The Issues, Etc., mystery

I don’t want this to be just a Lutheran blog, so I don’t usually blog about inside-Lutheranism issues. But I appreciated how the recent “Things We Don’t Have Anymore” thread was taken over by laments that we don’t have the radio program “Issues, Etc.” anymore! So “Issues” is a valid issue. That hard-hitting interview show, led by Todd Wilken and produced by Jeff Schwartz, would host people like Bishop Spong (that Christianity-denying Episcopal Bishop who would then be taken apart) and, well, me (treating me always very kindly), always making a strong case for Biblical truth and Reformational Christianity, relating them to the cultural “issues” of our day. It was one of the few places where Missouri Synod Lutherans DID interact with outsiders, with Christendom as a whole, and with the secular marketplace of ideas.

Then, suddenly and with no warning, the synod cancelled the program. One of the few outreach vehicles amidst an emphasis on outreach that was working! Untold numbers of people (as has been testified on this blog) have come to our church and even to Christianity because of the influence of this program! Then it gets killed.

I don’t know anything about why, nor does anyone else I’ve communicated with. It’s a mystery. Did it get too controversial in its criticism of, say, Islam or American evangelicalism for our church hierarchy? What did the show air that was the catalyst for this sudden decision? Is this action a sign that the hierarchy is cracking down on its conservative and confessional voices in favor of some new and more liberal direction? I don’t want to believe that, I’m just saying, especially for those of you who wonder what the fuss is about, that this is one reason many people think this is a big deal. If I learn more, I’ll let you know, but I will not pass along rumors, only things I can verify.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Bob Hunter

    The problem is I don’t think we’re going to get an honest answer from the LCMS and that just fuels rumours and theories because it’s all we’ve got.

  • Bob Hunter

    The problem is I don’t think we’re going to get an honest answer from the LCMS and that just fuels rumours and theories because it’s all we’ve got.

  • Richard Lewer

    Issues Etc. was a clear voice for the truth. Perhaps the truth is not popular in some circles. That is the most charitable thing I can say at the moment about the Holy Tuesday Massacre.

  • Richard Lewer

    Issues Etc. was a clear voice for the truth. Perhaps the truth is not popular in some circles. That is the most charitable thing I can say at the moment about the Holy Tuesday Massacre.

  • Richard

    The way in which this was done leaves me very angry. I have been a financial supporter of Issues, etc. for several years now and have benefited tremendously from the ministry of Pastor Wilken. Someone pulled the rug out from under this program pretty ineptly. God have mercy.

  • Richard

    The way in which this was done leaves me very angry. I have been a financial supporter of Issues, etc. for several years now and have benefited tremendously from the ministry of Pastor Wilken. Someone pulled the rug out from under this program pretty ineptly. God have mercy.

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com Kevin N

    I am not Lutheran (E-Free) but was a regular listener to Issues Etc when I lived in St. Louis, and still regularly go to their archives and sometimes download mp3 files. I was greatly blessed by Todd Wilken every time I listened. Issues Etc was one of the two best programs on Christian radio; the other being White Horse Inn. I greatly appreciated the continual focus on Christ and the cross, and Issues Etc has been a significant factor in my spiritual and theological development. This is very sad, and I will be praying.

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com Kevin N

    I am not Lutheran (E-Free) but was a regular listener to Issues Etc when I lived in St. Louis, and still regularly go to their archives and sometimes download mp3 files. I was greatly blessed by Todd Wilken every time I listened. Issues Etc was one of the two best programs on Christian radio; the other being White Horse Inn. I greatly appreciated the continual focus on Christ and the cross, and Issues Etc has been a significant factor in my spiritual and theological development. This is very sad, and I will be praying.

  • organshoes

    I wonder if ‘they’ had any idea of the fury this decision would unleash.
    I hope we don’t let up on them, and I hope we find some constructive recourse that benefits all of us–including Wilken and Schwarz.
    It’s still not too late for a great Holy Week show of repentance!

  • organshoes

    I wonder if ‘they’ had any idea of the fury this decision would unleash.
    I hope we don’t let up on them, and I hope we find some constructive recourse that benefits all of us–including Wilken and Schwarz.
    It’s still not too late for a great Holy Week show of repentance!

  • Steve Rowe

    Look I loved the show but let’s not idealize it. Todd and co. were excellent advocates for traditional liturgical reformation Christianity and they will be missed and KFUO appears to have treated them extremely shabbily. That being said their one sided defense of the most narrow and reactionary elements in the “Creation Science” undermined their witness to a lot thoughtful non-christens, they had an annoying habit caricaturizing Armenian and dispensational doctrine during there “Evangelical Proof Text” segments and likely turned off a lot of conventional evangelicals who would otherwise have be sympathetic to the more liturgical approach to worship advocated by the LCMS. Most damming as far as I am concerned they allowed John Warwick Montgomery make the most outrageous statements about Islam without comment or challenge gleefully replaying them during there “sound bite of the week” segment. In short Issues Ect represented the best and the worst of the LCMS: intelligent, orthodox and cherishing tradition but also clannish, painfully conservative and I am afraid sometime intolerant. Lets pray that Todd and Jeff land on their feet (I am sure they will they are talented men) and what ever show replaces them keeps the intelligent confessional Lutheran core of the old show but also open itself up more to the best of the larger christen community.

    Regards

    Steve Rowe
    Toronto, Canada

  • Steve Rowe

    Look I loved the show but let’s not idealize it. Todd and co. were excellent advocates for traditional liturgical reformation Christianity and they will be missed and KFUO appears to have treated them extremely shabbily. That being said their one sided defense of the most narrow and reactionary elements in the “Creation Science” undermined their witness to a lot thoughtful non-christens, they had an annoying habit caricaturizing Armenian and dispensational doctrine during there “Evangelical Proof Text” segments and likely turned off a lot of conventional evangelicals who would otherwise have be sympathetic to the more liturgical approach to worship advocated by the LCMS. Most damming as far as I am concerned they allowed John Warwick Montgomery make the most outrageous statements about Islam without comment or challenge gleefully replaying them during there “sound bite of the week” segment. In short Issues Ect represented the best and the worst of the LCMS: intelligent, orthodox and cherishing tradition but also clannish, painfully conservative and I am afraid sometime intolerant. Lets pray that Todd and Jeff land on their feet (I am sure they will they are talented men) and what ever show replaces them keeps the intelligent confessional Lutheran core of the old show but also open itself up more to the best of the larger christen community.

    Regards

    Steve Rowe
    Toronto, Canada

  • Greg

    We have no bussiness opening up to non-creationists and the larger christian community. Issues etc. was a lcms show and should showcase lcms doctrine. Others had their own shows, their own venues. If you want puff pieces on Islam view PBS. If the Synod can’t find it in their heart to give Wilkin back his job maybe he needs a new job. How about Wilkin for Synod President?

  • Greg

    We have no bussiness opening up to non-creationists and the larger christian community. Issues etc. was a lcms show and should showcase lcms doctrine. Others had their own shows, their own venues. If you want puff pieces on Islam view PBS. If the Synod can’t find it in their heart to give Wilkin back his job maybe he needs a new job. How about Wilkin for Synod President?

  • Bror Erickson

    I have to say I did not find opportunity until as quite of late to listen to the show. When I did I wished I had begun much earlier.
    Steve Rowe of Toronto,
    I don’t know which comments Montgomery made that you object to? Are you qualified to object to them?
    As for their aproach to evangelicalism, well it seems to have showed many the errors of their ways. Reading the comments on the petition drive to get the show back on there were many former evangelicals, some of whom indicated that before Issues etc. they were thinking of leaving the church all together. I for one applaud their in your face approach to many of these topics.
    As for you indication that more thoughtful Christians can not hold to creationism, are you more thoughtful than Gregor Mendel? Behe? I could give you a list of very many thoughtful Christian scientists who have problems with evolution.

  • Bror Erickson

    I have to say I did not find opportunity until as quite of late to listen to the show. When I did I wished I had begun much earlier.
    Steve Rowe of Toronto,
    I don’t know which comments Montgomery made that you object to? Are you qualified to object to them?
    As for their aproach to evangelicalism, well it seems to have showed many the errors of their ways. Reading the comments on the petition drive to get the show back on there were many former evangelicals, some of whom indicated that before Issues etc. they were thinking of leaving the church all together. I for one applaud their in your face approach to many of these topics.
    As for you indication that more thoughtful Christians can not hold to creationism, are you more thoughtful than Gregor Mendel? Behe? I could give you a list of very many thoughtful Christian scientists who have problems with evolution.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    We were just talking of bringing the thoughtful Christian dialogue of the Issues Etc. Sunday show to the “foreign mission field” of Utah. I do hope KFUO will bring the show back soon and I am so thankful for the many voices that are encouraging folks to contact the appropriate LCMS officials who have influence over this mess. I’m thankful for Vieth’s blog on this today and for his integrity.

    Regarding Steve’s comment above, it is my conviction that if all the many folks like him had their way, every show on television and the airwaves would sound exactly the same and no one would dare to buck the deadening status quo (which is all too often already the case).

    Bring back faithful and bold Christian Radio on KFUO (they have other very excellent shows – But Issues Etc. was the show that drew me to their MP3 files from way over here in Utah).

    Come on, LCMS! You are my beloved Jesus-focused church body. Put your preaching and your money where your mouth is and do everything you can to bring back Issues Etc. If not I would gladly contribute to help them pursue a voice independent of the LCMS.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    We were just talking of bringing the thoughtful Christian dialogue of the Issues Etc. Sunday show to the “foreign mission field” of Utah. I do hope KFUO will bring the show back soon and I am so thankful for the many voices that are encouraging folks to contact the appropriate LCMS officials who have influence over this mess. I’m thankful for Vieth’s blog on this today and for his integrity.

    Regarding Steve’s comment above, it is my conviction that if all the many folks like him had their way, every show on television and the airwaves would sound exactly the same and no one would dare to buck the deadening status quo (which is all too often already the case).

    Bring back faithful and bold Christian Radio on KFUO (they have other very excellent shows – But Issues Etc. was the show that drew me to their MP3 files from way over here in Utah).

    Come on, LCMS! You are my beloved Jesus-focused church body. Put your preaching and your money where your mouth is and do everything you can to bring back Issues Etc. If not I would gladly contribute to help them pursue a voice independent of the LCMS.

  • Richard Lewer

    The founders of the LCMS came to this country to be able to proclaim the truth freely. Once here, they proclaimed the truth and condemned error clearly. Those attracted to this truth gathered to form the LCMS. Seeking to become a generic “mainline” Protestant church is a betrayal of our history and the truth of God’s word. Issues, Etc. was a return to the spirit of Walther’s publications which called all to rally to the truth. This evidently is not popular with our present administration.

  • Richard Lewer

    The founders of the LCMS came to this country to be able to proclaim the truth freely. Once here, they proclaimed the truth and condemned error clearly. Those attracted to this truth gathered to form the LCMS. Seeking to become a generic “mainline” Protestant church is a betrayal of our history and the truth of God’s word. Issues, Etc. was a return to the spirit of Walther’s publications which called all to rally to the truth. This evidently is not popular with our present administration.

  • Steve Rowe

    I feel as if I am speaking ill of the dead but I hope that what ever phoenix rises from the ashes of Issues ECT will learn from the shows success as well as its failures

    In late November last year John Warwick Montgomery compared the Islamic faith to the Aztec religion. I have yet to hear anyone suggest that Muslims practice human sacrifice. Dr. Montgomery did not limit his comments to the political manifestations of Islam but instead made a blanket statement that was not only intemperate but bigoted. He also showed an appalling ignorance of Islamic history. It was especially shocking to hear a legal scholar articulate opinions that are so much at odds with the traditions of freedom of religion that is so central to the American history (he advocated banning Islam in America) . Lastly Dr Montgomery adopted a mock southern accent and joked about hopping to find slaves in Virginia to help grade is papers!

    Todd and/or Jeff would only allow advocates the 6 day young earth creation model to comment on the evolution, creation, intelligent design controversies. As a result Issues ect. Listeners were not exposed to the many Christian Scientist (who subscribe to alternative theories of creation) that are a living testament to the compatibility of the Christian Faith with serious scienentific research. Gregor Mendel died in 1884 so it is difficult say with any certainly what theory he would advocate today but we can say that his intellectual children (the thousands of Catholicism priests, nuns and layman who work and teach at the Catholic Universities and scientific research instructions) overwhelming subscribe to the” Theistic Evolution” Model. Michael Behe believes in a common ancestry of Humans and Primates (A concept that Rev. Wilkin regards as heretical). Instead we were treated by endless visits with David Menton, who’s Answers in Genesis ministry is noted for its lack of intellectual integrity; see Stephen Matheson’s (a Professor of Biology at Calvin College) Blog http://sfmatheson.blogspot.com/2007/12/on-folks-science-and-lies-feedback-and.html#links.

    I am also a disillusioned evangelical (I now describe my self as a broad church Anglican) and I am extreme sympathetic to Rev. Wilkin critique of main stream evangelicals but too often he came across as arrogant and needlessly dogmatic. The longer I live and the more I study issues like end time prophesy, infant baptism, church governance and the lords supper the more I am convinced that how we read these texts is a much determined my what we bring to it in terms of our own life experiences and preconceived theological systems as anything that is actually in the texts them self. What about a little bit of Humility? If men like J.I. Packer, R.C.Sproul, and Ben Witherington can disagree civilly about these issues why can’t we be a bit less infatic about our own positions?

    All that being said I loved the show and will miss it.
    Both Todd and Jeff (as well as their families are in my prayers)

    Peace

    Steve Rowe
    Toronto, Canada

  • Steve Rowe

    I feel as if I am speaking ill of the dead but I hope that what ever phoenix rises from the ashes of Issues ECT will learn from the shows success as well as its failures

    In late November last year John Warwick Montgomery compared the Islamic faith to the Aztec religion. I have yet to hear anyone suggest that Muslims practice human sacrifice. Dr. Montgomery did not limit his comments to the political manifestations of Islam but instead made a blanket statement that was not only intemperate but bigoted. He also showed an appalling ignorance of Islamic history. It was especially shocking to hear a legal scholar articulate opinions that are so much at odds with the traditions of freedom of religion that is so central to the American history (he advocated banning Islam in America) . Lastly Dr Montgomery adopted a mock southern accent and joked about hopping to find slaves in Virginia to help grade is papers!

    Todd and/or Jeff would only allow advocates the 6 day young earth creation model to comment on the evolution, creation, intelligent design controversies. As a result Issues ect. Listeners were not exposed to the many Christian Scientist (who subscribe to alternative theories of creation) that are a living testament to the compatibility of the Christian Faith with serious scienentific research. Gregor Mendel died in 1884 so it is difficult say with any certainly what theory he would advocate today but we can say that his intellectual children (the thousands of Catholicism priests, nuns and layman who work and teach at the Catholic Universities and scientific research instructions) overwhelming subscribe to the” Theistic Evolution” Model. Michael Behe believes in a common ancestry of Humans and Primates (A concept that Rev. Wilkin regards as heretical). Instead we were treated by endless visits with David Menton, who’s Answers in Genesis ministry is noted for its lack of intellectual integrity; see Stephen Matheson’s (a Professor of Biology at Calvin College) Blog http://sfmatheson.blogspot.com/2007/12/on-folks-science-and-lies-feedback-and.html#links.

    I am also a disillusioned evangelical (I now describe my self as a broad church Anglican) and I am extreme sympathetic to Rev. Wilkin critique of main stream evangelicals but too often he came across as arrogant and needlessly dogmatic. The longer I live and the more I study issues like end time prophesy, infant baptism, church governance and the lords supper the more I am convinced that how we read these texts is a much determined my what we bring to it in terms of our own life experiences and preconceived theological systems as anything that is actually in the texts them self. What about a little bit of Humility? If men like J.I. Packer, R.C.Sproul, and Ben Witherington can disagree civilly about these issues why can’t we be a bit less infatic about our own positions?

    All that being said I loved the show and will miss it.
    Both Todd and Jeff (as well as their families are in my prayers)

    Peace

    Steve Rowe
    Toronto, Canada

  • Greg

    Well Steve can keep his broad church anglican tradition which has recently embraced sodomy. That kind of depravity is the end result when churches compromise on issues such as 6 day creationism, infant baptism, the Lord Supper or any of the other issues that Steve thinks we should shut up over. As for me I will not keep silent. When Wilkins ministry resurrects may it be stronger than ever and more pungent in its coments.

  • Greg

    Well Steve can keep his broad church anglican tradition which has recently embraced sodomy. That kind of depravity is the end result when churches compromise on issues such as 6 day creationism, infant baptism, the Lord Supper or any of the other issues that Steve thinks we should shut up over. As for me I will not keep silent. When Wilkins ministry resurrects may it be stronger than ever and more pungent in its coments.

  • Steve Rowe

    We all sinners saved by grace (straight or gay). When the LCMS will allow me to share communion with my Christen brothers and sisters of other denominations I will happy consider taking the Wittenberg trail (I really mean it when I say every Sunday that I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church). Until them I will have to be content with Canterbury.

    God bless and please keep my broken and battered Church in your prayers

    Steve Rowe
    Toronto

  • Steve Rowe

    We all sinners saved by grace (straight or gay). When the LCMS will allow me to share communion with my Christen brothers and sisters of other denominations I will happy consider taking the Wittenberg trail (I really mean it when I say every Sunday that I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church). Until them I will have to be content with Canterbury.

    God bless and please keep my broken and battered Church in your prayers

    Steve Rowe
    Toronto

  • Greg

    If the LCMS practices open communion there would be no wittenberg trail left. We would have abandoned our Lutheran birthright for an ecumenical stew. May God preserve us from this! And may God bless the voices of orthodoxy remaining on the Canterbury trail.

  • Greg

    If the LCMS practices open communion there would be no wittenberg trail left. We would have abandoned our Lutheran birthright for an ecumenical stew. May God preserve us from this! And may God bless the voices of orthodoxy remaining on the Canterbury trail.

  • Jenna

    “Issues, Etc. was a return to the spirit of Walther’s publications which called all to rally to the truth. This evidently is not popular with our present administration.”

    No, the administration would prefer to urge on us the evangelism “methodologies” put forward in the recent “Ablaze!” issue of The Lutheran Witness: no Christ, no Cross, no Gospel, no Holy Spirit.

    But plenty of “winsomeness”, “authenticity”, “good deeds”, “relevance”, “diversity” and “multi-cultural sensitivity”.

    Lord, have mercy.

  • Jenna

    “Issues, Etc. was a return to the spirit of Walther’s publications which called all to rally to the truth. This evidently is not popular with our present administration.”

    No, the administration would prefer to urge on us the evangelism “methodologies” put forward in the recent “Ablaze!” issue of The Lutheran Witness: no Christ, no Cross, no Gospel, no Holy Spirit.

    But plenty of “winsomeness”, “authenticity”, “good deeds”, “relevance”, “diversity” and “multi-cultural sensitivity”.

    Lord, have mercy.

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com Kevin N

    Regarding Steve Rowe’s comments:

    Wilken often “bashed” the broader evangelical movement, but I never felt I was being personally attacked. He sometimes lumped all evangelicals together, but the goofiness or man-centeredness he pointed to is all too common in evangelicalism. I will agree with Steve on this: young-earth creationism (Answers in Genesis) is poor apologetics and turns many away from the Gospel. Overall, however, I am deeply saddened to see Issues Etc. go.

    I grew up in a semi-liberal ALC/ELCA congregation, and came to understand the Gospel in college apart from the Lutheran church. I was one of those who would have said, “I once was Lutheran, now I’m a Christian.” Issues Etc was my introduction to Biblical, Christ-centered, cross-centered Lutheranism, and for that I am grateful. I am content now for many reasons in the Evangelical Free Church, but have learned much from Todd Wilken and Issues Etc.

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com Kevin N

    Regarding Steve Rowe’s comments:

    Wilken often “bashed” the broader evangelical movement, but I never felt I was being personally attacked. He sometimes lumped all evangelicals together, but the goofiness or man-centeredness he pointed to is all too common in evangelicalism. I will agree with Steve on this: young-earth creationism (Answers in Genesis) is poor apologetics and turns many away from the Gospel. Overall, however, I am deeply saddened to see Issues Etc. go.

    I grew up in a semi-liberal ALC/ELCA congregation, and came to understand the Gospel in college apart from the Lutheran church. I was one of those who would have said, “I once was Lutheran, now I’m a Christian.” Issues Etc was my introduction to Biblical, Christ-centered, cross-centered Lutheranism, and for that I am grateful. I am content now for many reasons in the Evangelical Free Church, but have learned much from Todd Wilken and Issues Etc.

  • Steve Rowe

    I never felt personally attacked by Todd either but I am hardly a representive evangelical. When I see someone building knocking down a straw man. I sometime wonder if they are afraid to take on a real one. The lack of real debate between advocates of intelligent alternative positions was sadly lacking at issues ect. Too often Todd would simply play a tape of a theologian he was critical of and then interrupt it with a running commentary making a clear understanding of the original material difficult if not impossible. I longed to hear an in depth interview with a man such as Jaroslav Pelikan or Richard Neuhaus (who was a frequent guest on the show) about why they had left the Lutheran church and hear Rev. Wilkin respond to there concerns. Like wise when he interviewed Tom Wight he declined to aggressively engage him in real time and instead invited another man (Dr Kim Riddlebarger I believe) to pronounce that Dr Wright was ”Preaching a different Gospel” after the fact. Sadly an opportunity for a real dialog was lost. I understand that Issues Ect is a mission of the LCMS and it should have a distinctive Lutheran identity but it frequently came across as shrill and defensive it would have been a more effective advocate if it had been more open to real dialog.

  • Steve Rowe

    I never felt personally attacked by Todd either but I am hardly a representive evangelical. When I see someone building knocking down a straw man. I sometime wonder if they are afraid to take on a real one. The lack of real debate between advocates of intelligent alternative positions was sadly lacking at issues ect. Too often Todd would simply play a tape of a theologian he was critical of and then interrupt it with a running commentary making a clear understanding of the original material difficult if not impossible. I longed to hear an in depth interview with a man such as Jaroslav Pelikan or Richard Neuhaus (who was a frequent guest on the show) about why they had left the Lutheran church and hear Rev. Wilkin respond to there concerns. Like wise when he interviewed Tom Wight he declined to aggressively engage him in real time and instead invited another man (Dr Kim Riddlebarger I believe) to pronounce that Dr Wright was ”Preaching a different Gospel” after the fact. Sadly an opportunity for a real dialog was lost. I understand that Issues Ect is a mission of the LCMS and it should have a distinctive Lutheran identity but it frequently came across as shrill and defensive it would have been a more effective advocate if it had been more open to real dialog.

  • cruxsola

    I e-mailed Gary Duncan, KFUO Operations Mgr.

    I just received this reply:

    I appreciate your comments and continued prayers for KFUO radio.

    This is the only information that I have. The KFUO staff including myself were called into a meeting Tuesday afternoon at 12:30 with my direct supervisors Chuck Rathert and Dennis Stortz. Chuck is the Program Director and Dennis is the Director of Broadcast Operations. Dennis answers to David Strand and the BCS Board of Communication services for the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod. The following statement was given to us at that meeting. There is a phone number included that you may call to voice your opinion or get more information.

    “The Issues, Etc. radio program has been discontinued by the management board of KFUO. The Board for communication services of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Pastor Todd Wilken and his producer Jeff Schwarz are no longer employed at KFUO. Any further information is available from the offices of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod at 888-843-5267”

    Thank you,
    Gary Duncan

  • cruxsola

    I e-mailed Gary Duncan, KFUO Operations Mgr.

    I just received this reply:

    I appreciate your comments and continued prayers for KFUO radio.

    This is the only information that I have. The KFUO staff including myself were called into a meeting Tuesday afternoon at 12:30 with my direct supervisors Chuck Rathert and Dennis Stortz. Chuck is the Program Director and Dennis is the Director of Broadcast Operations. Dennis answers to David Strand and the BCS Board of Communication services for the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod. The following statement was given to us at that meeting. There is a phone number included that you may call to voice your opinion or get more information.

    “The Issues, Etc. radio program has been discontinued by the management board of KFUO. The Board for communication services of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Pastor Todd Wilken and his producer Jeff Schwarz are no longer employed at KFUO. Any further information is available from the offices of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod at 888-843-5267”

    Thank you,
    Gary Duncan

  • Cheesehed

    There is a petition that protests the cancellation of the show and asks that it be reinstated:

    http://www.petitiononline.com/Issues/petition.html

  • Cheesehed

    There is a petition that protests the cancellation of the show and asks that it be reinstated:

    http://www.petitiononline.com/Issues/petition.html

  • cruxsola

    thanks for the petition link, Cheesehed. Over 1400 have signed it when I went there. One can give KFUO their comments on the whole situation there also.

  • cruxsola

    thanks for the petition link, Cheesehed. Over 1400 have signed it when I went there. One can give KFUO their comments on the whole situation there also.

  • Bror Erickson

    Steve you write “In late November last year John Warwick Montgomery compared the Islamic faith to the Aztec religion. I have yet to hear anyone suggest that Muslims practice human sacrifice.”
    Exactly how is human sacrifice different from strapping bombs to mentally retarded children and blowing them up in the name of Allah.
    I didn’t listen to the interview, but I heard that one and had to readily agree. And I like religious freedom too, As I’m sure Montgomery does. But I think he points to a danger that is real. I don’t want people practicing thugee in my backyard. At a certain point some religious practices are declared illegal, if the religion itself isn’t, but the effect is the same. We don’t let Zorastrians hang bodies from towers. We don’t allow Mormon’s to have more than one wife (publicly). in effect we outlaw their religion.

  • Bror Erickson

    Steve you write “In late November last year John Warwick Montgomery compared the Islamic faith to the Aztec religion. I have yet to hear anyone suggest that Muslims practice human sacrifice.”
    Exactly how is human sacrifice different from strapping bombs to mentally retarded children and blowing them up in the name of Allah.
    I didn’t listen to the interview, but I heard that one and had to readily agree. And I like religious freedom too, As I’m sure Montgomery does. But I think he points to a danger that is real. I don’t want people practicing thugee in my backyard. At a certain point some religious practices are declared illegal, if the religion itself isn’t, but the effect is the same. We don’t let Zorastrians hang bodies from towers. We don’t allow Mormon’s to have more than one wife (publicly). in effect we outlaw their religion.

  • Pastor B

    Regarding the petition…be sure to look at the comments. They’re from long-time Lutherans and new Lutherans who have walked the Wittenberg Trail as of late and non-Lutherans who were being introduced to new understandings of God’s grace in Christ. They’re coming from nearly every continent and state. “Issues, Etc.” has spoken to so many on behalf of so many of us. Now is the time for us to speak on its behalf.

  • Pastor B

    Regarding the petition…be sure to look at the comments. They’re from long-time Lutherans and new Lutherans who have walked the Wittenberg Trail as of late and non-Lutherans who were being introduced to new understandings of God’s grace in Christ. They’re coming from nearly every continent and state. “Issues, Etc.” has spoken to so many on behalf of so many of us. Now is the time for us to speak on its behalf.

  • Steve Rowe

    The key is of coures to ban the offensive behavior not the religion i.e. don’t ban Hinduism bane wife burning. Dr Montgomery made no such distinction. I do think that you can successfully argue that in the core of its DNA Christianity is more tolerant than Islam but the problem is that for the first 1,500 years of our history no one looking at the two religions from the outside would have been able to tell that. Until the enlightenment when Islamic and Christen armies clashed the flow of refugees was to the Islamic side. Constantinople fell largely because the Orthodox Church felt that they had a better chance of surviving under the Ottomans rule than accept the aid of Catholic Army’s (remember the fourth Crusade?). Jewish culture flourished under Islam and was persecuted in the Christian west. The reformation triggered 30 years of bloody civil war in Europe and the Holocaust happened in a Christian nation not a Muslim one. We do not have a lovely history and if Dr Montgomery didn’t know it he ought to have. We can fight the evils of political Islam without demonizing a religion in fact if we are to succeed we must. Any student of the Christian faith should realize that the worst way to stamp out a religion is to try to ban it!

  • Steve Rowe

    The key is of coures to ban the offensive behavior not the religion i.e. don’t ban Hinduism bane wife burning. Dr Montgomery made no such distinction. I do think that you can successfully argue that in the core of its DNA Christianity is more tolerant than Islam but the problem is that for the first 1,500 years of our history no one looking at the two religions from the outside would have been able to tell that. Until the enlightenment when Islamic and Christen armies clashed the flow of refugees was to the Islamic side. Constantinople fell largely because the Orthodox Church felt that they had a better chance of surviving under the Ottomans rule than accept the aid of Catholic Army’s (remember the fourth Crusade?). Jewish culture flourished under Islam and was persecuted in the Christian west. The reformation triggered 30 years of bloody civil war in Europe and the Holocaust happened in a Christian nation not a Muslim one. We do not have a lovely history and if Dr Montgomery didn’t know it he ought to have. We can fight the evils of political Islam without demonizing a religion in fact if we are to succeed we must. Any student of the Christian faith should realize that the worst way to stamp out a religion is to try to ban it!

  • Colt 45

    Steve,

    Your understanding of the Holocaust leaves a lot be desired, besides I don’t believe in Christian nations. The Church is an invisible kingdom among many nations that no one country can claim to be their own, that would be a confusion of the two kingdoms.

  • Colt 45

    Steve,

    Your understanding of the Holocaust leaves a lot be desired, besides I don’t believe in Christian nations. The Church is an invisible kingdom among many nations that no one country can claim to be their own, that would be a confusion of the two kingdoms.

  • http://gpiper.org/katiesbeer Theresa K.

    A bit off topic, but I must reply that it would be unbiblical to commune with “Christen brothers and sisters of other denominations” if ANY of them deny that Holy Communion is the body and blood of Jesus Christ given to us for the forgiveness of sins and strengthening of faith. It would be unbiblical and very sinful; scripture is very clear on the subject of Holy Communion.

  • http://gpiper.org/katiesbeer Theresa K.

    A bit off topic, but I must reply that it would be unbiblical to commune with “Christen brothers and sisters of other denominations” if ANY of them deny that Holy Communion is the body and blood of Jesus Christ given to us for the forgiveness of sins and strengthening of faith. It would be unbiblical and very sinful; scripture is very clear on the subject of Holy Communion.

  • Greg

    Steve writes:”The reformation triggered 30 years of bloody civil war in Europe and the Holocaust happened in a Christian nation not a Muslim one. ” You cannot blame the reformation for the 30 years war. The 30 years war was the Roman Catholic response to the reformation. The blood is on their hands not ours. As far as Hitler goes, he was not in any sense an orthodox Christian of any stripe. He was however a Darwinist. Darwinism was from its beginning a racist ideology and Hitler’s final solution fit into the survival of the fittest ideology. There is no place for racism in 6 day creationism. If we are all children of Adam and Noah than race is an illusion, a social construct. For the consistent Lutheran 6 day creationist there is only one race, the human race. Issues etc will be missed for its stalwart defense of the Gospel of Christ crucified for sinners.

  • Greg

    Steve writes:”The reformation triggered 30 years of bloody civil war in Europe and the Holocaust happened in a Christian nation not a Muslim one. ” You cannot blame the reformation for the 30 years war. The 30 years war was the Roman Catholic response to the reformation. The blood is on their hands not ours. As far as Hitler goes, he was not in any sense an orthodox Christian of any stripe. He was however a Darwinist. Darwinism was from its beginning a racist ideology and Hitler’s final solution fit into the survival of the fittest ideology. There is no place for racism in 6 day creationism. If we are all children of Adam and Noah than race is an illusion, a social construct. For the consistent Lutheran 6 day creationist there is only one race, the human race. Issues etc will be missed for its stalwart defense of the Gospel of Christ crucified for sinners.

  • Steve Rowe

    Hello Theresa

    I to believe that the bread and the wine are the body and blood of Christ so do the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox and a lot of Anglicans but we are not welcome at the rail in a LCMS church. What you mean when you say the words of the Nicene Creed? I really think this is the key there is only one holy catholic and Apostolic church it is not the same as (although it contains) many earthly denominations. As an aside look again at the half dozen of so reference to the Lord’s Supper that are in the New Testament this time without your preconceived theological filters. Are you’re really sure that this is an issue that should divide us?

    God Bless

  • Steve Rowe

    Hello Theresa

    I to believe that the bread and the wine are the body and blood of Christ so do the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox and a lot of Anglicans but we are not welcome at the rail in a LCMS church. What you mean when you say the words of the Nicene Creed? I really think this is the key there is only one holy catholic and Apostolic church it is not the same as (although it contains) many earthly denominations. As an aside look again at the half dozen of so reference to the Lord’s Supper that are in the New Testament this time without your preconceived theological filters. Are you’re really sure that this is an issue that should divide us?

    God Bless

  • Bror Erickson

    Steve Rowe,
    I don’t think you want to get in an argument with Montgomery. What you have written above does show great ignorance. No, our history as Christians has some dark sides to it. I am sure that Dr. Montgomery is very aware of those. But then that wasn’t quite the issue he was speaking to was it.
    In anycase it hink you could have benefited from a few more broadcasts of Issues etc.

  • Bror Erickson

    Steve Rowe,
    I don’t think you want to get in an argument with Montgomery. What you have written above does show great ignorance. No, our history as Christians has some dark sides to it. I am sure that Dr. Montgomery is very aware of those. But then that wasn’t quite the issue he was speaking to was it.
    In anycase it hink you could have benefited from a few more broadcasts of Issues etc.

  • Richard Lewer

    The issue of this thread is not whether you agree with the LCMS. The issue is whether the teachings of the LCMS will be allowed in the public square or whether they will be eliminated by the leadership of the LCMS itself.

    Steve brings up some good points for interesting discussion, but this is a family fight.

  • Richard Lewer

    The issue of this thread is not whether you agree with the LCMS. The issue is whether the teachings of the LCMS will be allowed in the public square or whether they will be eliminated by the leadership of the LCMS itself.

    Steve brings up some good points for interesting discussion, but this is a family fight.

  • Richard Lewer

    If he desired, Dr. Vieth could probably give a interesting exposition of the elimination of confessional Lutherans from positions of influence in the media of the LCMS. I do not, however, call on him to do so. He is doing great work.

  • Richard Lewer

    If he desired, Dr. Vieth could probably give a interesting exposition of the elimination of confessional Lutherans from positions of influence in the media of the LCMS. I do not, however, call on him to do so. He is doing great work.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Steve,

    No, it should not divide us. And true communion with Christ never divides us. It unites us perfectly with the very Savior who by His very blood, did all the uniting for us on the tree. His blood unites us in everything. And in every biblical doctrine. Those who commune at his table as He gives Himself to us are united in everything and with the whole church of all times and places by faith. We will not unite the churches by opening the rail. Christ already does at a closed rail. It is the pastor’s responsibility to shepherd that rail and as best as He is able teach the whole doctrine of God. Open communion is a sham unity. It pretends to let every Bible critic off the hook of God’s law and ends up ruining the unity that Christ has accomplished for us at His table. Steve, you should really check it out!

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Steve,

    No, it should not divide us. And true communion with Christ never divides us. It unites us perfectly with the very Savior who by His very blood, did all the uniting for us on the tree. His blood unites us in everything. And in every biblical doctrine. Those who commune at his table as He gives Himself to us are united in everything and with the whole church of all times and places by faith. We will not unite the churches by opening the rail. Christ already does at a closed rail. It is the pastor’s responsibility to shepherd that rail and as best as He is able teach the whole doctrine of God. Open communion is a sham unity. It pretends to let every Bible critic off the hook of God’s law and ends up ruining the unity that Christ has accomplished for us at His table. Steve, you should really check it out!

  • Greg

    I am curious now steve, have you tried to take communion at an LCMS church, told the Pastor that you believe in the real presence and been denied? I am curious because on the left coast closed communion tends to be understood in a real presence context. I doubt you would be denied the eucharist in many churches in california.

  • Greg

    I am curious now steve, have you tried to take communion at an LCMS church, told the Pastor that you believe in the real presence and been denied? I am curious because on the left coast closed communion tends to be understood in a real presence context. I doubt you would be denied the eucharist in many churches in california.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Oh, and Issues Etc. rocks! Bring it back fast LCMS!

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Oh, and Issues Etc. rocks! Bring it back fast LCMS!

  • Greg

    Amen Bryan

  • Greg

    Amen Bryan

  • Steve Rowe

    Off course Hitler was not any kind of Christian (orthodox or otherwise) he was some kind of strange Nordic neo-pagan but in a very real sense Germany was a Christian country and it’s confessing Christians both Lutheran, Reformed and Roman Catholic have a lot to answer for. I am convinced that “Two Kingdoms” theology was at the root of the weak Lutheran response to Nazism. I also don’t think we can rule out Luther’s own anti-Semitism as a contributing factor. Arguing over who started the thirty year war is like listening to children fighting in a sand box (He started it no He did!) nether side covered themselves in glory. As far as racism goes if the history of the United States or South Africa is any guide Orthodox Christianity (six day or otherwise) is no insurance against racism. I refer you to Mark Noll’s excellent book The Civil War as a Theological Crisis for a sobering illustration of how God fearing Men can believe the most appalling things.

  • Steve Rowe

    Off course Hitler was not any kind of Christian (orthodox or otherwise) he was some kind of strange Nordic neo-pagan but in a very real sense Germany was a Christian country and it’s confessing Christians both Lutheran, Reformed and Roman Catholic have a lot to answer for. I am convinced that “Two Kingdoms” theology was at the root of the weak Lutheran response to Nazism. I also don’t think we can rule out Luther’s own anti-Semitism as a contributing factor. Arguing over who started the thirty year war is like listening to children fighting in a sand box (He started it no He did!) nether side covered themselves in glory. As far as racism goes if the history of the United States or South Africa is any guide Orthodox Christianity (six day or otherwise) is no insurance against racism. I refer you to Mark Noll’s excellent book The Civil War as a Theological Crisis for a sobering illustration of how God fearing Men can believe the most appalling things.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Steve,

    Jesus rings the bell like mama used to and says to you come a get it. Nobody is keeping you from true unity except yourself. I don’t care that much about wars that long ago, but I do care about Christ’s Supper for you today. Find yourself a Lutheran Church tonight and enjoy the forgiveness that ought to be offered to your true repentant heart (if its there) at the beginning of the service. What are you waiting for?

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Steve,

    Jesus rings the bell like mama used to and says to you come a get it. Nobody is keeping you from true unity except yourself. I don’t care that much about wars that long ago, but I do care about Christ’s Supper for you today. Find yourself a Lutheran Church tonight and enjoy the forgiveness that ought to be offered to your true repentant heart (if its there) at the beginning of the service. What are you waiting for?

  • Greg

    The racism of which you speak was usually rooted in Calvinism, not Lutheranism. Perhaps two kingdom theology was at the week response of Christ and His apostles too Nero. But then the weak things of God are stronger than the strong things of men.

  • Greg

    The racism of which you speak was usually rooted in Calvinism, not Lutheranism. Perhaps two kingdom theology was at the week response of Christ and His apostles too Nero. But then the weak things of God are stronger than the strong things of men.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Oh, and Issues Etc. is my favorite radio show and I expect it back on the air in some form quickly, LCMS. Thanks for your support.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Oh, and Issues Etc. is my favorite radio show and I expect it back on the air in some form quickly, LCMS. Thanks for your support.

  • Steve Rowe

    Hello Greg

    Ironically I was welcome at the rail when I worshiped at of what I now understand was a renegade LCMS mission church at Ohio State when I was a student there in the early 90’s. I say ironically because at the time I was still at least nominally a reformed Baptist. Frankly I don’t visit LCMS chuches because the Eucharist is so important to me that I don’t want to risk not being able to receive it. The next time I am visiting a town that is host to one I will talk to the Priest.

    God Bless

    Steve

  • Steve Rowe

    Hello Greg

    Ironically I was welcome at the rail when I worshiped at of what I now understand was a renegade LCMS mission church at Ohio State when I was a student there in the early 90’s. I say ironically because at the time I was still at least nominally a reformed Baptist. Frankly I don’t visit LCMS chuches because the Eucharist is so important to me that I don’t want to risk not being able to receive it. The next time I am visiting a town that is host to one I will talk to the Priest.

    God Bless

    Steve

  • Greg

    May God bless you in your love of His Eucharist and the sacred gift of His body and blood! Folks lets pray for Issues, wilkin, the LCMS and Steve’s Anglicans. I am out o f this discussion today I have to preach in 4 hours. Bring back issues!

  • Greg

    May God bless you in your love of His Eucharist and the sacred gift of His body and blood! Folks lets pray for Issues, wilkin, the LCMS and Steve’s Anglicans. I am out o f this discussion today I have to preach in 4 hours. Bring back issues!

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Amen, Greg

    And Christ be with you, Steve.

    Gotta preach soon, too.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Amen, Greg

    And Christ be with you, Steve.

    Gotta preach soon, too.

  • Bror Erickson

    Steve Rowe,
    I am convinced that it was the two kingdom’s doctrine that was at the heart of resistance to Hitler in men like Herman Sasse, Kaj Munk, Dietrich Bonhoefer, and Bishop Bergrave. Unfortunately many who opine on it don’t understand it. So here is a library for you to check out before you make more ignorant statements: David mark Whitfor “Tyranny and Resistance, the Magdeburg Confession and the Lutheran Tradition, Uwe Siemon-Netto, “the Fabricated Luther, the rise and the Fall of the Shirer Myth,” Gene edward Veith “Modern Fascism, liquidating the Judeo-Christian Worldview.”

  • Bror Erickson

    Steve Rowe,
    I am convinced that it was the two kingdom’s doctrine that was at the heart of resistance to Hitler in men like Herman Sasse, Kaj Munk, Dietrich Bonhoefer, and Bishop Bergrave. Unfortunately many who opine on it don’t understand it. So here is a library for you to check out before you make more ignorant statements: David mark Whitfor “Tyranny and Resistance, the Magdeburg Confession and the Lutheran Tradition, Uwe Siemon-Netto, “the Fabricated Luther, the rise and the Fall of the Shirer Myth,” Gene edward Veith “Modern Fascism, liquidating the Judeo-Christian Worldview.”

  • Steve Rowe

    Thank’s for your prayers I need them more than you know.

    God bless

    Steve Rowe

    PS am I the only one on this Blog who is not a priest?

  • Steve Rowe

    Thank’s for your prayers I need them more than you know.

    God bless

    Steve Rowe

    PS am I the only one on this Blog who is not a priest?

  • http://www.cockahoop.com/ tODD

    Steve (@43): no. Plenty of laiety here. Or, at least, there’s me. And, as a guess, Organshoes, Sarah in Maryland, Theresa K, and … others?

  • http://www.cockahoop.com/ tODD

    Steve (@43): no. Plenty of laiety here. Or, at least, there’s me. And, as a guess, Organshoes, Sarah in Maryland, Theresa K, and … others?

  • http://viz.tumblr.com Tickletext

    This is unforgivably off topic but the mention of Kaj Munk makes me wonder if anyone here is familiar the astonishing film called Ordet (“The Word,” 1955), based on Munk’s play of the same title. If not, you are truly missing out. I’d be interested in what a Lutheran would have to say about it.

  • http://viz.tumblr.com Tickletext

    This is unforgivably off topic but the mention of Kaj Munk makes me wonder if anyone here is familiar the astonishing film called Ordet (“The Word,” 1955), based on Munk’s play of the same title. If not, you are truly missing out. I’d be interested in what a Lutheran would have to say about it.

  • http://viz.tumblr.com Tickletext

    “familiar WITH the astonishing film”

  • http://viz.tumblr.com Tickletext

    “familiar WITH the astonishing film”

  • fwsonnek

    #12 Greg

    homosexuality does not = sodomy.

    More effective to criticize a group justly than to appear ignorant or a jerk.

    Can you try to make your points with out crassly offending some of us here with prurious and sexually uncouth comments?

    That said, I really do appreciate almost all of your comments here Greg dear brother.

  • fwsonnek

    #12 Greg

    homosexuality does not = sodomy.

    More effective to criticize a group justly than to appear ignorant or a jerk.

    Can you try to make your points with out crassly offending some of us here with prurious and sexually uncouth comments?

    That said, I really do appreciate almost all of your comments here Greg dear brother.

  • organshoes

    Color me not offended.
    What a confession! You pastors–all of you resting up from tonight’s preaching for tomorrow night’s and Saturday night’s and Sunday morning’s, and thank God for you–you pastors probably benefited from Issues, Etc. as much as if not more than we lay people. Wilken only said what you mena are supposed to say, and do say, and probably often feel your faces have turned pretty blue.
    Our friend Steve is not unlike so many of us confessionals: we need it said again and again why we do what we do, practice as we practice, believe what and whom we believe.
    God bless your sundry flocks and ministries, and a blessed Triduum to all.

  • organshoes

    Color me not offended.
    What a confession! You pastors–all of you resting up from tonight’s preaching for tomorrow night’s and Saturday night’s and Sunday morning’s, and thank God for you–you pastors probably benefited from Issues, Etc. as much as if not more than we lay people. Wilken only said what you mena are supposed to say, and do say, and probably often feel your faces have turned pretty blue.
    Our friend Steve is not unlike so many of us confessionals: we need it said again and again why we do what we do, practice as we practice, believe what and whom we believe.
    God bless your sundry flocks and ministries, and a blessed Triduum to all.

  • organshoes

    I should’ve ended by saying ‘Now back to work, guys! It’s only Thursday!’

  • organshoes

    I should’ve ended by saying ‘Now back to work, guys! It’s only Thursday!’

  • organshoes

    Tickletext: I only heard of that movie the other day and was so intrigued by it.
    So funny — ironic — you should bring it up now. Hmm…

  • organshoes

    Tickletext: I only heard of that movie the other day and was so intrigued by it.
    So funny — ironic — you should bring it up now. Hmm…

  • Greg

    Frank says:”homosexuality does not = sodomy. ” Yes, Frank I know. I meant sodomy not homosexuality. I would not have a problem with Anglicans/Episcopalians embracing celibate homosexuals. It is the ordination of practicing homosexuals and blessing of same sex unions that I find unacceptable. It is the ecclesial acceptance of the sexual activity of homosexuals and not the persons that I find objectionable. As far as posts go yours often radiate the Gospel. I appreciate your clear articulation of our common theology.

  • Greg

    Frank says:”homosexuality does not = sodomy. ” Yes, Frank I know. I meant sodomy not homosexuality. I would not have a problem with Anglicans/Episcopalians embracing celibate homosexuals. It is the ordination of practicing homosexuals and blessing of same sex unions that I find unacceptable. It is the ecclesial acceptance of the sexual activity of homosexuals and not the persons that I find objectionable. As far as posts go yours often radiate the Gospel. I appreciate your clear articulation of our common theology.

  • Bror Erickson

    Tickletext,
    Sorry I am familiar with the life of the man, but not so much his works. Maybe if I knew where I could get my hands on a copy I would watch it. It would be interesting I’m sure.

  • Bror Erickson

    Tickletext,
    Sorry I am familiar with the life of the man, but not so much his works. Maybe if I knew where I could get my hands on a copy I would watch it. It would be interesting I’m sure.

  • Booklover

    I was dragged through “revival Christianity” (i.e. baptism, catechism, tradition, Lord’s Supper, etc. are not important–only a radical experience is) after being raised LCMS and after my marriage. All I can say is, radio programs like “Issues, etc.” and “White Horse Inn” and blogs like this one have kept me sane by showing me that indeed, there are other reformational Christians out there, and that revival Christianity is not all there is, and that my LCMS experience and life was REAL. I hope it comes back on the air.

  • Booklover

    I was dragged through “revival Christianity” (i.e. baptism, catechism, tradition, Lord’s Supper, etc. are not important–only a radical experience is) after being raised LCMS and after my marriage. All I can say is, radio programs like “Issues, etc.” and “White Horse Inn” and blogs like this one have kept me sane by showing me that indeed, there are other reformational Christians out there, and that revival Christianity is not all there is, and that my LCMS experience and life was REAL. I hope it comes back on the air.

  • http://none Marie K

    Marie K Says:

    March 21st, 2008 at 12:42 pm
    Since we know only a tiny piece of the story, (Issues ETC is off the air) we should not be quick to judge the decision. I am very curious as to what happened, as is anyone who is a listener to KFUO and Issues ETC, BUT we should not allow our curiousity lead to sinfulness in desiring information that is not due us, nor in fabricating a story from one perspective or the other! MAYBE as a protection for Todd, sometimes silence is best. If you are a friend and are so inclined, talk to him personally; I’m sure he needs your ear and heart of confidentiality, but then you don’t need me to tell you that! I’m sure the decision was not a flippant one without regard to the huge following of Issues ETC, keep KFUO and Todd in your prayers; for the Lord knows the hearts of all those involved, and ask for the Lord’s leading through this, so that blessings are born from this storm. Where forgiveness is needed from KFUO or Todd, or both, let it flow profusely in both ways, so that we can move on in ministry together to share the saving love of Christ with a dark sinful world. If you have felt that with Issues ETC being off the air will leave a hole in witnessing, doesn’t mean we have to be more intentional about our own witness?

    For anyone who feels the ravages of “the storm” please read–Isaiah 43!!! It is written personally to each of us!

  • http://none Marie K

    Marie K Says:

    March 21st, 2008 at 12:42 pm
    Since we know only a tiny piece of the story, (Issues ETC is off the air) we should not be quick to judge the decision. I am very curious as to what happened, as is anyone who is a listener to KFUO and Issues ETC, BUT we should not allow our curiousity lead to sinfulness in desiring information that is not due us, nor in fabricating a story from one perspective or the other! MAYBE as a protection for Todd, sometimes silence is best. If you are a friend and are so inclined, talk to him personally; I’m sure he needs your ear and heart of confidentiality, but then you don’t need me to tell you that! I’m sure the decision was not a flippant one without regard to the huge following of Issues ETC, keep KFUO and Todd in your prayers; for the Lord knows the hearts of all those involved, and ask for the Lord’s leading through this, so that blessings are born from this storm. Where forgiveness is needed from KFUO or Todd, or both, let it flow profusely in both ways, so that we can move on in ministry together to share the saving love of Christ with a dark sinful world. If you have felt that with Issues ETC being off the air will leave a hole in witnessing, doesn’t mean we have to be more intentional about our own witness?

    For anyone who feels the ravages of “the storm” please read–Isaiah 43!!! It is written personally to each of us!

  • organshoes

    I’d kinda like to think a friend would stick up for a friend.
    If my pastor had been thus dismissed, I’d be seekng answers.
    And, frankly, I’ve read very little that’s out of bounds from a Christian perspective. There’s more confusion and hurt than griping or gossiping.
    And we have the Wallace Schulz experience under our belts, so….it’s not exactly a lone, wayward act by the bureaucracy.
    They have a history, so to speak.

  • organshoes

    I’d kinda like to think a friend would stick up for a friend.
    If my pastor had been thus dismissed, I’d be seekng answers.
    And, frankly, I’ve read very little that’s out of bounds from a Christian perspective. There’s more confusion and hurt than griping or gossiping.
    And we have the Wallace Schulz experience under our belts, so….it’s not exactly a lone, wayward act by the bureaucracy.
    They have a history, so to speak.

  • fwsonnek

    #51 Greg

    dear brother. The problem is one of context.
    1) No one in the anglican church is saying “we want to legimize sodomy” now are they….
    2)sodomy is actually practiced by a minority of “practicing” homosexuals. It is also practiced widely by married and unmarried heterosexuals, many of them christians. I don’t believe anyone is really addressing the topic of the morality of sodomy per se. I could be wrong here. Please feel free to correct me.
    3) In context, it might be good to consider the homosexuals who read this blog, some of them perhaps have been alienated from the church by comments that look similar (acknowledging your sincere intent brother).
    4) Inflamatory sound-bites feel good for our ego when spoken but can I suggest that a more mild form of speaking to address this topic might serve our Lord’s kingdom and name in a more useful fashion?
    5) am I hearing that you think the church should actively welcome celebate homosexuals to become pastors and bishops in the church,and actively seek them out as prime missionary prospects for congretational membership as well? Interesting. I was not expecting that stance from you Greg.

  • fwsonnek

    #51 Greg

    dear brother. The problem is one of context.
    1) No one in the anglican church is saying “we want to legimize sodomy” now are they….
    2)sodomy is actually practiced by a minority of “practicing” homosexuals. It is also practiced widely by married and unmarried heterosexuals, many of them christians. I don’t believe anyone is really addressing the topic of the morality of sodomy per se. I could be wrong here. Please feel free to correct me.
    3) In context, it might be good to consider the homosexuals who read this blog, some of them perhaps have been alienated from the church by comments that look similar (acknowledging your sincere intent brother).
    4) Inflamatory sound-bites feel good for our ego when spoken but can I suggest that a more mild form of speaking to address this topic might serve our Lord’s kingdom and name in a more useful fashion?
    5) am I hearing that you think the church should actively welcome celebate homosexuals to become pastors and bishops in the church,and actively seek them out as prime missionary prospects for congretational membership as well? Interesting. I was not expecting that stance from you Greg.

  • fwsonnek

    HT to Dr Vieth for the diversity of comments that can happen on this site. I am rather surprised that the topic would come up.

  • fwsonnek

    HT to Dr Vieth for the diversity of comments that can happen on this site. I am rather surprised that the topic would come up.

  • Booklover

    I was able to hear Issues, Etc., on Pilgrim Radio here in Montana today (Easter) and yesterday.

  • Booklover

    I was able to hear Issues, Etc., on Pilgrim Radio here in Montana today (Easter) and yesterday.

  • Greg

    Frank-I admit my language was motivated by my anger at the ending of issues and our anglican friends defense of that decision. I do think you understand my point. What language do you think I should have used to make it? I used sodomy to refer to same gender sex. I was not using it to refer to a paticular sex practice.
    Now as to celebate homosexuals, I cannot think of a principal biblical or theological that would exclude them. Perhaps it might be seen as an endorsement of same gender sex. In that sense it might be problamatic. However, in and of itself, I don’t see it as any different than the ordination of a celebate single heterosexual.

  • Greg

    Frank-I admit my language was motivated by my anger at the ending of issues and our anglican friends defense of that decision. I do think you understand my point. What language do you think I should have used to make it? I used sodomy to refer to same gender sex. I was not using it to refer to a paticular sex practice.
    Now as to celebate homosexuals, I cannot think of a principal biblical or theological that would exclude them. Perhaps it might be seen as an endorsement of same gender sex. In that sense it might be problamatic. However, in and of itself, I don’t see it as any different than the ordination of a celebate single heterosexual.

  • Steve Rowe

    Hello all.

    I trust you all had a blessed Holy Week. The high light of mine was a joint Lutheran and Anglican Great rite with the renewal of our Baptismal vows complete with the sprinkling of holy water. The event was celebrated in a small 125 year old Victorian parish church on the shores of Georgian Bay and in the shadow of one of North American’s most sacred sites the shrine of Saint Marie among the Huron.
    I should also note that contrary to the impression I may have given earlier I am apposed to the ordination of none-celibate homosexuals to the Priesthood although I do not think that it is not an issue I would leave my church over (For not at least I have not had to face this issue in my dioceses). I however do not think that homosexual sin is any different from hetrosexual sin and that there is something unhealthy about how both the left and the right are abscessing over this issue.

    God Bless

    Steve Rowe

  • Steve Rowe

    Hello all.

    I trust you all had a blessed Holy Week. The high light of mine was a joint Lutheran and Anglican Great rite with the renewal of our Baptismal vows complete with the sprinkling of holy water. The event was celebrated in a small 125 year old Victorian parish church on the shores of Georgian Bay and in the shadow of one of North American’s most sacred sites the shrine of Saint Marie among the Huron.
    I should also note that contrary to the impression I may have given earlier I am apposed to the ordination of none-celibate homosexuals to the Priesthood although I do not think that it is not an issue I would leave my church over (For not at least I have not had to face this issue in my dioceses). I however do not think that homosexual sin is any different from hetrosexual sin and that there is something unhealthy about how both the left and the right are abscessing over this issue.

    God Bless

    Steve Rowe

  • Greg

    Steve, I don’t think any orthodox clergyman either Lutheran or Anglican would argue that homosexual sin is different than heterosexual sin. It might be interesting for you to share what you mean by broad church anglicanism. My impression is that anglicanism is divided into evangelical ( mostly Calvinist, I think), AngloCatholic and broadchurch groups with broadchurch being the liberal/modernist group. However, despite your evolutionary beliefs you do not seem to be that liberal modernist. So I would be interested in your definition of broadchurch.

  • Greg

    Steve, I don’t think any orthodox clergyman either Lutheran or Anglican would argue that homosexual sin is different than heterosexual sin. It might be interesting for you to share what you mean by broad church anglicanism. My impression is that anglicanism is divided into evangelical ( mostly Calvinist, I think), AngloCatholic and broadchurch groups with broadchurch being the liberal/modernist group. However, despite your evolutionary beliefs you do not seem to be that liberal modernist. So I would be interested in your definition of broadchurch.

  • Steve Rowe

    Hello Greg

    I think you right most liberals do tend to come out of the broad-church tradition but the tradition is not a liberal one per say. I have not conducted a detailed survey but in our dioceses most liberals seem to be Anglo-Catholic. You would not think that a belief in real presence would go along with advocating Gay marriage but in Toronto at least it tends to. At its best the Broad Church Tradition represents the historic middle road of the Reformation rejecting both the extreme Calvinism of the Low Churchman and Nostalgic Neo medievalism of the Anglo Catholics. At its worst I will grant you it can descend to a bland ecumenical social gospel. However one of the elements of my Evangelical Heritage I most cherish was its emphasis on “Mere Christianity” (I think there was once an Anglican who a book about it). To me at least this means cherishing and champing what Thomas Oden describes as “What was believed by every one in the early Church everywhere” (basically the early ecumenical creeds) and holding on to second tear doctrinal more gently. I will anticipate your comments that once we abandoned our commandment to what I feel to be a secondary point of doctian (either say real presence or limited election or God forbid the secret rapture of the Church) we are on a slippery slope to ecumenical decadence and I agree that in some cases this has been the case. I will how ever remind you that sometimes a flexible reed will bend where a stiffer one will break. Theological and spiritualy I am very much a work in process and at least for now I appreciate the way that my tradition borrows freely from the vast library of all of Church History in order make the Historic Gospel relevant to our “Post-Modern” and “Post Christian” age.

    Your bother in Christ

    Steve

  • Steve Rowe

    Hello Greg

    I think you right most liberals do tend to come out of the broad-church tradition but the tradition is not a liberal one per say. I have not conducted a detailed survey but in our dioceses most liberals seem to be Anglo-Catholic. You would not think that a belief in real presence would go along with advocating Gay marriage but in Toronto at least it tends to. At its best the Broad Church Tradition represents the historic middle road of the Reformation rejecting both the extreme Calvinism of the Low Churchman and Nostalgic Neo medievalism of the Anglo Catholics. At its worst I will grant you it can descend to a bland ecumenical social gospel. However one of the elements of my Evangelical Heritage I most cherish was its emphasis on “Mere Christianity” (I think there was once an Anglican who a book about it). To me at least this means cherishing and champing what Thomas Oden describes as “What was believed by every one in the early Church everywhere” (basically the early ecumenical creeds) and holding on to second tear doctrinal more gently. I will anticipate your comments that once we abandoned our commandment to what I feel to be a secondary point of doctian (either say real presence or limited election or God forbid the secret rapture of the Church) we are on a slippery slope to ecumenical decadence and I agree that in some cases this has been the case. I will how ever remind you that sometimes a flexible reed will bend where a stiffer one will break. Theological and spiritualy I am very much a work in process and at least for now I appreciate the way that my tradition borrows freely from the vast library of all of Church History in order make the Historic Gospel relevant to our “Post-Modern” and “Post Christian” age.

    Your bother in Christ

    Steve

  • Greg

    Steve-Unfortunately lax doctrinal discipline on secondary issues tends to go togeather with lax doctrinal discipline on those central credal issues that you mentioned. I would have less trouble with world Anglicanism or world Lutheranism for that matter if they demanded credal orthodoxy from their adherents. In the less conservative areas of Lutheranism many have abandoned the fundamental creed of the Church: He is Risen. Oh, you do realize that Lutherans don’t believe in the secret rapture doctrine don’t you?

  • Greg

    Steve-Unfortunately lax doctrinal discipline on secondary issues tends to go togeather with lax doctrinal discipline on those central credal issues that you mentioned. I would have less trouble with world Anglicanism or world Lutheranism for that matter if they demanded credal orthodoxy from their adherents. In the less conservative areas of Lutheranism many have abandoned the fundamental creed of the Church: He is Risen. Oh, you do realize that Lutherans don’t believe in the secret rapture doctrine don’t you?

  • Steve Rowe

    I was taking a jab at my own Evangelical heritage not your Lutheran one. I too would have fewer problems with Anglicanism to if the creeds were taken more seriously as well. If there were an Anglican Continuum Church in my town I would probably worship there but for now I am going to try to stay and fight (well at least pray hard) at my conventional main line (as well as relatively orthodox) local parish Church. My childhood spiritual life was shaped by a bitter Church spit over the issue of the “secret rapture” and I have no wish to relive experience.

  • Steve Rowe

    I was taking a jab at my own Evangelical heritage not your Lutheran one. I too would have fewer problems with Anglicanism to if the creeds were taken more seriously as well. If there were an Anglican Continuum Church in my town I would probably worship there but for now I am going to try to stay and fight (well at least pray hard) at my conventional main line (as well as relatively orthodox) local parish Church. My childhood spiritual life was shaped by a bitter Church spit over the issue of the “secret rapture” and I have no wish to relive experience.

  • fwsonnek

    #59 Greg

    “What language do you think I should have used to make it? I used sodomy to refer to same gender sex. I was not using it to refer to a paticular sex practice.”

    Dear brother. I do greatly appreciate the gentility of your response. My suggestion is a simple one. And probably the only possible biblical one:

    I would simply broaden the net to decry any sex outside of marriage.

    Perhaps even decry serial adultery in the form of divorce and remarriage.

    In this fashion you would not be creating a separate category of Law and Gospel for Homos, you would rather be including them, the LCMS, you and I in our common sin of dishonoring in various ways the great gift of intimacy and sex. I am extermely certain that every poster on this site has good cause for repentence for things done and left undone here.

    To use the word “sodomy” as a broadstroke way to label gay sex is probably unwise at best and misdirecting at worst by making a common sin shared by all something unique to homosexuals.

    I hope you realize that probably a majority of homosexuals never engage in penetrative sex. Kissing, heavy petting, masturbation are pretty much it for most.

    I am challenged to see the three things on the list I just gave as definately sin biblically in terms of condemning someone or excommunicating someone for those practices. I would hesitate to assume alot about same gender couples in terms of moral probity. I, for example, don’t have a clue what that anglican bishop in new hampshire does in bed with his significant other. I think it would probably wrong to insist on knowing. And there is no certainty that sin IS being committed there. So I am sort of amazed, after the episcopalians are cool with the bishops spong and pike before him, who deny basic facts of our faith, why THIS is the thing splitting the ELCA and the Anglicans. There is some unspoken element going on here it seems.

    Given what St Paul says about the irrisistibility of the sex drive we have, in terms of his advice to couples to only refrain from sex for a very brief time for fasting and prayer and even then only by mutual agreement, I am loathe to criticise two people who find themselves in a situation and want to avoid promiscuity and so pair off, depending of course, on the circumstances and details and what they actually DO do with each other, which I would not normally feel comfortable prying into, in the lives of other members of my church or others.

    St Paul says that celebacy is a gift that very few have. I have that “gift” currently by way of a medical condition. teens and folks in their prime with raging hormones do not. Man I really feel for them! What to do about them. “Just say no” does not seem like realistic advice in the face of what St Paul says by inspiration about the strenght of our sex drives.

    There are layers of misunderstanding and fear here. I know my posts here will not resolve them.

    The Lord’s Peace be with you Greg. I really appreciate your passion and your reasonableness displayed in your posts here.

  • fwsonnek

    #59 Greg

    “What language do you think I should have used to make it? I used sodomy to refer to same gender sex. I was not using it to refer to a paticular sex practice.”

    Dear brother. I do greatly appreciate the gentility of your response. My suggestion is a simple one. And probably the only possible biblical one:

    I would simply broaden the net to decry any sex outside of marriage.

    Perhaps even decry serial adultery in the form of divorce and remarriage.

    In this fashion you would not be creating a separate category of Law and Gospel for Homos, you would rather be including them, the LCMS, you and I in our common sin of dishonoring in various ways the great gift of intimacy and sex. I am extermely certain that every poster on this site has good cause for repentence for things done and left undone here.

    To use the word “sodomy” as a broadstroke way to label gay sex is probably unwise at best and misdirecting at worst by making a common sin shared by all something unique to homosexuals.

    I hope you realize that probably a majority of homosexuals never engage in penetrative sex. Kissing, heavy petting, masturbation are pretty much it for most.

    I am challenged to see the three things on the list I just gave as definately sin biblically in terms of condemning someone or excommunicating someone for those practices. I would hesitate to assume alot about same gender couples in terms of moral probity. I, for example, don’t have a clue what that anglican bishop in new hampshire does in bed with his significant other. I think it would probably wrong to insist on knowing. And there is no certainty that sin IS being committed there. So I am sort of amazed, after the episcopalians are cool with the bishops spong and pike before him, who deny basic facts of our faith, why THIS is the thing splitting the ELCA and the Anglicans. There is some unspoken element going on here it seems.

    Given what St Paul says about the irrisistibility of the sex drive we have, in terms of his advice to couples to only refrain from sex for a very brief time for fasting and prayer and even then only by mutual agreement, I am loathe to criticise two people who find themselves in a situation and want to avoid promiscuity and so pair off, depending of course, on the circumstances and details and what they actually DO do with each other, which I would not normally feel comfortable prying into, in the lives of other members of my church or others.

    St Paul says that celebacy is a gift that very few have. I have that “gift” currently by way of a medical condition. teens and folks in their prime with raging hormones do not. Man I really feel for them! What to do about them. “Just say no” does not seem like realistic advice in the face of what St Paul says by inspiration about the strenght of our sex drives.

    There are layers of misunderstanding and fear here. I know my posts here will not resolve them.

    The Lord’s Peace be with you Greg. I really appreciate your passion and your reasonableness displayed in your posts here.

  • sturmovik

    The only religion that Issues etc. got in trouble for criticizing is the religion one practiced in the purple palace; politics and power.
    The Synod’s modus operandi is this: ‘go along and get along, get out of the way or we’ll knock you down.”
    We no longer have a Synod, in which people walk together confessing the same faith, we have a old Soviet Politburo which concocts its 5 year plans and demands that they be done, and regardless of the outcome, the beaurocrats deem their folly a success.
    Issues etc. isn’t the only thing that’s dead. The constitution died 7 years ago. We are now governed by numbers, politics and money. The power grab began with the obfuscation of the right to dissent, and every year the power play goes on behind closed doors.
    Individuals who are members of LCMS congregations have four ways to register their displeasure. Their suffrage is corrupted and useless, voting with your pocketbook has prompted a ‘tax’ on churches, dissent is a maze of red tape, the only thing left is to vote with your feet. The Kieshnick commandos have made our right of Suffrage a laughingstock, they’ve attempted to reach into our church treasuries and take what they want, and now one cannot speak freely without risking your livelhood.

  • sturmovik

    The only religion that Issues etc. got in trouble for criticizing is the religion one practiced in the purple palace; politics and power.
    The Synod’s modus operandi is this: ‘go along and get along, get out of the way or we’ll knock you down.”
    We no longer have a Synod, in which people walk together confessing the same faith, we have a old Soviet Politburo which concocts its 5 year plans and demands that they be done, and regardless of the outcome, the beaurocrats deem their folly a success.
    Issues etc. isn’t the only thing that’s dead. The constitution died 7 years ago. We are now governed by numbers, politics and money. The power grab began with the obfuscation of the right to dissent, and every year the power play goes on behind closed doors.
    Individuals who are members of LCMS congregations have four ways to register their displeasure. Their suffrage is corrupted and useless, voting with your pocketbook has prompted a ‘tax’ on churches, dissent is a maze of red tape, the only thing left is to vote with your feet. The Kieshnick commandos have made our right of Suffrage a laughingstock, they’ve attempted to reach into our church treasuries and take what they want, and now one cannot speak freely without risking your livelhood.


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