Free Enterprise Health Care Reforms

Here are some ideas for health care reform from John Mackey, the CEO of Whole Foods markets:

• Remove the legal obstacles that slow the creation of high-deductible health insurance plans and health savings accounts (HSAs). The combination of high-deductible health insurance and HSAs is one solution that could solve many of our health-care problems. For example, Whole Foods Market pays 100% of the premiums for all our team members who work 30 hours or more per week (about 89% of all team members) for our high-deductible health-insurance plan. We also provide up to $1,800 per year in additional health-care dollars through deposits into employees’ Personal Wellness Accounts to spend as they choose on their own health and wellness.

Money not spent in one year rolls over to the next and grows over time. Our team members therefore spend their own health-care dollars until the annual deductible is covered (about $2,500) and the insurance plan kicks in. This creates incentives to spend the first $2,500 more carefully. Our plan’s costs are much lower than typical health insurance, while providing a very high degree of worker satisfaction.

• Equalize the tax laws so that that employer-provided health insurance and individually owned health insurance have the same tax benefits. Now employer health insurance benefits are fully tax deductible, but individual health insurance is not. This is unfair.

• Repeal all state laws which prevent insurance companies from competing across state lines. We should all have the legal right to purchase health insurance from any insurance company in any state and we should be able use that insurance wherever we live. Health insurance should be portable.

• Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies must cover. These mandates have increased the cost of health insurance by billions of dollars. What is insured and what is not insured should be determined by individual customer preferences and not through special-interest lobbying.

• Enact tort reform to end the ruinous lawsuits that force doctors to pay insurance costs of hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. These costs are passed back to us through much higher prices for health care.

• Make costs transparent so that consumers understand what health-care treatments cost. How many people know the total cost of their last doctor’s visit and how that total breaks down? What other goods or services do we buy without knowing how much they will cost us?

• Enact Medicare reform. We need to face up to the actuarial fact that Medicare is heading towards bankruptcy and enact reforms that create greater patient empowerment, choice and responsibility.

• Finally, revise tax forms to make it easier for individuals to make a voluntary, tax-deductible donation to help the millions of people who have no insurance and aren’t covered by Medicare, Medicaid or the State Children’s Health Insurance Program.

What would be wrong with these?

I’m especially intrigued with his first proposal, combining cheaper high-deductible insurance with medical savings accounts–with a substantial amount contributed by the employer that would pay the deductible but that could accumulate if it isn’t used.

UPDATE: Many liberals are furious that Mr. Mackey has spoken his mind on this issue. They have been shopping at Whole Foods, feeling good about themselves for their environmentalism, unaware that Mr. Mackey is a crunchy-libertarian. For his advocacy of free market health care reform, liberals are organizing a boycott. Under that mindset, dissent is not allowed.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • plauer

    Our congregation uses the high deductible + HSA combination provided by our health insurer (WBP) as “Options Blue.” The congregation initially saved nearly $5,000 per family in premiums (we cover the whole family) and returned half to the worker as an employer contribution to the HSA. An individual worker has NO out of pocket expenses. Anyone who opts-out (say, because a spouse is insured) still gets the $2,500. With 5 full time employees, the congregation saved $12,500 the first year and everyone’s out-of-pocket went down! Why? Because if we watch our expenses the difference rolls over to following years. I have my half of the high-deductible contributed from my salary pre-tax. Those HSA dollars can also be used for medical/dental expenses not covered for my plan. So, since I expect to have $1,500 roll over into next year, I will have already “saved” (health savings account) $3,000 for my daughter’s braces which are expected next year, all because I’m watching what I spend my health care dollars on. We’ll still be spending $3,500 on basic health care and the congregation has basically insured us for “major medical.” Finally, the congregation continues to save because as premiums rise as a percentage of a lower amounts they rise more slowly. I’m a believer: Provide major medical for the whole family and share the savings with the employees to manage on their own.

  • plauer

    Our congregation uses the high deductible + HSA combination provided by our health insurer (WBP) as “Options Blue.” The congregation initially saved nearly $5,000 per family in premiums (we cover the whole family) and returned half to the worker as an employer contribution to the HSA. An individual worker has NO out of pocket expenses. Anyone who opts-out (say, because a spouse is insured) still gets the $2,500. With 5 full time employees, the congregation saved $12,500 the first year and everyone’s out-of-pocket went down! Why? Because if we watch our expenses the difference rolls over to following years. I have my half of the high-deductible contributed from my salary pre-tax. Those HSA dollars can also be used for medical/dental expenses not covered for my plan. So, since I expect to have $1,500 roll over into next year, I will have already “saved” (health savings account) $3,000 for my daughter’s braces which are expected next year, all because I’m watching what I spend my health care dollars on. We’ll still be spending $3,500 on basic health care and the congregation has basically insured us for “major medical.” Finally, the congregation continues to save because as premiums rise as a percentage of a lower amounts they rise more slowly. I’m a believer: Provide major medical for the whole family and share the savings with the employees to manage on their own.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Major medical coverage is awesome for a very simple reason; since they’re not paying for everything, they don’t try to control everything.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Major medical coverage is awesome for a very simple reason; since they’re not paying for everything, they don’t try to control everything.

  • david in norcal

    How does someone with a disability exist in a system like this? There’s nothing to stop the cherry picking that goes on with uderwriting and there’s nothing to change exclusions of preexisting conditions. Why are so few on the right looking at how other countries with better outcomes and higher satisfaction with their universal health systems? Why does that seem to be excluded from the debate in this country? Perhaps there are reasons why nearly all of the wealthiest countries in the world have diminished if not eliminated market influence within their health care systems.

  • david in norcal

    How does someone with a disability exist in a system like this? There’s nothing to stop the cherry picking that goes on with uderwriting and there’s nothing to change exclusions of preexisting conditions. Why are so few on the right looking at how other countries with better outcomes and higher satisfaction with their universal health systems? Why does that seem to be excluded from the debate in this country? Perhaps there are reasons why nearly all of the wealthiest countries in the world have diminished if not eliminated market influence within their health care systems.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    I was amazed at the Whole Foods piece, always having considered it a Liberal stronghold.
    WHO KNEW? Typical for some to feel betrayed when someone’s gone off the plantation. And so unAmerican.
    David in norcal, many conservatives do look at the EUropean models and aren’t as impressed as some are. The media’s not always truthful; many Americans STILL think Germans get free medical care!
    I feel we need to help the uninsured but, when 85% of Americans like their healthcare as it is, it’s a curiosity that one party wants to completely overhaul and is so disdainful of those who disagree.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    I was amazed at the Whole Foods piece, always having considered it a Liberal stronghold.
    WHO KNEW? Typical for some to feel betrayed when someone’s gone off the plantation. And so unAmerican.
    David in norcal, many conservatives do look at the EUropean models and aren’t as impressed as some are. The media’s not always truthful; many Americans STILL think Germans get free medical care!
    I feel we need to help the uninsured but, when 85% of Americans like their healthcare as it is, it’s a curiosity that one party wants to completely overhaul and is so disdainful of those who disagree.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    David, what was historically done (and is still done today) for those who were ill through no fault of their own was to pass the hat around. Given that employer paid comprehensive coverage for my family is around $1200/month, and high deductible around $500/month, that leaves a LOT of money available for helping out a weaker brother.

    Moreover, there are no nations with better outcomes than the U.S. when it comes to survivability of a condition. There are nations with better infant mortality and longer lifespan and such, but that mixes the issues of lifestyle and hereditary inputs with the actual quality of healthcare.

    When you take a look at specific issues–”what is the survival percentage after five years for this cancer or heart condition?”–you quickly find that if you’ve got to be sick, you want to do it here. If we had the same quality of healthcare as they have in Europe, for example, that would result in an extra 200,000 premature deaths annually.

    We may not like how much we’re spending, but arguably we’re getting a LOT for our money.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    David, what was historically done (and is still done today) for those who were ill through no fault of their own was to pass the hat around. Given that employer paid comprehensive coverage for my family is around $1200/month, and high deductible around $500/month, that leaves a LOT of money available for helping out a weaker brother.

    Moreover, there are no nations with better outcomes than the U.S. when it comes to survivability of a condition. There are nations with better infant mortality and longer lifespan and such, but that mixes the issues of lifestyle and hereditary inputs with the actual quality of healthcare.

    When you take a look at specific issues–”what is the survival percentage after five years for this cancer or heart condition?”–you quickly find that if you’ve got to be sick, you want to do it here. If we had the same quality of healthcare as they have in Europe, for example, that would result in an extra 200,000 premature deaths annually.

    We may not like how much we’re spending, but arguably we’re getting a LOT for our money.

  • http://jen-lehmann.livejournal.com Jen

    Both my husband and I had HSAs at our previous employers, and in both situations it was a mess. I’m not saying it can’t work well, but the transition has to be handled by people who know what they’re doing. In my case, neither the insurance agent nor the church accountant understood the procedure well enough to explain it clearly to the rest of us. In his case, it was the church council that made the decision and there was no one on board who understood more than that it was supposed to save money. After I was in a car accident, I chose not to go to the doctor because I would have had to pay for a $100 X-ray out of my pocket and wait for insurance to repay me, and I wasn’t able to afford that.

    Bike, the relatively high infant mortality rate in this country has quite a bit to do with our health care, although I would blame a combination of insurance companies and the litigious society we live in. We have a corresponding high rate of Caesarean sections. If either of these plans allows for more options in pre-natal care and birth, I’ll be for it.

  • http://jen-lehmann.livejournal.com Jen

    Both my husband and I had HSAs at our previous employers, and in both situations it was a mess. I’m not saying it can’t work well, but the transition has to be handled by people who know what they’re doing. In my case, neither the insurance agent nor the church accountant understood the procedure well enough to explain it clearly to the rest of us. In his case, it was the church council that made the decision and there was no one on board who understood more than that it was supposed to save money. After I was in a car accident, I chose not to go to the doctor because I would have had to pay for a $100 X-ray out of my pocket and wait for insurance to repay me, and I wasn’t able to afford that.

    Bike, the relatively high infant mortality rate in this country has quite a bit to do with our health care, although I would blame a combination of insurance companies and the litigious society we live in. We have a corresponding high rate of Caesarean sections. If either of these plans allows for more options in pre-natal care and birth, I’ll be for it.

  • Jim

    I don’t like recommendation #4 regarding “tort reform.” If a doctor hurts a patient because of his or her own negligence, it’s only right the the doctor compensate the patient for the damage the doctor’s negligence imposed on the patient.

    The notion that the rest of us should save $10 on our doctor’s bill by not allowing patients injured by negligent doctors to recover the full amount of their injury is simply wrong.

    (I should probably note that I’m not a lawyer and don’t particularly like trial lawyers. But torts are actually a free-market means of allocating costs for negligence — incompetent physicians should pay more for their insurance than competent doctors. Limitations on tort awards are anti-free market proposals.)

  • Jim

    I don’t like recommendation #4 regarding “tort reform.” If a doctor hurts a patient because of his or her own negligence, it’s only right the the doctor compensate the patient for the damage the doctor’s negligence imposed on the patient.

    The notion that the rest of us should save $10 on our doctor’s bill by not allowing patients injured by negligent doctors to recover the full amount of their injury is simply wrong.

    (I should probably note that I’m not a lawyer and don’t particularly like trial lawyers. But torts are actually a free-market means of allocating costs for negligence — incompetent physicians should pay more for their insurance than competent doctors. Limitations on tort awards are anti-free market proposals.)

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    That is the liberal mindset.

    Destroy a person’s right to make a living because they disagree with you.

    We saw this in California’s recent ‘gay marriage’ vote.

    The Left is vicious, and they do not care one bit about whom they hurt (even the innocent bystanders who happen to be employed at Whole Foods.

    I never shpped there before, but I will seek one out and do some shopping there.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    That is the liberal mindset.

    Destroy a person’s right to make a living because they disagree with you.

    We saw this in California’s recent ‘gay marriage’ vote.

    The Left is vicious, and they do not care one bit about whom they hurt (even the innocent bystanders who happen to be employed at Whole Foods.

    I never shpped there before, but I will seek one out and do some shopping there.

  • scots

    >>They have been shopping at Whole Foods, feeling good about themselves for their environmentalism, unaware that Mr. Mackey is a crunchy-libertarian.<<

    It makes one laugh doesn’t it.

    HAHAHAHAHA!!!

  • scots

    >>They have been shopping at Whole Foods, feeling good about themselves for their environmentalism, unaware that Mr. Mackey is a crunchy-libertarian.<<

    It makes one laugh doesn’t it.

    HAHAHAHAHA!!!

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Scots…I loved that part, too! Maybe they’re going to picket because they’re embarrassed more than anything else!?

    Jim, I don’t believe ANYBODY is suggesting a doctor who really hurts someone shouldn’t pay for that. An interesting topic would be if someone has a doctor hurt a foot, for example, and a man can’t walk anymore without help of some kind, does the man deserve millions more than he’d have EVER had the ability to make as an able bodied person? That’s the question, I think.
    Plus, if someone slips in a tiny puddle at the grocery store, left by a well meaning mopping employee, must the store pay millions because the person slipped? There has to be SOME kind of checks and balances….it’s become a cottage industry to get as MUCH as we can if we’re harmed in any way, and how many injuries were on purpose? NONE, perhaps?

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Scots…I loved that part, too! Maybe they’re going to picket because they’re embarrassed more than anything else!?

    Jim, I don’t believe ANYBODY is suggesting a doctor who really hurts someone shouldn’t pay for that. An interesting topic would be if someone has a doctor hurt a foot, for example, and a man can’t walk anymore without help of some kind, does the man deserve millions more than he’d have EVER had the ability to make as an able bodied person? That’s the question, I think.
    Plus, if someone slips in a tiny puddle at the grocery store, left by a well meaning mopping employee, must the store pay millions because the person slipped? There has to be SOME kind of checks and balances….it’s become a cottage industry to get as MUCH as we can if we’re harmed in any way, and how many injuries were on purpose? NONE, perhaps?

  • J

    It didn’t take much for find the following online. Don’t these conservatives care who they hurt with these boycotts?

    —–

    The conservative American Family Association is launching a boycott against McDonald’s in response to the fast-food chain’s support of the National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce (NGLCC).

    Richard Ellis, vice president of communications for McDonald’s USA, has been appointed to the NGLCC board of directors and McDonald’s contributed $20,000 to the organization.

    On its Web site, the NGLCC identified McDonald’s as a “Corporate Partner and Organization Ally.” The AFA set up a petition on its Web site.

    This is not the first boycott organized by the pro-family conservative group. In May 2005, the group launched a boycott of the Ford Motor Company because of its marketing outreach to homosexual activist groups – that boycott ended only recently. According to the AFA, over 780,000 people signed the petition to boycott Ford.

  • J

    It didn’t take much for find the following online. Don’t these conservatives care who they hurt with these boycotts?

    —–

    The conservative American Family Association is launching a boycott against McDonald’s in response to the fast-food chain’s support of the National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce (NGLCC).

    Richard Ellis, vice president of communications for McDonald’s USA, has been appointed to the NGLCC board of directors and McDonald’s contributed $20,000 to the organization.

    On its Web site, the NGLCC identified McDonald’s as a “Corporate Partner and Organization Ally.” The AFA set up a petition on its Web site.

    This is not the first boycott organized by the pro-family conservative group. In May 2005, the group launched a boycott of the Ford Motor Company because of its marketing outreach to homosexual activist groups – that boycott ended only recently. According to the AFA, over 780,000 people signed the petition to boycott Ford.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Ben and Jerry make great ice cream…and I purchase it.

    But they are over the edge Leftists.

    So what?

    Am I to research the politics of eveyone who supplies a good or service and then make my decision? NO!

    Not unless they cross some line of evil or incivility.

    Other than that, I get the best product at the best price.

    I even go a movie once in every 5 years in spite of what those morons believe.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Ben and Jerry make great ice cream…and I purchase it.

    But they are over the edge Leftists.

    So what?

    Am I to research the politics of eveyone who supplies a good or service and then make my decision? NO!

    Not unless they cross some line of evil or incivility.

    Other than that, I get the best product at the best price.

    I even go a movie once in every 5 years in spite of what those morons believe.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Its a conspiracy, I tell ya, between the CEOs of the groceries to take advantage of the body politic to bust open new markets! Doesn’t this all seem a little too convenient for Walmart and Whole Foods? Just who’s pulling who’s strings here? My wife suddenly wants to get all organic with the food (okay, maybe not so suddenly) – watch out! :)

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Its a conspiracy, I tell ya, between the CEOs of the groceries to take advantage of the body politic to bust open new markets! Doesn’t this all seem a little too convenient for Walmart and Whole Foods? Just who’s pulling who’s strings here? My wife suddenly wants to get all organic with the food (okay, maybe not so suddenly) – watch out! :)

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Call me skeptical on blaming health care for the higher infant mortality rate. Here is the CDC’s Pareto:

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5642a8.htm

    Notice that congenital malformation and “short gestation/low birthweight” are at the top, and that there isn’t a whole lot medicine can do about these cases.

    (except abort babies less likely to thrive)

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Call me skeptical on blaming health care for the higher infant mortality rate. Here is the CDC’s Pareto:

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5642a8.htm

    Notice that congenital malformation and “short gestation/low birthweight” are at the top, and that there isn’t a whole lot medicine can do about these cases.

    (except abort babies less likely to thrive)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    So, because some liberal people are freely organizing and choosing to coordinate their purchasing activities, Veith feels free to state that, “Under that mindset, dissent is not allowed.” Oh, please.

    Is every Republican boycott a quashing of dissent? I suppose the conservative attitude towards the media is similarly jack-booted?

    Why do conservatives hate it when the free market actually works, you know, freely? When consumers exercise their right to buy or not to? But nooOOOooo. You have people like Z (@4) calling this boycott “unAmerican”.

    And, even more ridiculously, Steve (@8) claims that these people are destroying “a person’s right to make a living”. Read that again: a “right to make a living”. Man, and conservatives get upset at liberals for thinking there’s a right to health care? Steve, you think Mr. Whole Foods has a right to make money off these people? That they don’t have a right to spend their money where they see fit?

    Also, Steve, do you know anything about Whole Foods? Because you say that you’ve “never shpped there before, but … will seek one out and do some shopping there.” Well, good for you, but you may want to severely lower your expectations (@12) that “I get the best product at the best price.” At Whole Foods, you get a lot of green-washing mumbo-jumbo and faux pastoral literature, and you’ll pay for it. Enjoy.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    So, because some liberal people are freely organizing and choosing to coordinate their purchasing activities, Veith feels free to state that, “Under that mindset, dissent is not allowed.” Oh, please.

    Is every Republican boycott a quashing of dissent? I suppose the conservative attitude towards the media is similarly jack-booted?

    Why do conservatives hate it when the free market actually works, you know, freely? When consumers exercise their right to buy or not to? But nooOOOooo. You have people like Z (@4) calling this boycott “unAmerican”.

    And, even more ridiculously, Steve (@8) claims that these people are destroying “a person’s right to make a living”. Read that again: a “right to make a living”. Man, and conservatives get upset at liberals for thinking there’s a right to health care? Steve, you think Mr. Whole Foods has a right to make money off these people? That they don’t have a right to spend their money where they see fit?

    Also, Steve, do you know anything about Whole Foods? Because you say that you’ve “never shpped there before, but … will seek one out and do some shopping there.” Well, good for you, but you may want to severely lower your expectations (@12) that “I get the best product at the best price.” At Whole Foods, you get a lot of green-washing mumbo-jumbo and faux pastoral literature, and you’ll pay for it. Enjoy.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    Right. it’s just that I would not want to see many many people lose their source of income because left leaning do-gooders unfairly boycotted the company.

    I’m sure I could get better deals elsewhere.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    Right. it’s just that I would not want to see many many people lose their source of income because left leaning do-gooders unfairly boycotted the company.

    I’m sure I could get better deals elsewhere.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    “(except abort babies less likely to thrive)”
    Bike Bubba..don’t tempt them…………..

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    “(except abort babies less likely to thrive)”
    Bike Bubba..don’t tempt them…………..

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@16), do you oppose all boycotts? Because, you know, every boycott hurts someone somewhere, if people abide by it. There are plenty of conservative boycotts you can also put your energy into lamenting. J (@11) found some. Maybe with a wee bit of searching, you could, too.

    Or is it just that you don’t want to see employees of a person (that you just discovered leans conservative) be subject to the movement of the free market when it involves the actions of liberals?

    Because if it’s the latter, you can save your crocodile tears about people losing their income. You’re just expressing your political bias, and that’s great. But let’s not pretend it’s about anyone else.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@16), do you oppose all boycotts? Because, you know, every boycott hurts someone somewhere, if people abide by it. There are plenty of conservative boycotts you can also put your energy into lamenting. J (@11) found some. Maybe with a wee bit of searching, you could, too.

    Or is it just that you don’t want to see employees of a person (that you just discovered leans conservative) be subject to the movement of the free market when it involves the actions of liberals?

    Because if it’s the latter, you can save your crocodile tears about people losing their income. You’re just expressing your political bias, and that’s great. But let’s not pretend it’s about anyone else.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Sorry, Todd, but I did not say boycott is UnAmerican..no way. Seomtimes, it’s the only way of showing our dislike for something. I said it feels unAmerican to have people suddenly not share your ideology (or find out they hadn’t but you didn’t know) and treat them badly for it.
    Odd that Nancy Pelosi and Hillary both thought dissent was very patriotic but now, with the Right speaking out, they’re disdainful. That’s not a very American way of thinking, either. DOn’t you think?

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Sorry, Todd, but I did not say boycott is UnAmerican..no way. Seomtimes, it’s the only way of showing our dislike for something. I said it feels unAmerican to have people suddenly not share your ideology (or find out they hadn’t but you didn’t know) and treat them badly for it.
    Odd that Nancy Pelosi and Hillary both thought dissent was very patriotic but now, with the Right speaking out, they’re disdainful. That’s not a very American way of thinking, either. DOn’t you think?

  • Bob

    “I get the best product at the best price”

    Steve, if those are your criteria for shopping somewhere, good luck with regard to Whole Foods. You’ll need a lot more than luck.

    In our area, Whole Foods isn’t called “Whole Paycheck” for nothing.

  • Bob

    “I get the best product at the best price”

    Steve, if those are your criteria for shopping somewhere, good luck with regard to Whole Foods. You’ll need a lot more than luck.

    In our area, Whole Foods isn’t called “Whole Paycheck” for nothing.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    I just don’t like to see people shut down for their political beliefs. I don’t believe it is right.

    If someone was engaged in outright evil and using their profits to make bombs to blow up innocent people, or something alomg those lines, I would not patronize those types of businesses.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    I just don’t like to see people shut down for their political beliefs. I don’t believe it is right.

    If someone was engaged in outright evil and using their profits to make bombs to blow up innocent people, or something alomg those lines, I would not patronize those types of businesses.

  • http://jen-lehmann.livejournal.com Jen

    Bike, I’d love to see a chart that has that breakdown compared to that breakdown in other countries.

    http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/09/05/19919.aspx

    Infant and neonatal mortality rates are more than twice as high with voluntary C-Sections than vaginal births.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/broward/story/1039515.html

    There are counties in this country where over half of births are by C-section.
    I didn’t mean to blame our health care for all of infant mortality, and I’m sorry if that was the implication. The disparity between the infant mortality rate in this country and that in other developed countries could be lessened by changes in our health care system, however.

  • http://jen-lehmann.livejournal.com Jen

    Bike, I’d love to see a chart that has that breakdown compared to that breakdown in other countries.

    http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/09/05/19919.aspx

    Infant and neonatal mortality rates are more than twice as high with voluntary C-Sections than vaginal births.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/broward/story/1039515.html

    There are counties in this country where over half of births are by C-section.
    I didn’t mean to blame our health care for all of infant mortality, and I’m sorry if that was the implication. The disparity between the infant mortality rate in this country and that in other developed countries could be lessened by changes in our health care system, however.

  • Bob

    So you don’t believe you or I have the right to boycott a business? Or do you object only if it’s due to a businessperson’s political beliefs?

  • Bob

    So you don’t believe you or I have the right to boycott a business? Or do you object only if it’s due to a businessperson’s political beliefs?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    You have the right to do it. I’m just saying that sometimes people take this boycott stuff much too far.

    I’m sure people could boycott you or I and even march in front of our homs with placards to denounce us for whatever.

    But this might not be a good thing for civil discourse in America, in many cases.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    You have the right to do it. I’m just saying that sometimes people take this boycott stuff much too far.

    I’m sure people could boycott you or I and even march in front of our homs with placards to denounce us for whatever.

    But this might not be a good thing for civil discourse in America, in many cases.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Z (@19), I’m not convinced you have this all worked out, yet. You say boycotts are not “unAmerican”, but that it is Un-American to “treat [people] badly” if they don’t share your ideology. Where, in this case, treating people badly is, you know … well, boycotting. So do you think it’s just Un-American to recognize that people don’t share your ideology? Or just to act on it? And if the latter, you also condemn each and every conservative boycott, too?

    “Odd that Nancy Pelosi and Hillary both thought dissent was very patriotic but now, with the Right speaking out, they’re disdainful.” Yeah, um, what are you referring to? I have no idea. Do you have actual quotes you’re thinking of?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Z (@19), I’m not convinced you have this all worked out, yet. You say boycotts are not “unAmerican”, but that it is Un-American to “treat [people] badly” if they don’t share your ideology. Where, in this case, treating people badly is, you know … well, boycotting. So do you think it’s just Un-American to recognize that people don’t share your ideology? Or just to act on it? And if the latter, you also condemn each and every conservative boycott, too?

    “Odd that Nancy Pelosi and Hillary both thought dissent was very patriotic but now, with the Right speaking out, they’re disdainful.” Yeah, um, what are you referring to? I have no idea. Do you have actual quotes you’re thinking of?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    If we have the fear of being shut down when we offer differing points of view, I would imagine that this could stifle debate and the free flow of ideas.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    If we have the fear of being shut down when we offer differing points of view, I would imagine that this could stifle debate and the free flow of ideas.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@21), “I just don’t like to see people shut down for their political beliefs.” Including when conservatives do it to liberals? Like, say, boycotting Hollywood? Or Disney? Or companies that support civil unions? Or gay rights? Just wondering.

    And Steve, I’m going to hold you to your pledge to not patronize companies engaged in outright evil, okay? If you mention in a subsequent comment that you bought some product, and I go to the manufacturer’s Web site and see that their mission statement includes “engaging in outright evil”, I am so calling you on it. You are forewarned.

    “Sometimes people take this boycott stuff much too far.” Like what? When they engage in boycotts … at all, perhaps?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@21), “I just don’t like to see people shut down for their political beliefs.” Including when conservatives do it to liberals? Like, say, boycotting Hollywood? Or Disney? Or companies that support civil unions? Or gay rights? Just wondering.

    And Steve, I’m going to hold you to your pledge to not patronize companies engaged in outright evil, okay? If you mention in a subsequent comment that you bought some product, and I go to the manufacturer’s Web site and see that their mission statement includes “engaging in outright evil”, I am so calling you on it. You are forewarned.

    “Sometimes people take this boycott stuff much too far.” Like what? When they engage in boycotts … at all, perhaps?

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Todd, if you haven’t heard the Pelosi/Hillary quotes you’re not paying attention to the healthcare debate, I could link the quotes and the videos, but haven’t the time..you haven’t heard “POWER TO THE PEOPLE” screeched from Hillary? But, now it’s impolite and they’re angry MOBS who question their politicians at TownHalls?

    you know, I do sound clumsy on the boycotting thing, you’re absolutely right. (If I were Obama, i’d have to say I was INARTFUL)..I’ll just say I think it’s not a very American concept to disdain others for their beliefs.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Todd, if you haven’t heard the Pelosi/Hillary quotes you’re not paying attention to the healthcare debate, I could link the quotes and the videos, but haven’t the time..you haven’t heard “POWER TO THE PEOPLE” screeched from Hillary? But, now it’s impolite and they’re angry MOBS who question their politicians at TownHalls?

    you know, I do sound clumsy on the boycotting thing, you’re absolutely right. (If I were Obama, i’d have to say I was INARTFUL)..I’ll just say I think it’s not a very American concept to disdain others for their beliefs.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@25), do you believe in the free market? Yes or no.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@25), do you believe in the free market? Yes or no.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    “Sometimes people take this boycott stuff much too far.” Like what? When they engage in boycotts … at all, perhaps?

    I didn’t say that. Do you not hear anything that I say?

    Boycotting people for their political beliefs is wrong.

    When the gay activists attempted to balckball writers and producers that disgreed with them, it was wrong.

    When they attempted to shut down restaurants because the owner donated to ‘save traditional marriage. That was wrong.

    If I were powerful enough I could shut you down, Todd. Boycott your employer until they were forced to fire you.

    Is that right? I say no it isn’t.

    When the right does it, I don’t like it either. Except in outward cases of real evil.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    “Sometimes people take this boycott stuff much too far.” Like what? When they engage in boycotts … at all, perhaps?

    I didn’t say that. Do you not hear anything that I say?

    Boycotting people for their political beliefs is wrong.

    When the gay activists attempted to balckball writers and producers that disgreed with them, it was wrong.

    When they attempted to shut down restaurants because the owner donated to ‘save traditional marriage. That was wrong.

    If I were powerful enough I could shut you down, Todd. Boycott your employer until they were forced to fire you.

    Is that right? I say no it isn’t.

    When the right does it, I don’t like it either. Except in outward cases of real evil.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Yes I believe in free markets.

    I also believe in free speech. The kind where I can express myself and not have to worry that I will be blackballed from making a living.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Yes I believe in free markets.

    I also believe in free speech. The kind where I can express myself and not have to worry that I will be blackballed from making a living.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Z (@27), “if you haven’t heard the Pelosi/Hillary quotes you’re not paying attention to the healthcare debate”? Well, I’m not paying attention to the rabid frothing of people waving around pictures of Obama with Hitler moustaches penciled on, if that’s what you mean. I still have no idea what Pelosi or Clinton quotes you’re referring to, but you “haven’t the time” to tell me about them … you’re too busy vaguely referring to them repeatedly, I guess.

    “I think it’s not a very American concept to disdain others for their beliefs.” Um, riiiiiiight. But I would like to welcome you to our country. And to this blog.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Z (@27), “if you haven’t heard the Pelosi/Hillary quotes you’re not paying attention to the healthcare debate”? Well, I’m not paying attention to the rabid frothing of people waving around pictures of Obama with Hitler moustaches penciled on, if that’s what you mean. I still have no idea what Pelosi or Clinton quotes you’re referring to, but you “haven’t the time” to tell me about them … you’re too busy vaguely referring to them repeatedly, I guess.

    “I think it’s not a very American concept to disdain others for their beliefs.” Um, riiiiiiight. But I would like to welcome you to our country. And to this blog.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Todd, thanks for the warm welcome.
    OH, and no, that’s not what Hillary or Pelosi mean when they’re deriding the Right for speaking up when they fel they mus…no, it’s about Americans challenging and wanting to know the truth. There was a swastika with a LINE through it, they weren’t advocating swastikas!
    Do you know there are STILL people who believe rationing is off the table because it doesn’t say they’ll have rationing? It’s kind of funny if this wasn’t going to effect all of us so badly. Medicare’s broken, let’s have a whole health care industry based on it!
    You can’t make this stuff up!
    Sorry, I have to go……And you seem like you’re someone who’d like to be well informed, how can you NOT have heard the hypocrisy in the Pelosi statements calling people “astroturf” and “angry mobs”???
    i’ll be back later.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Todd, thanks for the warm welcome.
    OH, and no, that’s not what Hillary or Pelosi mean when they’re deriding the Right for speaking up when they fel they mus…no, it’s about Americans challenging and wanting to know the truth. There was a swastika with a LINE through it, they weren’t advocating swastikas!
    Do you know there are STILL people who believe rationing is off the table because it doesn’t say they’ll have rationing? It’s kind of funny if this wasn’t going to effect all of us so badly. Medicare’s broken, let’s have a whole health care industry based on it!
    You can’t make this stuff up!
    Sorry, I have to go……And you seem like you’re someone who’d like to be well informed, how can you NOT have heard the hypocrisy in the Pelosi statements calling people “astroturf” and “angry mobs”???
    i’ll be back later.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@29), the only boycotts you’ve actually mentioned are ones in which liberals boycott companies. Let’s try this exercise. Read J’s comment (@11). Do you think those boycotts by the American Family Association are wrong? What do you think of the Southern Baptist Convention’s boycott against Disney due to its “gay-friendly” policies? What about the many calls to “boycott Hollywood” due to [something something] liberals? You think all of those are equally wrong?

    Maybe you could propose some legislation that would prevent people from spending their money where they want to based on their beliefs. That sounds like a conservative idea. Oh wait, I’m doing that thing where I say the opposite of what I’m thinking. You “believe in free markets”, but you don’t like it when people freely choose where to spend their money based on their beliefs? At this point, I have to ask if there’s another language besides English where “free market” is a meaningful phrase.

    But then, you also “believe in free speech”, but apparently define it as: speech for which there are no repercussions, in which a person can say what they like, but nobody should react to it, least of all in an economic fashion. Yeah, that’s not “free speech”. That’s you wanting to say and do what you want, based on your beliefs, but not wanting others to say and do what they want in reaction, based on their beliefs.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@29), the only boycotts you’ve actually mentioned are ones in which liberals boycott companies. Let’s try this exercise. Read J’s comment (@11). Do you think those boycotts by the American Family Association are wrong? What do you think of the Southern Baptist Convention’s boycott against Disney due to its “gay-friendly” policies? What about the many calls to “boycott Hollywood” due to [something something] liberals? You think all of those are equally wrong?

    Maybe you could propose some legislation that would prevent people from spending their money where they want to based on their beliefs. That sounds like a conservative idea. Oh wait, I’m doing that thing where I say the opposite of what I’m thinking. You “believe in free markets”, but you don’t like it when people freely choose where to spend their money based on their beliefs? At this point, I have to ask if there’s another language besides English where “free market” is a meaningful phrase.

    But then, you also “believe in free speech”, but apparently define it as: speech for which there are no repercussions, in which a person can say what they like, but nobody should react to it, least of all in an economic fashion. Yeah, that’s not “free speech”. That’s you wanting to say and do what you want, based on your beliefs, but not wanting others to say and do what they want in reaction, based on their beliefs.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    It’s wrong when the Right does it as well.

    Happy?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    It’s wrong when the Right does it as well.

    Happy?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Individual choices on who to patronize or not, fine.

    Organized attempts to shut people down and put them out of business for their political views is not.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Individual choices on who to patronize or not, fine.

    Organized attempts to shut people down and put them out of business for their political views is not.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    Where do you work, anyway? :D :D

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    Where do you work, anyway? :D :D

  • J

    It’s interesting to have the free market/boycott discussion ostensibly in the context of American health care, where there is a largely unfree market, in the sense of affordable choices, yet at the same time a much-too-free market, in the sense of no meaningful regulations to rein in the profit-driven insurers.

    What I mean is, unlike food stores, you usually have very few choices for your health care (unless you’re independently wealthy) and what you do choose may not be sufficient. See Jen @6 or david @3.

    I don’t read Mackey’s suggestions as changing that. In my view, nothing he proposes will definitely result in more affordable, comprehensive health care for all Americans.

  • J

    It’s interesting to have the free market/boycott discussion ostensibly in the context of American health care, where there is a largely unfree market, in the sense of affordable choices, yet at the same time a much-too-free market, in the sense of no meaningful regulations to rein in the profit-driven insurers.

    What I mean is, unlike food stores, you usually have very few choices for your health care (unless you’re independently wealthy) and what you do choose may not be sufficient. See Jen @6 or david @3.

    I don’t read Mackey’s suggestions as changing that. In my view, nothing he proposes will definitely result in more affordable, comprehensive health care for all Americans.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@34), I’m surprised that you actually believe that, but fair enough. Now I can just disagree with you in general, as opposed to merely disagreeing on your politically-informed stance.

    I do not think there is anything wrong with boycotts. That doesn’t mean I like all of them — I find most ineffectual, anyhow — but I certainly won’t complain about the concept.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@34), I’m surprised that you actually believe that, but fair enough. Now I can just disagree with you in general, as opposed to merely disagreeing on your politically-informed stance.

    I do not think there is anything wrong with boycotts. That doesn’t mean I like all of them — I find most ineffectual, anyhow — but I certainly won’t complain about the concept.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    Fair enough.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    Fair enough.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@35), are you aware that every person taking place in a boycott is making an “individual choice on who to patronize or not”? I’m not sure you really like the free market.

    As to where I work, it’s not that hard to work out. Feel free to boycott me if you want. I have to admit, I’ve never rented any of your apartments, so I am — and, I believe, everyone else I know is — effectively boycotting you. Sorry. Hope you keep your job.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@35), are you aware that every person taking place in a boycott is making an “individual choice on who to patronize or not”? I’m not sure you really like the free market.

    As to where I work, it’s not that hard to work out. Feel free to boycott me if you want. I have to admit, I’ve never rented any of your apartments, so I am — and, I believe, everyone else I know is — effectively boycotting you. Sorry. Hope you keep your job.

  • J

    As for boycotts, one of the most successful was the 1955-56 Montgomery bus boycott by many of the city’s African Americans, who were protesting segregated transportation. Unlike a burger joint boycott (I don’t like McDonalds so I go to Burger King), this one caused tremendous hardship on the boycotters, who for more than a year had to find alternate transportation, usually car pools. There was no alternate, integrated bus company.
    Now that was an honorable boycott. I’d like to believe it’s one we’d all support.

  • J

    As for boycotts, one of the most successful was the 1955-56 Montgomery bus boycott by many of the city’s African Americans, who were protesting segregated transportation. Unlike a burger joint boycott (I don’t like McDonalds so I go to Burger King), this one caused tremendous hardship on the boycotters, who for more than a year had to find alternate transportation, usually car pools. There was no alternate, integrated bus company.
    Now that was an honorable boycott. I’d like to believe it’s one we’d all support.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    It’s the grouping together to hurt someone because they disagree with you that I find offensive. It’s like a gang beating up an individual. Let’s let the gangs fight it out on election day and in the Congress.

    Apartments? I don’t own any apartments. I do rent one, and whenevr I find someone to rent a vacant one I get a finder’s fee.

    But don’t let the Congress or President find out. I’m not sure they would find that a reasonable way to make money. :D

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    It’s the grouping together to hurt someone because they disagree with you that I find offensive. It’s like a gang beating up an individual. Let’s let the gangs fight it out on election day and in the Congress.

    Apartments? I don’t own any apartments. I do rent one, and whenevr I find someone to rent a vacant one I get a finder’s fee.

    But don’t let the Congress or President find out. I’m not sure they would find that a reasonable way to make money. :D

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    J,

    Good one! That is a boycott of an evol practice (not a political idea) that I could get behind!

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    J,

    Good one! That is a boycott of an evol practice (not a political idea) that I could get behind!

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    And I’m not just saying that because those segregated cities in the South were governed by Democrats.

    If they had been Republicans I would have boycotted then as well.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    And I’m not just saying that because those segregated cities in the South were governed by Democrats.

    If they had been Republicans I would have boycotted then as well.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve, you support the Montgomery bus boycott (@43). Okay. Was that a “grouping together to hurt [a transit system] because they disagree[d] with [the boycotters]“? Sure seems like it.

    And to pretend that segregation was plainly an “evil practice” and not a “political idea” is to ignore the entire context at that time. Easy to say now, isn’t it?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve, you support the Montgomery bus boycott (@43). Okay. Was that a “grouping together to hurt [a transit system] because they disagree[d] with [the boycotters]“? Sure seems like it.

    And to pretend that segregation was plainly an “evil practice” and not a “political idea” is to ignore the entire context at that time. Easy to say now, isn’t it?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    It is not so hard for me as it might be for you to discern evil practices from political ideas.

    Here’s a audio clip of a guy who makes your point, and a guy who makes my point:

    http://dennisprager.townhall.com/MediaPlayer/AudioPlayer.aspx?ContentGuid=cfe2f0cb-ced4-4fe8-8e32-e14b9a6d3048

    (it’s worth a couple of minutes to listen)

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    It is not so hard for me as it might be for you to discern evil practices from political ideas.

    Here’s a audio clip of a guy who makes your point, and a guy who makes my point:

    http://dennisprager.townhall.com/MediaPlayer/AudioPlayer.aspx?ContentGuid=cfe2f0cb-ced4-4fe8-8e32-e14b9a6d3048

    (it’s worth a couple of minutes to listen)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@46), it’s not a question of “discerning evil practices from political ideas” because those are not mutually exclusive categories. You’re pretending that segregation wasn’t a political issue. It was. People were boycotting companies and what-have-you based on the political ideas held by those companies. That you, I, and the protesters (though obviously not everyone then or now) also find those political actions to be wrong doesn’t remove their political nature.

    Furthermore, you said (@34) that boycotts are “wrong when the Right does it as well,” in response to my question about conservatives boycotting companies regarding policies and homosexuality. Are you saying that there is no issue of right and wrong, good and evil, when it comes to homosexuality? What is your definition of “evil”, that we may know which boycotts are okay, according to you?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@46), it’s not a question of “discerning evil practices from political ideas” because those are not mutually exclusive categories. You’re pretending that segregation wasn’t a political issue. It was. People were boycotting companies and what-have-you based on the political ideas held by those companies. That you, I, and the protesters (though obviously not everyone then or now) also find those political actions to be wrong doesn’t remove their political nature.

    Furthermore, you said (@34) that boycotts are “wrong when the Right does it as well,” in response to my question about conservatives boycotting companies regarding policies and homosexuality. Are you saying that there is no issue of right and wrong, good and evil, when it comes to homosexuality? What is your definition of “evil”, that we may know which boycotts are okay, according to you?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Taking people’s rights away from them. Doing bodily harm to people. Unjustly taking people’s property away, etc.

    Lot’s more. Just examples.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Taking people’s rights away from them. Doing bodily harm to people. Unjustly taking people’s property away, etc.

    Lot’s more. Just examples.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    If you have gays working for you and you pay them $2 an hour less than straight people…that qualifies for a boycott.

    If you advovate that gays ought to have the right to get married…that does not qualify for a boycott.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    If you have gays working for you and you pay them $2 an hour less than straight people…that qualifies for a boycott.

    If you advovate that gays ought to have the right to get married…that does not qualify for a boycott.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@48), you said that “taking people’s rights away from them” is evil. But you also think (@8) that there’s a “right to make a living”. So it’s not clear what list of rights you believe in.

    As for your other comment (@49), let me get this straight. If you treat gays differently than straights, that’s evil, and merits a boycott. But if you treat gays differently than straights, that’s not evil, and does not merit a boycott. Okay.

    What about advocating that blacks ought to have the right to marry whomever they want? Would it be okay to boycott a university that did not hold that position?

    Do you see what I’m getting at here? You’re appealing to a personal, non-universal definition of “evil” to say why you think some boycotts are okay and some not. That’s great for you, but is less than useful as a test. Obviously, many people boycotting Disney thought they were “evil” for having “gay-friendly” policies. By that metric, you’d say they were right to boycott Disney. But you actually said they were wrong.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@48), you said that “taking people’s rights away from them” is evil. But you also think (@8) that there’s a “right to make a living”. So it’s not clear what list of rights you believe in.

    As for your other comment (@49), let me get this straight. If you treat gays differently than straights, that’s evil, and merits a boycott. But if you treat gays differently than straights, that’s not evil, and does not merit a boycott. Okay.

    What about advocating that blacks ought to have the right to marry whomever they want? Would it be okay to boycott a university that did not hold that position?

    Do you see what I’m getting at here? You’re appealing to a personal, non-universal definition of “evil” to say why you think some boycotts are okay and some not. That’s great for you, but is less than useful as a test. Obviously, many people boycotting Disney thought they were “evil” for having “gay-friendly” policies. By that metric, you’d say they were right to boycott Disney. But you actually said they were wrong.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    Just use commom sense.

    Blacks and gays are apples and orages. The color of one’s skin and someone’s sexual practices are completely different.

    Society needs to preserve marriage to promote marrigae between a man and a woman to survive.

    You and I will not see eye to eye.

    I hope and pray that someone doesn’t cost you a chance to make a living because of your views…but the chances of that happening to me are much greater because the Left is not concerned if they destroy people in their political pursuits to a much greater degree than the right ever will.

    I’ll let you have the last word since I have to run.

    Ciao.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    Just use commom sense.

    Blacks and gays are apples and orages. The color of one’s skin and someone’s sexual practices are completely different.

    Society needs to preserve marriage to promote marrigae between a man and a woman to survive.

    You and I will not see eye to eye.

    I hope and pray that someone doesn’t cost you a chance to make a living because of your views…but the chances of that happening to me are much greater because the Left is not concerned if they destroy people in their political pursuits to a much greater degree than the right ever will.

    I’ll let you have the last word since I have to run.

    Ciao.

  • plauer

    Gee, and I was looking forward to a discussion on combining major medical insurance with HSAs as a means to provide more people health care at lower premiums and yet maintain some individual responsibility. Instead,it’s about boycotts. Hmmm…

  • plauer

    Gee, and I was looking forward to a discussion on combining major medical insurance with HSAs as a means to provide more people health care at lower premiums and yet maintain some individual responsibility. Instead,it’s about boycotts. Hmmm…

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Too right, Plauer. And in reality, there’s nothing wrong with a boycott. It’s merely consumer choice and free markets. In the case described by our gracious host, however, it is breathtaking how quickly liberals turn on one of their own.

    Now along the lines of the original post, I just wish it were easier to boycott big insurance by going high deductible–and without a big financial penalty due to government’s mis-guided promotion of employer paid health plans.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Too right, Plauer. And in reality, there’s nothing wrong with a boycott. It’s merely consumer choice and free markets. In the case described by our gracious host, however, it is breathtaking how quickly liberals turn on one of their own.

    Now along the lines of the original post, I just wish it were easier to boycott big insurance by going high deductible–and without a big financial penalty due to government’s mis-guided promotion of employer paid health plans.

  • http://beholdingthebeauty.blogspot.com Steven Carr

    I’d say, “Right on Mackey.” And don’t let the liberal boycott scare you because I’m sure more conservatives just might go crunchy.

  • http://beholdingthebeauty.blogspot.com Steven Carr

    I’d say, “Right on Mackey.” And don’t let the liberal boycott scare you because I’m sure more conservatives just might go crunchy.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Boycott whoever the heck you WANT to boycott…they rarely work very well and at least you feel like you have a voice, right?
    What’s wrong is saying that person or company or store doesn’t have a right to say what they’re saying or do what they’re doing. They have a right, but you don’t have to LIKE IT.
    Or is that oversimplifying things? :-)

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Boycott whoever the heck you WANT to boycott…they rarely work very well and at least you feel like you have a voice, right?
    What’s wrong is saying that person or company or store doesn’t have a right to say what they’re saying or do what they’re doing. They have a right, but you don’t have to LIKE IT.
    Or is that oversimplifying things? :-)

  • Cincinnatus

    Dear Steve and tODD,

    When did this become a discussion about whether boycotting is cool or not? I doubt any of us care, and it only relates tangentially to the original post.

    Thanks,

    Rob

  • Cincinnatus

    Dear Steve and tODD,

    When did this become a discussion about whether boycotting is cool or not? I doubt any of us care, and it only relates tangentially to the original post.

    Thanks,

    Rob

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Rob,

    I have tried in vain to end the conversation several times, but sometimes people do not want to let go.

    It’s only a conversation, though. No big deal. No one else seems to care about discussing anything else.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Rob,

    I have tried in vain to end the conversation several times, but sometimes people do not want to let go.

    It’s only a conversation, though. No big deal. No one else seems to care about discussing anything else.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    How about talking about tort reform?
    The only thing NOT even mentioned in the Obama health care bill? Odd, isn’t it, when you want to bring costs down? Unless that’s not the main purpose of the Plan, huh?

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    How about talking about tort reform?
    The only thing NOT even mentioned in the Obama health care bill? Odd, isn’t it, when you want to bring costs down? Unless that’s not the main purpose of the Plan, huh?

  • DonS

    Mr. Mackey has the health insurance issue exactly right, as I have posted in the past on this topic. I am glad that he spoke out so articulately.

    As for boycotts, they are very American. They also don’t typically work. But that’s OK, everyone has the right to express oneself politically, and withholding one’s business is a form of poltical expression.

    My only concern regarding boycotts is when the force of government is used to enforce or enable the boycott in any way. An example of that occurred in Californ with the Proposition 8 campaign last year. Campaign finance laws required the Prop. 8 campaign to publish the names and addresses of its contributors, and a lot of contributors were harassed and picketed even at their places of residence for their political activity of merely making a contribution to the campaign. This struck me as more than a boycott. It was pure intimidation and harassment. At the very least, home addresses should be masked when the donor lists are published.

  • DonS

    Mr. Mackey has the health insurance issue exactly right, as I have posted in the past on this topic. I am glad that he spoke out so articulately.

    As for boycotts, they are very American. They also don’t typically work. But that’s OK, everyone has the right to express oneself politically, and withholding one’s business is a form of poltical expression.

    My only concern regarding boycotts is when the force of government is used to enforce or enable the boycott in any way. An example of that occurred in Californ with the Proposition 8 campaign last year. Campaign finance laws required the Prop. 8 campaign to publish the names and addresses of its contributors, and a lot of contributors were harassed and picketed even at their places of residence for their political activity of merely making a contribution to the campaign. This struck me as more than a boycott. It was pure intimidation and harassment. At the very least, home addresses should be masked when the donor lists are published.

  • Hippocrates

    I am a resident physician training in neurology. My professors try to teach us when ordering tests is appropriate and when unecessary. But in practice, we end up getting unecessary tests all the time, wasting disgusting amounts of money, because we’re afraid of getting sued. So that every malingerer that walks in the door complaining of arm weakness who demonstrably has NO weakness gets an MRI of the brain anyway. As new and more expensive tests are developed, we become obligated to do them to avoid getting sued, even when there’s no medical reason to do it. Tort reform would curb some of this waste and cut down on healthcare cost. But like the commenter above noted, cutting costs isn’t the intent of Obama’s proposal.

    I work in the VA system as well as at private and county hospitals. The VA is government-run healthcare. Trust me, the government is absolutely no good at healthcare. The VA system is the most inefficient, obstructive system I’ve ever seen. We’re encouraged to turn as many patients away as possible, and getting appropriate medications and tests is maddeningly difficult. But this is what is in store for all of us if this legislation is enacted. Hope I never get sick…

  • Hippocrates

    I am a resident physician training in neurology. My professors try to teach us when ordering tests is appropriate and when unecessary. But in practice, we end up getting unecessary tests all the time, wasting disgusting amounts of money, because we’re afraid of getting sued. So that every malingerer that walks in the door complaining of arm weakness who demonstrably has NO weakness gets an MRI of the brain anyway. As new and more expensive tests are developed, we become obligated to do them to avoid getting sued, even when there’s no medical reason to do it. Tort reform would curb some of this waste and cut down on healthcare cost. But like the commenter above noted, cutting costs isn’t the intent of Obama’s proposal.

    I work in the VA system as well as at private and county hospitals. The VA is government-run healthcare. Trust me, the government is absolutely no good at healthcare. The VA system is the most inefficient, obstructive system I’ve ever seen. We’re encouraged to turn as many patients away as possible, and getting appropriate medications and tests is maddeningly difficult. But this is what is in store for all of us if this legislation is enacted. Hope I never get sick…

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Hippocrates, I wish that more Americans could hear your experience and expertise. Thanks for this.
    Sadly, anyone who understands and appreciates what you’re saying is now considered an ‘angry mob’….Because it’s going against THE PLAN!

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Hippocrates, I wish that more Americans could hear your experience and expertise. Thanks for this.
    Sadly, anyone who understands and appreciates what you’re saying is now considered an ‘angry mob’….Because it’s going against THE PLAN!

  • Pingback: Does a baby need Health insurance right when the baby is born? ? | Best Family Resources

  • Pingback: Does a baby need Health insurance right when the baby is born? ? | Best Family Resources

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cincinnatus (@57), if you (or, say, plauer @53) want to talk about some other aspect of Veith’s post besides what Steve and I have talked about, then by all means, do so. But I addressed my original comments to a part of Veith’s post — the only part I had a significant opinion on — and the conversation has gone from there, as it will. If more people cared about the main thrust of the post or had something to say, they presumably would have, but as it is, it was mostly Steve and I talking about what interested us about the post.

    Or so I thought. Now I find that Steve (@58), somewhere, “tried in vain to end the conversation several times.” Care to point out where, Steve? Did I just keep forcing you to reply? “Sometimes people do not want to let go.” Um, Steve, you are aware it takes two to have a conversation, aren’t you? You could have stopped replying any time you wanted. As it was, until now, I was the one who actually stopped, in spite of your bit (@52) about letting me “have the last word”. The only reason I’m replying now is because of the petulant way in which you’re now trying to disavow your role in our interchange.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cincinnatus (@57), if you (or, say, plauer @53) want to talk about some other aspect of Veith’s post besides what Steve and I have talked about, then by all means, do so. But I addressed my original comments to a part of Veith’s post — the only part I had a significant opinion on — and the conversation has gone from there, as it will. If more people cared about the main thrust of the post or had something to say, they presumably would have, but as it is, it was mostly Steve and I talking about what interested us about the post.

    Or so I thought. Now I find that Steve (@58), somewhere, “tried in vain to end the conversation several times.” Care to point out where, Steve? Did I just keep forcing you to reply? “Sometimes people do not want to let go.” Um, Steve, you are aware it takes two to have a conversation, aren’t you? You could have stopped replying any time you wanted. As it was, until now, I was the one who actually stopped, in spite of your bit (@52) about letting me “have the last word”. The only reason I’m replying now is because of the petulant way in which you’re now trying to disavow your role in our interchange.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    When I pointed out about boycotting evil acts vs. political thought.

    But you just keep pressing on. You don’t seem to have any common sense to be able to figure how how those could possibly differ.

    So, I am hereby trying, yet once again.

    Sometimes the ‘clay is baked’, however.

    Sometimes people do NOT WANT to get it.

    I too, am guilty of that with some things as well.

    It’s just the way that it is.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/ Steve Martin

    Todd,

    When I pointed out about boycotting evil acts vs. political thought.

    But you just keep pressing on. You don’t seem to have any common sense to be able to figure how how those could possibly differ.

    So, I am hereby trying, yet once again.

    Sometimes the ‘clay is baked’, however.

    Sometimes people do NOT WANT to get it.

    I too, am guilty of that with some things as well.

    It’s just the way that it is.

  • Jonathan

    One of my complaints about this boycott is that Mackey didn’t say something like “I oppose Obama’s health care plan because I want poor people to suffer.” That would deserve a boycott. Instead he argued that his ideas would be better suited to expanding coverage and lowering costs than the current Democratic proposals. So he and Obama have the same goal for health reform, but different means of achieving it. These liberals demand a boycott if you don’t sign on to the specific policy they advocate. That’s too much.

  • Jonathan

    One of my complaints about this boycott is that Mackey didn’t say something like “I oppose Obama’s health care plan because I want poor people to suffer.” That would deserve a boycott. Instead he argued that his ideas would be better suited to expanding coverage and lowering costs than the current Democratic proposals. So he and Obama have the same goal for health reform, but different means of achieving it. These liberals demand a boycott if you don’t sign on to the specific policy they advocate. That’s too much.


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