Sweden seizes home-schooled child

The Christian Telegraph reports that Swedish government seizes child from home schooling family:

A Christian home schooling family could permanently lose custody of their only child simply because they home-school, reports LifeSiteNews.com. . . .

Swedish authorities forcibly removed Dominic Johansson from his parents, Christer and Annie Johansson, in June of last year from a plane they had boarded to move to Annie’s home country of India. The officials did not have a warrant nor have they charged the Johanssons with any crime. The officials seized the child because they believe home schooling is an inappropriate way to raise a child and insist the government should raise Dominic instead.

“It’s one of the most disgraceful abuses of power we have ever witnessed,” said HSLDA [Homeschool Legal Defense Association] attorney Mike Donnelly. “The Swedish government says it is exercising its authority under the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child in their unnecessary break up of this family. In addition, the Swedish Parliament is considering an essential ban on home schooling. We have heard that other home-schooling families in Sweden are having more difficulty with local officials. We fear that all home-schooling families in that country are at risk.”

Swedish social services initially limited visitation to the child to two hours per week but now have curtailed that to one hour every fifth week and no visit at all for Christmas because the social workers will be on vacation.

On Dec. 17, a Swedish court ruled in Johansson v. Gotland Social Services that the government was within its rights to seize the child. They cited the fact that Dominic had not been vaccinated as a reason to remove him permanently from his parents and also claimed that home-schoolers do not perform well academically and are not well socialized.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • colliebear56

    . . .a Swedish court . . . cited the fact that Dominic had not been vaccinated as a reason to remove him permanently from his parents and also claimed that home-schoolers do not perform well academically and are not well socialized.

    This judgement from the court seems arbitrary and laughable: it could easily apply to many children in the government run school system of Detroit.

  • colliebear56

    . . .a Swedish court . . . cited the fact that Dominic had not been vaccinated as a reason to remove him permanently from his parents and also claimed that home-schoolers do not perform well academically and are not well socialized.

    This judgement from the court seems arbitrary and laughable: it could easily apply to many children in the government run school system of Detroit.

  • Carl Vehse

    With its court-approved policy of state-sponsored kidnapping and terrorism, Sweden has apparently decided to abandon its legitimacy as a form of govrnment and instead has indicated a desire to become a part of the ‘Axis of Evil.’

  • Carl Vehse

    With its court-approved policy of state-sponsored kidnapping and terrorism, Sweden has apparently decided to abandon its legitimacy as a form of govrnment and instead has indicated a desire to become a part of the ‘Axis of Evil.’

  • Joe

    This is why I fear powerful gov’ts. The part that is really disgusting is that they were trying to leave the country to go to where they could homeschool in peace.

  • Joe

    This is why I fear powerful gov’ts. The part that is really disgusting is that they were trying to leave the country to go to where they could homeschool in peace.

  • http://wipfandstock.com/store/As_Though_It_Were_Actually_True_A_Christian_Apologetics_Primer Matt C.

    Children’s rights are an ingenious way of expanding government. There’s no imaginable world in which children are allowed to exercise their own rights; somebody else will always be the decision maker. This is just another case of children’s rights being a guise for government rights at the expense of parents.

    And there’s the old “well-socialized” canard too. I don’t know about Sweden, but I’ve never been impressed with the socialization of students at the U.S. public schools I’ve attended.

  • http://wipfandstock.com/store/As_Though_It_Were_Actually_True_A_Christian_Apologetics_Primer Matt C.

    Children’s rights are an ingenious way of expanding government. There’s no imaginable world in which children are allowed to exercise their own rights; somebody else will always be the decision maker. This is just another case of children’s rights being a guise for government rights at the expense of parents.

    And there’s the old “well-socialized” canard too. I don’t know about Sweden, but I’ve never been impressed with the socialization of students at the U.S. public schools I’ve attended.

  • Dan Kempin

    “visitation . . . one hour every fifth week.”

    One hour every fifth week? Doesn’t such a cruel policy destroy any pretense of ‘for the child’s own good?’ This is a punitive example for any other families who are arrogant enough to think they can raise their own children.

  • Dan Kempin

    “visitation . . . one hour every fifth week.”

    One hour every fifth week? Doesn’t such a cruel policy destroy any pretense of ‘for the child’s own good?’ This is a punitive example for any other families who are arrogant enough to think they can raise their own children.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Matt C.
    I doubt the socialization in Sweden is much better than what it does for our students in the states. It is quite funny that our public schools use this as the last ditch argument for existence. They no longer teach, but by attending public school you can learn the ins and outs of the drug trade, and pick up herpes while you learn to socialize. Not sure that is much different in Sweden.

    It has been a few years since I have been to Sweden, but I haven’t met too many citizens there happy about where there government is going. But it is nice to know that in the wake of sharia law going into effect in Malmo, and the cops and ambulances being afraid to even drive through some of the neighborhoods there, that they still have enough clout to bully a peace loving family that would just like to teach their child something.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Matt C.
    I doubt the socialization in Sweden is much better than what it does for our students in the states. It is quite funny that our public schools use this as the last ditch argument for existence. They no longer teach, but by attending public school you can learn the ins and outs of the drug trade, and pick up herpes while you learn to socialize. Not sure that is much different in Sweden.

    It has been a few years since I have been to Sweden, but I haven’t met too many citizens there happy about where there government is going. But it is nice to know that in the wake of sharia law going into effect in Malmo, and the cops and ambulances being afraid to even drive through some of the neighborhoods there, that they still have enough clout to bully a peace loving family that would just like to teach their child something.

  • Dan Kempin

    This incident (trend?) poses a challenge for a Christian understanding of the fourth commandment. The authority of civil government must be recognized and honored, of course, but so must the authority and integrity of the family. When is it right for the civil authorities to insert themselves in family affairs, and when is it wrong? Where do we draw the line, and how do we come to those judgments? Do children “belong” to the state, with family time a “privilege” that can be revoked? (As, apparently, in Sweden.) Does the state have the right to disrupt a family, even in the case of abusive behavior? (And if so, how do you define “abusive?”) This might be a good time to clarify our thoughts.

  • Dan Kempin

    This incident (trend?) poses a challenge for a Christian understanding of the fourth commandment. The authority of civil government must be recognized and honored, of course, but so must the authority and integrity of the family. When is it right for the civil authorities to insert themselves in family affairs, and when is it wrong? Where do we draw the line, and how do we come to those judgments? Do children “belong” to the state, with family time a “privilege” that can be revoked? (As, apparently, in Sweden.) Does the state have the right to disrupt a family, even in the case of abusive behavior? (And if so, how do you define “abusive?”) This might be a good time to clarify our thoughts.

  • JDart

    My homeschooled children are healthy, well-adjusted, socially fit, and conversational-bordering-on-fluent in both English and German–at ages 5 and 3. Let’s see a public school even come close to that. And to top it off, they’re not subject to indoctrination in the normalization/promotion of homosexuality, liberal correctness, or any number of agenda items that the public system has substituted for real education.

    My wife, my kids, my home, and my guns are all on the hands-off list.

  • JDart

    My homeschooled children are healthy, well-adjusted, socially fit, and conversational-bordering-on-fluent in both English and German–at ages 5 and 3. Let’s see a public school even come close to that. And to top it off, they’re not subject to indoctrination in the normalization/promotion of homosexuality, liberal correctness, or any number of agenda items that the public system has substituted for real education.

    My wife, my kids, my home, and my guns are all on the hands-off list.

  • Dan Kempin

    Along these same lines, (#7), I came across a story from Minnesota a few weeks ago. A young man stole from his grandfather, and rather than bring it to the civil authorities, his uncles abducted him and beat him. They are now being charged as felons. Without defending their behavior, (both comical and sick), should some credit be given to the idea of a family “looking after their own” rather than involving the government? Did they have a right to act? (In theory, not in defense of what they actually did.) Why or why not?

    My own feeling is that the state has advanced into territory that belongs to the family, though I am not sure I can give a precise definition of where the line ought to be.

    http://www.startribune.com/local/north/79699227.html

  • Dan Kempin

    Along these same lines, (#7), I came across a story from Minnesota a few weeks ago. A young man stole from his grandfather, and rather than bring it to the civil authorities, his uncles abducted him and beat him. They are now being charged as felons. Without defending their behavior, (both comical and sick), should some credit be given to the idea of a family “looking after their own” rather than involving the government? Did they have a right to act? (In theory, not in defense of what they actually did.) Why or why not?

    My own feeling is that the state has advanced into territory that belongs to the family, though I am not sure I can give a precise definition of where the line ought to be.

    http://www.startribune.com/local/north/79699227.html

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Dan,
    I tend to think that the government here has overstepped its bounds in breaking up this family. It has become a tyranny. But that is what happens when you let a bunch of commies take over your government. People think that Sweden is this great peace loving country, full of mild mannered people. In truth it is run by a bunch of power hungy and corrupt liberals who have no tolerance for anything they don’t personally endorse. It is almost a miracle that heterosexual relationships haven’t been outlawed there.
    They were much better off when they had a king with power.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Dan,
    I tend to think that the government here has overstepped its bounds in breaking up this family. It has become a tyranny. But that is what happens when you let a bunch of commies take over your government. People think that Sweden is this great peace loving country, full of mild mannered people. In truth it is run by a bunch of power hungy and corrupt liberals who have no tolerance for anything they don’t personally endorse. It is almost a miracle that heterosexual relationships haven’t been outlawed there.
    They were much better off when they had a king with power.

  • Bruce Gee

    When we started homeschooling over twenty years ago, the most outspoken among our friends against it was a German couple we’d gotten to know. It almost ruined the friendship, but it gave us an insight into what may be seen as the European view of how to raise children. It is very much disapproved of, especially among the educated.
    Our oldest recently had a chance to visit these old Germans friends, in Hong Kong. It was a great opportunity for them to view the results of our catastrophic educational choices of so many years ago. So far, no word from them on our choice, but they clearly approve of the product. Sweet, silent revenge!

  • Bruce Gee

    When we started homeschooling over twenty years ago, the most outspoken among our friends against it was a German couple we’d gotten to know. It almost ruined the friendship, but it gave us an insight into what may be seen as the European view of how to raise children. It is very much disapproved of, especially among the educated.
    Our oldest recently had a chance to visit these old Germans friends, in Hong Kong. It was a great opportunity for them to view the results of our catastrophic educational choices of so many years ago. So far, no word from them on our choice, but they clearly approve of the product. Sweet, silent revenge!

  • Kirk

    @10 I was under the impression that it was a country of tall, blond people with excellent bone structure.

  • Kirk

    @10 I was under the impression that it was a country of tall, blond people with excellent bone structure.

  • Dan Kempin

    Bror, #10,

    Fair enough. This instance is certainly tyrannical and clearly over the line. What I would like to explore, though, is where the line ought to be drawn.

  • Dan Kempin

    Bror, #10,

    Fair enough. This instance is certainly tyrannical and clearly over the line. What I would like to explore, though, is where the line ought to be drawn.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    I tried finding another article about this, but everything I could find seemed to come from the same source. Right now, only a very few conservative sites are reporting this story, the most reputable (and I use that term very lightly in this case) of which is WND.

    In short: I’d really like to see some more confirmation of these details (horrific as they are) before I react against them.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    I tried finding another article about this, but everything I could find seemed to come from the same source. Right now, only a very few conservative sites are reporting this story, the most reputable (and I use that term very lightly in this case) of which is WND.

    In short: I’d really like to see some more confirmation of these details (horrific as they are) before I react against them.

  • DonS

    tODD, this is an utterly reputable source: http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Sweden/200912220.asp

  • DonS

    tODD, this is an utterly reputable source: http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Sweden/200912220.asp

  • DonS

    There are many in this country who idealize western European government and wish it to be replicated in the U.S. Note how the Swedish government is relying on a U.N. treaty, the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child, to justify its break-up of this family over their child raising convictions. We must repudiate any adoption of or reliance on that treaty in this country. The Parental Rights Organization (www.parentalrights.org) provides education regarding our current constitutional rights to direct the upbringing of our children and is promoting a constitutional amendment to specifically enshrine these rights in the constitution. Dan, I think a perusal of this site would help to clarify for you where the government does not belong in the context of the family.

  • DonS

    There are many in this country who idealize western European government and wish it to be replicated in the U.S. Note how the Swedish government is relying on a U.N. treaty, the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child, to justify its break-up of this family over their child raising convictions. We must repudiate any adoption of or reliance on that treaty in this country. The Parental Rights Organization (www.parentalrights.org) provides education regarding our current constitutional rights to direct the upbringing of our children and is promoting a constitutional amendment to specifically enshrine these rights in the constitution. Dan, I think a perusal of this site would help to clarify for you where the government does not belong in the context of the family.

  • Joe

    Good point tODD. The comments from the Home School Legal Defense Association do add additional credibility in my mind. I don’t always agree with that association’s methods (in fact I think they take an approach to legislation and litigation that would undermine the level of home-schooling freedoms we have in Wisconsin) they are a credible organization.

    As an aside, this seems to be in line with what has been happening in Germany, where families have been prosecuted for violating a criminal law that requires all students to go to state run schools. So far in the only case that has gone to sentencing (that I am aware of) the judge took pity on the family and declined the state’s request for jail time and imposed a fine.

    Dan – your question is a very good one. To me the answer is that the line should be drawn at the point that gives the state the least amount of authority necessary to make sure I don’t kill or seriously injure my children.

  • Joe

    Good point tODD. The comments from the Home School Legal Defense Association do add additional credibility in my mind. I don’t always agree with that association’s methods (in fact I think they take an approach to legislation and litigation that would undermine the level of home-schooling freedoms we have in Wisconsin) they are a credible organization.

    As an aside, this seems to be in line with what has been happening in Germany, where families have been prosecuted for violating a criminal law that requires all students to go to state run schools. So far in the only case that has gone to sentencing (that I am aware of) the judge took pity on the family and declined the state’s request for jail time and imposed a fine.

    Dan – your question is a very good one. To me the answer is that the line should be drawn at the point that gives the state the least amount of authority necessary to make sure I don’t kill or seriously injure my children.

  • Joe

    Not to side track this thread, but DonS’s post about a consitutional amendment is exactly the type of activity that I think is counter-productive to actually securing our rights related to the rearing of our children. If anyone is interested here is an article from the Wisconsin Parents Association (the leading Wisconsin Home-School group) on the topic:

    http://issues.homeschooling-wpa.org/2009/06/yes-to-parental-rights-no-to-a-constitutional-amendment-1.html

  • Joe

    Not to side track this thread, but DonS’s post about a consitutional amendment is exactly the type of activity that I think is counter-productive to actually securing our rights related to the rearing of our children. If anyone is interested here is an article from the Wisconsin Parents Association (the leading Wisconsin Home-School group) on the topic:

    http://issues.homeschooling-wpa.org/2009/06/yes-to-parental-rights-no-to-a-constitutional-amendment-1.html

  • Dan Kempin

    Joe, #17,

    “the point that gives the state . . . authority . . . to make sure I don’t kill or seriously injure my children.”

    Ironic, really, that the argument for the killing of prenatal children is not that abortion is good, but that it is the decision of the parent (mother) and none of the state’s expletive business.

    Just for the sake of argument, on what basis would you turn over a parent’s authority to the government in order to prevent the “serious injury” of a child?

  • Dan Kempin

    Joe, #17,

    “the point that gives the state . . . authority . . . to make sure I don’t kill or seriously injure my children.”

    Ironic, really, that the argument for the killing of prenatal children is not that abortion is good, but that it is the decision of the parent (mother) and none of the state’s expletive business.

    Just for the sake of argument, on what basis would you turn over a parent’s authority to the government in order to prevent the “serious injury” of a child?

  • DonS

    Joe @ 18:

    I agree that there are possible negative consequences to pursuing a Parental Rights Amendment. I live in California, and we always discourage any attempt to legislate rights for home schoolers here, because when you live under a government generally hostile to your point of view, it is often better to simply stay under the radar.

    However, the article you linked to has a completely wrong idea about what a constitutional right is. The Bill of Rights and subsequent constitutional amendments are not grants of rights from the government to we the citizens, as the article portrays. Rather, they are LIMITATIONS on government, imposed by the people. The linked article suggests that the 9th Amendment already provides the parental rights we require. Well, OK, I agree. However, when is the last time the federal courts struck down a government action on the basis of the 9th Amendment? Do they even know it exists? You know, as a lawyer, that the 9th Amendment is not even on the Court’s radar screen. HSLDA has been litigating on behalf of parents and their right to direct the education of their children for 25 years. They know, better than anyone else, what our current legal protections are, as viewed by the Court, and how they are limited. They also know that UN treaties and international law are being given increasing deference by our Supreme Court, and that, constititutionally, international treaties trump all but explicit constitutional protections. I have a great deal of trust in their judgement in this, their area of specific expertise.

    Do I have any illusions about the short term prospects for the passage of a PRA? No. There is no chance, in my view, at least in human terms. But, as I mentioned in my earlier post, The PRO is providing a great service merely in educating the public about the imminent threats on the horizon, and about what we should consider to be our parental rights. I don’t see how these efforts of illumination can be in any way counterproductive. Forewarned is forearmed.

  • DonS

    Joe @ 18:

    I agree that there are possible negative consequences to pursuing a Parental Rights Amendment. I live in California, and we always discourage any attempt to legislate rights for home schoolers here, because when you live under a government generally hostile to your point of view, it is often better to simply stay under the radar.

    However, the article you linked to has a completely wrong idea about what a constitutional right is. The Bill of Rights and subsequent constitutional amendments are not grants of rights from the government to we the citizens, as the article portrays. Rather, they are LIMITATIONS on government, imposed by the people. The linked article suggests that the 9th Amendment already provides the parental rights we require. Well, OK, I agree. However, when is the last time the federal courts struck down a government action on the basis of the 9th Amendment? Do they even know it exists? You know, as a lawyer, that the 9th Amendment is not even on the Court’s radar screen. HSLDA has been litigating on behalf of parents and their right to direct the education of their children for 25 years. They know, better than anyone else, what our current legal protections are, as viewed by the Court, and how they are limited. They also know that UN treaties and international law are being given increasing deference by our Supreme Court, and that, constititutionally, international treaties trump all but explicit constitutional protections. I have a great deal of trust in their judgement in this, their area of specific expertise.

    Do I have any illusions about the short term prospects for the passage of a PRA? No. There is no chance, in my view, at least in human terms. But, as I mentioned in my earlier post, The PRO is providing a great service merely in educating the public about the imminent threats on the horizon, and about what we should consider to be our parental rights. I don’t see how these efforts of illumination can be in any way counterproductive. Forewarned is forearmed.

  • http://dominicjohansson.blogspot.com Pennan

    There is a video about this case over youtube:

    The social service thinks Dominic needs help because he show too much love?

  • http://dominicjohansson.blogspot.com Pennan

    There is a video about this case over youtube:

    The social service thinks Dominic needs help because he show too much love?

  • DonS

    It’s kind of sad, really, that tODD had such trouble finding anything about such a horrific story in regular media. Somewhat of an indictment of the MSM, it seems to me.

  • DonS

    It’s kind of sad, really, that tODD had such trouble finding anything about such a horrific story in regular media. Somewhat of an indictment of the MSM, it seems to me.

  • Joe

    DonS – “The linked article suggests that the 9th Amendment already provides the parental rights we require. Well, OK, I agree. However, when is the last time the federal courts struck down a government action on the basis of the 9th Amendment?”

    When’s the last time anyone asked them to? But anyway they have been using the 14th amendment instead and under that analysis the US Supreme Court has already stated that the right of parents to direct their children’s education is a fundamental right (Wis. v. Yoder). Here is a list of cases recognizing the rights of parents. http://www.liftingtheveil.org/supreme-court.htm

    As it stands now directing the education of our kids is a fundamental right afforded protection by the federal courts. The wording of the proposed constitutional amendment expressly states that the state can interfere with that right if it can demonstrate a good enough justification. This is no more protection that what the current case law provides by calling the right to direct the education of our kids a fundamental right. So it adds nothing new except the provision related to treaties (which I find less offensive but am not sure that it would actually prevent signing a treaty – after all the amendment now implicitly recognizes the gov’t role in framing the bounds of the right – all a court would have to do is say that a treaties terms don’t infringe on the core of the rights so its okay).

    But what it does is provide two opportunities for negative results. What if it gets through both houses and is then rejected by the states. Is that evidence for a future court that the fundamental right already recognized is may be not so fundamental after all? And it implicitly acknowledges that the gov’t has a role in defining the scope of the right.

    In general, I respcet the HSLDA’s motives but I think they are part of the problem facing the freedoms I already enjoy in Wisconsin. They have supported legislation in states that would require testing (not requried in Wis.), legislation that would allow the state to review curriculum (not allowed in Wis.) and other interventions by the state. They take a position that they are fine with laws that require the home-schooling family to prove that they are doing just as well as the institutionalized kids – I can’t support that view. My right to direct the education of my kids is not dependant upon the effectiveness of my efforts and I can’t support an organization that has in the past or will in the future support that view.

    The organization I respect and support is the Wisconsin Parents Association. Its fundamental approach is to ensure that the state has absolutely no say in my home-schooling choices. We don’t want favors, tax credits or the ability to join your sports teams because that might give you a foot in the door. All we ask is to be left alone. And this has worked. 25 years ago home schooling in Wisconsin was illegal. Today through the efforts of the WPA all I have to do to home-school is fill out a form that says, I have a child of school age (I don’t even have to tell them the age or name of the child) and that I agree to provide X number of hours of instruction this year.

    Apologies to all who are not interested in DonS’s and my discussion.

  • Joe

    DonS – “The linked article suggests that the 9th Amendment already provides the parental rights we require. Well, OK, I agree. However, when is the last time the federal courts struck down a government action on the basis of the 9th Amendment?”

    When’s the last time anyone asked them to? But anyway they have been using the 14th amendment instead and under that analysis the US Supreme Court has already stated that the right of parents to direct their children’s education is a fundamental right (Wis. v. Yoder). Here is a list of cases recognizing the rights of parents. http://www.liftingtheveil.org/supreme-court.htm

    As it stands now directing the education of our kids is a fundamental right afforded protection by the federal courts. The wording of the proposed constitutional amendment expressly states that the state can interfere with that right if it can demonstrate a good enough justification. This is no more protection that what the current case law provides by calling the right to direct the education of our kids a fundamental right. So it adds nothing new except the provision related to treaties (which I find less offensive but am not sure that it would actually prevent signing a treaty – after all the amendment now implicitly recognizes the gov’t role in framing the bounds of the right – all a court would have to do is say that a treaties terms don’t infringe on the core of the rights so its okay).

    But what it does is provide two opportunities for negative results. What if it gets through both houses and is then rejected by the states. Is that evidence for a future court that the fundamental right already recognized is may be not so fundamental after all? And it implicitly acknowledges that the gov’t has a role in defining the scope of the right.

    In general, I respcet the HSLDA’s motives but I think they are part of the problem facing the freedoms I already enjoy in Wisconsin. They have supported legislation in states that would require testing (not requried in Wis.), legislation that would allow the state to review curriculum (not allowed in Wis.) and other interventions by the state. They take a position that they are fine with laws that require the home-schooling family to prove that they are doing just as well as the institutionalized kids – I can’t support that view. My right to direct the education of my kids is not dependant upon the effectiveness of my efforts and I can’t support an organization that has in the past or will in the future support that view.

    The organization I respect and support is the Wisconsin Parents Association. Its fundamental approach is to ensure that the state has absolutely no say in my home-schooling choices. We don’t want favors, tax credits or the ability to join your sports teams because that might give you a foot in the door. All we ask is to be left alone. And this has worked. 25 years ago home schooling in Wisconsin was illegal. Today through the efforts of the WPA all I have to do to home-school is fill out a form that says, I have a child of school age (I don’t even have to tell them the age or name of the child) and that I agree to provide X number of hours of instruction this year.

    Apologies to all who are not interested in DonS’s and my discussion.

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com/ John

    In his 1994 presidential address to the SBL, Norman Gottwald said something to the effect that when a class of people develops that has the power to separate the producers from the production, they nearly always retain power over the controlling ideology. In an increasingly unjust Europe, the controlling class cannot bear the results of people educated outside their controlling ideology. The system would fail.

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com/ John

    In his 1994 presidential address to the SBL, Norman Gottwald said something to the effect that when a class of people develops that has the power to separate the producers from the production, they nearly always retain power over the controlling ideology. In an increasingly unjust Europe, the controlling class cannot bear the results of people educated outside their controlling ideology. The system would fail.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Don (@15), I understand why you might find the HSLDA’s Web site to be “utterly reputable”, but presumably you could understand why a person not involved in home-schooling might find it to have an obvious bias in such reporting.

    And I can find articles about this story in the “regular media”, but they’re all in Swedish, and Google Translate isn’t giving me results I feel I can trust — it reads too weird. I’m not surprised that you feel this is another occasion to berate the media, but please — do you really expect every story in every country to find its way to our media pages? Or are you just piling on the media here because you can?

    Anyhow, from what I’ve been able to piece together, it still feels like we’re not getting the full story here. The HSLDA article glosses over any mental health problems of the father, but I found (translated) pages written by him that seemed to talk about the depression he was experiencing and how he was treating that. I have yet to read an article that gave much of the government’s side on this story.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Don (@15), I understand why you might find the HSLDA’s Web site to be “utterly reputable”, but presumably you could understand why a person not involved in home-schooling might find it to have an obvious bias in such reporting.

    And I can find articles about this story in the “regular media”, but they’re all in Swedish, and Google Translate isn’t giving me results I feel I can trust — it reads too weird. I’m not surprised that you feel this is another occasion to berate the media, but please — do you really expect every story in every country to find its way to our media pages? Or are you just piling on the media here because you can?

    Anyhow, from what I’ve been able to piece together, it still feels like we’re not getting the full story here. The HSLDA article glosses over any mental health problems of the father, but I found (translated) pages written by him that seemed to talk about the depression he was experiencing and how he was treating that. I have yet to read an article that gave much of the government’s side on this story.

  • Peter Leavitt

    Sweden is a good example of the Lutheran Reformation gone awry. It has become, except for a few remaining orthodox Christians, essentially a pagan state that interferes with family life and has little sense of balance between legitimate left and right-hand kingdoms. The Scandinavians are in the process of reverting to their primitive pagan roots.

  • Peter Leavitt

    Sweden is a good example of the Lutheran Reformation gone awry. It has become, except for a few remaining orthodox Christians, essentially a pagan state that interferes with family life and has little sense of balance between legitimate left and right-hand kingdoms. The Scandinavians are in the process of reverting to their primitive pagan roots.

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  • http://www.geneveith.com geneveith

    And the Netherlands is a good example of Calvinism gone awry. And France is a good example of Catholicism gone awry. And Russia is a good example of Orthodoxy gone awry. And America is a good example of evangelicalism gone awry. Of course, those countries do not seem to believe in those theologies anymore, so maybe it’s not fair to blame them.

  • http://www.geneveith.com geneveith

    And the Netherlands is a good example of Calvinism gone awry. And France is a good example of Catholicism gone awry. And Russia is a good example of Orthodoxy gone awry. And America is a good example of evangelicalism gone awry. Of course, those countries do not seem to believe in those theologies anymore, so maybe it’s not fair to blame them.

  • http://www.geneveith.com geneveith

    And the Netherlands is a good example of Calvinism gone awry. And France is a good example of Catholicism gone awry. And Russia is a good example of Orthodoxy gone awry. And America is a good example of evangelicalism gone awry. Of course, those countries do not seem to believe in those theologies anymore, so maybe it’s not fair to blame them.

  • http://www.geneveith.com geneveith

    And the Netherlands is a good example of Calvinism gone awry. And France is a good example of Catholicism gone awry. And Russia is a good example of Orthodoxy gone awry. And America is a good example of evangelicalism gone awry. Of course, those countries do not seem to believe in those theologies anymore, so maybe it’s not fair to blame them.

  • http://snafman.blogspot.com Snafu

    tODD #25,
    Can you give those Swedish links? I can translate some of it for you. Maybe Bror too?

  • http://snafman.blogspot.com Snafu

    tODD #25,
    Can you give those Swedish links? I can translate some of it for you. Maybe Bror too?

  • http://snafman.blogspot.com Snafu

    Little offtopic:

    When it comes to Sweden in general, this news does not surprise me at all if it’s true. The country’s population consists nowadays some 20% of immigrants or their children who in very large part have come from Iraq, Afganistan, Kosovo, Somalia and other muslim countries. The results can be seen in cities like Malmö (especially the district Rosengård), where they have “no-go-areas”, the same kinds that the Anglican bishop Michael Nazir-Ali reported to exist also in England.

    There was a Christian campaign http://www.bevaraaktenskapet.nu/sida.asp?p=1155799224
    a few years ago in order to stop legalizing same-sex marriage (proposing instead some other arrangement that would secure rights to gay couples e.g. in inheritance issues). I remember one of the oragnizers, Stefan Gustavsson, said that the hostility against the campaign was overwhelming. For instance, The posters (“preserve the marriage” they said) were regularly smudged or teared down. You can check the look of the campaign on the website and see for yourself if it’s somehow provocative…

    Bad news for us Finns is that what happens in Sweden, usually happens in Finland in 20 years. But I’m holding my hopes up, there are some minor signs of a different future.

  • http://snafman.blogspot.com Snafu

    Little offtopic:

    When it comes to Sweden in general, this news does not surprise me at all if it’s true. The country’s population consists nowadays some 20% of immigrants or their children who in very large part have come from Iraq, Afganistan, Kosovo, Somalia and other muslim countries. The results can be seen in cities like Malmö (especially the district Rosengård), where they have “no-go-areas”, the same kinds that the Anglican bishop Michael Nazir-Ali reported to exist also in England.

    There was a Christian campaign http://www.bevaraaktenskapet.nu/sida.asp?p=1155799224
    a few years ago in order to stop legalizing same-sex marriage (proposing instead some other arrangement that would secure rights to gay couples e.g. in inheritance issues). I remember one of the oragnizers, Stefan Gustavsson, said that the hostility against the campaign was overwhelming. For instance, The posters (“preserve the marriage” they said) were regularly smudged or teared down. You can check the look of the campaign on the website and see for yourself if it’s somehow provocative…

    Bad news for us Finns is that what happens in Sweden, usually happens in Finland in 20 years. But I’m holding my hopes up, there are some minor signs of a different future.

  • http://snafman.blogspot.com Snafu

    I noticed now that the logical link between the immigrants etc. and the news-not-surprising me was missing. The link is of course the social democrat party’s views on ethics and ethnicity.

    Even though I am in my own context politically on the right, I’m all pro for some of the achievements of the Scandinavian countries (e.g. free university education) as long as they work. But the development of the social democracy’s ideals has long gone awfully wrong. Peter Stormare said once that it “has destroyed Sweden”.

  • http://snafman.blogspot.com Snafu

    I noticed now that the logical link between the immigrants etc. and the news-not-surprising me was missing. The link is of course the social democrat party’s views on ethics and ethnicity.

    Even though I am in my own context politically on the right, I’m all pro for some of the achievements of the Scandinavian countries (e.g. free university education) as long as they work. But the development of the social democracy’s ideals has long gone awfully wrong. Peter Stormare said once that it “has destroyed Sweden”.

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  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Snafu,
    Yes I could, but I spent all day yesterday finishing an edit, so I didn’t get back to this thread and it is probably dead for now.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Snafu,
    Yes I could, but I spent all day yesterday finishing an edit, so I didn’t get back to this thread and it is probably dead for now.

  • kerner

    Well said, Dr. Veith. And if I may add, Peter, Massachusettes is a good example of Congregationalist theology gone awry.

    Or maybe it isn’t the theologiews that have gone awry, but the people who are abandonning Christianity who are doing so.

  • kerner

    Well said, Dr. Veith. And if I may add, Peter, Massachusettes is a good example of Congregationalist theology gone awry.

    Or maybe it isn’t the theologiews that have gone awry, but the people who are abandonning Christianity who are doing so.

  • http://snafman.blogspot.com Snafu

    #34 Bror,
    Yea, it probably is dead. I should be faster, I always wake up in these threads too late.

  • http://snafman.blogspot.com Snafu

    #34 Bror,
    Yea, it probably is dead. I should be faster, I always wake up in these threads too late.

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