Mark Driscoll’s Advice: Don’t Marry People Who Are Pro-Choice Because They ‘Do Not Value Children’

Pastor Mark Driscoll has had a busy week, lying about his books getting “confiscated,” and telling Christians they needed to stop all the in-fighting.

Turns out he’s not done yet. Yesterday, he posted on his website a list of reasons not to marry anyone who’s pro-choice.

Mark Driscoll’s idea of what marrying a pro-choice person looks like

It includes gems like this one:

3. They do not value children the same way that you do. You cannot bring a child into this world with someone who does not value the child as God does and as you do.

9. They are wrong.

I don’t know how you baby-hating-murderers live with yourselves, what with all those beautiful children you brought into this world only when you were finally ready to care for them. I guess you’re just awful parents who don’t really love your children. Or any children, really. You should emulate people like Driscoll who would rather force a woman to have a child against her will.

It’s not that Driscoll’s completely wrong. There actually is a legitimate reason not to marry someone who’s pro-life if you’re pro-choice (and vice versa): It means you may also disagree on a whole host of other values and all of those conflicts may prove to be too much to overcome over the course of your marriage. You won’t agree on everything, but you’d hope that two people who marry at least share core beliefs about how the world should work.

If you think, as Driscoll does, that your pro-choice spouse is a “murderer,” then marriage may not be the best option. If you think, as some atheists do, that all religious people are insanely delusional, then marrying a deeply religious person won’t be easy. Simply put, if you don’t respect your husband or wife, things won’t work out.

But that’s not what Driscoll writes. No, he goes far beyond that. He paints this as a conflict of good versus evil, right versus wrong, him versus the world:

5. If a future pregnancy comes at a tough time (job loss, inconvenience, hard season of life), you may find yourself under pressure to murder the child — a massive, stressful, possibly irreconcilable conflict.

In his view, marrying someone who values a woman’s body that much is a lot like being his accomplice in homicide.

Not that anyone should take marriage advice from Driscoll. After all, he’s the guy who told his pregnant wife he wouldn’t have married her had he known that she had fooled around with someone else… during high school… before they ever met.

Here’s better marriage advice for you: Don’t ever marry someone who harbors as much contempt as Driscoll does for anyone who thinks differently from him.

(Image via Shutterstock)

About Hemant Mehta

Hemant Mehta is the chair of Foundation Beyond Belief and a high school math teacher in the suburbs of Chicago. He began writing the Friendly Atheist blog in 2006. His latest book is called The Young Atheist's Survival Guide.

  • http://nwrickert.wordpress.com/ Neil Rickert

    How about:

    Don’t marry anyone who agrees with Mark Driscoll.

  • TheG

    One better: don’t marry man that hates women as much as those men in the Charismatic Movement, baptists, Catholics….

  • http://www.holytape.etsy.com Holytape

    I am pro-choice, and I value children, although not more than $6.99/lb.

    • JT Rager

      Estimates found Googling the amount of money to raise a child was $241,000. If you have a 7 lb baby, that’s around $35,000/lb . Looks slightly out of your price range.

      • http://lady-die.deviantart.com/ LizzyJessie

        That sounds like an estimate for a First World Baby. Of course it’ll come at a premium. If you want a lower price you’ll have to go with a Third World Baby. According to late night TV, they cost just 33¢ a day. That adds up to $120.45 for a 12 month old!

        • JT Rager

          Meh. But you ostensibly have to raise the thing longer than 12 months. Let’s say it’s a female and you can marry it off at age 10. That’s still $172.07/lb you have there. You have to have a dowry of over $1200 to get any profit margin!

          • http://lady-die.deviantart.com/ LizzyJessie

            Raise them? I thought we were supposed to EAT them!

    • Kodie

      If it fell off a truck, maybe. Veal’s almost 4x more expensive!

  • Michaela Samuels

    Yeah, every time I think I’ve heard the worst from him, he opens his mouth again. Rarely have I witnessed such a vile, hateful, hypocritical leader of masses. There are lots of those types, but he is one hell of a representative.

    • WingsThree

      People who buy this ass-wipe’s hateful drivel are just as awful – he’s just their megaphone, sadly.

  • God’s Starship

    Unlike Mark Discoll, I care more if babies that have been born get to eat than whether a few fetuses get flushed here and there.

  • Amor DeCosmos

    Why to not marry an anti-choice person.

    3. They do not value women the same way that you do.

  • Roy Gamsgrø

    “For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all
    the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast … and when I see
    the blood, I will pass over you,” – Exodus 12:12-13

    I do not have children. I do not want children.
    I am pro-choice, but I still love children infinitely more than your god, Driscoll.

    • http://lady-die.deviantart.com/ LizzyJessie

      “Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”

      Psalm 137:9

      • Intelligent Donkey

        I think I’ll stay with Zoloft.

  • WallofSleep

    I’m pro-choice, mainly because I’m pro-minding-my-own-fucking-business. I have dude parts, not lady parts, so it’s really is none of my fucking business if someone has an abortion or not.

    That said, even if I were a goddamned busy-body, I’d more likely than not still be pro-choice.

    As far as kids go, I could take ‘em or leave ‘em. I prefer the taste of goat, anyway.

    • http://parkandbark.wordpress.com/ Houndentenor

      Same here. But I am STRONGLY pro-birth control, disease prevention and sex education. There really are too many abortions in recent years. I am not saying that to slut-shame anyone but as a gay man I can’t help but think that they are lucky that the worst thing that came from them having unprotected sex was a pregnancy. We could reduce the abortion rates through education and better access to birth control and I think that would be good for everyone. I even think pro-choice advocates would agree with me. Oddly enough the people who don’t want better sex ed are the same ones who are against abortion. that’s a position that makes no sense at all. They also then complain about people having more children than they can afford. #facepalm Some of our society’s problems have pretty simple solutions, but we are blocked at every turn by the religious loons who think that if they don’t tell their kids about sex they won’t have it. (LIke it’s rocket science or something.)

      • Quis ut Deus

        There is nothing remotely immoral or unsettling about abortion esp. if done during the 1st trimester:

        http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls6w7phG8f1qi68z9.jpg

        • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

          I’ve had periods more unsettling than that…

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Yeah. Clotty periods are the worst :(

            • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

              All I’m gonna say is “thank god for Depo Provera”.

              • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

                NuvaRing here (since I’m planning to try to spawn in fewer than 5 years), but yeah. Thank science for that!

        • EuropeanCommunist

          I might be twisting what Houndentenor said but it seems to me he’s not implying there is anything morally wrong with abortions, they are simply an unnecessary medical procedure that can be so easily avoided.

          You just don’t have any sex at all!

          Or, more realistically given the target audience of hormone-filled teenagers, use birth-control.

          • Quis ut Deus

            I have read that there are women who prefer to use abortion as birth control, because they dislike what the pill does to their body.

            And there is nothing wrong with that. Especially if 1st trimester. And it can be done with a pill.

            • http://parkandbark.wordpress.com/ Houndentenor

              Well I suppose compared to the pill you may be right. Sorry my perspective as skewed as a gay man who practices safer sex. There is also the risk of contracted diseases from the sex acts that got them pregnant. I realize the risk is perhaps lower for straight women than it is for gay men, but there are women who get hiv, clamydia, and other diseases from unprotected sex. That was my point.

              • Quis ut Deus

                Oh, I agree.

                Protected sex should always be #1 choice.

                I was just adding a diff perspective that I have heard.

      • DavidMHart

        “Oddly enough the people who don’t want better sex ed are the same ones
        who are against abortion. that’s a position that makes no sense at all.”

        Oh, no. It makes perfect sense, once you realise that
        what they say they want is not quite what they actually want.

        • http://parkandbark.wordpress.com/ Houndentenor

          Yes, and they seem to be getting bolder about asserting that they are against birth control as well in the last couple of years.

  • ShoeUnited

    I am pro-life. Where else are you going to get fresh baby in the morning if everyone is a responsible person? I gotta eat!

  • L.Long

    ….who does not value the child as God does….
    From a male that believes the buyBull where his gawd orders the jews to commit thousands of abortions and child killings just days after telling them ‘thou shalt not kill’.
    I’m suppose to believe what this dimwit has to say???

  • WallofSleep

    “Mark Driscoll needs to be found…”

    Stop. Just stop. That’s just the sort of thing you should be keeping to yourself, not typing on someone’s blog.

  • Carmelita Spats

    Jeebus already did that. He was his own Father.

    • WallofSleep

      Incorrect. He did not fuck himself. At best, considering the claims, God was nothing more than an incestuous mother-fucker with a unique kind of oedipal complex.

      • Carmelita Spats

        LOL! Jesus did fuck himself…Being your own father is very fucked up and quite unhealthy because it means that you can never resolve your parental issues.

  • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

    Quality over quantity, man. Better to have fewer children and be able to invest more in them than to pop out as many kids as your body will let you because Jeebus.

    • Leiningen’s Ants
      • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

        Oh, shit — were the ducklings okay?

        • Fred_the_Dog

          Yes, they were rescued. I remember that story because I’d previously rescued ducklings the same way. You pull up the grate, block the holes with cardboard or a blanket, and get in there and toss them out, all the while with Mama duck going crazy.

          • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

            Good. *relaxes*

        • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

          Yeah, they were fine. A police officer went down there and scooped them up again.

          • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

            Then probably had lunch at KFC.

            • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

              Eating chicks is silly- they’re too small to properly savor. Same with eating baby ducks.

              • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

                Sadly, my second thought about the ducklings was along the lines of “hate to see perfectly good food go to waste like that.”

                • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

                  Heh, yeah, duck is tasty.

    • Quis ut Deus

      Yep and it’s been proven (can’t find the article) that spacing births = healthier for mom and kids.

    • islandbrewer

      Yes, Quiverfull families are definitely r-strategists. They’re not unlike, say, guppies or cockroaches.

      • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

        Except guppies and cockroaches are actually useful…

        • Fred Bailey

          Well, cockroaches, anyway….

          • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

            Guppies == cat food.

            • C.L. Honeycutt

              Guppy fry = Guppy food!

              • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

                So they eat their own young?

                • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

                  From the moment of birth, each fry is fully capable of swimming, eating, and avoiding danger. If not kept separate, the older, mature guppies will eat the fry, so the use of a breeder box, net breeder, or a separate 20–40 litres (4–9 imp gal; 5–11 US gal) tank is recommended. Live plants may be used as hiding places for the fry.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guppy#Reproduction

                  Let’s just say they start their natural selection at an early age.

                • C.L. Honeycutt

                  To add to what Rich Wilson wrote, when a female guppy (and some other common pet breeds, like mollies) is about to give birth, the others may actually chase her around, eating all the fry as they pop out if they aren’t separated and there’s no breeder grass. The mother will even do so sometimes. It’s just… barf. Mollies are especially bad for this. They’re nasty, stupid things, even for fish.

                  On the other fin, oscars, which have a deserved reputation for stupidity when it comes to choking themselves to death on fish they can’t eat, like to pair off, and rarely display some remarkable (at least to me) social behavior. I once saw an oscar defend its sick partner from other fish for two and a half days before the sick oscar finally passed. The healthy oscar went so far as to lie on top of the sick one to keep it safe. Actually sideways on top of it.

                • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

                  Coooool….

    • EuropeanCommunist

      But the more kids you have the more love of Jeebus they can spread!

  • TiltedHorizon

    Sorry to burst your bubble Driscoll but the Wife & I are pro-choice. I’m an Atheist, she is a Christian. We not only value children, we have committed our home, our resources, and our lives to children in need. By your assertion, we don’t exist yet here we are.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1026609730 Jim Balter

    “They do not value children the same way that you do.” — Yeah, we value children after they’re born (when they actually are children), they value them only before they’re born (when they’re fetuses and political footballs).

  • cary_w

    No, Mr. Driscoll, it’s the pro-lifers who do not value children, they only value fetuses.

    I work with disabled children and it has sharpened my views on the whole God/no God and abortion debate. First, there is clearly no God. It in inconceivable that a God who has any power whatsoever would allow some of these children to be born, and then refuse to lift a finger to heal them. To stand by and do nothing for innocent children who spend their live trapped in a body that doesn’t function and a brain that doesn’t work well enough to let them communicate and understand the world around them is truly abhorrent. If by some chance I’m wrong and God exists, then He’s an asshole who doesn’t deserve to be worshiped. And second, yes I’m going to say it, some of these kids should not have been born. But now that they’re here, I’ll be damned if I’m not going to do everything in my power to help give them a meaningful life. The morality of a society can be judged on how well they take care of their most needy and vulnerable citizens.

    So, yeah, I guess I’m the exact opposite of pro-life ( does that make me anti-life?) because I think it’s OK to abort a fetus that has any know disabilities, but once that child is born i think he or she has the right to comprehensive medical care, appropriate education and a chance at living a meaningful life.

    • Quis ut Deus

      It is a loving God that creates a child who will only be born, suffer for a few hours, and then die.

      It is to teach us compassion.

      Remember, a loving, perfect God tortures children so that we may all learn to love, just like him.

      How inspiring is that?

      • cyb pauli

        Remember what the The Lord Most High had arranged for HIS only begotten Son. Abortion seems pretty decent by comparison.

    • doninkansas

      but, but, but, according to “Mother” Teresa, suffering is a beautiful gift to gawd. he treasures it when his “children” accept suffering as something beautiful for gawd. and also manage rake in billions of dollars like Tessie did.

      • KelpieLass

        No No No. The great “Mother” Teresa thought that the suffering of POOR people is a beautiful gift to gob. She wouldn’t allow her clinics to purchase new needles, instead reusing dull needles over and over and causing great pain. The clinics had more than enough money, but suffering of the poor is good.

        But when she became ill, she sought the best medical treatment in Europe and America.

        Gag me with a spoon.

  • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

    Mehta, you have certainly had a hard on for the White Pastor Driscoll lately.

    Which bothers you most? That he is a pastor, that he is white, or that he is richer than you will ever be?

    Its not really about his misogynistic religious views, now it it?

    Your jealously drips from your posts.

    • Mary Leinart

      I get so tired of the “you’re only critical because you’re jealous” argument. It has never made any sense to me.

      • C.L. Honeycutt

        You’re just saying it doesn’t make any sense because you’re jealous of their arguments.

    • Antitheist 2.0

      I’m confused… No where does he mention skin color or personal wealth. Your comments say much more about you then him.

    • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson
      • WallofSleep

        Ah yes, I see. For a while there I thought it was disqus screwing up screen names again.

        • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

          What’s amusing is that not only is my comment still getting downvotes after I ‘fessed, it’s gotten more downvotes than the original. I wonder if it would have made a difference if I hadn’t recently changed my avatar. Might be an interesting experiment in whether people pay more attention to the picture or the name.

          • mlj11

            I don’t drive by the comments section often enough to know the regular commentors by (screen) name, and I was going to downvote you until I saw your second comment.

            I think you should’ve left your explanation at the bottom of your original comment instead.

    • GCBill

      You’re trolling, but I’m leaving this here in case anyone is naive enough to take your accusations seriously:

      Him being a pastor is an issue (what with God not existing and all), but the bigger issue is the particular brand of Christianity that he preaches.
      Him being white is a non-issue.
      Him being “richer than [Hemant] will ever be” actually *is* an issue because it contradicts everything Jesus said about wealth and charity.

      EDIT: I am relieved you’re not actually a fan of Driscoll at all. I’m still leaving this here in case someone else actually thinks like your Poe.

    • Quis ut Deus

      Man that was a toughie. I took you seriously, because I have read some of the right wing blogs and they sound JUST like what you wrote.

      Uncanny.

    • http://Www.theirishatheist.wordpress.com/ The Irish Atheist

      I shall upvote you, because I seem to be one of the few here fluent in Sarcasm.

    • C.L. Honeycutt

      Oh god, I threw up a little. What the hell, man?

  • Monala

    I remember reading an article by a Christian guy about the moment he realized he was actually pro-choice. He was a student at a Christian college, and he and some other guys were having the typical late night college student philosophical discussion. One of the participants posed this question: what would you do if something were to go wrong in your wife’s pregnancy, possibly threatening her life if she were to continue it?
    He said that to a man, every single one of the young men in that room said that if it was a choice between the life of their wife or their unborn child, they’d pick their wife.

  • GCBill

    On the off-chance you’re not trolling, I seriously suggest you see a mental health professional.

  • Anathema

    My father’s parents are pro-life. They spanked their children. They’ve been avoiding contact with my dad as much as they possibly can for the past few years because they disagree with his politics. When I am around my grandparents, I am afraid to disagree with them because they react so angrily to anyone questioning them.

    My parents are pro-choice. They never spanked me. I’ve never been afraid to disagree or argue with them. They never got angry with me simply because I disagreed with their political opinions. They always encouraged my siblings and I to think for ourselves.

    So my experience actually aligns with what Mark Driscoll says about how pro-choice people do not value their children in the same way that pro-life people do. My parents primarily value children as developing individuals with the right to form their own opinions and control important aspects of their own lives. Unlike my grandparents, they do not value children as obedient automatons meant to regurgitate the opinions of the people who raised them. For my parents, children were valued as individual people; they were never considered property or tools. Because they valued individual human beings as people, they could never tell a woman that she had forfeited her right to bodily autonomy when she became pregnant; they could never see a woman as a walking incubator rather than a human being.

    I’m not going to say that my experiences are representative. I’m sure that there are some wonderful pro-life parents out there and some terrible pro-choice ones. My point is that even if we accept that Mark Driscoll is right when he says that pro-choice parents cannot value their children in the same way that pro-life parents do, this does not necessarily reflect well on the pro-life crowd.

    • Intelligent Donkey

      It’s all about authority. I suspect that the world is divided into 2 camps: those who follow authority, and those who think for themselves. Christianity is extremely authoritarian.

      • Fred Bailey

        I am a parent. But before that, obviously, I was a child. The authority of parents over that of children is universally recognized, at least in principle. I see that, I do.

        But you know, my parents very frequently got it wrong. When their error was in my favor, I was in favor! But that was not usually the case. And I know more, now, having been a parent myself, than I did at the time, but really, when I review the decisions made by my mother and father, I have to say, they almost always had no clear idea what the hell had gone down, much less what to do about it. As a parent myself, I was in the same quandary. Perfect justice is not possible.

        Perfect justice, in fact, is never possible! Think about the times your parents got it wrong; think about the times you yourself had to guess, as a parent.

        Okay. If you are honest, you are with me on this. The genuine conclusion to be drawn from this experience must, of elegant necessity, be: No Sort of Authority is Actually Legitimate. This results from the fact that we can never know the true story. We can never actually read the minds of others. We always are in the position of someone who has to guess from scant evidence what really happened.

        I propose, in consequence, the following axiom: All Authority is Illegitimate, even my own.

        • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

          “I propose, in consequence, the following axiom: All Authority is Illegitimate, even my own.”

          …and we should just take that on your authority?

    • Fred Bailey

      Thanks for this, kid. Anecdata or not, it’s good to hear.

  • Ton_Chrysoprase

    Ha, joke’s on him for worshipping a god that kills ~60% of “babies” before the end of the first trimester. His god obviously hates babies and he’ll go to hell.

    • Baby_Raptor

      I heard the number was closer to 85%, but that might have been second trimester.

      • Ton_Chrysoprase

        I think your number is probably closer to the real one for the first trimester, particularly when counting fertilized eggs that don’t nest. Luckily 2nd trimester miscarriages are rare (right now I have a personal stake there).

  • cyb pauli

    I agree with Pastor Driscoll wholeheartedly. No anti-choice man would enjoy being married to me. There are women out there who don’t care to have authority over their physical bodies, there are women who don’t think men should be argued with, there are women who don’t enjoy oral sex, there are women who are terrified of their own sexual power, there are women who think a father has the right to express his rage in the form of “disciplining” his children… let the anti-choice men marry them. Bless their hearts. My partner of seven years was glad to inform a lady who came to my house with an abortion-ban petition that he is pro-choice and she didnt know what she was talking about.

    • WallofSleep

      “… there are women who don’t enjoy oral sex…”

      All my years of practice, for nothing. :(

      • cyb pauli

        Fear not, those women are nearly as rare as unicorns.

        • WallofSleep

          I’ve only met one, and my interest in her disappeared almost immediately. The very idea… not enjoying… I don’t even…

          • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ wmdkitty

            Wait, wait, giving or receiving?

            (Also, can I hire you to give my mate a few pointers in that area?)

            • WallofSleep

              “Wait, wait, giving or receiving?”

              Either. I really like both. But in this instance I’m talking about those on the receiving end.

              “Also, can I hire you to give my mate a few pointers in that area?”

              All I can say is watch porn, and pay particular attention to what the “lesbians” are doing. That’s how I learned. That, and taking direction. Also, I think I may have an oral fixation.

              • http://Www.theirishatheist.wordpress.com/ The Irish Atheist

                Continue….

  • Artor

    Agreed, but if you’re going to post, please try to come up with something better than that.

  • Baby_Raptor

    I value children. Actual children. A clump of developing tissue is not a child.

    • christianpundit

      Everyone who is alive today started out as a “clump of tissue,” though.

      • Baby_Raptor

        So? Everyone alive today could easily have been one of the ~70% of conceptions that miscarry before the woman even knows she’s pregnant. Or we all could have been an ectopic pregnancy, or a molar one.

        The potential to develop into life has value. It does not have anywhere near enough value to usurp the bodily autonomy of an already human woman.

        If you disagree, then more power to you. I respect that. But don’t try and force me to live that way.

  • EuropeanCommunist

    “9. They are wrong”

    Oh damn, I fold. This argument is bulletproof!

  • Larry Meredith

    aww don’t shoot her pregnant belly… you’ll hurt the woman!

  • http://Www.theirishatheist.wordpress.com/ The Irish Atheist

    This from the man who posted a quote by Oliver Cromwell, boasting about crushing the Catholic Church and wiping out thousands of us.

  • KelpieLass

    I guess all the children in the tribes slaughtered by the Isrealites at gob’s command don’t count.

    • christianpundit

      So you regard the unborn (those in the womb) as being children, then?

  • Kristen

    10. Good luck finding a pro-choice person who would be caught dead in a relationship with a MH member.

  • Niemand

    Reasons not to marry anyone who is “pro-life”
    1. They are, essentially, rapists. If they are willing to insist you allow your uterus be used against your will, how long before they demand the same of your vagina?

    2. They don’t value you. They’re willing to let you die to save a nonsentient entity. Anyone who wants you to die for an embryo, a flag, or a toaster oven is someone to avoid.
    3. They don’t value life as you do. “Pro-life” people say that they think that the embryo has the same value as an adult. Presumably that also means that they think that an adult has the same value as an embryo. And very little probing reveals that they think that an embryo dying “naturally” is a perfectly fine thing and possibly even “good”.
    4. Their understanding of biology is often poor.
    5. Their understanding of law is often poor.
    6. They aren’t willing to fix either of the above problems.
    7. They’re rarely interested in helping improve the lives of actual, living babies or adults or at least will prioritize that lower than “saving babies” (embryos), i.e. will vote for the WIC and welfare slashing Republican because he’s “pro-life” and smear the social programs expanding Democrat because she’s pro-choice.
    8. Abortion does not cause mental health issues. Abortion in the context of someone telling you that you’re evil for having an abortion does. (Studies have shown increased mental health issues after abortion compared to baseline if and only if the person having the abortion feels significant conflict over the issue.)
    9. Same goes for your daughter, should you have one and she want or need an abortion. You don’t want to put any future children you may have in that sort of position.

    10. They’re wrong.

  • tiredofhypocrites

    Someone who harbors as much contempt as the author apparently. It is funny how intolerant some are of other’s beliefs. One person believes a fetus has a soul, another person says they know they don’t and attack person one and call them intolerant. All of you and your breed of tolerance is just another form of hate, and self-righteousness, no less so than those you yourselves “preach against”. Someone says they believe a fetus has a soul or intrinsic value, your response is contempt. Here’s a hint, don’t listen to anyone who makes ad-hominem attacks and criticizes others for their beliefs and calls them intolerant. They are just as intolerant themselves, just blind to it.

    As to cary, the pro-lifers I know, have given far more money and time to adoptive agencies, taking care of single parent homes. In fact the churches in America do more for this than all the bleeding heart liberals combined who scream for it. Of course that is why you see people like most of you who feel great about giving 20 bucks every now and then to something, while decrying people who give whole portions and percentages of their salary to help their community.

    Perhaps if you could all get over your own hate and intolerance, you could learn to respect the positions of others.

    • christianpundit

      @ tired of hypocrites: I was a very conservative Christian for many years, until I began questing the faith the last two years. I’m now sort of quasi Christian, quasi agnostic.

      I’m sympathetic towards Christians and Christian view points (I am also pro-life), but really, let’s face it, sometimes the atheists and other Non Christians have valid, good criticisms of some Christians, some of the time. This would be one of those times.

      I would not waste my time defending someone who has consistently shown himself to be an egotistical maniac such as Driscoll; he is an embarrassment to Christians. Driscoll is a showman and entertainer, and he uses marketing and shock gimmicks to get attention to sell books and make money.

      I seriously doubt the man sincerely cares about Jesus Christ or helping hurting people. Maybe he does, but color me highly skeptical.

      Jesus Christ taught that not all who claim to follow him really are his, that some are wolves in sheeps’ clothing. Consider that may be true of Mark Driscoll and other celebrity preachers.

      Or, at least consider that even if Driscoll is 100% true, genuine Christian, that some of his views and statements are incorrect or unbiblical.

      Preacher Mark Driscoll has a history of being arrogant, rude, sexist, and sleazy (he is sex obsessed, and he discusses sex in graphic detail and in a very vulgar fashion in books and in sermons). Driscoll claims to have what some have dubbed “porn o visions.”

      The Bible does not say a lot about how a believer is to select a mate to marry. The Bible does not explicitly say, “thou shalt not marry a pro choicer.” Again, I am pro-life and do not support abortion, but for Driscoll to say Christians should not marry pro-choicers is his opinion only. It’s not binding on the Christian.

      In this day and age of prolonged, unwanted singleness among Christians (especially age 30, 40 and up) – we’re talking about Christian, single women who want to get married, but they are having a hard time finding potential Christian partners (there are about 2 or 3 unmarried Christian women for every unmarried Christian man, according to some sources), it’s foolish for Driscoll to put even more restrictions on Christian singles on whom they may marry.

      Only someone who is already married (such as Driscoll) can feel so free and smug and easy dictating to singles who desire marriage that they should go by his checklist, a check list which may actually prevent them from getting married at all.

      But I doubt Driscoll cares about how his blog post about whom Christian singles should marry will cause damage to singles, as all he wants to do is be the Christian preacher equivalent of radio shock jocks who say controversial things to get attention from the public and the media.

  • Alice Mayloe

    To anyone who doesn’t believe in God:

    I know you may think there is no God. I can guess about a thousand
    reasons why you wouldn’t believe in him. I won’t name any now though. I just
    wanted to say that everyone in the world is having problems. Everyone has
    something to deal with. For some is may be school/work, not feeling thin
    enough, or losing a loved family member. For others it could be disabilities,
    mental illnesses, or cancer. If you think anyone that you know has a perfect
    life than you are dead wrong. There is no one you could name that has a perfect
    life. That is the point though. You are not meant to have a fun filled terrific
    life here on earth. This is only temporary. Think of it as a test. If you are a
    good person on earth and even in difficult times you keep your faith in God,
    you just passed your test. But if you fail to acknowledge God and you are
    greedy your whole life you don’t deserve heaven.

    I just want you to ask yourself one question, do you really think God
    is the one causing the horror in this world? Because he’s not. People are.
    People are the reason for the horrible things on this planet. We are the ones
    that sin. And as much as we would like to think so, God is not the one we
    should blame things on. He doesn’t make us sin. We make our own choices. So who are you listening to? God or the Devil?

    • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

      do you really think God is the one causing the horror in this world?

      Nope. God doesn’t exist.

      So who are you listening to? God or the Devil?

      Neither. They don’t exist.

      Really, my lack of belief in any gods has nothing to do with anger or hatred or blame.

      • Alice Mayloe

        Really? Then what does it have to do with?

        • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

          Then what does what have to do with what? Buried in your comment were two simple questions which indicate that you don’t understand atheism. I simply tried to answer your questions so as to give you a better understanding of what ‘atheism’ actually means.

          You’re free to believe whatever you like about God. But we don’t have a problem with God or Satan, since we don’t think God or Satan exist.

          We sometimes take issue with other people telling us what God says.

          If I told you “It’s a sin to eat pasta on Fridays because the Flying Spaghetti Monster Forbids it”, and then tried to pass laws against eating pasta on Fridays, I suspect you’d take issue with that, even though you don’t believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

          • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

            Oh sorry, now I think I get your question. “Why am I angry?”

            Most of the time I’m not angry.

            Like I said, other people judging me based on what I do or do not believe about gods. Other people telling me what to do solely based on their understanding of God.

            I don’t have time for a laundry list, right now, but there are a lot of things that people do in the name of various gods that make me angry. And they should make you angry too. And I don’t care if you say it’s God or Satan or False Christians or whatever you want. People’s belief in God is a factor in them doing some pretty horrible things.

            And for the record, here’s the ‘go to’ list: http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2007/10/atheists-and-an.html

          • Alice Mayloe

            I understand atheism just fine thank you. And you were not trying to help me understand it. You were being a smartass about my earlier comment. And obviously you do have a problem with God since you don’t believe in him. I’m not trying to shove my beliefs down your throat. I left my comment for people who don’t believe in God just because of things like diseases.

            • http://squeakysoapbox.com/ Rich Wilson

              I answered your questions. Period. If you don’t like my answers, perhaps Mathew 7 might be more to your taste.

          • Alice Mayloe

            I never said you couldn’t be angry. Everyone gets angry. I have a horrible temper, but that doesn’t stop me from trying to follow God. I’m not shoving my beliefs down your throat. I’m trying to say that there is a God and even if you don’t want to believe eventually you will know the truth.

          • Alice Mayloe

            I never said you couldn’t be angry. Everyone gets angry. I have a horrible temper, but that doesn’t stop me from trying to follow God. I’m not shoving my beliefs down your throat. I’m trying to say that there is a God and even if you don’t want to believe eventually you will know the truth.


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