This is Why Atheists *Should Not* Teach Their Kids About Santa Claus

The video below, part of The Atheist Voice series, explains reasons atheists should not teach their kids about Santa:

What’s that? You think atheist parents *should* teach their kids about Santa Claus? Well, there’s a video for that, too!

We’d love to hear your thoughts on the project — more videos will be posted soon — and we’d also appreciate your suggestions as to which questions we ought to tackle next!

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  • BrandySpears

    Nonsense. Make believe is a fun part of childhood. I never assumed my parents were liars because of the Santa Claus story.

  • Nat Carr

    I didn’t find Santa particularly fun. I can’t remember ever actually believing in him. I always knew that the “santa” gifts came from other people, and it always frustrated me that I wasn’t allowed to thank those people. It felt like I was keeping up a charade for my mother’s benefit, not actually enjoying the season.

    And my childhood was steeped in “make believe”. I grew up reading Tolkein, playing with legos, playing dungeons and dragons, running around with plastic swords, etc. There’s a difference between indulging imagination and insisting that a fantasy is real.

  • http://www.flickr.com/photos/chidy/ chicago dyke

    this.

  • monyNH

    It was the same for me. Santa was, and continues to be, a symbol of generosity and fun. I like that I can give gifts to the people (and pets!) that I love without needing a thank you–giving for the sake of giving, and expecting nothing in return. I know you don’t need a white-bearded figure for that, but we enjoy the play and the fantasy. It’s not unlike telling ghost stories at Halloween, really–I don’t know why it has to be made into such a big deal. Do it or not, who cares? To each their own!

  • NoMoreDivision

    Make believe is fun for children (and adults, lol). But when the parents are telling the children it’s for real, then it’s really not playing make believe anymore, is it?

  • Matthew Ford

    Agreed, it is fun until it is taken literally, and weather we think it teaches deliberate false concepts or not…it does.

  • Brian Macker

    So tell them it is make believe.

  • Conuly

    Its not make-believe when your child really believes it.

  • Dreezeez

    Santa is fun. This is the first year that both of my kids do not believe in Santa anymore. I am not a huge fan of the holidays in general but Santa is harmless fun and it hasn’t had any negative effect on my children. In fact, I am pretty sure that it has taught them a significant lesson in skepticism. We have the Flying Spaghetti monster on top of our tree and we try to have a good time. Happy Heathen Holidays!

  • NoMoreDivision

    First time I heard that greeting…Happy Heathen Holidays right back at you!

  • PrimateZero

    I agree, it’s just fun for the adults and the kids. Now both my children know the truth about Santa and like you stated it will teach them ” a significant lesson in skepticism”. Now they will be a tough target for the fundies.

  • paulalovescats

    Actually, I still believed in god when my son was born, but I did NOT want the stupidity and the hassle and the blackmail. I let him believe just long enough till he could understand why not to ruin it for other kids who still believed. Then I told him to think of Santa as a cartoon character, fun to talk about but not real. I’m not sure if he ruined it for anyone.

  • NoMoreDivision

    All thoughtful reasons (especially #7 – what kid doesn’t feel special being in the loop with the adults?). I told my kids the truth about Santa from the get-go and it never scarred them or took away from that magical feeling of Christmas. Kids are masters at playing pretend, so don’t believe the hype that telling them the truth about Santa is going to spoil their fun any.

  • Bec

    I am deliberately and cheerfully evasive but avoid making a definite statement that Santa is real or not real if directly asked. I know that my children are clever and will figure it out on their own, but I suspect that they willingly go along with the charade to get more gifts, which is fine by me. I get too much enjoyment out of playing Santa to want to stop.:-)

  • TravellingBeard

    Speaking as a non-parent, I think there’s nothing wrong with doing so, especially if you are good about teaching your child critical thinking at an early age. introduce him/her to Santa, and make sure, whenever you give them gifts from both you and Santa, make sure yours are bigger and more impressive.

  • Guest

    My son loves ‘The Polar Express’ because he’s really into trains and music. I wasn’t really worried about this point, it was more of a thought but, I don’t care for the plot or the moral of the story ‘believing.’

    The thing that bothers me most about the whole thing, as was pointed out in the video, is that parents are lying to their kids about a lie. It’s one thing to teach them the lesson of giving but the focus is steered towards teaching them to ask for what they want. Honestly, I prefer the Christian lesson of the three wise men traveling far to give gifts to a poor woman who just gave birth than about flying reindeer and an old guy who stuffs him-self down a chimney to bring them presents. I don’t teach them either but, to each their own.

  • Madison Blane

    A suggestion:
    My mom told me “Santa is only real for as long as you believe in him.” This gave me permission to figure it out on my own and incentive not to spoil it for other kids for whom he was still real. I understood that it was all imaginary and based on what I thought and I loved for her to read stories to me that involved imagination. If you feel that telling your kids ‘Santa is real’ would be lying, there’s nothing wrong with telling them the story of Santa and letting them imagine and pretend!

  • Sweet Asian Diva

    I’m a single parent and told my 3 year old that Santa is not real. Oh, Boy, all the attack I got from all my friends. So what, can I let her grow up faster than other dumb kids.

  • Matthew Ford

    I think you will find that telling your child that Santa is not real, will not take away the joy of the rest of the holiday at all.

  • David McNerney

    Why did you tell your friends?

  • BillyJoe

    We didn’t tell our children either way. They just assumed Santa Claus was make believe and enjoyed it like they enjoyed any number of make believe games they made up themselves throughout the year.
    They’ve also never believed in God, even though we specifically didn’t give our own opinion on the matter.
    Four sceptics/atheists are making their journey into the future and they’ve never even thought of themselves as such. It’s just normal for them, unlike their parents who had to struggle against the clutches of blind faith. We spared them that.

  • anon atheist

    I have to criticise two things:
    1) You are constructing a false dichotomy between either force-feeding the myth to your children until they accuse you of lying or virtually preemptively telling your children that Santa is not real and that they should not listen to the other kids. But there really are options in between.
    2) If you fundamentally insist on not lying to your children you would have to tell them the truth the as soon as they ask the first critical question. This is not encouraging critical enquiry or going to teach them how to think critically. It is even counterproductive in the sense that in real life people are not going to fold at the first critical question.

  • Randay

    The Mehta’s commentary is silly. We read Dr. Seuss, “The Grinch who stole Christmas” and many other fairy tales to our kids. Some like to hear the stories several times and others want to hear others. Should we stop reading the Grimm brothers too? I find that stories such as Santa stimulate children’s imagination. Should we tell small children that all the tales we tell them are false? Julia Sweeny has a good story about that in her “Letting go of God”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtIyx687ytk

    Of course people who still believe in a Santa figure now called Jesus after the age of 7 do have a problem.

  • Amor DeCosmos

    Damn you Hemant, I spent an hour writing you a rant about this video, as I watched it. I am totally pro-Santa myth and use it as a tool for teaching “critical thought” and “questioning authority” to my kids… and then I actually got to the end of the video and watched your own rebuttal video and deleted my rant and went to bed and slept well. Thanks.
    http://youtu.be/cNK20IiVXRo

  • David McNerney

    The assumption here is that lying is a bad thing. Fundamentally I don’t agree with this.

    Lying in kids is fascinating – it actually starts to happen around the age of 4 or 5, and the reason they start lying is not because they’ve been possessed by Satan, but because their level of awareness has increased. From the moment they are born they make massive awareness jumps – awareness of their environment, awareness of other people, awareness of themselves.

    And then awareness that other people have a different perspective from them – this is the basis of lying, because once you realize that other people see the world differently from you, then you realize that you can manipulate the other person’s viewpoint.

    However, this leads to the next stage of awareness – one of the most important ones – being able to see imagine a situation from someone else’s point of view – or, in one word, empathy.

    And that’s a very good thing.

    So, hooray for lying – especially white lies that are just for fun, and are not perpetuated.

  • Heather Pioro

    Up until this year I had convinced both of my children that I was a fairytale style “good” witch. Why? Because I’m still mostly a kid myself, and part of the beauty of childhood is how open and willing the imagination is. It tickled my heart when they gasped with delight after hearing me chastise the cat in the garage for chewing on one of my “flying brooms”. The logic that comes with age has led them both to understand that I’m not making potions in the kitchen…and that Santa is not real. They are not harboring resentments, but learning to appreciate the magic of make believe…and separate it from reality.

  • Celestine Stoltenberg

    When we became atheists, we talked to the kids about the Santa myth (my oldest was around 7 years old). We had gone to some length to convince them of the magic prior to that. My 7 year old was quite offended (which is part of his personality, he hates feeling like people have made a fool of him). My younger kids were a bit confused mostly because they were faced with teachers and extended family (adults who they are *supposed* to listen to) that Santa was definitely real. They also wanted to know about the presents that we had laid out labeled as from Santa. It didn’t take long for my kids to decide that getting presents from mom and dad was more special than getting presents from a mystical fairy stranger.

    Part of the reason we talked to them about it is because at the time we felt strongly about the idea that teaching the santa myth primes people for accepting the god myth. I see where people are coming from about using the santa myth to teach children critical thinking, but I don’t think that requires children to actually believe in santa in the first place. Neither do I believe that childhood requires a literal belief in magic or that without literally believing in magic children cannot enjoy a healthy and wild imagination.

  • Ryan

    I did not lie to my kids. But their grand parents did. They begged to not “ruin” it for them. We did experiments like putting out oatmeal for the reindeer which led to only rabbit tracks. The Santa snacks were always untouched if the kids were in my house for Christmas.

  • Dianne Leonard

    I liked the vid about why you shouldn’t teach your kids about Santa, and agree with it. Just to add a little filip: Bill Cosby does a routine about Christmas and says, “I have a little girl, and so sad, she doesn’t believe in Santa. Why not? Well, she knows damn well ain’t no white man coming to our neighborhood at midnight.” I still love stories about Santa, of which there are many, and have a whole half-shelf of books about Christmas. But that’s just reading fantasy. Doesn’t have anything to do w/ parenting. I don’t have kids, by the way, but if I did, I think I’d be honest with them from the get-go, and let them figure out the Santa story.

  • allein

    My friend did the Elf on the Shelf thing last year; her son is 5 now and she asked him at the beginning of December if he remembered how an elf named Stanley came to the house last year. He said “Yeah, but he wasn’t real.” (To which her reaction was, “…and now I don’t have to figure out 24 things to do with that damn elf!”) I don’t know if he still believes in Santa. Her daughter’s only two; I don’t know if she’ll try it again on her in a year or two or not.

  • Catherine Lugg

    I was raised NOT to believe in santa claus. This was thanks to the influence of my mom’s mom, who thought it was all expensive twaddle (Christmas–across the board). So, I can remember her taking me outside and asking me to point to name the parts of our house. Eventually, I got to the chimney, where she asked me if I went down the chimney, where would I got?? (The Furnace!!!!). She laughed, I laughed, and then she said, “Now there’s no need to believe in Santa, right?” I agreed. I felt like an adult had let me IN on the joke.

  • Erwin

    Merry Christmas to you all! He is born! He has lived! He has died! He is risen! He now reigns ! He is soon to come again, for you and me. , His Elect of God, if this , you too believe, Amen ( may it be so )!

  • OjisanSeiuchi

    Evidence?

  • Erwin

    Look in the mirror! You’re not the master of your own creation let alone your own destiny, though you may think differently, nothing is left to chance but to Divine Purpose. As you were once born against your will, you likewise must be Born Again from God by His , not your will for the evidence you seek!

  • Conuly

    Wow, I never heard that before! You’re right! Hail Mithras, the Unconquered Sun!

    Erwin, I believe your work here is done. I will continue to share the good news, have no fear.

  • Erwin

    “Conuly”, isnt that an Italian dessert pastry? Well, what do I know? About as much as you do about the inability of man’s free will choice to do anything but ‘what is right in his own eyes( and not God’s), you too might want to look in the mirror, you might be surprised by what you see. Mithra, as all of the other world false religions, never taught the inability of man’s free will to do good , less to know, believe or follow the True God, but like the rest , was an imposter religion mimicking, by the foreshadowing of Satan in this case, the True Messiah, Jesus Christ, to come. Read my other recent posts to learn further of our inability to seek,know or believe in God apart from His will and empowering.

  • Conuly

    No, that’s a cannoli. And it is DELICIOUS.

    Erwin, if we don’t actually have free will, why are you wasting your time telling us this awful news? None of it matters.

  • Erwin

    Ha Ha, agreed , about the dessert that is. Waste of time? On the contrary, we are one of the means by which God fulfills His will, He allows us to participate as He ,not we ,sees fit . Enjoying the conversation so far? I rest my case, to you , proclaimer of Mithra!

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    If God uses us to fulfill his will but only so much as he pulls the puppet strings, that’s pretty evil (and completely denies all free will, which is yet another evil aspect because of the whole sending some people to Hell thing).

  • Erwin

    How successful has man been so far pulling ‘his own strings ‘ beyond succeeding in tying a noose around his own neck , sealing his fate and that of others , now that’s evil: give me God ‘s strings anyday, at least He knows what He’s doing and actually has a plan, unlike you or I if left to ourselves, like Judas, would only succeed in hanging ourselves, but Judas couldnt even do that right, oh most pitiful men that we are , apart from Christ. Read my most recent posts in my profile on the inability of man’s free will to do anything good( in God’s eyes) apart from His intervention , we can only do evil and sin.

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    What fate have we sealed, what strings have we tied into a noose? Besides, I thought you said God only let us do what he would let us do. That means any nooses tied are by God’s will.

    If God’s plan involves starving children, cancer, malaria, and guinea worms, then fuck him. I could do better without even trying if I had infinite cosmic power, and I’m just a mere mortal. How evil does a deity have to be to create those things just for shits and giggles?

  • Erwin

    Did you say, “If I were God, I could do better”? When I last looked, His job wasnt available for the taking, let alone to you or anyone else for that matter. As far as ,’ for the world’s present situation’, the end ( God’s glory and praise ) is justified by the means, ( a fallen world full of sinners of whom He Elects some to share in the benefits of His holiness ). Like it or not, that’s the way it is, and nothing you do or dont do or believe wont change that, unless of course you become God; I wont stay up waiting for that to happen. But for now,how’s your noose coming along? We tie the noose ( by our will that’s free only to sin and not do good) but only He can loosen it from our necks ( by His saving grace and His choice to do so, not ours, for we are incapable of even seeking God, let alone believing in Him , apart from Him willing it so).

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    So we have free will except God determines all our actions. We all have nooses around our necks that God tied there, but only God can untie them, and he won’t do that unless you grovel sufficiently and even then maybe not. His grand, “perfect” plan involves the needless suffering and deaths of children.

    Why don’t you think this deity is evil, again? A person who brainwashed you and controlled all your actions, refused to undo the harm he himself had wrought unless you grovelled, and murdered children would be in jail forever and ever.

  • Erwin

    Again you seem to be claiming the role of God, sorry, position closed. Our wills are only free to sin and do evil, not to obey God or of doing anything good or unaffected by our fallen nature’s desire only to sin, apart from God causing us to be Born Again, spiritually. When that happens, then we’ll be in agreement, ’til then, ‘the noose we continue to braid, with our own strings, not God’s ‘puppet strings’, which are Holy and enslave not.’ A conversation of original sin, the fall ( spiritual death ) of man and the nonexistent notion of ‘man’s will being free to choose good or God, ( rather than enslaved to sin) would be beneficial to discuss, if you’d like?

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    I’m discussing the character of your god, actually. No godliness on my part required, merely basic human decency. If I’m more moral than your god, in all my flaws and mortality, that says really terrible things about your god. And if your god made people as they are, imperfect and prone to hurting people (sin is a bullshit concept with no actual meaning), then your god is an immoral, terrible being who deserves being shunned but certainly not worshiped.

    You literally think that your god, perfect and loving, created people who were evil and bad, and then offered them the only “solution” if they groveled before him. Tell me again why that’s not evil?

  • Erwin

    Again, “groveling before Him” is a concept of free will decision to do so, which doesnt exist, as evidenced by you not desiring to do, as I keep telling you . Christians dont ” grovel before God or serve Him out of fear by some free will decision to do so, but by the empowering and enlightening of His Holy spirit resulting in being born anew spiritually ( born again) by the will and call of God , and not any decision on their part. We just respond by the selfsame spirit which now enables us to do so. Man’s unwillingness to acknowledge the impotence of his free will to accomplish anything good, is the bondage of selfsame will to sin that I keep explaining to you, but for now, you too are unable to abandon your reliance also on the concept that you too possess a power of free choice that in reality doesnt exist, but in your elevated ego and mind that’s centered on self and not God, this is your fallen nature Ive been talking about. In God’s time and not yours, you too will”see the light” and understand, if you too are Elect and called by Him. Only time will tell,keep asking questions, and “ask and it will be given to you, seek and youll find ,knock and the door will be opened to you” ( if youre Elect of God).

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    What? You’re not making sense. Free will doesn’t exist because I don’t want to grovel before anyone or anything? Please elaborate.

    And Christians totally grovel out of fear. “Grovel or I torture you forever” is a threat. If a man tell his girlfriend “hug me or I’ll hit you”, we call that abuse. If a deity tells anyone the same thing, that’s also abuse.

    And if God only calls some people, as you say, then God is condemning all those people he doesn’t call to Hell. Which is a vicious, immoral, evil thing to do.

  • Erwin

    Thanks for your replies and interest and questions. You not only will not ( by your will’s choice to only and always oppose God -ie. sin) to worship God but cannot ( by your will’s inability to do so). ” None are righteous , no ,not one; no one understands. No one seeks for God. No one does good, not even one. ” Romans 3:10-12, Psalm 14:3. Considering man’s inability to seek God but ability to rebel against Him by sinning, then Hell is not ment as a deterrent but the consequence of such rebellion. Christians are both willing and now able to love God ( not ‘grovel out of fear of going to hell, as you misconstrue) because God , in His mercy ( not giving men what they deserve- judgement) and grace ( giving men what they dont deserve- forgiveness) first loved them by sending Christ to take their judgement . “We love Him because He first loved us”. 1 John 4:19. ” For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish , but have eternal life.” John 3:16. ( read the entire chapter 3 of John for a fuller understanding ).

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    So God made people, decided they suck because he made them imperfect, condemned them to eternal torture for not being perfect even though he made them imperfect, told a really unbelievable story about a dude who was both god and man who died temporarily sorta kinda in order to save people from the Hell God himself had created but only if you believe this totally ridiculous story, and he isn’t evil? If a person created a sentient robot, then decided ze didn’t like it and tortured it even for a little bit, then promised to stop if the robot worshiped hir, we’d call that person evil. How much more evil is an all-powerful entity that does the same thing?

    Why do you think people are inherently bad? Why do you think anyone, let alone all people, deserve eternal torture? What has twisted you so badly that you don’t trust your own inherent empathetic instincts?

  • Erwin

    Man cannot save himself from his self-deluded thinking that he is inherently good, and it is this delusion that condemns him . ” For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23. As far as man being inherently evil, just watch the evening news or roam some dark alley late at night in the worst part of town or better yet stay in the comfort of your home with your doors and windows unlocked and open and go to bed for a restful night sleep . I rest my case. As far as suffering goes, read the book of Job for the two points of view we are discussing here, one,’curse God and die’, two ‘ though He slay me , yet will I trust in Him. “The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord”. “In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong.”Job 1:21-22.

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    So people are only evil. There isn’t a quiet story of people helping for every crime that is committed. Altruism doesn’t exist. Charity is a lie. The fact that some people hurt other people (often out of the depths of their own pain and desperation, though not always) means that all humans are depraved. The child giving someone a kiss to make them feel better is just proof that the world is a terrible place and the people volunteering at soup kitchens are clearly awful specimens of humanity. Up is down, black is white, slavery is freedom, and torture is love.

    Isn’t the story of Job a story of how God is an evil entity, who tortured a man and killed his family on a bet? You really, truly think that is going to convince me your god is good?

    Wow. Your world is a horrible place to live. I suggest you come out of your hidey-hole and embrace the world as it is. It’s not nearly so scary as you think.

  • Erwin

    God indeed is good, but only He can convince you of that not me. ” Why do you call me good ? there is none good but one, God”. Mark 10:18. Yes, people are inherently evil in the respect that they, like you, deny the goodness of God, and in their own self righteousness declare themselves more moral, compassionate and loving than God, who created them and gave them life, whether they accept or believe that themselves, does not change that reality, but in essence pronounes themselves as a rivaling deity, which is absurd, at the least, since they had no say or contribution in their physical birth , as likewise they will have none in their spiritual birth( being Born Again ) thus refuting any creative power on their part. The fact that you cant see that affirms your continual rebellion to God ‘s sovereignty until the time He and not you sees fit to call, save ,redeem, forgive, enlighten ( take your pick ) you. Hopefully, sooner than later, ’til then , you may find John 3 and Job, the entire book, thought provoking, to say the least. Believe it or not, I too once asked the same questions that you do, but have learned I couldnt “let go and let God” , a choice we dont want to, let alone can make on our own, but had to ” let God be God” and step out of the way, but only after He allowed and enabled me to do that.

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    I judge people and beings by their actions, not their words. Any being that commits genocide++ (global flood) and tortures anyone for eternity is not good. Any being that created malaria, the guinea worm, cancer, and food distribution failures is not good. Why do you think God is good? What could possibly lead you to that conclusion?

    You seem to think that I think gods exist and I’m rebelling against them. You’re wrong. I think they’re like unicorns and faeries and Bigfoot- mythical tales that aren’t real. It’s awfully hard to rebel against something that doesn’t exist. However, if your god was real, he’d be the most evil being in existence and most certainly not worthy of worship. And if your god chooses to crush my mind and “call” me by completely erasing my free will, empathy, decency, and logical faculties, well, that’s also evil.

    Your entire world view is logically incoherent, just so you know. You say that I’m rebelling, but that god controls everything, so god is making me rebel, but somehow that’s still my fault? How does that work?

  • Erwin

    Fallen man is totally responsible for his sin, for ” God cannot sin” , ” and isnt evil but good.” God is totally responsible for all that is good, ” for only God is good.” God is 100% responsible for our salvation but we are 100 % responsible for our sin and rebellion. In all of this God is glorified, in both the salvation of the lost and damnation and judgement of the wicked. God’s perfect holiness and justice demands this by His very definition and character. Whether we understand this now fully is irregardless , ” for now we see through a glass,darkly , but then, face to face.;now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known.” 1 Corinthians 3:12. Job knew this truth throughout but more so, after his suffering. We as Christians affirm this truth also, by the knowledge of God’s Holy Spirit and word within us. What we say or think apart from God ‘s revealed word does not negate the reality of it for reasons I aforementioned concerning our birth and spiritual rebirth. In the end, it’s all up to God and for His, not our glory, Amen !( may it be so). Concerning God destroying ‘your free will to do anything good( ie- untainted by your fallen nature to sin ) , how can God destroy something that doesnt exist? That ‘s the true fairy tale. ” But the natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14.

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    In all of this God is glorified, in both the salvation of the lost and damnation and judgement of the wicked. God’s perfect holiness and justice demands this by His very definition and character.

    God tortures people. That is neither holy nor just. How can you not see that?

    God chooses not to save everyone, and then tortures them for his failure. That is neither holy nor just. How can you not see that?

  • Erwin

    “…Eye has not seen, nor ear heard , nor have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” 1Corinthians 2:9. ” All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him ( Christ ) the iniquity of us all,” Isaiah 53:6. “And we know that all things work together for good ( for the Glory of God, who alone is good) to ( towards and through) them that love God , to them who are called according to His purpose.” Romans 8:28. ” So, whether you eat or drink , or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” 1 Corinthians 10:31. “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins , in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air,the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature, children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ- by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not the result of works, so no one may boast.” Ephesians 2:1-10.

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    You are quoting random things at me. This is not an effective strategy.

    Please actually engage my points with your own brain and your own abilities at critical thinking. God tortures people. God chooses not to save everyone, and then tortures them for his failure. Please explain how this is compatible with a loving or good deity.

  • Erwin

    God is not obligated to save anyone but fully justified to damning us all to Hell. From the very beginning God has had His Elect , those He chose to bless and save from sin and themselves (vessels of honor, who honor and obey Him) and those He chose to leave in their sinful state of unbelief ( vessels of dishonor, who rebel against Him and dishonor Him). Examples of honored: Elect angels, Adam, Eve , Abel,Seth, Job, Noah, Abraham,Lot, Isaac ,Jacob ,Moses and David. (” Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated”). ( “David a man after God’s own heart”.) Examples of dishonored: Satan and fallen angels, for sure , everyone else, only God knows , He’s the final judge, not me. I’ll side on His mercy and grace. Being in the presence of or being offspring of the Elect sanctifies you (by reaping the blessings of God also) but doesnt quarantee ones election also, that’s God’s choice. ” you have not chosen me , but I have chosen you.” John 14:16. It was through His Elect that the promise of the Messiah was to come, that being Christ Jesus, in which God’s Sabbath rest for His Elect is fulfilled, the Elect’s ‘ark of salvation,’ to protect them from the judgement to come upon the world and from Hell itself. ” I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father , but by me ( Jesus Christ).” John 14:6.

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    Your god created people he then condemned to eternal torture, but he saves a few of them.

    This is very evil behavior. Random Bible quotes don’t change the fact that the behavior, and thus the entity doing the behavior, is evil.

    How do you justify this to yourself?

  • Erwin

    Try Moses : 1- You shall have no other Gods before me. 2-you shall not worship idols. 3- You shall not use the Lord’s name in vain( as also by false teachings). 4- You shall honor the Sabbath ( fulfilled in Christ Jesus). 5- You shall honor your father and your mother ( and the instruction they gave you as a child about the Lord your God). 6- Dont kill ! 7- Dont commt adultery! 8- Dont steal! 9- Dont lie ! 10- Dont covet!

  • http://bearlyatheist.wordpress.com/ Bear Millotts

    Hey, this is fun. Just quote something and say it covers it!

    How about this one:

    ‘You cannot pass,’ he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ‘I am servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’ — Gandalf confronting the Balrog of Moria, The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter 4: The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

    Yep, that covers it!

  • Erwin

    “As in the days of Noah…as in the days of Lot… So shall be the coming of the Son of man.” You ready?

  • http://bearlyatheist.wordpress.com/ Bear Millotts

    Noah? Lot? Son of man? What bullshit is this?

    None of them are worthy to be compared to Conan!

    “Know, O prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars – Nemedia, Ophir, Brythunia, Hyperborea, Zamora with its dark-haired women and towers of spider-haunted mystery, Zingara with its chivalry, Koth that bordered on the pastoral lands of Shem, Stygia with its shadow-guarded tombs, Hyrkania whose riders wore steel and silk and gold. But the proudest kingdom of the world was Aquilonia, reigning supreme in the dreaming west. Hither came Conan the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.” — The Nemedian Chronicles

    Are you ready for Conan?

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    The Sabbath is the day of rest. How exactly is Jesus a fulfillment of a day of rest? Do we not get weekends anymore because Jesus? That’s rather awful.

    You’re telling me what the book says. I know what the book says. I’ve read it. Why are those good laws, and why are the punishments not ridiculously over-the-top and thus show the evil nature of the character handing them down?

    Here are the punishments for violating those commandments:

    1. No gods before me. Punishment: genocide.
    2. No graven images. Punishment: genocide.
    3. No taking god’s name in vain. Punishment: death.
    4. Remember sabbath, keep it holy. Punishment: death.
    5. Honor parents. Punishment: death.
    6. No adultery. Punishment: death.
    7. Don’t kill. Punishment: varies, sometimes death.
    8. Don’t steal. Punishment: fines, enslavement or death.
    9. No false witness. Punishment: despisement and scorn.
    10. Don’t covet. Punishment: despisement and scorn.

    Source with biblical citations: http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=16785

    Do also note that the actual crimes that hurt people are punished much less severely than crimes that hurt God’s feelings. Again: megalomaniacal evil here.

  • Erwin

    Jesus is’Lord of the Sabbath’ Matthew 12:8. By faith in Christ we cease from our works of the Law and animal sacrifice alone as the means to earn salvation and trust and rest by faith in His finished work of atonement for our sins ( as Abraham by faith believed God and offered Isaac as a sacrifice, well knowing ‘ my son, God will provide Himself( literally in Christ , His incarnate Son) a lamb for a burnt offering. ‘Genesis 22:8. The true sons of Abraham are those of faith also, and not just birthright alone. Galatians 3:5-9. As far as the harshness of the Law’s punishments, a purified people was necessary to bring forth a perfect Messiah and also foreshadowed the harsh eternal consequences of breaking the least of God’s Law without a lasting atonement for sin, found only by faith in the Messiah ‘s final sacrifice of Himself, in Christ’s death. Hebrews 10:12.

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    You’re quoting random things again. Answer my questions without a single bible verse, but only your own words. Why is a god that punishes worshiping other gods with genocide of a whole people not an evil god?

  • Erwin

    “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord.” Isaiah 55:8. “Thou shall have no other gods before me.” Exodus 20:3. And that includes yourself! “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom , and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.” Proverbs 9:10. ” “Therefore shall you lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.” Deuteronomy 11:18.

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    Your. Own. Words. Why is genocide not evil?

  • OjisanSeiuchi

    I looked in the mirror and found only myself. Seriously, if you desire to recruit followers, you need to offer more than “Look in the mirror.” as evidence that we should accept this perspective.

  • Erwin

    My point exactly, ’til God opens your eyes to see Him in all His creation, starting with you, all you’ll ever be able to see is yourself, and nothing more or anything less, for without Him, we are the vilest of creatures.

  • OjisanSeiuchi

    My wife and I agree on almost everything except the Santa business. I despise it; but to make peace, when my daughter – age 5 – asks questions about how Santa does this or that, I answer “I don’t know” or “Yes, it doesn’t make sense.” Or “I’ve heard some people claim…” Mostly keeps me out of hot water.

    I’m looking forward to the day when we can turn her disbelief in Santa into a learning experience about critical thinking and the power of sincere wishes to foster group delusions.

    Interestingly, my same Santa-believing daughter says she doesn’t believe in gods. When I asked her why, she claimed that it was “…because you can’t see them.”

    Belief and disbelief is fluid in children; and that’s a good thing if we want critical thinkers for kids. I’d prefer to have nothing to do with the Santa narrative; but until someone conducts rigorous research into any putative harms, I’m going to regard it as fairly harmless.