast ideals could never ignite a revolution. you lose your identity as an active player and become a mere passive roadblock to progress. as a result, you lose all ability to relate to your fellow human beings, and being incapable of imagining what could motivate one to action, you instead ascribe motivations with grounding not in reality but in misguided stereotypes fed to you by the society you are content to have no part in shaping.

    i am an angry, passionate person, but to be honest looking at your comments i’m mostly just sad.

  • RobMcCune

    You’re assuming I proved your point, your assumption is wrong. Also assuming things proves my point :P

  • Frank

    I cant speak for them and whether their motivations are based in insecurity or not but sharing our faith is an integral part of our faith so wanting our faith in the public square does not come form insecurity. It comes from integrity of faith.

  • Frank

    Contesting something which you feel is wrong does not equate to anger.

    But to answer your question, no I would not protest.

  • Frank

    Which of course is my point: everyone makes assumptions.

    Thanks!

  • RobMcCune

    Yes, mostly by Frank.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

    ok, but when I read all the stuff you post, I don’t see Christ either. I see some of the attributes that you have selectively applied to Christ, mostly the ‘self control’, not so much the ‘kindness’.

    But what do I do when Fred Phelps quotes a bunch of different scripture? You know he can.

    Mathew 7 could equally be used by Fred Phelps to prove that you are not a Christian.

    And BTW, you’ve also described a lot of Hindus. Was Mohandis Gandhi really a Christian?

  • phantomreader42

    Because he knows that god is nothing more than a figment of his imagination and his entire life in founded on lies.

  • tyler

    oh right, while we’re on it, is there a reason you seem to believe anger is to be held in such low esteem?

    i suppose jesus was just insecure whenever he flipped tables and cursed fruit trees. hm~

  • RobMcCune

    Really then why didn’t you just say that in the first place? Seems you don’t feel too sure about assuming insecurities in others, otherwise you wouldn’t have backed down.

  • Glasofruix

    Your integrity of faith seems to be illegal most of the time.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

    You’re here because you know God doesn’t exist. But that scares you, so coming here and exercising your conviction that if you pretend to believe that God exists enough, eventually you really will believe.

    It’s not enough for you to believe. If it was, you’d just believe and leave everyone else alone. But since you don’t really believe, you are compelled to come here and tell us that God exists, over and over again.

  • islandbrewer

    Actually, I can tell a tree by it’s leaves. Or a genetic analysis. Fruit actually isn’t always the best indicia of tree type.

  • Glasofruix

    Contesting something which you feel is wrong does not equate to anger.

    Our point exactly.

  • Matt D

    Nah. I don’t need “God” anymore than I need the “Gods” of all the other religions out there.

  • Frank

    No he was not and yes we all struggle with sin and selfishness which work against the fruit of God. Its one thing to have flaws its another to be someone like Fred Phelps. I see no redeeming qualities in him. You may want to defend him to make your point but I don’t see Jesus in Him in any way, shape or form.

    And a comment board is so limiting and a very inferior way to communicate.

  • Frank

    I made a general statement. I am secure in that statement.

  • WallofSleep

    “Because God loves you too much to let you stay where you are.”

    Unless you’re a disease riddled, starving little brown kid in some foreign country, in which case you can fuck right off as far as god is concerned.

  • phantomreader42

    When I look at what Fred Phelps says and does, I see an arrogant, bigoted asshole.
    When I look at what you say and do, I see an arrogant, bigoted asshole.
    If all christianity does is make christians arrogant, bigoted assholes, what good is it?

  • Frank

    I don’t question people desire to contest something. When anger comes in however it is very telling.

  • Glasofruix

    You silly, that’s because skyfairy gave the freedom of choice to the starving kid and he chose to die of hunger.

  • Frank

    We see through a glass darkly.

  • Glasofruix

    I think you forgot your usual frank costume.

  • RobMcCune

    But not in this one:

    Only when we are insecure does assumptions bother us.

    The mystery of Frank’s disappearing point.

  • Frank

    Why does that make you angry and insulting?

  • phantomreader42

    Perhaps because you are lying. Isn’t that imaginary god of yours supposed to have some sort of problem with bearing false witness, Frank? Not to mention sorcery, like your pretending to be able to read people’s minds.

  • Matt D

    Yeah, I’ve been *there* before, but I’m not sure why that happens (I’ve seen it happen to others). Mabye because I’m unregistered and using my work computer?

  • Frank

    Gods laws trump everything.

  • baal

    If god/jesus has one billionith the power ascribed to him, he really ought to do something. He never does, Matt D.

  • Frank

    No. Sharing our faith is a command from Jesus.

  • phantomreader42

    You can’t see anything with your head so far up your ass.

  • Frank

    He displays His power daily.

  • baal

    At the time of my reply, it’s a Matt D. I’m testing to see that it flips to being “Frank” in a few minutes when the next update is pushed.

  • phantomreader42

    Your hallucinations do not count as miracles. You’re just a delusional fanatic.

  • Glasofruix

    Which would be relevant if he had, you know, an existence.

  • Frank

    Its a Disqus bug and its frustrating.

  • WallofSleep

    Insulting? The idea that we have an interventionist type deity that chooses to intervene in politics and sports, but not when people suffer by the millions, that is insulting.

  • baal

    I think it’s because you have a pathological mentality and play religo-troll sock puppet for kicks personally.

  • Glasofruix

    Evidence required.

  • RobMcCune

    That’s the blinders of your religion, take them off, it get’s clearer.

  • baal

    If it happened to others more and you less, I’d find that argument compelling. Maybe ‘Frank’ is in your house right now using your internets?

  • phantomreader42

    Jesus supposedly commanded you to do a lot of things, like give away all you own and love your neighbor. But you only bother to follow the one that gives you an excuse to be an annoying asshat. You don’t really give a flying fuck about jesus, you just like being an annoying asshat.

  • David Kopp

    That, and generally useless but fun to watch them go down a flight of stairs ;)

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

    Does that include needling people until they get frustrated and tell you to go away, and then asking why they’re angry?

    I don’t recall that quotation in the Bible.

    No, you don’t really believe yourself, so like the closeted gay person who is ashamed of themselves, you must constantly proclaim your absolute unshakable belief in God.

  • Glasofruix

    He also said not to display your dic… religiousness in public, i don’t see you following this one…

  • Frank

    Why do need to make assumptions about something you know nothing about?

  • Frank

    He did not say that. It was about the motivations of praying in public not that we cannot pray in public.

  • Glasofruix

    Seems to be the same shit to me.

  • Canadian Atheist, eh!

    Why can’t you ask yourself that same question?

  • Frank

    Its clear you don’t understand certain aspects of Christian theology.

  • phantomreader42

    So, Frank, how long do you think it’ll be before you finally hear the voice of your imaginary god in your head, telling you the day you’ve been awaiting has arrived, and you can go slaughter the infidels and bathe in their blood? Gods laws trump everything, even when they order you to rape, kill, and eat your own children, right, Frank?

  • WallofSleep

    “Pseudo-Historian David Barton”

    If that right there is not proof positive that Hemant is indeed friendly, I don’t know what is. Calling Barton a “Pseudo-Historian” is about the most generous, kind, and benevolent thing you could call him.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

    Hey, it’s ok Frank. Many of us were in the same boat, desperately witnessing, trying to drive away our own doubts.

    (Not me actually, but many others on here)

  • Frank

    It’s not. The condition of the heart is everything.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

    Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

  • WallofSleep

    And how many years must I devote to the study of “Mother Goose and Grimm” before I am allowed to conclude that “Goldilocks and the Three Bears” is a fairy tale?

  • Glasofruix

    I cannot see the need to pray in public as anything other than an attempt to display some kind of superiority, same for the meaningless monuments.

  • Fred

    If atheists knew that god existed, we’d show our evidence.

  • baal

    If atheists knew god existed, they wouldn’t be atheists. Try harder Matt.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

    Careful, frustration is a gateway emotion :-)

  • phantomreader42

    I don’t recall ever seeing Hemant use the proper title for The Liar Tony Perkins.

  • RobMcCune

    But it’s a display of superiority that comes from the heart

    </sarcasm>

  • Oranje

    I don’t know how Kyle stays sane. Tip of the cap to him.

  • Matt D

    Uh, which post of mine are you responding too?

  • WallofSleep

    I think Fred’s point is that, being the evidence-based people that we are, if we ‘knew’ that god existed, as Barton asserts, we would both have and present the testable evidence to support that “fact”. Something which the devout have never been capable of, for obvious reasons.

    Of course, I could be reading him wrong.

  • Fred

    Who the frick is Matt?

  • baal

    You can click the replier name to see the replied to comment. I’ve seen Matt D change to Frank and Franks change to Matt D today. This is the 3rd day in 2 months where you and a troll play musical nyms. I conclude you’re the same person and this is not a Disqus bug (or if there is a bug it’s a timing thing on how disqus updates on log in/out and not a bug on how it lines up nyms to posts). Other nyms aren’t getting swapped to the trolls and especially not on multiple days.

  • Fred

    YEP.
    I didn’t think it would be that hard to figure out where I was coming from. Thought wrong I suppose.

  • phantomreader42

    I have never had a person tell me they had received orders from Bigfoot to murder me. I HAVE had people tell me they had received such orders from the christian god.

  • baal

    Matt D’s troll nym of the day is Frank (and fred?). The OP can be read in two ways, the one you suggest and the one I suggested. He’s very good at using language badly like that. It’s part of being a good troll.

  • WallofSleep

    Hit the refresh button. I am seeing his nic as “Fred”.

  • Canadian Atheist, eh!

    Yeah, and no one tells my children they’re going to burn for eternity if they don’t accept Bigfoot as their “saviour.” No one blames hurricanes and disease on lack of faith in Bigfoot. I could go on.

  • WallofSleep

    Don’t be too hard on Baal, I’m betting it’s a simple misunderstanding. There’s some kind of bug in the comment system that sometimes shows the wrong nic for a comment. Hitting refresh fixes that, temporarily.

  • Matt D

    Well, if that’s the conclusion you’ve reached despite my protests, I don’t know how to convince you otherwise.

  • That’s Not Yogurt

    I’m secure in my beliefs. I’m just tired of having whiny Jesus goons get in my face with their weirdo beliefs.
    But never forget: Jesus gives MIRACLE head!

  • That’s Not Yogurt

    Fuck you and your faith.

  • Canadian Atheist, eh!

    Why can’t you ask yourself that same question?

  • Matt D

    Then you would be wrong, but clearly, it’s pointless to debate the issue, since you’ve made up your mind.
    I’ll have to rely on people that have more trust, or perhaps the tools that show you’re wrong.

  • That’s Not Yogurt

    Nobody here cares whether or not you deny the existence of god. You are the one who cares about that. I have no need to deny the existence of something which has not been proven to exist.
    Nevertheless, fuck you and that ugly whore your “savior” crawled out of. I say this not in anger, but just to make sure it’s the sort of thing worthless goons like you have to see when you show up where you’re not wanted.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

    No, it’s not a misunderstanding. baal is convinced that Matt D is a psychopathic sock puppet. It’s at the point where protests just convince him more.

  • That’s Not Yogurt

    He hasn’t stopped raping children; why would he stop beating his wife?

  • MyScienceCanBeatUpYourGod

    “Religious nuts get mad at atheists because they know we’re right”

  • Just my $0.02

    “Barton claims “atheists get angry because they do know that God exists” and wonders why atheists get upset when evolution is challenged since he never gets upset when people claim Bigfoot is real”

    I’m not aware of any organized Bigfootists who try to get their pseudo-theory taught as fact in schools or go around scaring the living shit out of children with fears of being attacked by Bigfoot for not believing in in him or worshiping him correctly. I’ve never heard of Bigfootists receiving government funds or tax-free status for their club or for “alternative” medical or psychological facilities owned by their club. And I don’t know of any Bigfootists who accuse A-bigfootists of being immoral, untrustworthy, dangerous, or unfit for public office.

    I’m not angry at believers in Bigfoot because, to my knowledge, they don’t impose their beliefs, practices, or ideology on others and they aren’t given special rights or unfair tax benefits by a Bigfootist majority government.

  • WallofSleep

    But, but, but… “Fred”.

  • UWIR

    Wow, Martin Luther King Jr. must have been really, really insecure in his belief that black people deserved to be treated with respect.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson
  • Fred

    I’m totally a real boy and not a sock puppet!

    When I’m on my home computer I’m posting under a different name. That’s because of an inability to remember which credentials are saved where and I can’t be arsed to fix it But totally not a Matt or Frank or whatever.

  • phantomreader42
  • Matt D

    Yes he is, but I don’t understand why…it’s not like I haven’t visitied and made comments on this blog for some time now. I am getting sick of seeing him slander me for no reason, but I’m not going to flee the blog because one man made a mistake.

  • Canadian Atheist, eh!

    Indeed. It’s a risibly fatuous claim, and the mind reels just trying to fathom people apprehending it as sound logic.

  • phantomreader42

    Frank is a known troll that keeps reinfesting various Patheos blogs. And Disqus was programmed by squirrels high on LSD.

  • WallofSleep

    Don’t take it personal. I once saw Richard Wade here make a rather dubious and unintelligent argument in support of creationism, to which I thought “WTF?!?! Did I wake up in an alternate universe”? Of course it was not him, and that’s when I learned of this damned comment bug.

  • Matt D

    That’s me.

  • busterggi

    Who gets to decide – you?

    Why should I believe you are a real Christian let alone that you can tell who else may be?

  • busterggi

    But a religion can also be known by its nuts.

  • busterggi

    Well someone claims jesus said something like that but where is the evidence other than that presented by someone with an agenda to propagandize for religion?

  • busterggi

    Then don’t claim you know what you’re looking at.

  • Blacksheep

    “Nevertheless, fuck you and that ugly whore your “savior” crawled out of.”

    Where does a sentiment like that even come from?

  • rtanen

    And when God sues me for slander and libel, I might believe it. Of course, that would require showing up in court, which would require existing.

  • baal

    Wrong Rich, Dillahunty does not post under Matt D. Dillahunty is also clearly smart and tends to make really long comments when he makes them. Matt D is entirely inarticulate and tends to many small comments.

  • Frank

    Thankfully what you think you see if only that.

  • Blacksheep

    There is a bug, sometimes it ascribes the wrong poster name, then refreshes a little while later.

  • Frank

    I would hope you would know immediately as those are really fairy tales. God however is not.

  • SansDeus

    They believe they are, even if they don’t fit the biblical definition.

    That statement gives a strong whiff of the “No true Scotsman” fallacy as you could apply that statement to people who don’t follow Leviticus word-for-word. Though they could still fit the scriptures you provided later.

  • baal

    In your case, I’m not buying it.

  • Frank

    Your words have no power.

  • Frank

    :)

  • WallofSleep

    Yeah, Santa Claus is fake, but the Tooth Fairy is totally real. Nothing juvenile about that kind of thinking, no sir.

    EDIT: And sadly, there is more “proof” for the existence of Santa or the Tooth Fairy than there is for a re-purposed God of War from Judea.

  • Blacksheep

    Not even sure what you mean by that – but nevertheless, there is a bug.

  • baal

    but this bug is specific to one poster, over time and goes both primary to troll and troll to primary. Were it mere random bug, it wouldn’t have that specificity.

  • Rain

    Pseudo-Historian David Barton: ‘Atheists Get Angry Because They Do Know That God Exists’

    I think he is doing what is commonly known as “trolling”. Except it is the sociopathic kind, not the funny haha kind.

    Why is it that atheists get mad?

    Basically that is Barton’s equivalent of the “U mad bro?”

  • Matt D

    When you learn to apply this wisdom to your own religion, you’ll understand Atheism better.

  • Blacksheep

    Got it. I’ve been experiencing a bug that manifests as my post showing as coming from the person I’m responding to – so for example this post might show up as coming from you – baal – the only difference being that baal is in gray, not blue.

  • Matt D

    The frequent trolling by regulars does not put everyone their best behavior, but hostility towards Christianity isn’t unwarranted for many of us.
    .
    For example, I can only hear that I’m going to hell for being gay so many times before I respond with a threat of my own.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

    I didn’t think you were quoting ‘our’ Matt D, or confusing them. I thought you were perhaps quoting ‘the’ Matt Dillahunty.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

    I actually briefly considered asking Hemant to verify that Matt D is at least posting from a different IP address than the people baal ascribes to him.

    But then I remembered he’s a high school teacher. He probably gets his fill of drama.

  • eric

    I do indeed know them by their works – you’ve posted a huge amount of times here. Clearly you lack self-control. Ergo, not a real christian. Responding to this will simply add more confirming data.

  • Matt D

    He’ll just say he’s trying to save us from hell. These people haven’t exactly just popped up, they’ve had centuries to fine tune their counter-arguments and rhetoric.

  • eric

    But I look at what you are doing here and I don’t see Christ. So what does that mean?
    Well, either you’re not Christian. Or people’s intuitive sense of “seeing Christ” can be wrong. In which case, yours can be wrong too.

  • baal

    oic, you read it as an attribution to dillahunty. No, it was me tagging to who I think made the comment to which I was replying. I really want to look at the server logs so I can finally prove the troll’s identity.

  • VCP

    Lie. Charlie Brown often said it when he was obviously angry.

  • Matt D

    Many reasons. You being a liar, refusing to consider any evidence we give, refusing to understand that your religion isn’t the only one in existence.
    .
    Oh and my favorite, is where you start a conversation with Atheists by stating that being angry must mean we know we are wrong, then you spend the rest of your time intentionally provoking us!

  • ZenDruid

    “God[']s laws trump everything.”

    No, in your mind, the crazy bogeyman stories of some middle-eastern bronze age goat-fuckers trump reality.

    Please don’t breed. Humanity has a slim enough chance of evolving beyond stupidity, and you don’t have any genes that we want.

  • ZenDruid

    Got evidence?

  • Sven2547

    There is “challenging” beliefs (which I encourage) and there is LYING about beliefs (which is stupid).

    David Barton is lying.

  • Matt D

    Why does a conspiracy theory that I’m “Frank” or “Fred” in disguise, sound more plausible to you than Disqus being buggy?

  • WillBell

    They’d say you’re not living a Christian life… why should I give you more credence?

  • Lagerbaer

    To be fair, from a friend of a friend I heard about a guy who sent hate mail to someone who had made fun of his belief in bigfoot..

  • Lagerbaer

    You do realize that various Christian sects have various opinions of this? Are you saved by grace or by works? If you think it is works, Jack Chick might want to have a word with you. Or, more likely, will draw a nasty cartoon about you.

  • Guest

    That’s just not true. In fact, people often get really upset when something they believe absolutely is challenged, because a belief like that feels like a part of them.

  • Matt D

    ” Matt D is entirely inarticulate and tends to many small comments.”
    .
    Uh, thanks for hurting my feelings, Baal.

  • Guest

    God is imaginary. Imaginary things cannot love.

  • Blacksheep

    I get it. For what it’s worth, the Bible spends much more time condemning people who are judgemental, prideful, adulterous, dishonest, etc. than it does homosexuality.

  • Matt D

    At this point, it just seems that baal has made up his mind about me, so proof won’t convince him anyway. But I welcome it, regardless, if you can get it.

  • Blacksheep

    (I get your comment – not That’s not yogurt’s).

  • Blacksheep

    Good point!

  • Matt D

    I know, which is all the more reason I’m angry. They spend more time focusing on things outside the mirror (the unknown) to avoid looking into it. It’s fortunate that there are more kind and compassionate people than not (I’m not blind to the support gay people have been getting in my lifetime) but they aren’t the ones who twist and shout, of course.

  • baal

    ok :)

  • islandbrewer

    So according to you, if I’m on my death bed, and repent of my evil atheistic ways, it does me no good to ask Jesus for forgiveness, because I’ll have no time to manifest the works by which I’m supposed to be known as a True Christian (TM).

  • cipher

    And believers in aliens and Bigfoot don’t think everyone who disagrees with them deserves to burn forever in a lake of fire.

    Psychopaths, the lot of them. This isn’t the result of early childhood indoctrination; they’re criminally insane. They are the worst people in the world.

  • cipher

    I would “Like” this comment multiple times if Disqus would allow it.

  • islandbrewer

    Why is it wrong to be angry at someone who is lying, refusing to engage in honest debate, misrepresenting one’s position with strawmen, pretending to take the moral high ground without demonstrating one shred of morality, and generally acting like an asshole?

    Is that not sufficient reason to be angry?

    Why so evasive, Frank?

  • cipher

    I see them as they are.

    Oh, please. You see NOTHING as it is. You wouldn’t recognize objective reality if it walked up to you and introduced itself.

  • Matt D

    Feel free to look at those logs, I’d love to hear an apology from you afterwards. You can either do so on this blog, or email me at matthew.delemos@gmail.com.

  • cipher

    It’s not enough for you to believe. If it was, you’d just believe and leave everyone else alone. But since you don’t really believe, you are compelled to come here and tell us that God exists, over and over again.

    Rich, HUGE “Like”.

    Missionaries and proselytizers are clueless regarding their own motives. They are the least introspective people on the planet.

  • Matt D

    I’m still waiting for you to prove you’re not a liar, Frank, and FYI, this isn’t a private conversation. Onlookers are not impressed by you lying about others to prop up your beliefs, so you’re only making it t worse by avoiding my question.

  • cipher

    Where does a sentiment like that even come from?

    Do you really want to know where it comes from, Blacksheep? It comes from a lifetime of hearing people like you telling us we’re born in sin and deserve to be tortured eternally. I am so heartily sick of people like you and Frank I no longer have the vocabulary to describe it. You people have, quite literally, ruined my life. Christianity is pure evil. With the fullness of my being, I wish that man had never existed (or, if he didn’t, that the mythology developed around him had never come into existence). If I could press a button and make all of you disappear, I would do so without a nanosecond of hesitation.

  • cipher

    Well, you have no brains. We’re even.

  • Jim Jones

    Yes they are. Just like Muslims, Jews, Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs and every other group.

  • Jim Jones

    > There’s more but you get the idea.

    Sure do.

    “Christianity: 2,000 years of everyone making it up as they go.”

  • Jim Jones

    > WBC are not living a Christian life.

    They follow the bible closer than you do.

  • cipher

    And Disqus was programmed by squirrels high on LSD.

    You got that right!

  • Frank

    Why are you so angry? Why do you feel the need to misrepresent? Is your position that weak?

  • Frank

    No that’s not what I said. But you can come to Christ on your deathbed. I pray that you do.

  • Frank

    No they don’t. in fact they don’t seem to follow it at all.

  • Frank

    I don’t need to respond I choose to. So its confirmation of nothing but nice that’s a nice try at setting me up.

  • Frank

    If you feel like your life is ruined I am sorry you feel that way. Its a terrible way to live but you did yourself. Everyone likes to play the blame game but no one likes to take personal responsibility.

  • Frank

    There must be another Charlie Brown. It was a sign of frustration not anger.

  • Frank

    I have not lied once. Why do you need to make false accusations?

  • Frank

    Its unrealistic to expect reason from the unreasonable.

  • C Peterson

    It seems to me that many theists (especially Christians) get angry at atheists because they have a pretty good idea that we’re the ones who are right. They’re in a mix of the denial and anger phases of grief for the loss of their belief system.

  • cipher

    You’re genetic garbage. You shouldn’t be allowed to reproduce.

  • Michael Harrison

    Structural and thematic, for instance. The Bible far closer to mythology than folktale to the extent it even has annoying lists (compare Book 2 of The Iliad) and silly origin stories (why snakes don’t have legs and why there are rainbows, versus why animals have tails and humans don’t and where spiders come from). Although tall tales also have origin stories, so maybe you’re onto something.

  • Matt D

    I’m comfortable people can see the truth by reading your posts, there’s really no need for me to continue demonstrating you are one. Have a nice day!

  • Matt D

    It is also unrealistic to claim one religion is right, and the other thousand are wrong, yet it doesn’t stop you from doing so.

  • http://andybreeden.com Andy Breeden

    David Barton, the Backdoor Redactor: http://on.fb.me/16Rv20F

  • ORAXX

    Given the fact Barton lacks the requisite education to teach history at the grade school level, he may as well be calling himself an astronaut as a historian.

  • unclemike

    If you imagine “Frank’s” comments here in the voice of HAL from 2001, they’re quite amusing. And creepy.

    More creepy, really.

  • Ryan Hite

    …… I can’t believe people still think this way…

  • Tor

    I don’t believe in aliens, but I do have a hankering for Bigfoot. And those of you who disagree will not burn in a lake of fire, but will become marshmallows at the eternal weenie roast.

  • Str3amer

    Then he was no true bigfoot believer.

  • Str3amer

    Owww shiiii, he broke my irony meter. Or was this the joke? Giving someone that uneducated some air time? Are they copying the Jersey Shore format?

  • Mick

    On the bright side: All the mainstream (non-Creationist) churches are telling their parishioners that David Barton is a liar, the theory of evolution is acceptable and atheists are not tools of Satan. That’s the good thing about the mainstreamers. They are noted for their honesty and they never, ever, lie; not even by omission.

  • William Robert David Niblett

    no. they can call themselves such all they like. to ACTUALLY be a “christian” christ would have to EXIST….so, no, there is no such thing as chirstians, just deluded fools who call themselves such.

  • islandbrewer

    But you can come to Christ on your deathbed.

    Not according to you, because:

    Faith without works is dead.

    So without works, I am no True Christian (TM), so goes your logic.

    Why am I on my deathbed conversion at the last second more of a True Christian (TM) than, say, Fred Phelps, who may simply be misguided by homophobia, self-loathing, and a literal interpretation of scripture, but would otherwise be kind and loving and christiany and all that? Or Hitler, for that matter?

    If you, whom I presume are a True Christian (TM), lash out in anger, once, do you cease to be a True Christian (TM)? What if it’s twice? Three times? At what point between you, your wonderfulness, and the genocide of 7.5 million people do you cease to be a True Christian (TM)? Can we measure people with patented Christianometers? Would those be like the E-meters that Scientologists use to measure body thetans?

  • islandbrewer

    I am angry because there are six states in which it is illegal for me to hold public office because of my non belief. I am angry because smug shitbags such as yourself believe you are more moral than I am. I am angry because fucking religious assholes are slowly destroying our ecosystem, because they believe their invisible man in the sky wouldn’t let anything terrible happen to the earth. I am angry because fucking worthless moralizing religious fucktards prevent women from having simple and safe medical procedures which could save their lives. I am angry because, when faced with pages and pages of cogent arguments, assholes who don’t give one fucking damn about the people they are speaking to plug their ears and repeat the same shitty mantra-like fallacies about True Christianity (TM) and faith. I am angry because you insinuate that my “position is weak,” without actually making any argument, and it is tiresome.

    I am angry because you are quite pointedly looking down at me, and others here, many of whom have accomplished some pretty amazing things, because you think you have a giant invisible imaginary friend, who is really going to show us what for … after we die.

    But I’m generally a happy person. I’m happy because people like you and argument styles like yours are a big reason that atheism is on the rise in the US. I’m happy because people very much NOT like you continue to explore the universe (the actual one), and invent, and discover, rather than marvel at how great their imaginary friend(s) is(are). I’m happy because, while in my introductory class at the beginning of last year, one of my fourth graders proudly stated that he was an atheist when we were going around the class and talking about ourselves.

    Please explain, in detail, what I have misrepresented.

  • C.L. Honeycutt

    Only when we are insecure does assumptions bother us.

    That’s something that only people who have all the power and lack empathy say. You’d know that if you actually read the discussions on this site instead of trolling as you have admitted to doing.

    Also, you’re projecting. You are here trolling BECAUSE you are insecure, hypocrite. Ask Jesus to help pry that beam out of your eye.

  • C.L. Honeycutt

    “I’m afraid I can’t make an argument, Dave.”

  • C.L. Honeycutt

    Which is why we’re so tolerant of you, angrums.

  • C.L. Honeycutt

    If you’re not familiar with that fallacy yet and why repeating it makes people laugh at you, one has to wonder if you’re made to type by your trainer putting peanut butter all over your fingers and duct taping a towel over the keyboard.

  • usclat

    Frank, please shut up. So YOU know what it is to be a true christian? I see … wow, you guys are so screwed up. You’re all constantly attacking each other and other myths and their believers …. holy shit, religions have NO basis in logic, common sense, evidence or reality. YET, we have to put up with shit-for-brains like you who come in and tell everyone how some of your fellow shit-for-brains aren’t really ‘true’ SFB’ers! Wow.

  • islandbrewer

    “I will pray for you, Dave.”

  • islandbrewer

    You forgot the “I’ll pray for you.”

    If you’re trying to goad people into anger, as you so obviously must be, that’s a good one to toss in.

  • wombat

    Ignoring two well-thought-out, in-depth answers in favour of a quick snipe. Ten points for undermining any credibility you had, have, or could ever possibly have.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson
  • http://friendlyatheist.com Richard Wade

    Wow I’m glad I didn’t see that, otherwise I might have gotten angry, (or more likely a WTF?!?! like you did) but we have it on the authority of the self styled world’s most preeminent psychic psychologist that anger is somehow a certain sign of insecurity. Close call. whew.

  • islandbrewer

    Sorry, I haven’t been following this …. baal thinks that Frank the True Christian (TM) is Matt Dillahunty?

  • ZenDruid

    It’s just as well. We could legitimately demand that the godbots sacrifice a goat instead of praying. After all, it takes a fair bit of fuel to sustain the dependable neurons necessary to maintain the real world.

  • Whirlwitch

    I liked it once just for you.

  • EvolutionKills

    Bravo sir, bravo! That made me laugh all too hard.

  • Whirlwitch

    I have seen the bug in action, and I have seen other regular posters, CPeterson for one, get swapped with trolls, of which Frank was one. I’ve never seen Matt D get swapped with anybody, probably he doesn’t post in the middle of the night EST like I do.

  • EvolutionKills

    Bad banana!

  • EvolutionKills

    “They’re not real AI’s, Dave.”

  • Fanraeth

    So if the integral part of my faith was slapping you in the face with a nerf bat whenever I saw you, I should be allowed to circumvent our laws against assault?

  • cipher

    ;-)

  • Randay

    Atheists are so angry that they don’t go door-to-door to tell you that you are going to hell if you don’t accept some so-and-so as the light of your life. Atheists are also so angry that they don’t get up on soapboxes in public squares to spout out idiotic quotations from some “holy” book. Atheists are so angry that they ignore the “wisdom” of god groupie David Barton.

  • Steve Greene

    Christians have been writing hateful things about atheists for centuries, even to this day.

    Finally, just in in the last several years, atheists have “woken up” and decided to speak back, letting the atheist-hating Christians know, ‘You are starting to really piss me off with your BS.”

    Christians say, ‘Why are you atheists so angry?’

    Oh, the hypocritical games Christians play.

  • decathelite

    So your 2 billion and counting isn’t really a true statement?

  • phantomreader42

    The funny thing is, no matter how many True Christians™ are in the same thread, they never, ever address the fact that each of them considers the others fakes. Because they only pretend to care about what constitutes True Christianity™ when it’s immediately convenient for them.

  • phantomreader42

    It was not intended to be a factual statement :P

  • C.L. Honeycutt

    Holee crap but that is a creepy one. You win.

  • Without Malice

    Which is why you can’t see through the BS of Christianity.

  • http://www.summerseale.com/ Summer Seale

    “Pseudo-Historian David Barton: ‘Atheists Get Angry Because They Do Know That God Exists’”

    I know it’s not your style, Hemant, but you’re being too polite when you refer to him as a “Pseudo-Historian”. He’s not a “Pseudo-Historian”. He’s a Liar. It should read: “Liar David Barton:….”

  • http://www.holytape.etsy.com Holytape

    What has been see, can not be unseen…… (Stays awake for weeks in the fetal position.)

  • mhj2013

    Well, it’s worth pointing out that the Institute for Creation Research does NOT advocate forcing creation to be taught in schools:
    “It will be noted that no recommendation is made for political or legal pressure to force the teaching of creationism in the schools”
    (http://www.icr.org/article/48/)

    Also, from answersingenesis.org:
    “AiG is not a political action group, and we have never been directly involved in trying to get creation mandated in public schools.”
    (http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2013/05/27/aclu-needs-legislation-to-protect-its-anti-god-religion/)

    “Despite reports to the contrary, most creation groups do not endorse legislation that would force educators to teach creation.”
    (http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v3/n4/school-scare)

    Hmmmm… may have to rethink your conclusion that atheists get angry because creationists are “trying to push those views into public schools.” At least the larger mainstream creationist organizations are doing no such thing (I can’t make a statement for individuals or other smaller organizations).

  • C.L. Honeycutt

    Reread those statements and those websites. There are clues to their lies just in the tiny snippets you quote, let alone in what they actually do.

  • mhj2013

    The point is they do not want legislation forcing public schools to teach creation. They certainly want creation (alongside evolution) taught in schools by the free will of the educators, they just don’t want it to be forced. There are no “lies” in those quotes.


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