“The confident independence of Lutherans”?

(Non-Lutheran readers, you may want to skip this post. I don’t want you to get annoyed, but please bear with me with this reflection on Lutheran identity. Though actually, you could probably help.)

Hey, we Lutherans got a shout-out in Mitt Romney’s Mormon speech! He didn’t mention Baptists or Calvinists, but he mentioned Lutherans! And we almost never get mentioned in surveys of American religion. (OK, according to the Adherents site, there are lots of Lutherans in Mormon-heavy Western states, and Iowa ranks 6th in per-capita Lutheranism.) Here is what Mr. Romney said:

“I believe that every faith I have encountered draws its adherents closer to God. And in every faith I have come to know, there are features I wish were in my own: I love the profound ceremony of the Catholic Mass, the approachability of God in the prayers of the Evangelicals, the tenderness of spirit among the Pentecostals, the confident independence of the Lutherans, the ancient traditions of the Jews, unchanged through the ages, and the commitment to frequent prayer of the Muslims. As I travel across the country and see our towns and cities, I am always moved by the many houses of worship with their steeples, all pointing to heaven, reminding us of the source of life’s blessings.”

But does he really get Lutheranism right? Do we have “confident independence”? Confidence, yes, but independence? Is he confusing us with the Baptists, after all? Does that mean we are still invisible within American Christendom? Frankly, I think at our best that we exemplify ALL of those traits he hails, though I recognize that we are not always at our best. (See that lack of confidence?)

Paul S, in a comment on an earlier post about Romney, raised this quotation and thought “confident independence” had to do with “stubbornness.” May be. Any other takes on what Romney may have been thinking of?

What would be a more accurate way to characterize Lutherans? “The ______ _______ of the Lutherans.” Billy Graham might say “the sleeping giganticism of the Lutherans.” Bob Jones might say “the doctrinal strength and the moral weakness of the Lutherans.” Garrison Keillor might say, “the gloomy whimsey of the Lutherans.” What would you say?

HT: Bob Hunter

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    I suspect he was describing Luther himself, and generalizing from our founder to the whole church body, which, frankly, flatters us.

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    I suspect he was describing Luther himself, and generalizing from our founder to the whole church body, which, frankly, flatters us.

  • fwsonnek

    my vote is for the “radical Christo-centricity” of Lutheranism.

    May I respectfully point out that this also does not grace-fully fit into a two word phrase?

    1)It is not well suited for bumpersticker or mission statements to assert our “confident independence” agressively to a tailgater (“honk if you love Jesus” now!!). Colapse eternity: “He Who was slain before the world´s foundation ” to 4″x12″ sheet of glued plastic?

    2) It´s is not well suited for sound bites or motivational seminars. The process of “Oratio, meditatio, tentatio” is not fast OR attractive OR motivational in any conventional sense. It is not even “results-oriented” now is it. It is focussed on Christ and not on us, not even in that “tentatio” part.

    3) It is not suited for doctrinal wonks or even apologists or folks who like to argue a point really because it is not based on a philosophy or set or propositions moral or otherwise. It is about a historical person: Who is is, what did He do, and why did He do it. Journalism. Proclamation.

    4) It isn´t suited as a formula for results-oriented moral betterment in civil society. How do you fix something that cannot be fixed believing everything has already been done to fix it? We Lutherans use the SAME tools as the pagans here to infuse God-pleasing order into society, without thinking we can truly “fix” anything at all.

    We actually declare formally and publicly that there is “nothing more needed to be added” to those pagan tools (given as an example in our official confessions (Ap AC) is the logical system of that pagan Arostotle who had no claim to a belief in “transcendent authority or morality” (!)) in the civil realm. While maybe not independent or confident, THAT is different!

    It´s not about us. It is about filling those two blank spaces with the only two things that look right to a true Lutheran. Those words are….

    Jesus Christ

    He fills ALL things EVEN when WE don´t fill in the blanks just right.

    Trust that that is so!

    Trust Him.

  • fwsonnek

    my vote is for the “radical Christo-centricity” of Lutheranism.

    May I respectfully point out that this also does not grace-fully fit into a two word phrase?

    1)It is not well suited for bumpersticker or mission statements to assert our “confident independence” agressively to a tailgater (“honk if you love Jesus” now!!). Colapse eternity: “He Who was slain before the world´s foundation ” to 4″x12″ sheet of glued plastic?

    2) It´s is not well suited for sound bites or motivational seminars. The process of “Oratio, meditatio, tentatio” is not fast OR attractive OR motivational in any conventional sense. It is not even “results-oriented” now is it. It is focussed on Christ and not on us, not even in that “tentatio” part.

    3) It is not suited for doctrinal wonks or even apologists or folks who like to argue a point really because it is not based on a philosophy or set or propositions moral or otherwise. It is about a historical person: Who is is, what did He do, and why did He do it. Journalism. Proclamation.

    4) It isn´t suited as a formula for results-oriented moral betterment in civil society. How do you fix something that cannot be fixed believing everything has already been done to fix it? We Lutherans use the SAME tools as the pagans here to infuse God-pleasing order into society, without thinking we can truly “fix” anything at all.

    We actually declare formally and publicly that there is “nothing more needed to be added” to those pagan tools (given as an example in our official confessions (Ap AC) is the logical system of that pagan Arostotle who had no claim to a belief in “transcendent authority or morality” (!)) in the civil realm. While maybe not independent or confident, THAT is different!

    It´s not about us. It is about filling those two blank spaces with the only two things that look right to a true Lutheran. Those words are….

    Jesus Christ

    He fills ALL things EVEN when WE don´t fill in the blanks just right.

    Trust that that is so!

    Trust Him.

  • http://www.shempel.blogspot.com Sarah in Maryland

    “boldly sinning Lutherans?”

  • http://www.shempel.blogspot.com Sarah in Maryland

    “boldly sinning Lutherans?”

  • Joe

    I think his characterization makes sense. We are certainly independent. We are not part of the mainstream protestants and we are not a mini-Rome. We are our own breed. Never easily categorized by observers. And I think we are more confident than others. We believe we are right; not just close enough but right. We also acknowledge that sometimes we don’t understand everything God has told us and our pastors will say, “I don’t know, we’ll never understand it until we meet Jesus face to face, but it is enough that God has told us.” For example the body and blood being in, with and under the bread and wine. And, we are confident enough in God’s promises that we do not resort to our own human reason to interpret scripture – scripture interprets scripture. That is true confidence in our Lord!

  • Joe

    I think his characterization makes sense. We are certainly independent. We are not part of the mainstream protestants and we are not a mini-Rome. We are our own breed. Never easily categorized by observers. And I think we are more confident than others. We believe we are right; not just close enough but right. We also acknowledge that sometimes we don’t understand everything God has told us and our pastors will say, “I don’t know, we’ll never understand it until we meet Jesus face to face, but it is enough that God has told us.” For example the body and blood being in, with and under the bread and wine. And, we are confident enough in God’s promises that we do not resort to our own human reason to interpret scripture – scripture interprets scripture. That is true confidence in our Lord!

  • http://www.pagantolutheran.blogspot.com Bruce

    I have a friend who characterizes Lutheran theology this way: “It is balanced precariously on the top of a sphere. If it slips slightly one way, it becomes Reformed. If it slips slightly another, Roman Catholic. And another, it becomes neo-evangelical…” and so on. Frank’s list of “outreach” challenges for Lutheranism is well put. And the point of it all is: the narrow way of Truth is no casual stroll. And casualness, or some such word, is the way we mass-communicate. As a new Lutheran coming from protestantism, it took some years of listening closely before I had a real grasp of the central core of Lutheran theology, and how it held everything together.

    As for the sphere analogy: historically, the Reformed were never very much threatened by Lutheran theology. Whenever the two–Lutheran and Reformed–were compelled to do worship together, eventually it became not Lutheran. So, while I am tempted to say that the analogy works for all versions of Christian theology, I am not at all sure that is true.

    As for Romney, he probably got his understanding of Lutheranism from Prairie Home Companion, like the rest of the civilized world.

  • http://www.pagantolutheran.blogspot.com Bruce

    I have a friend who characterizes Lutheran theology this way: “It is balanced precariously on the top of a sphere. If it slips slightly one way, it becomes Reformed. If it slips slightly another, Roman Catholic. And another, it becomes neo-evangelical…” and so on. Frank’s list of “outreach” challenges for Lutheranism is well put. And the point of it all is: the narrow way of Truth is no casual stroll. And casualness, or some such word, is the way we mass-communicate. As a new Lutheran coming from protestantism, it took some years of listening closely before I had a real grasp of the central core of Lutheran theology, and how it held everything together.

    As for the sphere analogy: historically, the Reformed were never very much threatened by Lutheran theology. Whenever the two–Lutheran and Reformed–were compelled to do worship together, eventually it became not Lutheran. So, while I am tempted to say that the analogy works for all versions of Christian theology, I am not at all sure that is true.

    As for Romney, he probably got his understanding of Lutheranism from Prairie Home Companion, like the rest of the civilized world.

  • Joanna Hensley

    The Word and Sacrament of Lutherans.

  • Joanna Hensley

    The Word and Sacrament of Lutherans.

  • Philip

    I don’t think we Lutherans should listen or care about a characterization of Lutherans or Lutheranism by a temple Mormon. Temple Mormons are those who have been sealed in a Mormon temple and know the truth of Mormonism. Mitt Romney has most certainly been sealed and married in a temple ceremony.
    Temple Mormons are very committed to Mormonism and will use the “big lie” that they are just another Christian group.

  • Philip

    I don’t think we Lutherans should listen or care about a characterization of Lutherans or Lutheranism by a temple Mormon. Temple Mormons are those who have been sealed in a Mormon temple and know the truth of Mormonism. Mitt Romney has most certainly been sealed and married in a temple ceremony.
    Temple Mormons are very committed to Mormonism and will use the “big lie” that they are just another Christian group.

  • JLarson

    Why would Bob Jones say “moral[ly] weak”? Less separation?

    I know some who would say “paradoxically invovled in culture” (do it, but not for an ultimate kingdom goal, just do it).

  • JLarson

    Why would Bob Jones say “moral[ly] weak”? Less separation?

    I know some who would say “paradoxically invovled in culture” (do it, but not for an ultimate kingdom goal, just do it).

  • http://castingoutnines.wordpress.com Robert Talbert

    Somehow, and maybe this is unfair, I find it highly unlikely that Romney knows one iota of true doctrinal information about Lutherans, certainly not enough to fill in those two little blanks on his own if somebody cornered him and made him do it. Perhaps I’m wrong.

    As for me, I fill in those blanks with “the relentless partying of the Lutherans”! (And somehow that brings to mind the Monty Python spanish inquisition sketch — “Fear! Surprise! And ruthless efficiency!”)

  • http://castingoutnines.wordpress.com Robert Talbert

    Somehow, and maybe this is unfair, I find it highly unlikely that Romney knows one iota of true doctrinal information about Lutherans, certainly not enough to fill in those two little blanks on his own if somebody cornered him and made him do it. Perhaps I’m wrong.

    As for me, I fill in those blanks with “the relentless partying of the Lutherans”! (And somehow that brings to mind the Monty Python spanish inquisition sketch — “Fear! Surprise! And ruthless efficiency!”)

  • http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com Andy Adams

    beer and pot-luck?

  • http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com Andy Adams

    beer and pot-luck?

  • Booklover

    Grace and Peace

    (although that doesn’t fit into the adjective-noun format.)

  • Booklover

    Grace and Peace

    (although that doesn’t fit into the adjective-noun format.)

  • Julie Voss

    I think Joe nailed it when he said we are our own breed. I was raised as a Lutheran and it wasn’t until I began homeschooling and was surrounded by other Christians (mainly of the Baptist traditions) that I realized how different we are from them. I think they regard Lutherans as partially reformed catholics.
    I am proud of our faith tradition. I find things to admire in other denominations but nothing I would trade away. Christ crucified is preached every Sunday. We worship God and He reaches out to us with the word and sacraments. We eagerly receive the Lord’s Supper with a joy and reverence I find unique among Christians. We are zealous when it comes to studying God’s word and keeping it pure for the coming generations. I wish our young people knew more about the heroes of our church. I think that is something we should work on.

  • Julie Voss

    I think Joe nailed it when he said we are our own breed. I was raised as a Lutheran and it wasn’t until I began homeschooling and was surrounded by other Christians (mainly of the Baptist traditions) that I realized how different we are from them. I think they regard Lutherans as partially reformed catholics.
    I am proud of our faith tradition. I find things to admire in other denominations but nothing I would trade away. Christ crucified is preached every Sunday. We worship God and He reaches out to us with the word and sacraments. We eagerly receive the Lord’s Supper with a joy and reverence I find unique among Christians. We are zealous when it comes to studying God’s word and keeping it pure for the coming generations. I wish our young people knew more about the heroes of our church. I think that is something we should work on.

  • Bror Erickson

    In the great tradition of Lutheran self-deprecation, I’m going to say “Easily flattered.” That we take this man at all seriously because he mentioned us in the middle of the most universalistic paragraph of any campaign speech, is not to our credit as Lutherans.
    I don’t know what he meant by confident independence. Personally I would rather like to be known as confidently dependent on Christ alone. No I doubt Romney knows a bit about Lutheranism, aside from a few Lutafisk jokes. And quite frankly, I don’t think I share anymore values with Romney than I do with any other candidate. I do like honesty and integrity, I didn’t find those values in his speach, but I don’t find them in his faith or the faith of his fathers either. By the way these would be two different things as each generation of Mormonism changes, the faith of his fathers was blatantly racist. I’ve met a few racist Lutherans, but they would be hard pressed to support their racism on religious grounds say finding it in the Bible, or the Confessions.

  • Bror Erickson

    In the great tradition of Lutheran self-deprecation, I’m going to say “Easily flattered.” That we take this man at all seriously because he mentioned us in the middle of the most universalistic paragraph of any campaign speech, is not to our credit as Lutherans.
    I don’t know what he meant by confident independence. Personally I would rather like to be known as confidently dependent on Christ alone. No I doubt Romney knows a bit about Lutheranism, aside from a few Lutafisk jokes. And quite frankly, I don’t think I share anymore values with Romney than I do with any other candidate. I do like honesty and integrity, I didn’t find those values in his speach, but I don’t find them in his faith or the faith of his fathers either. By the way these would be two different things as each generation of Mormonism changes, the faith of his fathers was blatantly racist. I’ve met a few racist Lutherans, but they would be hard pressed to support their racism on religious grounds say finding it in the Bible, or the Confessions.

  • http://livingliturgy.typepad.com Lewis

    I would probably say, “the stubborn blindness of the Lutherans.” It’s not that we don’t have our doctrine right. We do. But we’re so focused on making sure that everyone knows (note: not believes) that doctrine, that we forget to make sure that we’re helping our brother to strive to live the life of Christ in all they do.

    Simply put, we’ve forgotten to live out the ideals we espouse, confusing the ideas for reality.

    As for the “confidently independent” phrase, it almost feels like a slam to me. I don’t want to be so independent, I forget my other Christian brothers and sisters. That’s not right. It kind of hit that place in my heart. I don’t know what he really meant by it, but that’s what I took.

    And I’ll bet Romney knows quite a bit about different doctrines of the Christian faith. He’s had a hard battle with his Mormonism and the best way to help people understand where he’s coming from and for him to understand where others are coming from is to know what they believe and why. I think he’s done his homework on this one.

  • http://livingliturgy.typepad.com Lewis

    I would probably say, “the stubborn blindness of the Lutherans.” It’s not that we don’t have our doctrine right. We do. But we’re so focused on making sure that everyone knows (note: not believes) that doctrine, that we forget to make sure that we’re helping our brother to strive to live the life of Christ in all they do.

    Simply put, we’ve forgotten to live out the ideals we espouse, confusing the ideas for reality.

    As for the “confidently independent” phrase, it almost feels like a slam to me. I don’t want to be so independent, I forget my other Christian brothers and sisters. That’s not right. It kind of hit that place in my heart. I don’t know what he really meant by it, but that’s what I took.

    And I’ll bet Romney knows quite a bit about different doctrines of the Christian faith. He’s had a hard battle with his Mormonism and the best way to help people understand where he’s coming from and for him to understand where others are coming from is to know what they believe and why. I think he’s done his homework on this one.

  • Rev. Alexander Ring

    Somewhat of an aside, I recently had a call from an elderly woman in our neighborhood whose husband was in the hospital, and who was looking for some assistance should her power go out during a wind storm. I told her I could probably find someone from the church to help her, then after chatting with her a bit asked why she called us. She said she had called her son in Ohio and he had said “Call a Lutheran church; they will help.”

    I say this not to boast, but I think it is a good reminder that we often believe the world has a mostly negative opinion of us. This may be true, but there are also those who have encountered Lutherans (and maybe even other Christians), faithfully serving in their vocations, and it has made a good impression.

  • Rev. Alexander Ring

    Somewhat of an aside, I recently had a call from an elderly woman in our neighborhood whose husband was in the hospital, and who was looking for some assistance should her power go out during a wind storm. I told her I could probably find someone from the church to help her, then after chatting with her a bit asked why she called us. She said she had called her son in Ohio and he had said “Call a Lutheran church; they will help.”

    I say this not to boast, but I think it is a good reminder that we often believe the world has a mostly negative opinion of us. This may be true, but there are also those who have encountered Lutherans (and maybe even other Christians), faithfully serving in their vocations, and it has made a good impression.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Methinks Jones might have used those terms ’cause Lutherans are in the moviegoing, drinking, and dancing wing of the church. Like it or not, the stereotype of Lutherans out there is that of people extremely well versed in doctrine (esp. Concord, etc..), but a bit weak on the personal applications of it. Spener was responding to something very real, after all.

    And I’m very glad, of course, when y’all prove that stereotype wrong.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Methinks Jones might have used those terms ’cause Lutherans are in the moviegoing, drinking, and dancing wing of the church. Like it or not, the stereotype of Lutherans out there is that of people extremely well versed in doctrine (esp. Concord, etc..), but a bit weak on the personal applications of it. Spener was responding to something very real, after all.

    And I’m very glad, of course, when y’all prove that stereotype wrong.

  • Pingback: The Politics of God . . . some humor « Planet Augsburg

  • Pingback: The Politics of God . . . some humor « Planet Augsburg

  • Bror Erickson

    Lewis,
    You may be right, I don’t know. Given their family history in Michigan, maybe he knows a bit more about Lutherans than a couple Lutafisk jokes. My problem is (and this is where I get in trouble with Jay-from-Cleveland) that I tend to think if someone knows Lutheran Doctrine, they would have to be Lutheran. I seriously don’t know how one could resist the beauty and simplicity that is Lutheranism. So then I figure if a person isn’t Lutheran that’s because they don’t know what we believe. I know that is a wrong assumption, but I really have a hard time getting over it.

  • Bror Erickson

    Lewis,
    You may be right, I don’t know. Given their family history in Michigan, maybe he knows a bit more about Lutherans than a couple Lutafisk jokes. My problem is (and this is where I get in trouble with Jay-from-Cleveland) that I tend to think if someone knows Lutheran Doctrine, they would have to be Lutheran. I seriously don’t know how one could resist the beauty and simplicity that is Lutheranism. So then I figure if a person isn’t Lutheran that’s because they don’t know what we believe. I know that is a wrong assumption, but I really have a hard time getting over it.

  • Bror Erickson

    and Bike,
    When we Lutherans are out there dancing, Drinking, going to movies, etc. we are applying our doctrine to ourselves. There may be a danger of libertineism, but going to the movies, having a beer or two or 3, and dancing don’t come near crossing it. It’s like I told the guy at the bar the other day. Christ didn’t die for our sins so we would have to go around feeling miserable for ourselves. He died to forgive our sins, so we could go about enjoying life once in a while. It’s a gift, life, we should treat it as such, and enjoy it.

  • Bror Erickson

    and Bike,
    When we Lutherans are out there dancing, Drinking, going to movies, etc. we are applying our doctrine to ourselves. There may be a danger of libertineism, but going to the movies, having a beer or two or 3, and dancing don’t come near crossing it. It’s like I told the guy at the bar the other day. Christ didn’t die for our sins so we would have to go around feeling miserable for ourselves. He died to forgive our sins, so we could go about enjoying life once in a while. It’s a gift, life, we should treat it as such, and enjoy it.

  • fwsonnek

    #18 BROR

    WOW brother. I feel the same way! but was not conscious of that fact…

  • fwsonnek

    #18 BROR

    WOW brother. I feel the same way! but was not conscious of that fact…

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Pr. Lehmann

    Confident? Alright, I’ll take that. The Lord made me so. I am confident in Him because He never changes. He is the same Savior to me today that He was yesterday and will be forever.

    Independent? No! Lutherans stand on the shoulders of the apostles and prophets. We hold to the same Christ they did, and the only reason we know of Him is because of the apostolic and prophetic witness.

    I suspect Romney is describing is in the same false way that we’ve always been described: Those people who broke off from the catholics.

    It’s an utterly false description. Luther called Rome to repentance. When Rome refused to repent and excommunicated the one who called it to repentance… at that moment… ROME left the catholic faith.

    We’re the same old folks we’ve been since the apostolic period. Luther was just like any number of folks before him who called the church to repentance. That the majority group refused to repent doesn’t mean that the majority group gets to define who left who. Rome left the apostles and prophets behind. We stuck with ‘em.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Pr. Lehmann

    Confident? Alright, I’ll take that. The Lord made me so. I am confident in Him because He never changes. He is the same Savior to me today that He was yesterday and will be forever.

    Independent? No! Lutherans stand on the shoulders of the apostles and prophets. We hold to the same Christ they did, and the only reason we know of Him is because of the apostolic and prophetic witness.

    I suspect Romney is describing is in the same false way that we’ve always been described: Those people who broke off from the catholics.

    It’s an utterly false description. Luther called Rome to repentance. When Rome refused to repent and excommunicated the one who called it to repentance… at that moment… ROME left the catholic faith.

    We’re the same old folks we’ve been since the apostolic period. Luther was just like any number of folks before him who called the church to repentance. That the majority group refused to repent doesn’t mean that the majority group gets to define who left who. Rome left the apostles and prophets behind. We stuck with ‘em.

  • kerner

    Bike: the other thing is that reputation is not necessarily reality. We Lutherans don’t condemn drinking, dancing, movies, etc. per se, because we don’t believe the Bible forbids them, per se. But we DO expect Christians to use wisdom and judgment in these things, because we believe that that’s what the Bible teaches. The problem is that plenty of Lutherans sometimes fail to use judgment and cross the line into sin.

    But, from my limited experience at least, I don’t think members of more pietistic denominations are particularly less likely to stray into sin. Different sins, maybe. But if sexual sin is the big concern, I don’t think Lutherans fall into that any more than Evangelicals do. And among confessional Lutherans anyway, I don’t think we are soft on the issues like chastity, etc., we just don’t think that engaging in the occasional polka, electric slide, or cowboy cha-cha is some kind of occasion to sin for most Christians.

  • kerner

    Bike: the other thing is that reputation is not necessarily reality. We Lutherans don’t condemn drinking, dancing, movies, etc. per se, because we don’t believe the Bible forbids them, per se. But we DO expect Christians to use wisdom and judgment in these things, because we believe that that’s what the Bible teaches. The problem is that plenty of Lutherans sometimes fail to use judgment and cross the line into sin.

    But, from my limited experience at least, I don’t think members of more pietistic denominations are particularly less likely to stray into sin. Different sins, maybe. But if sexual sin is the big concern, I don’t think Lutherans fall into that any more than Evangelicals do. And among confessional Lutherans anyway, I don’t think we are soft on the issues like chastity, etc., we just don’t think that engaging in the occasional polka, electric slide, or cowboy cha-cha is some kind of occasion to sin for most Christians.

  • cruxsola

    Lutherans: simulatneously saints and sinners

  • cruxsola

    Lutherans: simulatneously saints and sinners

  • allen

    I thought Lutherans were supposed to be good at discerning the un-intended consequences of well-meaning acts. Something to do with the Thirty Years War?

    “The cautionary wisdom of the Lutherans?”

    I like -

    “The bold repentance of the Lutherans.”

  • allen

    I thought Lutherans were supposed to be good at discerning the un-intended consequences of well-meaning acts. Something to do with the Thirty Years War?

    “The cautionary wisdom of the Lutherans?”

    I like -

    “The bold repentance of the Lutherans.”

  • Brent

    I liked the Weekly Standard’s spoof:
    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/465xgnpz.asp

    “What the H-E-double-hockey-sticks is a Lutheran??”

  • Brent

    I liked the Weekly Standard’s spoof:
    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/465xgnpz.asp

    “What the H-E-double-hockey-sticks is a Lutheran??”

  • WebMonk

    Bror – “I tend to think if someone knows Lutheran Doctrine, they would have to be Lutheran. I seriously don’t know how one could resist the beauty and simplicity that is Lutheranism.”

    I’ve heard Catholics say the exact same thing many times. Why don’t you move to Catholicism? For at least some of the same reasons others don’t move to Lutheranism.

  • WebMonk

    Bror – “I tend to think if someone knows Lutheran Doctrine, they would have to be Lutheran. I seriously don’t know how one could resist the beauty and simplicity that is Lutheranism.”

    I’ve heard Catholics say the exact same thing many times. Why don’t you move to Catholicism? For at least some of the same reasons others don’t move to Lutheranism.

  • http://www.LutheranLucciola.blogspot.com Lutheran Lucciola

    I have a feeling this comment from him was more political than theological. I doubt a Mormon understands Lutheran theology, but then again I don’t know this candidate very well, in that regard.

    Maybe he is playing to the Ron Paul support in the Lutheran circles?

  • http://www.LutheranLucciola.blogspot.com Lutheran Lucciola

    I have a feeling this comment from him was more political than theological. I doubt a Mormon understands Lutheran theology, but then again I don’t know this candidate very well, in that regard.

    Maybe he is playing to the Ron Paul support in the Lutheran circles?

  • Patrick Kyle

    This speech has all the hallmarks of a finely tuned political speech , thoroughly vetted by his campaign staff and speech writers. Call me jaded, but I think he was just trying to sound good, and say nice things about people who might oppose him.

  • Patrick Kyle

    This speech has all the hallmarks of a finely tuned political speech , thoroughly vetted by his campaign staff and speech writers. Call me jaded, but I think he was just trying to sound good, and say nice things about people who might oppose him.

  • Bror Erickson

    Webmonk,
    I would like to know, What are those same reasons? Be aware though, I’ve probably heard them. Most of the time, when people compare Lutherans to Catholics they do so out of complete ignorance. Usually they are afraid of candles. But I have and open ear. So please enlighten me.

  • Bror Erickson

    Webmonk,
    I would like to know, What are those same reasons? Be aware though, I’ve probably heard them. Most of the time, when people compare Lutherans to Catholics they do so out of complete ignorance. Usually they are afraid of candles. But I have and open ear. So please enlighten me.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Certainly an occasional movie, dance or drink isn’t a huge issue. The trouble is that I’ve seen cases where it’s not three beers, but ten, the concert is by one of the most sexually charged performers ever to live in Chanhassen (MN), and the movie is more or less a visit to the red light district to view the brothels and hopefully a gangland slaying or two.

    And certainly other evangelicals are anything but perfect in this regard; a friend of mine joked that keeping fundamentalists out of the movie theater is like trying to keep NFL players out of jail, darned near impossible. But yet it is my hope to encourage–here and elsewhere–a greater sensitivity to what it is that we’re doing with our lives.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Certainly an occasional movie, dance or drink isn’t a huge issue. The trouble is that I’ve seen cases where it’s not three beers, but ten, the concert is by one of the most sexually charged performers ever to live in Chanhassen (MN), and the movie is more or less a visit to the red light district to view the brothels and hopefully a gangland slaying or two.

    And certainly other evangelicals are anything but perfect in this regard; a friend of mine joked that keeping fundamentalists out of the movie theater is like trying to keep NFL players out of jail, darned near impossible. But yet it is my hope to encourage–here and elsewhere–a greater sensitivity to what it is that we’re doing with our lives.

  • Bror Erickson

    No bibke no one is perfect in this regard, or anyother. But Jesus was and he forgives us, so I guess when it is all done, I’m glad the Lutherans are in church having their sins forgiven, rather than having a blow hard giving them a guilt trip. If there is nothing wrong with it outright, then we will have to let people use their own judgment.

  • Bror Erickson

    No bibke no one is perfect in this regard, or anyother. But Jesus was and he forgives us, so I guess when it is all done, I’m glad the Lutherans are in church having their sins forgiven, rather than having a blow hard giving them a guilt trip. If there is nothing wrong with it outright, then we will have to let people use their own judgment.

  • http://www.oldsolar.com/currentblog.php Rick Ritchie

    Hey, Patrick. Yes, I think you’re right about the speech being crafted and vetted. But he might have failed to make it at all. The Bush Administration fails to communicate what it needs to communicate, whether its communications are crafted and vetted or not.

    I would not vote for Romney for other reasons. But the speech convinces me that his Mormonism would not be an obstacle to my voting for him if I agreed with his policies.

  • http://www.oldsolar.com/currentblog.php Rick Ritchie

    Hey, Patrick. Yes, I think you’re right about the speech being crafted and vetted. But he might have failed to make it at all. The Bush Administration fails to communicate what it needs to communicate, whether its communications are crafted and vetted or not.

    I would not vote for Romney for other reasons. But the speech convinces me that his Mormonism would not be an obstacle to my voting for him if I agreed with his policies.

  • fwsonnek

    #32 rick ritchie and the initial post.

    there is something wrong when romney describes Lutherans with a really flattering sounding 2 word phrase. and none of us Lutherans have a clue what he meant by those two words.

    the words that come to mind are “pandering, post-modernest use of words with no content intended to manipulate emotionally……”

    Rick dear friend. I would suggest you call your nearest branch of the Mormon church and invite the missionaries to give you their…. um… sales pitch for the mormon church. you DO know what they actually teach.

    Give them a grade for honesty. Then feel free to filter everything this guy Romney says through your experience with the missionaries.

    Romney has said that he owes who he is to his training and upbringing in the mormon church. believe him when he says that. please.

    and then please retract what you said. i am torn. In theory I am thinking that religion should not be a test for office. but at the same time, I would be challenged to vote for romney, or huckabee, or anyone who raises religion as an issue as candidate. and I would be torn even over a candidate who was a member of, say a church that was white supremacist baptist who were all members of the kkk…. what to do? i would seriouly like to hear more from you and from pat kyle on this one.

  • fwsonnek

    #32 rick ritchie and the initial post.

    there is something wrong when romney describes Lutherans with a really flattering sounding 2 word phrase. and none of us Lutherans have a clue what he meant by those two words.

    the words that come to mind are “pandering, post-modernest use of words with no content intended to manipulate emotionally……”

    Rick dear friend. I would suggest you call your nearest branch of the Mormon church and invite the missionaries to give you their…. um… sales pitch for the mormon church. you DO know what they actually teach.

    Give them a grade for honesty. Then feel free to filter everything this guy Romney says through your experience with the missionaries.

    Romney has said that he owes who he is to his training and upbringing in the mormon church. believe him when he says that. please.

    and then please retract what you said. i am torn. In theory I am thinking that religion should not be a test for office. but at the same time, I would be challenged to vote for romney, or huckabee, or anyone who raises religion as an issue as candidate. and I would be torn even over a candidate who was a member of, say a church that was white supremacist baptist who were all members of the kkk…. what to do? i would seriouly like to hear more from you and from pat kyle on this one.

  • fwsonnek

    #28 pat kyle #32 rick ritchie

    huckabee suggested as late as 1992 that people with aids should be locked up and isolated…….

    I am sure you can appreciate that this single issue hits pretty close to home. think i could ever vote for him? hmmmmm let me think really hard on this……….

  • fwsonnek

    #28 pat kyle #32 rick ritchie

    huckabee suggested as late as 1992 that people with aids should be locked up and isolated…….

    I am sure you can appreciate that this single issue hits pretty close to home. think i could ever vote for him? hmmmmm let me think really hard on this……….

  • Floyd Bass, SSP

    The ‘evangelical catholicity’ of the Lutherans? =)

  • Floyd Bass, SSP

    The ‘evangelical catholicity’ of the Lutherans? =)

  • Dennis Peskey

    Governor Romney’s statement is half true – half false. Considering this is the runup to an election, that is not a bad statistic.

    Lutherans should be confident they have the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Ergo, we should shun all thought of “independence” realizing this gift of grace is not of our doing – in this, we have no reason to boast.

  • Dennis Peskey

    Governor Romney’s statement is half true – half false. Considering this is the runup to an election, that is not a bad statistic.

    Lutherans should be confident they have the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Ergo, we should shun all thought of “independence” realizing this gift of grace is not of our doing – in this, we have no reason to boast.


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X