Consortium for Classical Lutheran Education

Having plugged the CIRCE conference, below, let me also plug that of the Consortium for Classical Lutheran Education, which is having its annual conference here at Patrick Henry College just outside of Washington, D.C., on August 5-7. I’ll be speaking, among with many others.

If you are involved with a Lutheran parochial school, come and learn what it would take to make it “classical,” both theologically and pedagogically (in the meantime sending your academic quality through the roof).

If you are already blessed with a classical school, come to the conference to meet kindred spirits and to generate even more ideas. Homeschoolers are welcome!

We’re also planning a tour of our nation’s capital, with an emphasis on its classical heritage.

Go here for information.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Ryan

    The conference sounds great! I wish the CCLE website would have some direction for homeschoolers interested in Classical Lutheran education… we have neither a Classical Lutheran School nor a Lutheran School nearby.

  • Ryan

    The conference sounds great! I wish the CCLE website would have some direction for homeschoolers interested in Classical Lutheran education… we have neither a Classical Lutheran School nor a Lutheran School nearby.

  • http://www.sarcasmagorical.com Brant

    Ryan,
    I couldn’t agree more. My wife and I will be homeschoolers soon (our oldest is still only 2.5), and we’d love to use a classical approach in educating them – and a Lutheran, classical approach would be ideal. But, not having been classically educated, we don’t have much idea where to start.

    Commenters and/or Dr. Veith – do you have any good books to recommend to those of us who are just getting started?

  • http://www.sarcasmagorical.com Brant

    Ryan,
    I couldn’t agree more. My wife and I will be homeschoolers soon (our oldest is still only 2.5), and we’d love to use a classical approach in educating them – and a Lutheran, classical approach would be ideal. But, not having been classically educated, we don’t have much idea where to start.

    Commenters and/or Dr. Veith – do you have any good books to recommend to those of us who are just getting started?

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Ryan, Brant, very much interested in where Dr. Veith might direct us. As the father of four young children, I am also very interested in the possibilities of classical education, but I’m also fearful of it, because neither my wife nor myself were taught that way and our local Lutheran schools don’t seem to be very interested in even thinking about it. Not to mention the fact that homeschooling seems like such a difficult way to swim against the culture both outside and within the church.

    Where and how to BEGIN (on a very limited budget to boot)?

    Is there a good book or booklet to give Lutheran educators about this to help them see the possibilities toward steering an existing school toward a classical methodology (without making them mad)?

    Do such resources exist?

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Ryan, Brant, very much interested in where Dr. Veith might direct us. As the father of four young children, I am also very interested in the possibilities of classical education, but I’m also fearful of it, because neither my wife nor myself were taught that way and our local Lutheran schools don’t seem to be very interested in even thinking about it. Not to mention the fact that homeschooling seems like such a difficult way to swim against the culture both outside and within the church.

    Where and how to BEGIN (on a very limited budget to boot)?

    Is there a good book or booklet to give Lutheran educators about this to help them see the possibilities toward steering an existing school toward a classical methodology (without making them mad)?

    Do such resources exist?

  • http://www.geneveith.com Veith

    You don’t need to have had a classical education to give your children one, since under classicism children learn to use their own minds. The teacher on the grammar level is a coach (making sure the students practice); the teacher on the logic level is a conversationalist (asking questions and carrying on dialogue, making the students answer); the teacher on the rhetoric level is an audience (listening to the student’s presentations and reading what the student writes, giving feedback about what you don’t understand). That and giving the student good books to read and you have classical education.

    As for resources, get “The Well Trained Mind: Classical Education at Home” by Susan Wise Bauer: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/

    It contains literally everything you will need and more.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Veith

    You don’t need to have had a classical education to give your children one, since under classicism children learn to use their own minds. The teacher on the grammar level is a coach (making sure the students practice); the teacher on the logic level is a conversationalist (asking questions and carrying on dialogue, making the students answer); the teacher on the rhetoric level is an audience (listening to the student’s presentations and reading what the student writes, giving feedback about what you don’t understand). That and giving the student good books to read and you have classical education.

    As for resources, get “The Well Trained Mind: Classical Education at Home” by Susan Wise Bauer: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/

    It contains literally everything you will need and more.

  • Bruce

    Having been doing classical homeschooling (whatever, and I mean WHATEVER, that means, heheh) for fifteen years now, and having carefully perused the Bauer book, my wife has used rather extensively another volume that has helped her immensely, DESIGNING YOUR OWN CLASSICAL CURRICULUM by Laura Berquist. Published by Ignatius Press, which ought to tell you something.
    The choice for Lutherans, unfortunately, comes down to this: by guided by the Reformed, or be guided by the Catholics. The reason we prefer the Catholic approach is that they tend to keep their theology separate in their curriculum. Keeping it so means it is easier to use if you aren’t Catholic. The Reformed materials tend to be shot through with covenant theology, which can be confusing or at least irritating for a Lutheran educator. Bauer is unapologetically Reformed.

    This has been our experience anyway. My wife comes to Lutheranism from a Reformed background, and so is a bit more attuned–perhaps too much so?–to the distinctives and differences than many may be.

  • Bruce

    Having been doing classical homeschooling (whatever, and I mean WHATEVER, that means, heheh) for fifteen years now, and having carefully perused the Bauer book, my wife has used rather extensively another volume that has helped her immensely, DESIGNING YOUR OWN CLASSICAL CURRICULUM by Laura Berquist. Published by Ignatius Press, which ought to tell you something.
    The choice for Lutherans, unfortunately, comes down to this: by guided by the Reformed, or be guided by the Catholics. The reason we prefer the Catholic approach is that they tend to keep their theology separate in their curriculum. Keeping it so means it is easier to use if you aren’t Catholic. The Reformed materials tend to be shot through with covenant theology, which can be confusing or at least irritating for a Lutheran educator. Bauer is unapologetically Reformed.

    This has been our experience anyway. My wife comes to Lutheranism from a Reformed background, and so is a bit more attuned–perhaps too much so?–to the distinctives and differences than many may be.

  • Ryan

    I am familiar with the Bauer resource, and I will check into Berquist. I was more hoping that the Consortium would also be open to homeschooling, in our current climate parochial and home-schooling families should be on the same page, we are working toward the same goal. Especially in the area of Classical education.

    I have found a tension in my congregation from teachers, public and private, against homeschooling. I have even heard that some pastors are unsupportive (this pastor, i.e. me, of course is supportive).

    Lutheran Classical homeschooling has to be more than just a basic Classical curriculum and the Small Catechism. As was pointed out, the theology and worldview of the other materials has some overlap and some strong disagreements.

    We have a homeschool group in town that is mostly Christian, they are not liturgical, not sacramental, and are decision theology. They don’t know what to make of us as homeschooling Lutherans.

  • Ryan

    I am familiar with the Bauer resource, and I will check into Berquist. I was more hoping that the Consortium would also be open to homeschooling, in our current climate parochial and home-schooling families should be on the same page, we are working toward the same goal. Especially in the area of Classical education.

    I have found a tension in my congregation from teachers, public and private, against homeschooling. I have even heard that some pastors are unsupportive (this pastor, i.e. me, of course is supportive).

    Lutheran Classical homeschooling has to be more than just a basic Classical curriculum and the Small Catechism. As was pointed out, the theology and worldview of the other materials has some overlap and some strong disagreements.

    We have a homeschool group in town that is mostly Christian, they are not liturgical, not sacramental, and are decision theology. They don’t know what to make of us as homeschooling Lutherans.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Thanks. I better get reading.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Thanks. I better get reading.

  • Nemo

    Bruce #5 (or anyone else who cares to answer),

    Pardon my ignorance, but what is the Lutheran objection to “covenant theology”?

  • Nemo

    Bruce #5 (or anyone else who cares to answer),

    Pardon my ignorance, but what is the Lutheran objection to “covenant theology”?

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Nemo #8,

    Covenent Theology is always a 2-way deal between us and God. God has to do his part (usually more of the saving work), but then I have to do my part, too.

    Newer English translations haven’t helped us combat the encroachment of this false theology. They often translate the word for testament as covenant. But look up the definitions of those words, they are completely different concepts. Covenant is always 2 ways. A Testament is a one way deal put into effect through the death of the testator.

    Lutheran theology focuses on authentic New Testament theology probably because we so clearly define the differences between God’s works of Justification and Sanctification.

    The problem I have with a 2-way covenental way of thinking of salvation is. How do I ever know I have done my part good enough. In our theology I get to just admit that all of my works are never good enough, but Jesus’ work is. I think its a lot more comforting and it Jives with God’s Word better too. Hope this helps.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Nemo #8,

    Covenent Theology is always a 2-way deal between us and God. God has to do his part (usually more of the saving work), but then I have to do my part, too.

    Newer English translations haven’t helped us combat the encroachment of this false theology. They often translate the word for testament as covenant. But look up the definitions of those words, they are completely different concepts. Covenant is always 2 ways. A Testament is a one way deal put into effect through the death of the testator.

    Lutheran theology focuses on authentic New Testament theology probably because we so clearly define the differences between God’s works of Justification and Sanctification.

    The problem I have with a 2-way covenental way of thinking of salvation is. How do I ever know I have done my part good enough. In our theology I get to just admit that all of my works are never good enough, but Jesus’ work is. I think its a lot more comforting and it Jives with God’s Word better too. Hope this helps.

  • Nemo

    Bryan,

    Until last week (on Bror Erickson’s blog) I had no idea this was a controversy. It seems to me that the Lutherans have an interpretation of “covenant” that the “covenant theologians” (or at least many of them) would disagree with. Kind of like when the Reformed Christians accuse the Lutherans of setting up baptism as a work (something we do and necessary for salvation).

    That said, what is our/Noah’s part in the covenant of Gen. 9: 8-17?

    Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
    And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.”
    So God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth”

  • Nemo

    Bryan,

    Until last week (on Bror Erickson’s blog) I had no idea this was a controversy. It seems to me that the Lutherans have an interpretation of “covenant” that the “covenant theologians” (or at least many of them) would disagree with. Kind of like when the Reformed Christians accuse the Lutherans of setting up baptism as a work (something we do and necessary for salvation).

    That said, what is our/Noah’s part in the covenant of Gen. 9: 8-17?

    Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
    And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.”
    So God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth”

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Nemo Dude,

    We’re getting way off topic here, but I’ll answer you.

    God always cuts these covenants in the Old Testament. They are intimately connected to sacrifice and the shedding of blood. Here God even seems to connect this covenant to Human justice and the sanctity of human life (in the surrounding verses). There’s definitely a lot of Law in this covenant on us and Noah’s descendants to live up to the sort of guy Noah is described to be in order to be a part of this covenant. There’s a lot of Gospel too, of course. First of all is the promise that God won’t wipe us out with a flood again, and second of all the ultimate seed of Noah who fulfills all the demands of this covenant by the Testament of His blood. Good question, Nemo.

    I would like to hear Bruce’ answer to your question about our Lutheran caution towards Covenant Theology.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Nemo Dude,

    We’re getting way off topic here, but I’ll answer you.

    God always cuts these covenants in the Old Testament. They are intimately connected to sacrifice and the shedding of blood. Here God even seems to connect this covenant to Human justice and the sanctity of human life (in the surrounding verses). There’s definitely a lot of Law in this covenant on us and Noah’s descendants to live up to the sort of guy Noah is described to be in order to be a part of this covenant. There’s a lot of Gospel too, of course. First of all is the promise that God won’t wipe us out with a flood again, and second of all the ultimate seed of Noah who fulfills all the demands of this covenant by the Testament of His blood. Good question, Nemo.

    I would like to hear Bruce’ answer to your question about our Lutheran caution towards Covenant Theology.

  • Nemo

    Thanks for the answer, Bryan, it really helped me see where you are coming from.

    My Concordia Study Bible describes the Noahic covenant as “an unconditional divine promise” (along with the Abrahamic covenant found in Genesis 15:9-21). It’s not like God is going to flood the world again if no one has the faith of Noah. There are no conditions attached to the promise.

    If one accepts the commands surrounding God’s covenant with Noah as “our part” of the covenant, can one not also argue that Christ’s command to “do this in remembrance of me” is law? (Heresy I know, but to use a legal term, your argument proves too much.)

    Finally, do you believe the term “covenant of pure grace” to be an oxymoron? (Again, a term from my Concordia Study Bible, describing the New Covenant).

  • Nemo

    Thanks for the answer, Bryan, it really helped me see where you are coming from.

    My Concordia Study Bible describes the Noahic covenant as “an unconditional divine promise” (along with the Abrahamic covenant found in Genesis 15:9-21). It’s not like God is going to flood the world again if no one has the faith of Noah. There are no conditions attached to the promise.

    If one accepts the commands surrounding God’s covenant with Noah as “our part” of the covenant, can one not also argue that Christ’s command to “do this in remembrance of me” is law? (Heresy I know, but to use a legal term, your argument proves too much.)

    Finally, do you believe the term “covenant of pure grace” to be an oxymoron? (Again, a term from my Concordia Study Bible, describing the New Covenant).

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Nemo, if you want to take, Eat your breakfast, as a command, well then you won’t enjoy your orange juice quite so much. But it will still be good for you and it still may taste good.

    I read Jesus’ exhortation, “Do this…” more as His bangin’ the bottom of the pan and yelling out the invitation: “Come and get it!” to the Lord’s Supper. He has done all the work, given all the gifts, prepared the meal, and attached His promise to it.” If you want to pat yourself on the back for doing it so well, go right ahead. But he never calls what He’s doing in the Lord’s Supper a covenant.

    And yes, I do believe the term “covenant of pure grace” is an oxymoron, because it doesn’t make any sense in English in terms of what the words actually mean. Here (as in other places in my NIV Study Bible, too) the Reformed bias of the commentary is revealed. This is why it is good encouragement to spend more time up above in the actual text than down below in the silly commentaries. God’s Word is clear after all. Commentaries can be helpful at times, but sometimes they just aren’t. Again, good questions, Nemo.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Nemo, if you want to take, Eat your breakfast, as a command, well then you won’t enjoy your orange juice quite so much. But it will still be good for you and it still may taste good.

    I read Jesus’ exhortation, “Do this…” more as His bangin’ the bottom of the pan and yelling out the invitation: “Come and get it!” to the Lord’s Supper. He has done all the work, given all the gifts, prepared the meal, and attached His promise to it.” If you want to pat yourself on the back for doing it so well, go right ahead. But he never calls what He’s doing in the Lord’s Supper a covenant.

    And yes, I do believe the term “covenant of pure grace” is an oxymoron, because it doesn’t make any sense in English in terms of what the words actually mean. Here (as in other places in my NIV Study Bible, too) the Reformed bias of the commentary is revealed. This is why it is good encouragement to spend more time up above in the actual text than down below in the silly commentaries. God’s Word is clear after all. Commentaries can be helpful at times, but sometimes they just aren’t. Again, good questions, Nemo.

  • http://www.homesteadblogger.com/gonorthyoungpack Jenn Wolf

    We’re Lutheran, we’re Classical (more or less – we unschool a lot too), we’re homeschoolers, and I’m planning on going to the CCLE in Aug. I’ve got WTM, I’ve also got the Bluedorns book Teaching the Trivium – it is VERY heavy on fundamentalist theology but it has a lot of good info too. I would also recommend School can Wait or Better Late than Early by Raymond and Dorothy Moore (not classical specifically but talks to waiting to start the kids – like in the classical tradition). If you’re intimidated by the curriculum building there’s also Tapestry of Grace which I’m considering getting so I can manage teaching and unpacking and chickens and goats this year (it’s a lot for one 3 month period but that’s homeschool life).

    I was not classically trained – I always feel stupid around people who were (and I didn’t have that bad of an education). However, on that note a really nice accompaniment to WTM is Well Educated Mind by Bauer. It is for grown ups and it is intimidating. :)

    There are also quite a few websites for classical education – if you just google classical homeschooling you’ll come up with a few.

    Hope this helps some! We’re also a bit eclectic I guess!
    In Christ
    Jenn at Bull Run who’s going to write a curriculum in my next life!

  • http://www.homesteadblogger.com/gonorthyoungpack Jenn Wolf

    We’re Lutheran, we’re Classical (more or less – we unschool a lot too), we’re homeschoolers, and I’m planning on going to the CCLE in Aug. I’ve got WTM, I’ve also got the Bluedorns book Teaching the Trivium – it is VERY heavy on fundamentalist theology but it has a lot of good info too. I would also recommend School can Wait or Better Late than Early by Raymond and Dorothy Moore (not classical specifically but talks to waiting to start the kids – like in the classical tradition). If you’re intimidated by the curriculum building there’s also Tapestry of Grace which I’m considering getting so I can manage teaching and unpacking and chickens and goats this year (it’s a lot for one 3 month period but that’s homeschool life).

    I was not classically trained – I always feel stupid around people who were (and I didn’t have that bad of an education). However, on that note a really nice accompaniment to WTM is Well Educated Mind by Bauer. It is for grown ups and it is intimidating. :)

    There are also quite a few websites for classical education – if you just google classical homeschooling you’ll come up with a few.

    Hope this helps some! We’re also a bit eclectic I guess!
    In Christ
    Jenn at Bull Run who’s going to write a curriculum in my next life!

  • http://lotzastitches.blogspot.com/ Laurie

    I’d recommend _Latin Centered Curriculum_ by Andrew Campbell. It is published by Memoria Press.

  • http://lotzastitches.blogspot.com/ Laurie

    I’d recommend _Latin Centered Curriculum_ by Andrew Campbell. It is published by Memoria Press.

  • Kathy

    Well, I never knew Mr. Veith had a blog (thrilled to see it) and this is the first post I came upon. Ryan, Brant and Bryan – as a public school educated mom who now homeschools primarily classically (although learning)you certainly can educate your children classically at home without having been classically educated yourself – there are so many great resources to guide you. As well as the Well Trained Mind Mr. Veith recommended I also love the Veritas Press website and catalogue (and will note that Mr. Veith or his wife – I can’t remember? – wrote some of the readers used in the VP Phonics Museum). Truly one of the benefits of homeschooling is learning alongside our children, and as you educate them classically you get to learn so much yourself.
    There is also the “Martin Looper” list, which while not specifically classical, is specifically LCMS Lutheran homeschoolers, some of which homeschool classically, and is a very active e-mail list – you can join here if interested: http://www.cat41.org/Loopers/index.htm .
    Kathy (LCMS pastor’s wife and homeschooling mom to 4 great kids, who is jealous that Jenn gets to go to the CCLE! :) )

  • Kathy

    Well, I never knew Mr. Veith had a blog (thrilled to see it) and this is the first post I came upon. Ryan, Brant and Bryan – as a public school educated mom who now homeschools primarily classically (although learning)you certainly can educate your children classically at home without having been classically educated yourself – there are so many great resources to guide you. As well as the Well Trained Mind Mr. Veith recommended I also love the Veritas Press website and catalogue (and will note that Mr. Veith or his wife – I can’t remember? – wrote some of the readers used in the VP Phonics Museum). Truly one of the benefits of homeschooling is learning alongside our children, and as you educate them classically you get to learn so much yourself.
    There is also the “Martin Looper” list, which while not specifically classical, is specifically LCMS Lutheran homeschoolers, some of which homeschool classically, and is a very active e-mail list – you can join here if interested: http://www.cat41.org/Loopers/index.htm .
    Kathy (LCMS pastor’s wife and homeschooling mom to 4 great kids, who is jealous that Jenn gets to go to the CCLE! :) )

  • http://www.sarcasmagorical.com Brant

    Hi all,
    I just wanted to say thank you to all who have left suggestions for books and such. It is an encouragement to see other classical homeschoolers out there.

    Brant

  • http://www.sarcasmagorical.com Brant

    Hi all,
    I just wanted to say thank you to all who have left suggestions for books and such. It is an encouragement to see other classical homeschoolers out there.

    Brant

  • http://www.bethlehemrivergrove.org Lauri Schmeiser

    You Lutheran classical homeschoolers aren’t alone! There aren’t that many Lutheran classical schools around, either–and some of us are still “enroute” to that destination. My teachers complain that all our curriculum comes from homeschool resources! Bit by bit I think we’ll develop a classical Lutheran curriculum. Watch for stuff by Joel Brondos (St. Paul Brookfield, IL) or Peter Bender (Peace, Sussex WI). Along with Berquist and Bauer, look at Shurley English (they have homeschool materials), Saxon math (they do, too), and watch for local seminars on Spalding’s Writing Road to Reading. So far most of the seminars I’ve attending on classical education are a bit high-brow; I think it’s because we’re all still trying to figure out exactly how to explain it. I started with Bauer and just kept gleaning resources!

  • http://www.bethlehemrivergrove.org Lauri Schmeiser

    You Lutheran classical homeschoolers aren’t alone! There aren’t that many Lutheran classical schools around, either–and some of us are still “enroute” to that destination. My teachers complain that all our curriculum comes from homeschool resources! Bit by bit I think we’ll develop a classical Lutheran curriculum. Watch for stuff by Joel Brondos (St. Paul Brookfield, IL) or Peter Bender (Peace, Sussex WI). Along with Berquist and Bauer, look at Shurley English (they have homeschool materials), Saxon math (they do, too), and watch for local seminars on Spalding’s Writing Road to Reading. So far most of the seminars I’ve attending on classical education are a bit high-brow; I think it’s because we’re all still trying to figure out exactly how to explain it. I started with Bauer and just kept gleaning resources!

  • Steve

    There was an attempt to provide conversation for classical Lutheran homeschoolers on Facebook within a group called Christ Lutheran Academy. Angie Hill, Kathleen Hein and some others have made some comments there. No activity has happened recently.

  • Steve

    There was an attempt to provide conversation for classical Lutheran homeschoolers on Facebook within a group called Christ Lutheran Academy. Angie Hill, Kathleen Hein and some others have made some comments there. No activity has happened recently.

  • Bob

    My son did his high school through Biola’s STAR Torrey Academy and would like to now attend their Torrey Honors Institute for his undergraduate studies. Their classical education was excellent but not Lutheran. What college would you suggest for his studies? Is there a conservative Lutheran option for those who want to continue with a classical education?

  • Bob

    My son did his high school through Biola’s STAR Torrey Academy and would like to now attend their Torrey Honors Institute for his undergraduate studies. Their classical education was excellent but not Lutheran. What college would you suggest for his studies? Is there a conservative Lutheran option for those who want to continue with a classical education?

  • http://www.geneveith.com Veith

    Not really. Patrick Henry College, where I am, has several Lutherans on the faculty.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Veith

    Not really. Patrick Henry College, where I am, has several Lutherans on the faculty.

  • beth

    You know if you love Jesus you will obey Jesus. it isn’t a question of being good enough or simpley believing in him. it is a question of will y ou do what he says.

  • beth

    You know if you love Jesus you will obey Jesus. it isn’t a question of being good enough or simpley believing in him. it is a question of will y ou do what he says.


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